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6467


Toyota Sludge V-6 Engine

Frank Miller co -inv


  10/6/2001 10:59:36 AM

This problem is not isolated to just the Toyota V-6, it effects BMW, Chrysler, Lexus
it's not caused by oil and oil can't fix the problem.Don't use solvents to try and clean sludge, we have reports of engine seizing up, internal seal failures.www.auto-rx.com

 


6474

RE: Toyota Sludge V-6 Engine



  10/9/2001 12:15:23 AM

What then Frank, is the cause of this very common Toyota problem?

 

6561

RE: RE: Toyota Sludge V-6 Engine


james taylor

  10/2001 8:16:30 PM

i dont know

 




9185

RE: RE: RE: Toyota Sludge V-6 Engine



Charlene Blake


  3/18/2003 2:09:37 PM

As owners continue to contact me in frustration about the current ENGINE OIL SLUDGE customer support program at Toyota, I see some interesting trends. I am wondering if others can come forward to confirm.

First, there is a NATIONAL backorder of pistons and piston rings used in the sludge repair program. I have noted that one owner had to wait SIX WEEKS for these parts to come in. Another owner was told by her service manager that there is a "problem with getting supplies....the piston rings are on backorder."

This begs the question....WHY, if there are so few sludge victims out there, are the parts not available. I recall when Iwas involved in the Chrysler ABS defect debacle that the ABS parts were also on NATIONAL BACKORDER for months. Is Toyota actually being overwhelmed with repair need? Are these part delays directly related to the incidence of sludge cases? Perhaps some technicians will comment?

Now, what about the fouling of the emissions control components? Why are so many OXYGEN SENSORS going bad? Don't these components affect the air/fuel ratio in the vehicle? Why are CATALYTIC CONVERTERS going bad after sludge repairs? Why is it that so many fuel system related components are being replaced just before the onset of sludge? Spark plug are fouling. Owners report misfiring and poor engine performance. Some owners are reporting failed state emissions tests.

I have noted in the past the trend in sludge occurrence based on model year. I have noted that the 2000 vehicle...Sienna, Camry, etc., seems to be showing the earliest sludge. Are these owners just even worse at maintaining their vehicles, do you think? I think that notion is absurd! The 1999 model are showing the sludge around 36,000-40,000miles. The 2000 models show it much sooner.....25,000-36,000 miles. There are scores of vehicles which had the problem at UNDER 20,000 miles on the vehicle. This refutes Mike Michels', spokesperson at Toyota, claim that owners are not changing their oil for 20,000-30,000 miles! What a joke! He is the same fellow who says that Toyota is "unaware of engine oil sludge in vehicles which have been properly maintained."

There are a some owners who had sludge develop in their Sienna vehices within the first year of ownership and with less than 15,000 miles on the vehicle. Tell me what Mr. Michels has to say about those cases!

I see a trend on oil analysis for a greatly reduced initial oil viscosity even with less than 1,600 miles on the engine oil. When the engine oil gets closer to the outside limit of the owner's manual recommended oil change interval, the oil shows maximum nitration and almost equal oxidation. The oil is out of grade. It is essentially TOO THIN. Is this the precursor to SLUDGE development? Is there great heat and engine wear as the oil loses its lubrication effectiveness so early in the life of the oil????? Is the resulting high heat effectively COOKING THE OIL within?

An EXXON lubrication specialist mentioned "cold spots" where the acids can accumulate. Is there such an area within the oil passages of these vehicles? If so, would it first appear as VARNISH and baked on oil and later as SLUDGE if the condition is not corrected? Where might this varnish first appear? What would it look like?

Please, technicians and oil specialists, please chime in. We need a good, analytical discussion as we had a Edmund's before I the discussion was abruptly CLOSED.

Let's examine the recent reports of engine compartment fires after the affected engines throw a rod through the block. First of all, is it the thick sludge or even the precursor condition of reduced viscosity, fuel-contamined oil that results in the engine rod being thrown? THEN, what apsect of this condition would cause a CATASTROPHIC FIRE in the engine compartment? I have recently read such reports and I would like to know the connection.

Thank you for your CONSTRUCTIVE addition to this discussion from a technical, and analytical perspective. If you choose to use personal attacks in this discussion, I will forward them to the site maintainer for removal. Opposing technical views are welcome.

