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| Amsoil SSO - Ashless anti-wear
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Level 3 - 101 to 250 posts |
Tim, you are way off-base.
There is "nothing" state of the art about Amsoil. There never has been anything "state of the art" about their products. In fact, Hatco had more to do with Amsoil's first oil than Amsoil did. Mobil was making synthetics long before Amsoil even existed. Amsoil does not produce additives or base oils. They rely on the industry to produce these things. They are a blender. You sound ridiculous. As I said before, prior to GF-4, Amsoil was using Mg in their oils and had oxidation issues. Mobil 1 was using a much more modern additive chemistry well before Amsoil was. This can be said about a lot of other brands. I recently asked someone why Amsoil uses the TFOUT test and he said he wasn't sure because at their lab, that piece of equipment collects dust. Don't be fooled by their propaganda. Good oils, yes, but not the Holy Grail of motor oils. Sorry, no such thing. |
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Level 2 - 51 to 100 posts |
Well, I'll attempt to grant Lamont some small concession and see if he has enough class not to look at it as some weakness to be exploited ..it's not uncommon to have that all too common a reaction ..but we'll see. I may be pleasantly surprised
 XOM has a distinct advantage of having just about all the OEM approvals. They manage this by co-op'ing with the Euro's in engine development. They have THE OEM approved package. Everyone else has to pay the piper. In that regard, Amsoil is going to have to do some R&D to see if they meet the continuously moving target ..that XOM basically gets to move at will. If you call that "catching up" ..then so be it. There are very few dedicated extended drain oils out there. There are cars that have what we consider extended OCI's that are designed to do so and spec specific fluids to do it. Otherwise, there are maybe one or two oils out there that offer extended drain capability as a marketing statement. XOM only has one, the EP line. |
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Level 5 - 501 to 1000 posts |
Didn't you see the list of all of the motor oil "state of the art" firsts AMSOIL has? They would not have any of them if they weren't state of the art. AMSOIL lead in all of these firsts, the rest of the industry followed and are still following today. Amatuzio was making synthetic oils in the 60's. Mobil didn't produce an API rated synthetic oil until years after AMSOIL did. You don't call 35,000 mile gasoline motor oil and warranties and 50,000 mile diesel oil and warranties state of the art? What do you call "state of the art"? Short oil change intervals? Sludge falling from the sky" Magic adaptive molecules? "Ultra" performance? Platinum? Petroleum synthetics? Mid level additive packages? Thinking with your dipstick? We're the best because we have more factory filled cars than anyone else? Talk about hokem hocus pocus! Where are their comparison white papers? Where are their rebuttals of AMSOIL's claims? The fact of the matter is that Big Oil has no interest in making the best motor oils. Their focus is making motor oils that meet specifications at the lowest possible cost, and to make the most profit. While the motor oil industry sales were down 20% last year, AMSOIL had record sales. It looks like AMSOIL has the better strategy. I never said any such thing. AMSOIL has their own research lab and work very closely with SouthWest Research Institute, and Lubrizol in their formulations and testing. All these companies are the top in the industry. The oxidation issues are only in your mind. They did thicken slightly in some extended applications, but never caused any problems and back their products with the best "state of the art" warranty in the business. The others using "a much more modern additive chemisty" have wimpy test results, recommendations and warranties by comparison. Look up TFOUT on Google and you will see 44,000 search results. Savant Labs, SAE, National Institute of Standards and Technology, Lubrication Engineering and Tribology & Lubrication Technology publishes TFOUT articles. Exxon, Shell, LubeGuard, The Department of Energy, BP (Castrol), Caterpillar, Cummins and John Deere use it. ASTM developed methods for it. It does seem to be a valid test. I've never heard of anyone say it is the "Holy Grail" of motor oils. But many say it is the best. And they have the independent test data, used oil analysis, engine tear downs and warranty to back it up. This message has been edited. Last edited by: Tim Vipond, |
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Level 2 - 51 to 100 posts |
How about we all concede that there is no magic oil??
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Level 5 - 501 to 1000 posts |
I think everyone agrees with that. No magic, just that best chemical engineering and formulation, the best base oils, the best additive packages, best test and field results, and the best warranty makes for the best oil. |
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Level 3 - 101 to 250 posts |
Again, Amsoil is not "state of the art". The Amsoil "Firsts" are not how I define state of the art. They are firsts, and should be commended for them. I give them credit for being a leader in extended drain promotion. There is nothing though that Amsoil makes that others can and do make. They hardly have "the best" chemical makeup and engineering. Good yes. Competitive yes. The "best"? No. Define best? I love the propaganda from Amsoil dealers.
