I am looking out for some digital equipment which can tell the ppm or percentage of moisture in oil, it should be cheap and should be able to use in fields. If it comes at a cost within 1000 US$, many people would be interested in having it.Yes it should detect moisture even if it is less than 50 ppm, the tolerable error will be 5 or evn 10% either way. But it should give result latest within 5 minutes. Karl Fischer is an accurate laboratory process , but takes more than 30 minutes in one sample and so is very cumbersome.
Someone should come forward to make one equipment based on change in dielectric constant of oil due to presence of moisture. So many experts are contributing to these message boards, will not someone help me out?

As far as I know there is products for this. Atleast almost. The products I know about measure Relative % saturation. The instruments can be programmed with curves for each known oil type to give calculate a ppm value. Suppliers are Hydac, Pall, Vaisala and probably others.

Take a look at this:

http://www.gesensing.com/products/mms3.htm?bc=bc_panametrics

Panametrics has been making dielectric moisture sensors for a lot of years. I don't know what the current pricing is, but it is portable.

As I said, the moisture meter should be prtable and at the same time should be cheap also, not crossing $ 1,000, all the products mentioned by you people are costing USD 4000 to 10,000.
Any other help please, it will certainly help thousands of industries in dveloping countries.

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As I said, the moisture meter should be prtable and at the same time should be cheap also, not crossing $ 1,000, all the products mentioned by you people are costing USD 4000 to 10,000.
Any other help please, it will certainly help thousands of industries in dveloping countries.

Why do you think your 'developing country' situation is special? The device you describe would be useful in every market, developed and developing. The technical and marketing departments of the above instrument companies would be very happy to build the exact device you describe if it were possible. The fact you can't buy one with the capabilities you want at the price point you desire should tell you all you need to know.

You have been educated on the current state of the art with portable digital moisture testing. You should appreciate the effort the responders to your post put out to do so.

I guess you need to get in touch with Kittywek )_ not sure if i spelled it right.

should be able to get your self just that

quote:

Originally posted by Prabhakar Agrawal:
As I said, the moisture meter should be prtable and at the same time should be cheap also, not crossing $ 1,000...

...and BTW, it should show real data from the stock market, be able to make good espresso on demand, and have a cable TV access...

Very typical and sarcastic remarks from so called oil experts!!!! I never expected such responses. I don't know what mistake i committed by asking to develop such a moisture meter which is handy, portable and is within a range of $1000.

Don't say , it is not possible.Prices of almost all the electronic products have come down many times. A good radio available at US$80 or US$90in the year 1940 is available at only $4 or $5, this is due to constant efforts put up by technologists and industrialists. A mobile phone available at US $300 or more in last decade is now available at only US$50.It is not that cheaper ones are less efficient, they are rather having more advanced features. So please don't laugh at me, my friends, if i am inviting scientists and technologists like you to develop a moisture meter for US $1000.It is possible, you will see it materializing in near future.

Still after lot of efforts by experts all over the world, many companies do not think it necessary to keep oil in their machines clean.Laser Particle Counter and moisture detectors available in the market are costly and beyond reach in the opinion of Industries top decision maker management.If they have to buy a machine for even million $ to increase production they will go for it.But they think that these oil testing instruments are useless as they will not increase production.

Just think, if these instruments are sold cheap as i say, may be based on some new technology, they may buy it and then they will test their oil regularly which will convince them to go for cleaning systems.

Mr Hughes amd Micetic!!! I always pay respect to your knowledge, so your remarks have hurt me more.I know what is Crackle test,also know Karl Fischer or Dean and Stark tests, so, please don't suggest Crackle test to me. If you don't have any idea, just appreciate and support my concern for some good cause.