Charlene Blake
cblake@erols.com





9186

RE: RE: Toyota Sludge V-6 Engine


Charlene Blake

  3/18/2003 2:10:04 PM

  As owners continue to contact me in frustration about the current ENGINE OIL SLUDGE customer support program at Toyota, I see some interesting trends. I am wondering if others can come forward to confirm.

First, there is a NATIONAL backorder of pistons and piston rings used in the sludge repair program. I have noted that one owner had to wait SIX WEEKS for these parts to come in. Another owner was told by her service manager that there is a "problem with getting supplies....the piston rings are on backorder."

This begs the question....WHY, if there are so few sludge victims out there, are the parts not available. I recall when Iwas involved in the Chrysler ABS defect debacle that the ABS parts were also on NATIONAL BACKORDER for months. Is Toyota actually being overwhelmed with repair need? Are these part delays directly related to the incidence of sludge cases? Perhaps some technicians will comment?

Now, what about the fouling of the emissions control components? Why are so many OXYGEN SENSORS going bad? Don't these components affect the air/fuel ratio in the vehicle? Why are CATALYTIC CONVERTERS going bad after sludge repairs? Why is it that so many fuel system related components are being replaced just before the onset of sludge? Spark plug are fouling. Owners report misfiring and poor engine performance. Some owners are reporting failed state emissions tests.

I have noted in the past the trend in sludge occurrence based on model year. I have noted that the 2000 vehicle...Sienna, Camry, etc., seems to be showing the earliest sludge. Are these owners just even worse at maintaining their vehicles, do you think? I think that notion is absurd! The 1999 model are showing the sludge around 36,000-40,000miles. The 2000 models show it much sooner.....25,000-36,000 miles. There are scores of vehicles which had the problem at UNDER 20,000 miles on the vehicle. This refutes Mike Michels', spokesperson at Toyota, claim that owners are not changing their oil for 20,000-30,000 miles! What a joke! He is the same fellow who says that Toyota is "unaware of engine oil sludge in vehicles which have been properly maintained."

There are a some owners who had sludge develop in their Sienna vehices within the first year of ownership and with less than 15,000 miles on the vehicle. Tell me what Mr. Michels has to say about those cases!

I see a trend on oil analysis for a greatly reduced initial oil viscosity even with less than 1,600 miles on the engine oil. When the engine oil gets closer to the outside limit of the owner's manual recommended oil change interval, the oil shows maximum nitration and almost equal oxidation. The oil is out of grade. It is essentially TOO THIN. Is this the precursor to SLUDGE development? Is there great heat and engine wear as the oil loses its lubrication effectiveness so early in the life of the oil????? Is the resulting high heat effectively COOKING THE OIL within?

An EXXON lubrication specialist mentioned "cold spots" where the acids can accumulate. Is there such an area within the oil passages of these vehicles? If so, would it first appear as VARNISH and baked on oil and later as SLUDGE if the condition is not corrected? Where might this varnish first appear? What would it look like?

Please, technicians and oil specialists, please chime in. We need a good, analytical discussion as we had a Edmund's before I the discussion was abruptly CLOSED.

Let's examine the recent reports of engine compartment fires after the affected engines throw a rod through the block. First of all, is it the thick sludge or even the precursor condition of reduced viscosity, fuel-contamined oil that results in the engine rod being thrown? THEN, what apsect of this condition would cause a CATASTROPHIC FIRE in the engine compartment? I have recently read such reports and I would like to know the connection.

Thank you for your CONSTRUCTIVE addition to this discussion from a technical, and analytical perspective. If you choose to use personal attacks in this discussion, I will forward them to the site maintainer for removal. Opposing technical views are welcome.

Charlene Blake
cblake@erols.com


9187
RE: Toyota Sludge V-6 Engine
Charlene Blake

  3/18/2003 2:10:22 PM



As owners continue to contact me in frustration about the current ENGINE OIL SLUDGE customer support program at Toyota, I see some interesting trends. I am wondering if others can come forward to confirm.

First, there is a NATIONAL backorder of pistons and piston rings used in the sludge repair program. I have noted that one owner had to wait SIX WEEKS for these parts to come in. Another owner was told by her service manager that there is a "problem with getting supplies....the piston rings are on backorder."

This begs the question....WHY, if there are so few sludge victims out there, are the parts not available. I recall when Iwas involved in the Chrysler ABS defect debacle that the ABS parts were also on NATIONAL BACKORDER for months. Is Toyota actually being overwhelmed with repair need? Are these part delays directly related to the incidence of sludge cases? Perhaps some technicians will comment?

