quote:

Originally posted by Buster:
........and for the both of you, don't just take my word. Wake up and read what others have said on here and BITOG. Some of these folks know a lot more then you do!

There are couple more guys who have more knowledge than I. But honestly, most just have larger voices and bolder opinions. Like it or not, most all this chat is extremely subjective, with scant data. I chuckle heartily when Amsoil gets singled out for using sketchy data. Evidence #1: Pennzoil Ultra

Amsoil makes excellent motor oils. Many of the larger oil companies (Shell & Castrol) use more ridiculous marketing. I think Mobil 1 and Redline take a more professional approach.

I agree Pablo. Credit to Amsoil for comparing their oils to other brands. I'm just trying to bring some reality into the discussion here. LOL

quote:

Originally posted by Buster:
The oxidation issue was REAL. Ask Pablo then why he wrote Amsoil a letter about Series 2000. Or why most Amsoil 30 grade oils would end up jumping up a grade after moderate drain intervals. What an over-rated oil that was. That was the most over priced, under performing oil I've ever seen next to Redline 5w-30.

I speculated that Amsoil used the thickening to their advantage.

When you're remote viewing on a broad customer base over varied usage profiles you have to hedge your bets ..so to speak. Keep in mind that the Series 2000 was a pre-2002 oil. There were many evolutions around that time over the whole scope of lubricants. GroupII+

It took them a while to reformulate for the contemporary herd ..but ..so?

And I do not agree with this AT ALL.

quote:

Mobil 1 was ALWAYS tested out to 25,000 miles for years. They don't want to go against the car manufacturers and I personally think that is a smart decision.

M1 abandoned that blanket recommendation decades ago. Now they don't have ONE oil that sports over a 15k OCI ..EXCEPT ..where it's an OEM recommendation that they co-authored with the OEM. NOT ONE oil marketed as 25k/1year. EP is a 15k oil.

I was told that Mobil 1 in it's GF-3 and prior versions, was field tested out to 25,000 miles. Canada's Mobil 1 website stated that also.

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-En..._Why_Synthetics.aspx

Click on Endurance Graph.

None of this matters though. OEM's are going to be pushing for 1 year oil drains soon. Some are already there.

SSO may indeed have some state of the art elements to it, but I couldn't tell you. Lamont says otherwise. Anyway, this is childish. Both are great oils.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Buster,

Mobil dropped the 25k/1year from their marketing when they also withdrew 5w-20 (the original product) from the market. Too many turbo/hiper/Euro/and others grenading engines following the blind/blanket recommendation. Then the words "follow OEM recommendations during warranty" Turbo and diesel owners consult your manual. It may have said (at that point) "UP TO 25k/one year" but left the consumer hanging in the breeze.

The 5w-20 didn't reappear for about 25+ years.

Yeah that's true. There is little doubt in my mind that Amsoil is up there with the best. I have not always had that opinion as I said before. The company would not exist for over 35 years if it wasn't doing something right. It's all cyclical anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by Buster:

quote:

Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
Why do AMSOIL products consistently outperform the competition in standard ASTM independent oil tests, high mileage UOA's and engine tear downs?

AMSOIL has always said they make the best oils by using the best base oils and additive packages. NONE of the competitors have EVER disputed the data (they would if they could, but can't so they won't), nor said they make an equal or better product than AMSOIL.

Why is that? They have to make the best. AMSOIL recommends and warranties longer oil change intervals than any other oil company. Up to 35,000 miles for gasoline engines, and up to 50,000 miles in diesel engines (and of course longer if supported by UOA as many customers do). Compare that to the 4,000 mile warranties of other oils. AMSOIL has to make the best oil in order to do this. They not only make the claim, but have the data to support it. None of the other oils have disputed this in 38 years.

AMSOIL was granted the trademark "The First in Synthetics" when no other oil company would challenge they made an equal or better oil.

"I find these data more suspicious than compelling." Actually if you look at all the undisputed independent data, I find it more compelling and above suspicion.

Tim, what tear downs? What tests?

60,000 mile oil change intervals in New York Taxis:http://www.synthetic-motor-oil-change-and-filters.com/amsoil_testimonies/satisfied_customers_cars/oil-comparison-using-new-york-taxi-cabs-with-amsoil-10w40-oil.php
409,000 mile oil change interval engine tear down: http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g1343.pdf .
12,000 severe mile oil change interval in fleet gasoline truck: http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g2244.pdf .
API Sequence IIIF at TRIPLE the hour test: http://www.amsoil.com/comparis...otoroil-3f-test.aspx .
930,000 mile gasoline delivery van with 30,000 mile oil change intervals: http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g2578.pdf .

quote:

Oh know that's right, Amsoil doesn't certify their oils so I wouldn't know. Tim, can you reveal Amsoil's score on any of these engine sequence tests? I honestly think Amsoil would meet them.

