Not sure if any of you are members over at bobistheoilguy, but for the last 2 years we've seen a trend of Mobil 1 showing significantly higher Fe wear then other oils, even low cost dino oils.
Different theories about it discussed have ranged from valvetrain wear (Amsoil rep of course) to a chemical interaction from Fe that is actually contained in the compound of Mobil 1. I'll post the exact comments used from the chemist on the board. Either way, it's annoying and I've since decided to change to another oil in case it is valvetrain wear.
quote:
M1 and many oils start off with a certain level of Fe compound in their formulations.
The anti-wear compounds react with the iron and steel to form ferrous-phospates, ferrous-borates, etc. Some of the ferrous (iron) compounds are liberated into oil when separated from the surfacial film
Anti-friction, sometimes called lubricity, is defined as the ability of a lubricant to reduce friction, other than by its purely viscous properties. Anti-friction additives reduce friction below that of the base oil alone under conditions of boundary lubrication. The additives are adsorbed on, or react with the metal surface or its oxide to form monolayers of low shear strength material. The compounds are long chain (greater than 12 carbon atoms), alcohols, amines, and fatty acids. A classic example is oleic acid reacting with iron oxide to form a film of the iron oleate soap. The low shear strength of the soap film causes the low friction.
An observed quality of M1 is its ability to produce bhp (compared to non ester based oils) also lack of ability to take heat away from certain components. My guess is that it could be a spin off from "Supersyn" chemistry. The high fe levels cannot be directly linked to wear from the evidence of UOAs and unlikely to be factory fill if there was a direct link to high wear.
I'm not sure either if wear can be determined via UOA's all the time. Same can be said with Redline.
I'm sure Mobil chemists know what they are doing. I sometimes think that because they are competing with other Group III oils, this puts them at a disadvantage and they then have to cut corners somewhere....
I'm sure the Fe/valvetrain wear is fine for most specifications and users, but for many obsessed perfectionists like myself and other BITOG members, we want the lowest wear possible. Mobil 1 doesn't seem to satisfy.
On what basis are you calculating wear from UOAs? and how do you know its valvetrain wear?and what is causing this valvetrain wear?
I agree with your sentiments re "only the best will do" but too many unanswered questions re UOAs with RL and M1 which creates speculation but not evidence that High fe = wear in the case of M1.
MG, I'm not 100% sure it is valvetrain wear, but if you go to bobistheoilguy.com, numerous oil analysis reports show Mobil 1 with much higher Fe wear then universal averages and other oils. No one knows where the Fe is comming from. Some said it's not wear, as I posted above, but the more I read about it, it does seem like some type of wear. Their have been cases in which oils were run side by side under the same conditions. Mobil 1 showed 40ppm of Fe wear, then when using a competitor, the wear dropped to 16ppm. In general, we've seen alot of reports with Fe elevated to some degree. Again though, it might not be Fe wear.
MG, could very well be. In talking with two labs, Oil analyzers and Blackstone labs, they said that Fe wear in the 20's is very low, yet to most on BITOG, that is high. I've seen some labs state that Fe is high when it's over 150ppm. So who knows really....
Again speculation Dino tends to lay down varnish and sludge. What possible "wear" metals are locked up in these deposits.
Motul 300V does warn against road use. This is a high diester/ester oil with all the benefits downside just appears to be cost, but race situations are constant high heat. Maybe just use less anti corrosion or the base oil may cause a problem when dealing with circumstances that can arise on road car if not fully warmed each outing. The wear maybe insignificant but may cause a small spike.
Good points MGBV8. I'm running Mobil 1 Extended Performance now, which has 50% more SuperSyn PAO in it, and my car runs better then ever. I don't know what the answer is with the Fe levels, but your points are well taken and could be right. Oils are becomming increasingly complex compared to days past, when alot of ZDDP was the primary additive. Now we have Boron and Moly and even Sodium used as anti-wear additives. I think all of this makes it tough to really judge wear metals via UOA's at times. Redline has an excellent reputation, but on BITOG, it's reputation is poor.
If we assume it is valvetrain wear and M1 are not relying on esters perhaps this is a weakness esp. when ZDDP is reduced, as on their own Dino GIII and esters being better than PAO. Castrol have perhaps resolved the "problem" with an ester derived from PAO. Silkolene pro is a 20% ester PAO oil and an interesting UOA on BITOG.
I think it is either a result of the type boron used turning into Iron Sulphate once plated and is picked up in analysis as iron . So some from wear , some from the additives or it could be the AN's are not doing as well as an ester would and or a combo of both .
Either way it's " iron " nothing to sweat about since 10-15ppm is nothing that will make or break an engine over the course of 200k miles although I have not seen elevated FE in my reports . I have since switched brands and enjoy zero PB at 5k miles vs 4-6ppm at same miles using the Mobil . The new oil of choice is also 2 centistrokes thicker and uses ester though .
The Mobil oil offers rock solid shear stability , is easy to obtain and keeps engines very clean . It might not have the inherent lubricity of other oils but it sure has the anti-wear " EP version " .
What more could a guy want except maybe some 5.50 per quart Synergyn or high end Fuchs/Silkolene ?
Or , the Valvoline Synpower additive has proven to reduce FE when in many oils and engines by 50% time after time .... even with Amsoil .
To produce corrosion the engine will also need to have an exposed surface that is not protected by oil film or a build up of varnish. An ester film or mineral oil for varnish should give good protection but M1 !
If left standing and the engine heats up during the day and cools down at night. The cooling process could condense water vapor in the engine.
As you put miles on engines, do you have to start adding oil between oil changes. How long between oil changes? If you take oil sample after 3K miles has iron increased?