Now, what about the fouling of the emissions control components? Why are so many OXYGEN SENSORS going bad? Don't these components affect the air/fuel ratio in the vehicle? Why are CATALYTIC CONVERTERS going bad after sludge repairs? Why is it that so many fuel system related components are being replaced just before the onset of sludge? Spark plug are fouling. Owners report misfiring and poor engine performance. Some owners are reporting failed state emissions tests.

I have noted in the past the trend in sludge occurrence based on model year. I have noted that the 2000 vehicle...Sienna, Camry, etc., seems to be showing the earliest sludge. Are these owners just even worse at maintaining their vehicles, do you think? I think that notion is absurd! The 1999 model are showing the sludge around 36,000-40,000miles. The 2000 models show it much sooner.....25,000-36,000 miles. There are scores of vehicles which had the problem at UNDER 20,000 miles on the vehicle. This refutes Mike Michels', spokesperson at Toyota, claim that owners are not changing their oil for 20,000-30,000 miles! What a joke! He is the same fellow who says that Toyota is "unaware of engine oil sludge in vehicles which have been properly maintained."

There are a some owners who had sludge develop in their Sienna vehices within the first year of ownership and with less than 15,000 miles on the vehicle. Tell me what Mr. Michels has to say about those cases!

I see a trend on oil analysis for a greatly reduced initial oil viscosity even with less than 1,600 miles on the engine oil. When the engine oil gets closer to the outside limit of the owner's manual recommended oil change interval, the oil shows maximum nitration and almost equal oxidation. The oil is out of grade. It is essentially TOO THIN. Is this the precursor to SLUDGE development? Is there great heat and engine wear as the oil loses its lubrication effectiveness so early in the life of the oil????? Is the resulting high heat effectively COOKING THE OIL within?

An EXXON lubrication specialist mentioned "cold spots" where the acids can accumulate. Is there such an area within the oil passages of these vehicles? If so, would it first appear as VARNISH and baked on oil and later as SLUDGE if the condition is not corrected? Where might this varnish first appear? What would it look like?

Please, technicians and oil specialists, please chime in. We need a good, analytical discussion as we had a Edmund's before I the discussion was abruptly CLOSED.

Let's examine the recent reports of engine compartment fires after the affected engines throw a rod through the block. First of all, is it the thick sludge or even the precursor condition of reduced viscosity, fuel-contamined oil that results in the engine rod being thrown? THEN, what apsect of this condition would cause a CATASTROPHIC FIRE in the engine compartment? I have recently read such reports and I would like to know the connection.

Thank you for your CONSTRUCTIVE addition to this discussion from a technical, and analytical perspective. If you choose to use personal attacks in this discussion, I will forward them to the site maintainer for removal. Opposing technical views are welcome.

Charlene Blake
cblake@erols.com



10859

Toyota Sludge V-6 Engine

Bob Calvary


  12/8/2003 1:02:29 PM



I have a 2001 Camry LE 3.0 with 48,000 miles on it. I have ALWAYS changed the oil at 3,000 miles. 3 days ago I had drained the oil and when I started to pour the new oil into the motor I noticed a hard crusty film about 1/16" to 3/32" thick inside the valve cover oil opening. I scrapped it off and was careful not to let any get into the engine but the space where the oil flows into the engine was restricted so much that the oil drained slowly. I was sure it was part of the sludge problem but after seeing the valve cover removed (by Toyota) it looked like a new engine with my own eyes I wanted to let others know what the tech said. Where you pour the oil into the car is slightly cupped and a small amount of oil can't get into the engine so it sets there and cooks with the high temperature and forms the carbon crust. This will not hurt the engine because it is separated. I was please to find I didn't have the sludge problem but I want to let others know so they will not make the same mistake I did. bcalvary@tampabay.rr.com

 


11017


RE: Toyota Sludge V-6 Engine

John Petty


  1/3/2004 11:04:42 AM



 
We have a 2000 Sienna that had sludge problems and Toyota fixed the engine. But just 30,000 miles later the engine blows and they tell me that a piston broke and that that sometimes just happens. They also said that they did not replace any parts in the engine but just cleaned it out. Could the sludge from before caused that. No engine light ever came on. The only indicator was the oil light for a few miles. When it came on I pulled over and checked the oil and it was perfect. We have reciepts for every oil change and it was done regular.