AMSOIL has API certified oils in the XL 5w20, 5W30, 10W30, 10W40 and their synthetic blend 15W40 diesel oil.

quote:

What I do is not relevant to the discussion. I have a college degree, am not a chemist and never have worked for an oil company. I worked for a very respectable Financial Services firm. Others on here, and other forums are chemists and know a lot about formulation. I've learned a lot from reading their posts. I'm sure your knowledge is all from Amsoil.com.

I was wondering how you could be so ignorant of basic chemistry and oil formulation and testing. Now I know.

Again you are wrong. Only some of my knowledge comes from www.amsoil.com, which has more technical information on their products (and a lot on competitors products) than any other oil company site. Over 6,000 pages of technical information at last count. Most of my knowledge came from my chemistry degree, 28 years working at Shell Oil company, most of which was at the formulation and testing center in Houston, reading tribology books and industry publications, and 6 years providing technical support to over 350 individuals, fleets, municipalities, racers, and retail accounts as part of my business service.

quote:

Anyway, back to this. Tim, who helped develop the first Amsoil synthetic? Hatco. Amsoil pioneered the idea so they deserve a lot of credit for that.

Hatco helped, as did several other tribologists that Amatuzio sought out to consult with. Amatuzio formulated, made, tested, bottled and sold his own original oil.

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Tim, no one disputes Amsoil's data because a lot of it doesn't matter. Amsoil is an American success story and a good product. It's just not as good as some make it out to be. It's better now than it used to be from what I've seen over the years.

Wrong. Pennzoil took AMSOIL to court and lost. Smaller Royal Purple was taken to task due to their unsubstantiated claims by BP. The other oil companies are very aware of AMSOIL and their claims and the data AMSOIL publishes on competitors oils. But AMSOIL is clear on the batches they test and the test methods they use. When I worked for Shell, Shell tested AMSOIL products to see if they were as good as AMSOIL claimed. They were. If they weren't Shell and other companies would take AMSOIL to court for liable. But AMSOIL always backs up their claims with undisputable proof. Other oil companies have tried to purchase AMSOIL, but Amatuzio says that will never happen. Even WalMart tried to buy the company. What makes you think AMSOIL is not as good as they claim?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Tim Vipond,

Tim, I'm going to say this one more time. Amsoil makes a fine motor oil, but so do others that are just as good in many areas. Some of Amsoil's motor oils are far from state of the art. Good yes, but state of the art? Nah.

I'm aware the XL line is API certified. You completely missed the point. My point was unless you know the score or how well your oil did in the many engine sequence tests, you really can't claim superiority. There is no doubt Amsoil over the last few years has really stepped up and made better oils. Their previous offerings of years past were not as good as they should have been, IMO.

I'm also ware of the BP RP issue that happened in 2009. I trust Amsoil's data, but their data doesn't reveal everything. As I said before TFOUT and 4-ball wear are used as pre-screen tests. TFOUT is not good for comparing motor oils that are different in chemical makeup. I'm sure all the companies bench test against competitor oils.

Pennzoil is rolling out their new Ultra oil. They used Mobil 1 as the benchmark and did a lot of internal testing on Mobil 1. So what? They all do that.

I never heard that Amutuzio formulated his own first oil. I did hear it had more to do with Hatco. Amatuzio's idea, yes, but formulator? Not sure about that one.

Also, I don't care that you worked for Shell. That doesn't tell me anything. Have you seen tearaparts of other oils under the scope? Do you know the chemical composition of all these oils? None of us do. I'd be very careful about claiming superiority and using the words "state of the art" when you yourself probably have no idea what that is at the current time.

Pennzoil Ultra - Tbn of 13, Exceeds API SN/GF-5 and meets most if not all the most demanding industry specifications.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/...=1795833#Post1795833

As many have noticed, the gap has closed in on many of the boutique brands. All of these oil companies have chemists with PHD's. There is nothing they can't do that Amsoil does. It's simply a matter of demand and whether there is a market for these types of products. The industry is moving towards full synthetic oils.

Nobody has shown their oil to be equal or superior to AMSOIL's 35,000 mile gasoline oil or 50,000 mile warranted oil changes. Nobody has show their oil to equal or out perform AMSOIL in any bench testing, field tests or engine teardowns. Nobody has more or important synthetic oil industry firsts than AMSOIL. Nobody has disputed AMSOIL in any of this. The best available products are "state of the art". That would be AMSOIL.

Amatuzio even bottled his own formulated oils in his garage, and transported them in the trunk of his car. I guess you hadn't heard that either. From these humble beginnings as a son of immigrants, he does have the state of the art oils that others would have to excel for them to be state of the art. And it has been this way for 38 years.

