In the case of an engine oil in a passenger car with gasoline fueled engine which has an oil and filter change every 3,000 to 4,000 miles over two or three month intervals, is the difference between a TBN of 6.8 or 8 significant? If it is not normally significant under this type of driving, are there conditions when it might make a significant difference?
Originally posted by Islander: In the case of an engine oil in a passenger car with gasoline fueled engine which has an oil and filter change every 3,000 to 4,000 miles over two or three month intervals, is the difference between a TBN of 6.8 or 8 significant? If it is not normally significant under this type of driving, are there conditions when it might make a significant difference?
Possibly, it would be a better question to ask what would be either the recommended TBN or the minimum TBN a person should look for in an oil used for the above noted driving conditions?
Possibly, it would be a better question to ask what would be either the recommended TBN or the minimum TBN a person should look for in an oil used for the above noted driving conditions?
What does TBN mean at all? Ask all Experts from engine development or Lab guys from the mineral oil Industry. No one has an answer...
What TBN are we talking about? DIN method, ASTM method, some Inhouse method?
However, to have a minimum TBN level of 4 with the german DIN method is for sure a good value.
The difference between 6,8 and 8 is not significant due to Lab deviations.
Posts: 190 | Location: Germany | Registered: Sun June 13 2004
With 3000 to 4000 miles in 2 to 3 months, you very likely are getting a lot of highway driving and long trips. This is not hard on an oil, unless perhaps you are driving 90 mph all the time. I don't think you even have to be concerned with TBN at all. I believe a TBN of 5 is more than adequate for the described conditions and most oils should have that much TBN (excluding cheapo stuff like SA/SB).
Originally posted by Callisa: What does TBN mean at all? Ask all Experts from engine development or Lab guys from the mineral oil Industry. No one has an answer...
What TBN are we talking about? DIN method, ASTM method, some Inhouse method?
I have no idea about method. I see TBN given in various product data sheets on manufacturers' websites and I remember reading somewhere that TBN is relative to the oil's ability to neutralize acids. ? Also, other discussion forum posts I have read suggest to me that the level of an oil's TBN is an indicator of how long that oil can remain in use in an engine and still provide the necessary protection.
However, based on TallPaul's reply, it's not really a concern under the driving conditions I mentioned as an example, i.e. providing a reputable product is used.
There are various methods of measuring TBN and TAN. Most of the time ASTM standards are used. You may use different additives to get TBN into your oil.
Short distance driving with high amounts of sulfur in your fuel will reduce your TBN numbers drastically within very short time. This may also happen with some Diesel engines if they use strange EGR Valve timings.
Posts: 190 | Location: Germany | Registered: Sun June 13 2004
TBN stands for Total Base Number. The higher TBN the better. You will see TBN's in off road engine oils like CASE IH NO. 1 or Deere Plus50 in the 12-13 range.
I though I read somewhere that an ester base oil withstands acids better or helps neutralize acids so that a lower TBN can accompany an ester base oil (as TBN does not measure that property of the base oil). Then an ester based oil with a TBN of 5 may be better than a conventional oil with a TBN of 8. Someone clarify or correct me if I am wrong.
Originally posted by TallPaul: I though I read somewhere that an ester base oil withstands acids better or helps neutralize acids so that a lower TBN can accompany an ester base oil (as TBN does not measure that property of the base oil). Then an ester based oil with a TBN of 5 may be better than a conventional oil with a TBN of 8. Someone clarify or correct me if I am wrong.
Wrong: esters are affected by acid formation as are any other base oil they are no more resisitant to TBN depletion as any other base stock. Esters just tend to solubalize sludge better and keep and engine cleaner. bruce
Posts: 153 | Location: SF Bay Area | Registered: Fri July 15 2005
Do you think the day that the self educated internet oil expert (like those that BITOG generates) will know more about hydrocarbon chemistry than the PhD's who currently build oil chemistry for the major oil companies will occur? Or are those self educated experts like Tallpaul doomed to determine the future of the lubricating oil industry? Personally, I wouldn't waste a second listening to BITOG or their recent graduate, Tallpaul. How about you?
Does my post sound like a self-appointed expert? I even ended it with "Someone clarify or correct me if I am wrong." No "self-appointed" expert talks like that.
Seems you have a problem with people who are able to self educate in an effort to learn more about a common interest many of us have and that would be motor oil formulations and performance of the formulas in the field .
My opinion is you should only add in a positive , polite manor to the topics posted here and to the members and if your unable to do so ... you can go beat your chest elswhere .
The very essence of Noria is for base education or continued education from the publications they offer and the forum they maintain .
No questions are dumb and I think I'm one of the experts but I learn more all the time. I have only 32 years of blending PCMO, HDEO, industrial, metalworking and about any thing else and find BITOG a funny place due to so much dis information from "self discribed experts" BUT TallPaul is not one of the knowitalls he is just learning and must take all the BS out there with a big grain of salt even things I say are wrong. bruce
Posts: 153 | Location: SF Bay Area | Registered: Fri July 15 2005
Do you think the day that the self educated internet oil expert (like those that BITOG generates) will know more about hydrocarbon chemistry than the PhD's who currently build oil chemistry for the major oil companies will occur? Or are those self educated experts like Tallpaul doomed to determine the future of the lubricating oil industry? Personally, I wouldn't waste a second listening to BITOG or their recent graduate, Tallpaul. How about you?
Chumley
No will never happen LOL bruce
Posts: 153 | Location: SF Bay Area | Registered: Fri July 15 2005
I don't think you even have to be concerned with TBN at all. I believe a TBN of 5 is more than adequate for the described conditions and most oils should have that much TBN (excluding cheapo stuff like SA/SB).