11025


RE: Toyota Sludge V-6 Engine

Kevin Chinery



  1/5/2004 5:38:08 PM



MY 99 Camry just blew its engine, regular oil changes and only 51K miles on it!

 

"Toyota Owners Unite for Resolution"

http://www.petitiononline.com/TMC2003/petition.html

[This message was edited by Charlene Blake on Tue March 16 2004 at 10:49 PM.]
 
Posts: 31 | Location: Vienna, VA, USA | Registered: Tue March 16 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Where to find information on the Toyota engine sludge problem:

www.toyota.com

Here you can find announcement of sludge program, copy of the letter that was to be sent to 3.3 million owners, and acknowledgement by Toyota that this is just an issue with two specific Toyota engine designs. Toyota says it is not a design problem, but an owner maintenance issue, yet limits the policy to two specific engines over a given range of time.

www.AERA.org

The information on this site is not readily available except to mechanics, however, one of their announcements addresses the problem. In this announcement they discuss the problem of sludge in properly maintained engines (something that Toyota says is an impossibility).

www.nhtsa.gov

This government-run web site includes owners’ report of sludge engine failures by year and by auto make and model. Search under “Problems and Issues” heading. NHTSA opened an investigation into the sludge problem in 2002 but closed the investigation in a matter of a few months because of Toyota’s announcement of the sludge policy.

MSN Autos site:
www.autos.msn.com/research/vip/reviews.aspx?modelid=9448&trimid=-1&src=VIP&tab=4

The above link is for the Avalon, but all the models covered by the sludge policy are reported to have significant engine problems. These ratings are based on reports from independent garages (not ones that are manufacturer affiliated) so they give an unbiased picture of problems that these garages see in vehicles.

www.yotarepair.com

A former Toyota mechanic acknowledges the problem. (this site dedicated to Toyota’s even has a “Sludge Zone”

www.autonews.com

AutoNews and several other publications included the announcement of the sludge problem in February and April 2002. Several publications had subsequent announcements.

www.autosafety.org

See complaints (all since AFTER the announcement of the sludge policy) on Toyota engines. Also has link to Auto News article

www.petitiononline.com/TMC2003/petition.html

As of this writing, over 375 signatures of owners who have experienced sludge and are dissatisfied with Toyotas response to their problem.

www.google.com

Do a web search for “Toyota Engine Sludge” and you find numerous reports of engine sludge in Toyota’s.

www.toyotatechs.com

View from a garage that specializes in Toyotas.

www.edmunds.com

See discussion of engine sludge on this forum, including one by Toyota rep (tmsusa1).

www.corolland.com

Includes discussion of sludge problem.

Numerous other websites with sludge reports include:

www.rateitall.com
www.toyotaownersclub.com
www.lexusownersclub.com
Toyota Owners Unite for Resolution web site
www.complaints.com
www.carsurvey.org
www.carreview.com
www.talkaboutautos.com
www.ripoffreport.com
www.realcaraudio.com
www.toyota-automotive-store.com
www.thecomplaintstation.com
www.toyonda.com
www.oilanalysis.com
www.toyotaworld.com

http://www.petitiononline.com/TMC2003/petition.html

"Toyota Owners Unite for Resolution"

"Toyota Owners Unite for Resolution"
 
Posts: 31 | Location: Vienna, VA, USA | Registered: Tue March 16 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I'm not denying that the engine is hard on oil, but with short intervals and good oil they seem to do fine. It is, however a particularly poor canidate for brand "x" bulk oil, or quicky-lube places (the wrong oil or not changing the filter would really screw you on a sludge prone engine).

A decent Group II+ oil like Chevron Supreme or Pennzoil changed at 3k would be pretty safe, though I personally would want to do at least occasional oil analysis too. For a little extra piece of mind, running a $4-5/qt Group IV or PAO synthetic wouldn't be a bad plan either. Nothing wrong with the AutoRX suggestion also.

I wonder whether a colder t-stat, different fan thermal switch, or an oil cooler would help any...but since the problem seems relatively minor it probably isn't worth it.



I did find the comment about the person whose engine died from lack of pressure after the oil warning light came on amusing. One would think that they would have known that the Service Engine Soon/MIL light has utterly no connection to mechanically conditions such as overheating or low oil pressure!