Again I repeat, Industries all over the world need a portable equipment which can tell moisture in oil even upto 5ppm and is available around US$ 1,000. Golden opportunity for scientists and technologists to develop some new simple technology.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Prabhakar Agrawal,

Mr Agrawal

I agree in totality with you and a sure you will get it from the Brit compnay i mentioned, i am in process of having it out TLM kit.

let me get details and shall email the same to you - send me a email and i shall send you all details of that compnay. tycoonsindia@sify.com

I also would like to tell you a came across a LPC for 1.25 Lacs. lowest ever heard so far

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Don't say , it is not possible.Prices of almost all the electronic products have come down many times. A good radio available at US$80 or US$90in the year 1940 is available at only $4 or $5, this is due to constant efforts put up by technologists and industrialists. A mobile phone available at US $300 or more in last decade is now available at only US$50.It is not that cheaper ones are less efficient, they are rather having more advanced features. So please don't laugh at me, my friends, if i am inviting scientists and technologists like you to develop a moisture meter for US $1000.It is possible, you will see it materializing in near future.

Pardon me for having my head completely out of the sand and having a firm grip on reality. What do all the above items you refer to have in common?

They are mass produced by multiple companies and millions and millions of units per year are sold.

I can't believe there will be millions of portable digital moiture oil test units sold each and every year. The price of the items you talked about goes down based on competition and economy of scale. The development costs of the technology and purchase of capital equipment to produce the items can then be spread out amongst a very large number of units. The price is then more reflective of the variable costs of the material the unit is built from and the labor costs to produce the item. In small production runs, the development and capital costs have to be recovered in only a few units sold.

At this point, I am amused by your apparent lack of understanding of how the instrument markets have to operate. You seem to believe that thousands of units is a big number, and should result in low prices. When you come to the instrument company and promise sales of 10 million units a yeat for a period of five years, you will get the pricing and technology you have asked for.

Until then, I suggest you deal with the real world. Of course, you are free to spend as much of your time and money as you wish to develop your own portable digital moisture testing instrument. After you are done, you can sell it for any amount you wish.

BTW, I have worked with a person who had the idea to develop a portable digital instrument to identify the refrigerant in a system. He financed the entire effort out of his own pocket. He told me the cost to develop a working prototype turned out to be well over 2 million USD. He and his wife were both very successful MDs, so they did have the resources to finance the effort themselves.

The instrument never did function to the standard needed to make it useful to the average service person taking care of the refrigeration equipment. The cost also could not be brought down to the needed level to make it affordable for the average service person to justify the purchase.

The cost to bring a commercial version of the instrument to market was going to be in excess of 10 million USD. If you want to recover your development costs by selling 1000 units each year for 5 years, you would need to charge 2000 USD for each instrument in addition to the cost to manufacture, the cost of sales and marketing, and plus something else called profit (if you want to still be in business after year 1). If you finance the cost of instrument development, most banks will want their money back in less than 5 years.

Portable digital moisture meters at only USD 4000 seem like a very good price.

Misters, I hasten to inform you - that such portable analyzer is available, and except for definition of moisture in oil, gas, diesel it has still set of useful functions for the firms maintaining technics. Its cost $2200.
http://www.shatox.com/analyzer.html

For more info, pls write me.
mos@shatox.ru

quote:

Originally posted by Prabhakar Agrawal:
Very typical and sarcastic remarks from so called oil experts!!!! I never expected such responses....

Loosen up, Prabhakar. It was a joke. I sincerely apologize to you for my remark, after seeing how hurt you are by it. It was not intended to offend you. From where I came from, we have such or similar saying when someone expects too much for too little…considering current market values for similar things.

Prabhakar.

I have to apologize as well. Did not mean to hurt anyone. It is not always easy to see how informed users of this fourm are, and the crackle test is a good test, but as i now understand you are aware of that, and it does not help you out much.
I think Refrig guys posts explains a lot to why such instruments does not excist for that price. Another problem is that ie. Europe companies are happy to pay USD 4000,- for such equipment (if they need it), so why then sell for 1/4 if manufactores want to make money (like all do).

Friends,
This world is very big and only Europe does not represent the whole world.By putting a question or doubt on Noria board ,we expect people from every corner of the world to read it and try to give answer.

Price of a product varies from country to country, you can never say that an equipment for only $1000 is impossible to be available.China has made available numberless items at a cost which still seem impossible, our effort should be to try and try.