Tim, there is no doubt that Amsoil is an American success story. I have a lot of respect for the company and man. Where I will end this, and disagree, is that for over 35 years, at certain points, Amsoil has not made the absolute best motor oils available. I'm not really sure what "best" means. Everything is cyclical. Things are always changing and in the pipeline. Amsoil is a premium brand that tries to stay at the forefront, but that doesn't mean they always are. Amsoil relies on the true innovators of the industry.

Apparently back in the day Amsoil dealers would brag about how Mobil 1 was not a true synthetic, because it was PAO based. At that time Amsoil was diester based. Amsoil followed Mobil's lead and started using PAO. Just one example of Amsoil following the lead.

quote:

Originally posted by Buster:
Apparently back in the day Amsoil dealers would brag about how Mobil 1 was not a true synthetic, because it was PAO based. At that time Amsoil was diester based. Amsoil followed Mobil's lead and started using PAO. Just one example of Amsoil following the lead.

"Apparently" Never heard of that one. PAO is a true chemical synthetic. Just that AMSOIL has figured out how to warranty it for 25,000 miles for 38 years and Mobil hasn't. AMSOIL has never followed Mobil, it's always been the other way around. Look who came up with these industry firsts. It was AMSOIL, not Mobil. Yet Mobil followed AMSOIL and now does the same:
The Company of Firsts
AMSOIL has a documented history of innovation and leadership.

First to develop an API-rated 100 percent synthetic motor oil.
First to introduce the concept of "extended drain intervals" with a recommended 25,000-mile/1-year drain interval.
First U.S. company to utilize the NOACK volatility test as a standard of performance excellence.
First to produce synthetic motor oils for diesel engines, racing engines, turbo and marine engines.
First to introduce synthetic oils that legitimately contribute to improving fuel efficiency.
First to manufacture synthetic gear lube for automotive use.
First to manufacture a 100:1 pre-mix synthetic 2-cycle oil.
First to manufacture a synthetic automatic transmission fluid for automotive use.

AMSOIL leads, Mobil followed.

Tim Mobil invented the PAO in 1949. Mobil could easily make an oil that could hold up for that long, they just chose not too. They did follow Amsoil for awhile making their 25,000 mile claim but later dropped it.

And what I said is true. Amsoil's first oil was primarily diester and it was developed with the help of Hatco.

In the early 80's dealers bragged about how Amsoil was a true synthetic because it was Group V based. They ended up following Mobil's lead and started using cheaper PAO and blended it with ester.

http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib...8615989/m1rotech.pdf

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Buster,

http://www.exxonmobilchemical....sestock-brochure.pdf


So you're telling me that one of the world's largest companies that develops base oils and additives follows Amsoil's lead? Maybe in recommending drain intervals, but not oil technology.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Buster,

quote:

Originally posted by Buster:
Tim Mobil invented the PAO in 1949.

Really? The Germans had commercially available PAO during WWII. That was before 1949 if you didn't know. And first synthesized in 1937. 12 years before "Mobil invented PAO in 1949".

quote:

And what I said is true. Amsoil's first oil was primarily diester and it was developed with the help of Hatco.

Amatuzio was developing his own oils in the 1960's in his garage. It was diester because that was the base of the oils used in his fighter jets. Hatco and other tribologists helped later on after his first oil.

quote:

In the early 80's dealers bragged about how Amsoil was a true synthetic because it was Group V based.

Group V oils are synthetic. Didn't you know that?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Tim Vipond,

quote:

Originally posted by Buster:
http://www.exxonmobilchemical....sestock-brochure.pdf


So you're telling me that one of the world's largest companies that develops base oils and additives follows Amsoil's lead? Maybe in recommending drain intervals, but not oil technology.

Yes. Look who had the synthetic industry firsts. And who the Johnny come lately was. Pretty clear to me.

Has anyone noticed that any time someone makes a solid point, Tim grabs the least relevant tail end of it and heads of on a tangent? He argues like my ex-wife. I know a no-win situation when I see one.

Tim, the main reason I represent myself as completly unqualified to comment is that I want any ideas I put forward to stand or fall on their own merits. Anyone who is more obsessed with my background than my ideas is really not the sort of person I enjoy interacting with.

So, when were you going to tell our studio audience and all of the folks watching at home that you're an Amsoil dealer?

Correction about the PAO date.

"The first commercially viable process for making PAO was pioneered by Gulf Oil in 1951; this process was improved by Mobil in the 1960s. Mobil first used this new base oil in specialty products such as Mobilgrease 28, which solved a wheel bearing failure problem on aircraft carriers in cold climates.8

PAOs became a major consumer-sought lubricant component when Mobil Oil began marketing its Mobil 1®. In the 15 years following introduction, the PAO market traveled a long and winding road battling a slow, steady growth and criticisms of justification for the higher cost compared to conventional oils. In the last 10 years, the PAO market significantly increased, first in Europe and then in North America, experiencing periods of double-digit growth."

Tim, I know Group V is considered synthetic. LOL