I really don't want to seem like I'm bashing amsoil, but I wonder if since this engine has a historty of the problem, the amsoil warantee wouldn't apply?
 
Posts: 103 | Registered: Tue February 10 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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The problem here is simple, and Toyota has identified it. It is simply owners who do not use good oils and go too long between changes.

Sludge is ONLY formed when using PETROLEUM oils. At high heat, petroleum oil forms sludge.

Solution? Use ONLY a PREMIUM 100% synthetic Oil. No more sludge.

As far as the other ideas suggested like changing to a cooler thermostat, etc. DON'T DO IT!! That engine and computer is designed to run at a certain temperature. And, putting in a cooler thermostat can actually cause your engine to run hotter, just like having no thermostat.

A thermostat is designed to keep the coolant in the radiator for a certain period of time. Then at the desired temp it opens and the coolant flows. Opening too soon due to a lower temperature can cause the coolant to flow out too quickly and not have the time in front of the airflow needed to cool.

Every engine is designed to run at a specific temperature.
 
Posts: 4 | Registered: Sun December 24 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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The solution is Redline Oil from the day after the engine is broken in.
 
Posts: 358 | Location: Detroit, Michigan | Registered: Thu January 08 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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There is no real solution to the Toyota engine oil sludge problem. It does not matter when you change your oil or what kind of oil you use (even synthetic), you cannot guarantee that you will not develop Toyota engine oil sludge. This is documented well by Toyota owner experiences. Some would like you to believe that Toyota owners aren't telling the truth; their accounts are accurate.

Please read the Toyota owner accounts at "Toyota Owners Unite for Resolution: Engine Oil Sludge" at http://www.petitiononline.com/TMC2003/petition.html.

Engine oil analyses are important in uncovering what is happening in these engines. The TBN is going below 2 with 5,000 mile oil changes. The TBN is below 3 even with 3,000 mile oil changes. The viscosity is reduced with as little as 3,000 miles on the oil. There is high silicon levels on each oil analysis.

The oil is designated "Abnormal Lubricant Condition." All this in a 1999 Toyota Sienna, currently with roughly 70,000 miles on it.

So what is really going on in these engines? More importantly, why are we being blamed? This is unacceptable.

*************************************


"Toyota Owners Unite for Resolution"
 
Posts: 31 | Location: Vienna, VA, USA | Registered: Tue March 16 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Charlene,

That is a bunch of crap! I am not pro-Toyota, but engine oil sludge is an OIL problem, not an engine problem. That is SCIENCE, not opinion. Just look at the total number of Toyota engines produced, and then the number with this alleged problem. It is a very SMALL percentage. I am a mechanic with a racing and engineering background. I can tell you for an absolute fact, oil sludge is an oil problem. SYNTHETIC oil CANNOT form sludge unless superheated way beyond the temp a street car can be heated. If you use a PREMIUM SYNTHETIC OIL of the proper viscosity, and change as required, You WILL NOT get sludge. That's a fact.
 
Posts: 4 | Registered: Sun December 24 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Steve, mechanic or not, the fact is that there are Toyota owners who DID have engines develop sludge after using synthetic oils. In addition, Toyota owners who changed their oil every 3,000 miles have also had sludge develop in their engines. I am not sure why you would be compelled to deny what is fact.

I see that you cite a "small" number of occurrences. Are you referring to the number that Toyota gave to the public? Why do you think this is accurate? A Toyota executive says that Toyota counts those who have formally notified it...e.g. letter written.

Do you suppose all the sludge victims have written to formally notify Toyota? Before the CSP, Toyota blamed countless owners and encouraged them to trade in their sludged vehicles quickly. Do you think they wrote to Toyota? Why hasn't Toyota updated the number of sludge victims? There are over 1600+ owners who have found my rather obscurely-located online petition since 2003...one full year after the implementation of the CSP. Has Toyota counted these individuals? What is the current number anyway? Do you suppose Toyota will tell us? Do you think anyone is overseeing this count?

I am sure that Toyota's mantra is "small" just like it's mantra is "this is an owner maintenance issue." I will tell you, Steve, the Toyota owners think there is much more to this problem and they are not happy about the "Blame Game" being played by TMC!

I believe you are right when you say that sludge is an oil issue. However, you have not taken into consideration the effect of these engines on that oil. You have not allowed for the possibility of a defect that hastens the wear of the oil. This is where I believe your theory is flawed.