As far as TFOUT: "ASTM has this to say about the TFOUT test: "This test method is intended to be used as a bench screening test and quality control tool for lubricating base oil manufacturing, especially for re-refined lubricating base oils. This test method is useful for quality control of oxidation stability of re-refined oils from batch to batch. This test method is useful for screening formulated oils prior to engine tests. Within similar additive chemistry and base oil types, the ranking of oils in this test appears to be predictive of ranking in engine tests. When oils having completely different additive chemistry or base oil type are compared, oxidation stability results may not reflect the actual engine test result. Other oxidation stability test methods have demonstrated that soluble metal catalyst supplies are very inconsistent and they have significant effects on the test results. Thus, for test comparisons, the same source and same batch of metal naphthenates shall be used." Looks like a useful test for its intended purpose, but not necessarily for comparing oils of different formulations." So Tim, you're wrong again. |
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Level 3 - 101 to 250 posts |
The oxidation issue was REAL. Ask Pablo then why he wrote Amsoil a letter about Series 2000. Or why most Amsoil 30 grade oils would end up jumping up a grade after moderate drain intervals. What an over-rated oil that was. That was the most over priced, under performing oil I've ever seen next to Redline 5w-30.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: Buster,
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Level 3 - 101 to 250 posts |
When that netune site tested Mobil 1 against Amsoil, both oils peaked out around 18k miles. The Amsoil had thickened considerably and made the engine feel "sluggish". Of course this was a few years back when Amsoil was using Mg in their oils and Mobil 1 was using a modern GF-4 additive package. So much for state of art. LOL
http://neptune.spacebears.com/.../stories/mobil1.html Wow look at that. Amsoil is now using identical levels of boron and Ca in their oils as Mobil 1 was back in 2004. LOL A better name for Amsoil would be RAMSOIL. This message has been edited. Last edited by: Buster, |
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Level 5 - 501 to 1000 posts |
Who else makes, recommends and warranties a state of the art 35,000 mile gasoline oil and a 50,000 mile diesel oil? So if the others have better chemical makeup and engineering, why don't they do this? They might catch up someday. Mobil 1 EP is nearly half way there after 38 years since AMSOIL. And Mobil had decades of a head start. Only the best oil does these things. No propaganda, just facts. Several companies and organizations use it to compare oils of similar and different formulations and brands. Where am I wrong? When was I wrong before? Looks like you've been wrong all along. This message has been edited. Last edited by: Tim Vipond, |
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Level 3 - 101 to 250 posts |
Tim, re-read what I wrote. It's not good for comparing oils of different formulations.
Mobil Delvac 1 is capable of over 100k mile drain intervals in the right application. Mobil 1 was ALWAYS tested out to 25,000 miles for years. They don't want to go against the car manufacturers and I personally think that is a smart decision. Mobil also makes an oil that can go 15,000 miles and they put it thru some very extensive testing in Las Vegas. Wrong again. http://neptune.spacebears.com/.../stories/amsoil.html Amsoil use Mg while most others were using modern GF-4 adpack. |
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Level 5 - 501 to 1000 posts |
Lets see. Your "oxidation issue" caused no problems. It performed as advertised for 17,500 severe miles/35,000 normal miles/1 year. There were no mechanical failures with this oil. It was priced less than other chemical synthetic oils that did not state a recommended extended change interval or provide a warranty if it failed under extended oil change intervals. Cost per mile was likely lower than any other oil on the market. Yeah, a real loser. Of course AMSOIL is always looking to improve their products, and they did. No surprise there. This message has been edited. Last edited by: Tim Vipond, |
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Level 2 - 51 to 100 posts |
Buster - you are out of control again. Check meds.