Just see, one gentleman has come up with an instrument for $2200 only, others will also come. Friends , don't teach me the simple economics of production, instead try to make things cheaper so that it is widely used for the conservation of oil and benefitting the entire mankind. I am not asking to sell at a loss, just try to develop new technology which gives handsome profit at even low prices.You are selling 1000 equipments, you will be selling 20,000 equipments, this is only an example.

Yeah, forget R&D efforts of EU and US and their products. They are all lousy and unreliable and expensive. The real leaders in innovation and new industrial revolution are in China, Russia, Pakistan and India. But unfortunately they don't know it yet. Therefore, keep that outcry going. They will eventually hear it… and flood the world with cheap instruments like they do with kids toys today. Patience is virtue.

Mr Micetic
Here we are diverting from the real issue,i am not trying to degrade the contribution of European countries in modern development. They have given us quality, durability, reliability and accuracy in whatsoever they developed.They are very sincere,honest and laborious. The whole world owes much to Europe and USA for what they did in last 300 years.So, let us stop that type of mud-slinging.

If we require an equipment which is not very accurate, not very sensitive and is much cheaper, should all of us not try to develop one. Suppose i have a hydraulic machine, for testing its oil time to time for viscosity, moisture and TAN, will i require much accuracy? If one ordinary Visgauge reports a viscosity of 67 CST, while the actual one found out in lab is 67.875 Cst, do i require knowing that accurately for this purpose.Same is with moisture,First i will crackle test the oil, if it does not show any moisture or very little moisture i will like to measure it with some digital equipment, not by Karl Fischer Equipment. If Karl Fischer accurately tells that moisture is 18 ppm (0.0018%) and the digital equipment roughly tells it to be even 40ppm, it will not make any difference to my cause. Karl Fischer takes about half an hour for testing one sample, this equipment will take a few minutes.

I think , you people misunderstood me. If you have any such equipment in your knowledge, tell us, otherwise please don't waste your time nad energy to make us understand the cost economics, mass scale production economics.If such an equipment is developed, all the industries world-over having some hydraulic machines will easily buy it, they will not postpone the decision of buying.It will be beneficial for rich countries as well as developing countries.

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Just see, one gentleman has come up with an instrument for $2200 only, others will also come. Friends , don't teach me the simple economics of production, instead try to make things cheaper so that it is widely used for the conservation of oil and benefitting the entire mankind.

Prabhakar,

Did you actually see what the gentleman's USD 2200 instrument does for testing moisture? It uses a color change indicating paste. Yes, that is a truly 'digital' device - you have to use fingers to make it work.

Your crusade to never change oil, ever, in a diesel engine has run into a few technical snags that don't look too easy to overcome. No one seems willing or able to give you the simple answers you desire to a very complicated issue.

I don't know who you think will develop an instrument that does the things that you want that will not consider the economics. You would be foolish to ignore this factor. Your appeal to ignore economics in order to save mankind does not help anyone think you are working from a rational point of view. Your failure to listen to reasonable explanations to your other questions in this forum (when Bob K asked you a simple question you chose not to answer) also does not seem to be entirely rational.

You want to dictate to the industry how it should change it's behavior - without listening to why your idea may not be better than what it does now. Your failure to listen to advice from experts will not advance your cause. You seem to only want to hear answers that conform to advancing your crusade.

Maybe one day your idea will actually become possible, but only if it makes sense with all factors cosidered - technology, environment and economics. At this point, as you must realize, you are missing some very big pieces. They are not out there already developed just waiting for someone like you to come along and put them together - hard work must be invested in developing the missing pieces. I suggest you focus on this issue rather than browbeat internet forums to 'discover' the missing pieces you need.

I'm done with you until you seem to be coming from a reasonable point of view.

quote:

Originally posted by Prabhakar Agrawal:
..If we require an equipment which is not very accurate, not very sensitive and is much cheaper, should all of us not try to develop one...

Absolutely disagree. It may only be good idea to snake oil salesmen. I don't know how things work in India, but I know that the rest of the world bases the reliability programs on tracking reliable and as much accurate results of analysis as possible. Certainly not on the results approximations. It is obvious that both of us have diametrically opposite view about the reliability and testing issues, and therefore, I see no point in further continuing this discussion.