I doubt I am alone....

Charlene Blake
cblake@erols.com
Toyota Owners Unite for Resolution
http://www.petitiononline.com/TMC2003/petition.html


"Toyota Owners Unite for Resolution"
 
Posts: 31 | Location: Vienna, VA, USA | Registered: Tue March 16 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Don't know anything about the Toyota problem and can't say I want to. Smile I don't work on them. However, as a life long mechanic and also a lubricant salesman I can tell you that it's not all the oils fault. I have seen numerous engine designs over the years that are very hard on oil. Even the tried and true GM 5.7L 350 small block had it's problems. At one time I owned a 1988 G30 cube van with this engine and found that deposit's were horrible in this engine around the EGR port in the head even with synthetic oil. The first time I did valve cover gaskets in it I found close to a 1 inch thick solid mass of crud around the EGR port area of the head. It was just prone to happen, it's a hot spot. It's not just Toyota and it's not just the oil used, it's a design flaw.


Michael Bialecki
Texas Refinery Corp.
www.trclubricants.com
 
Posts: 215 | Location: PA. USA | Registered: Mon September 18 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Update to the Toyota "problem". Well, Toyota more or less now admits there is a problem because they are folding over to a class action lawsuit.

http://www.oilgelsettlement.com./

The Court settlement:
http://www.oilgelsettlement.com./settlement.pdf

Paper to stick in your glove box:
http://www.oilgelsettlement.com./glove_box.pdf


Michael Bialecki
Texas Refinery Corp.
www.trclubricants.com
 
Posts: 215 | Location: PA. USA | Registered: Mon September 18 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I see this tread quit often. I've had many toyota's and I believe this sludge problem goes futher than just Toyota. It's just toyota's problem seems to be worst. All my vehicle have gone over 100K and none has had any oil issues. The big problem with dino oil is sludge in the form of water. Most people do not warm up their vehicles enough to burn this water out which turns into sludge. To alleviate this problem, one can change over to a synthetic of a PAO package. This is what I use along with Group III synthetics and never had a sludge issure. Need to remember, synthetic don't mix with water and has a higher detergent package. Too many of us read the manual and do as they say about oil changes but, don't drive in the manner your instructed to. I see this same problem with automatic transmission except their problem is from heat. Dino oil starts to break down at 250 degrees and seperates and that's the discoloration you see in automatic transmission fluid.
 
Posts: 4 | Location: Redmond, | Registered: Thu February 19 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Charlene Blake:
Steve, mechanic or not, the fact is that there are Toyota owners who DID have engines develop sludge after using synthetic oils. In addition, Toyota owners who changed their oil every 3,000 miles have also had sludge develop in their engines. I am not sure why you would be compelled to deny what is fact.

I see that you cite a "small" number of occurrences. Are you referring to the number that Toyota gave to the public? Why do you think this is accurate? A Toyota executive says that Toyota counts those who have formally notified it...e.g. letter written.

Do you suppose all the sludge victims have written to formally notify Toyota? Before the CSP, Toyota blamed countless owners and encouraged them to trade in their sludged vehicles quickly. Do you think they wrote to Toyota? Why hasn't Toyota updated the number of sludge victims? There are over 1600+ owners who have found my rather obscurely-located online petition since 2003...one full year after the implementation of the CSP. Has Toyota counted these individuals? What is the current number anyway? Do you suppose Toyota will tell us? Do you think anyone is overseeing this count?

I am sure that Toyota's mantra is "small" just like it's mantra is "this is an owner maintenance issue." I will tell you, Steve, the Toyota owners think there is much more to this problem and they are not happy about the "Blame Game" being played by TMC!

I believe you are right when you say that sludge is an oil issue. However, you have not taken into consideration the effect of these engines on that oil. You have not allowed for the possibility of a defect that hastens the wear of the oil. This is where I believe your theory is flawed.

I doubt I am alone....

Charlene Blake
cblake@erols.com
Toyota Owners Unite for Resolution
http://www.petitiononline.com/TMC2003/petition.html
 
Posts: 2 | Registered: Thu January 25 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I quoted Charlene Blake's post, above, and now would like to comment on it and others by the same author in this forum:

Much of these posts appear to be pure spin. Statements made are very clearly grossly exaggerated, and many alleged "facts" are misrepresented.