You never were able to prove it was oxidation. Interesting. You jumped on the band wagon, admit it. Buster - Amsoil drove the market, Amsoil was ahead of the synthetic pack. How can you just ignore that? Synthetic was nothing, Amsoil was in the market, driving the market for extended OCI's.. Just because some levels of some adds are the similar does not mean Amsoil is a follower. Get real, tell me why SSO and ASM are followers? Amsoil had an CJ-4 before any of your Walmart favorites did. Amsoil has many firsts, as listed. Why do you ignore that? |
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Level 5 - 501 to 1000 posts |
Buster, re-read what you wrote. It said MAY NOT, not, "not good". So? AMSOIL has gone over 400,000 miles in an application and still had the parts and labor warranty in effect. So? All they need to do is warranty it for that mileage, which they don't. Mobil 1 only warrants if you follow the OEM change interval. Big deal. Just proves it is just a commodity oil like the rest. Little family owned American AMSOIL does. Why can't the mega giant international corporations come up to AMSOIL's level of warranted extended oil change intervals? They've had 38 years to try. So? Lubrizol did a study using AMSOIL with New York Taxi cabs back in the 80's with 60,000 mile oil change intervals. Why didn't Mobil step up to the plate and go as long? Exxon had 20 more years to figure it out. |
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Level 5 - 501 to 1000 posts |
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Level 3 - 101 to 250 posts |
Pablo, you sell Amsoil. You admitted to everyone on BITOG that Amsoil had issues with S2k. You also know that the oils had oxidation issues. You wrote them a letter am I not mistaken? The difference here, I don't sell oil. You two do. I think that allows me to be more objective. I really don't need to go any further than this. I don't want to waste anymore time arguing with two Amsoil dealers. My intention is not to slam Amsoil, but to put some reality into Tim's absurd claims. Some of their oils are very good, some are ok. My expectation of "state of the art" is quite high. It's probably in some lab right now. I think you two are a bit blinded by your own bias. Tim, I'm aware that study is not scientific. I used that to show you that Amsoil was behind the curve in additive chemistry back then. In fact, their ASL/ATM look like Mobil 1 from 2005. Doesn't necessarily mean much, but I don't think anything they are using is state of the art. Who needs the meds? Tim, there was a reason you didn't last long on BITOG. It's clearly evident. Pablo, I did not ignore Amsoil's success. RE-READ what I wrote. I said they should be respected for what they have done. You know I've used Amsoil before. This message has been edited. Last edited by: Buster, |
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Level 3 - 101 to 250 posts |
........and for the both of you, don't just take my word. Wake up and read what others have said on here and BITOG. Some of these folks know a lot more then you do!
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Level 5 - 501 to 1000 posts |
How did you show that with a non scientific study? AMSOIL uses Lubrizol's top level additive package. You really think Lubrizol is behind the curve in additives? You really think a $20 used oil analysis of a few elements is definitive of an additive package? It is clearly evident that I use facts in discussions, while many others, like you, don't. I called a former moderator on BITOG a lawyer, which he claimed to be, and somehow took offense. What is bad about their marketing? It must be working as they had record sales when the rest of the industry was down 20% last year. I like that they strive to make the best and longest warranted oils and filters, use undisputed data to show they do, and provide the best warranties in the business. A true American success story. AMSOIL leads and the others follow. Sounds like AMSOIL is in the drivers seat and the others are just along for the ride, going where AMSOIL goes, yet they haven't arrived 38 years later even though they started decades earlier. This message has been edited. Last edited by: Tim Vipond, |
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Level 5 - 501 to 1000 posts |
What absurd claims? All claims were backed with undisputed scientific standardized test methods and data, the US Patent and Trademark Office and the best warranty in the business. What reality have you added? I see that you rarely add any correct or meaningful information in any of your posts in this thread including your opinions. What do you do for a living? What is your education background? I know Pablo is a QA guy for a NASA contractor as he has stated before and as I have consulted for his company several times as a rocket fuel catalyst expert. This message has been edited. Last edited by: Tim Vipond, |
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Level 3 - 101 to 250 posts |
Tim, what tear downs? What tests? These tests? http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-En..._Specifications.aspx Oh know that's right, Amsoil doesn't certify their oils so I wouldn't know. Tim, can you reveal Amsoil's score on any of these engine sequence tests? I honestly think Amsoil would meet them.What I do is not relevant to the discussion. I have a college degree, am not a chemist and never have worked for an oil company. I worked for a very respectable Financial Services firm. Others on here, and other forums are chemists and know a lot about formulation. I've learned a lot from reading their posts. I'm sure your knowledge is all from Amsoil.com. Anyway, back to this. Tim, who helped develop the first Amsoil synthetic? Hatco. Amsoil pioneered the idea so they deserve a lot of credit for that. Tim, no one disputes Amsoil's data because a lot of it doesn't matter. Amsoil is an American success story and a good product. It's just not as good as some make it out to be. It's better now than it used to be from what I've seen over the years. This message has been edited. Last edited by: Buster, |
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Level 3 - 101 to 250 posts |
Some of the new GM's are going to be running 15k mile drain intervals on conventional motor oil soon. Dexos is also around the corner. At some point yearly drain intervals will be the norm.
I give Amsoil credit for pushing this idea forward. Very respectable in that regard. But you're not going to convince me Amsoil is superior to all synthetics on the market with your 4-ball wear and other vague, unsubstantiated biased claims. It's certainly one of the better synthetic blenders out there. |
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