First question needing to be addressed is "Why is Toyota being singled out and badmouthed over any other carmaker?"
Are there no other auto manufacturers in this world?
Is Toyota the only auto manufacturer guilty of the sins alleged?
Why (and how) is Toyota any different than any of the the others?

Next question.
Why has the author chosen to spam these
same messages in hundreds of other sites on the net?

Next question.
A claim is made that there are 1600 or so names in a petition (not "obscurely located" BTW--it is clearly referenced in the hundreds of spammed messages noted in the previous question!)
Why too are there so many empty spaces which comprise the "1600" names? (empty spaces are counted in the total, but no names shown!) Over half the total spaces are "voided" for some reason--Why? (A little convenient "editing" perhaps?)

Next question.
Are we considered so naive as to believe that all cases of sludge are the fault of Toyota and no other cause? Has any effort ever been made to confirm even one of the stories we are supposed to blindly accept as gospel?

Next question.
Is anyone "overseeing" the veracity and integrity of the information we are being told to accept as gospel in the post above?

Next question.
Has any real live defect ever been discovered in the engines which are accused of being defective?

Next question.
Is Toyota the only carmaker to supposedly have a sludge issue? If there are others, which are the worst?

More questions can be and should be asked of this prolific poster (spammer?), but if history is any indication, none will ever be answered by the author for rather obvious reasons!
(It would mean having to be truthful--something the author is evidently incapable of!)
 
Posts: 2 | Registered: Thu January 25 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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One must laugh at the pathetic attempts by Charlene Blake to garner attention to these bizzare claims of malfeasance by automakers.
It clearly smacks of a neurotic obsession.
When challenged as to authenticity of these outragious allegations, she responds with diversion tactics such as this forum, and launches irrational tirades about how we are being mistreated by those who disagree with her rants.
One of her favourite expressions...."am not on trial here or elsewhere", is laughable.
Charlene completely ignores the reality re what she puts into the public view is always subject to challenge, and makes her own rules..."NO ONE CAN CHALLENGE ME BECAUSE I'M NOT ON TRIAL!!"
Well Charlene, in a sense YOU aren't on trial, but what you say publicly is on trial, and always will be.
No one, not even the inscrutable (???) Charlene Blake, can insist everyone bow down before her and accept what she says without question.
Especially when what Charlene claims is so outragious, so manipulative, so misleading, so full of untruths, so full of imagery, inference, and innuendo, as to be crying out for challenge.
Charlene Blake may not be on trial, but her campaign of lies certainly is.
And she has no right to suggest otherwise!!
When put to the test of truth, integrity, and rational objectivity, Charlene Blake's claims fail miserably.
Charlene, you have failed, and your failure to admit your failure is unquestionably your biggest failure of all!!
 
Posts: 1 | Registered: Mon April 16 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Sludge is a simple biproduct of oil that cools and is heated over and over. A used engine without it would be right.


Toyota Engine
 
Posts: 2 | Location: Mobile | Registered: Tue August 21 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I have attached some advice for Toyota consumers (or any other make as well) with ENGINE OIL SLUDGE. Toyota sludge continues and so does the denial of coverage under Toyota's very own "Customer Support Program for Engine Oil Gelation." What I have done is but the tip of the iceberg in terms of uncovering the details from thousands of Toyota owners online. These owners include some vehicles not currently included under the CSP--Corolla, Matrix, Rav4, 4Runner, Tacoma, etc.

If you have an affected vehicle--Camry, Avalon, Sienna, Celica, Highlander, Solara, Lexus RX330, Lexus ES300, etc.--you need to insist that Toyota actually honor its "unprecedented" and "generous" program. After all, the company has bragged about it for years! Have you noticed how visible the program has been since initiated in 2002, though?!? "Out of sight, out of mind" must be Toyota's motto!

Those who own the other models may well have to do what the other owners had to do before--voice loudly and often their concerns. Unfortunately, you cannot pull up the 10,000 angry Toyota postings from the now defunct "Complaint Station for Toyota" as the site mysteriously went down in 2004. Same is true for the Cartrackers.com Toyota forum. You have to really dig to find the CarSpace.com (once "Town Hall" at Edmund's) archives on Toyota engine oil sludge. No, such information has been effectively buried...and I guess for good reason considering how many new complaints are emerging!!

Some Toyota owners are noting thrown engine rods, failed emissions testing, and even ENGINE FIRES! Sludge clogs up their vehicles engines until catastrophic failure results. This has happened in as little as 12,000 miles on brand new Highlander! The reason the original sludge victims were so angry is because their new vehicle warranty was made VOID by this engine-choking material.

Toyota blamed the vehicle owners in the beginning. It STILL blames them. There has been no ownership of responsiblity in this matter other than to say that "certain" models are predisposed to owner neglect (lack of maintenance according to Toyota). Hmmmm...makes sense...NOT!

Toyota won't give the updated figures for sludge complaints. Who or what is monitoring what it does? No one, apparently. The NHTSA accepts the CSP but isn't keeping tabs on the follow through.

It is important for the Toyota owners to SPEAK OUT. Start by signing my petition entitled "Toyota Owners Unite for Resolution: Engine Oil Sludge." It can be found at http://www.petitiononline.com/TMC2003/petition.html. Take the time to read the Toyota owner online accounts.

Consider getting engine oil analyses regularly to find out what is happening to your engine oil over time. You will be quite surprised, no doubt.

Contact me for further information.

Charlene Blake
cblake@erols.com
charleneblake@cox.net


"Toyota Owners Unite for Resolution"
 
Posts: 31 | Location: Vienna, VA, USA | Registered: Tue March 16 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Do the 4 cylinder Toyotas (Camry 1999) experience this sludging problem?

Thanks
 
Posts: 2 | Registered: Thu July 19 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Yes, it is included in Toyota's "Customer Support Program for Engine Oil Gelation." Many 4-cylinder Camry owners report a "cooked" type oil condition that looks as if eggs have been fried under the valve cover. Check out the Center for Auto Safety's "Sludge" link to find out what models/model years are included.

Charlene Blake
cblake@erols.com
http://www.petitiononline.com/TMC2003/petition.html


"Toyota Owners Unite for Resolution"
 
Posts: 31 | Location: Vienna, VA, USA | Registered: Tue March 16 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Charlene, I tend to believe your side of the story. Toyota, faced with a potentially huge recall could very well be trying to avoid its responsibilities. People tend to be very loyal to companies they believe to be good to them and I think Toyota, now swimming in profit, might be getting a bit arrogant and taking advantage of this. We'll see.

Let me throw in this consideration. There has been some contention above that if a synthetic oil is used, no sludge will develop and you have disagreed. This is a classic case of the two sides not defining what they are discussing.

IF the lubricant is a true synthetic lubricant such as SynLube, Redline or Amsoil, sludge will not be an issue. These are true synthetic lubes. They have a much greater ability to tolerate heat and to release heat once away from the heat source. I don't think you will find any case of sludge when these oils are used.

Other oils, marketed as 'synthetics' like Castrol Syntec and others by Pennzoil and Quaker State to name a few are petroleum products based on Group III base oil. In my view, the marketing of these products amounts to a hoax where the marketers make a large profit selling the consumer something different than he thinks he's buying. People who bought these oils may indeed be among those you have heard from.
 
Posts: 169 | Location: Atlanta, GA | Registered: Sun August 22 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Houckster:
Charlene, I tend to believe your side of the story. Toyota, faced with a potentially huge recall could very well be trying to avoid its responsibilities. People tend to be very loyal to companies they believe to be good to them and I think Toyota, now swimming in profit, might be getting a bit arrogant and taking advantage of this. We'll see.

Let me throw in this consideration. There has been some contention above that if a synthetic oil is used, no sludge will develop and you have disagreed. This is a classic case of the two sides not defining what they are discussing.

IF the lubricant is a true synthetic lubricant such as SynLube, Redline or Amsoil, sludge will not be an issue. These are true synthetic lubes. They have a much greater ability to tolerate heat and to release heat once away from the heat source. I don't think you will find any case of sludge when these oils are used.

Other oils, marketed as 'synthetics' like Castrol Syntec and others by Pennzoil and Quaker State to name a few are petroleum products based on Group III base oil. In my view, the marketing of these products amounts to a hoax where the marketers make a large profit selling the consumer something different than he thinks he's buying. People who bought these oils may indeed be among those you have heard from.


very true Houckster, not all "synthetics" are synthetic. Mobil lost that case years ago to Castrol.

Get true PAO synthetic oil, do your proper maintenance, drive your car further than the grocery store and faster than 60Kmh on occasion and you will not have sludge problems.
 
Posts: 1 | Registered: Wed November 21 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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