quote:

Originally posted by Captain Kirk:
Deltona Dave.....I fail to see what your point is with big rigs at this time nor how it addresses all the known sludge issues and lawsuits in the U.S. and Abroad.....police car engines have not been sludge prone and are typically very fully warmed up with plenty of oil changes..........then auctioned off at 100k for obvious reasons and replaced with our tax money over and over.

We are off topic with big rigs and cop cars.

Nah, we are not off topic. I am just stating that sludge has more to do with engine design and not so much oil. A properly designed engine like a cop car or heavy duty truck engine will not sludge, even if using cheapo oil. My Nissan Titan will go 7500 miles on Dino and I don't fear that it will sludge, as most Nissan engines are not known sludgers.

The best thing anyone should do before buying a car is to do a little research before hand, follow the OM and maintenance schedules, and use quality lubes and accessories. Remember, you get what you pay for.

With that, I am signing out for the night. Have to be at work at 0400 hours.

Good night folks.

Dave

quote:

Originally posted by Deltona_Dave:
Miro says he has diesel "synlube", but at that price, most fleets can get 6 gallons of Rotella for the price of 1 quart synlube. And most HD engine manufacturers allow rigs to go 25K or more on conventional.

Caterpillar even states in their lubrication guide that oil that "generically states meets or exceeds Caterpillar standards ECF1", is not to be used in their engines. They want either Cat oil or a Major brand with CH/CF-4 or higher. They even send out test kits to have oil analyzed by Cat. every 500 hours to see how well it is holding up.

You just most likely answered your own question. The guys running the fleets only look at the initial price of the oil and don't care about anything else....happens all over America with doing things on the "cheap" because it looks good up front and impresses your manager and gives you that "attaboy" pat on the back for saving money. I call that "penny wise and dollar foolish".

How many recalls,accidents,tragedies,infrastructure issues,etc. have happened because someone was cheap and cut corners!!

On the matter of "synthetic" HD Oils use in USA.

Actually other than SynLube, no one really makes 100% Synthetic NON PETROLUEM HD OIL.

Even companies like AMSOIL repackage the DELO oil into their own bottles, as they could never afford all the tests given the miniscule use of such oils in USA.

In pre "depression, economic downturn, or what ever you wish to call it" it was less than 1% of the HD vehicles in USA that used such oils.

Today it is 0.3% as even the few that did use them cut their expenses to minimum.

Mobil before Exxon takeover spend $20 to $24 million on promoting Synthetic HD Oil to fleets and did not succeed to convince them for 26 years to even try it.

Today really only DELO (Chevron) makes what they call "synthetic" but really it is also just glorified petroleum.

People like Trajen should have a field day with that one, they if pressed give you this definition of DELO Synthetic:

Chevron's proprietary ISOSYN technology combines highly refined base oils with advanced additives to create products that rival synthetic lubricants in critical performance tests.

No admission that anything actually is synthetic = man made = look up the definition, but that it "rivals" synthetic lubricants !

Delvac 1 SAE 5W-40 is de facto the ONLY HD Motor oil that depending on how Exxon feels that week contains 40% to 60% PAO and about 15% to 20% of premixed additive package (in SN 150 petroleum oil) and alkylated hydrocarbons (another almost synthetic code name for "petroleum").

It is the best there is and at price that is $30 to $35 by the gallon (not $5 as someone stated).

But still 4 times cheaper than SynLube to buy, but 2 times as expensive to use, since ExxonMobil will not take even "fresh oil" back once a distributor ends up stuck with it - which they ultimately do.

Anyway "fleet" managers do not seem to be able to use a calculator, much less a computerized spread sheet - nor they understand "preventive" maintenance.

Most fleets just do not have a clue, period.

Owner Operators are what is now called "living dead" and really can not afford to invest to "save" money.

Fleet managers are not the drivers.

And to be and HD driver all you need is to stay awake and sit - no thinking is required.

While our economy depends on truckers and I have high respect for the job they do, they are not appreciated, grossly underpaid and thus only people that even fail to get job with Government end up being truckers.

Sad but true. And if you even have bit of bran activity left, that sure goes away after the 24/7 CW music treatment.

So on the subject why don't they all use it ?

They just do not know they should, and they just do not have the intelectual ability to figure out the benefit of lubricant that costs them "nothing" to use, but which requires "investment" up front to derive that benefit.

Average HD tuck could save $700 per month in fuel costs alone and about another $250 in oil changes - but if you have no idea what is your FE to start with, such saving can not be demonstrated.

Michelin gave up on trying to sell "single" rear tires that can save as much as 15% on fuel and last about 25% longer but costed about 120% more than "single" tire - even the fact that ONE tire replaced TWO tires was apparently too much to comprehed for truckers and the management.

That in my opinion is a "no brainer" !!!

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Miro Kefurt,

This is the MSDS definition of ISOSYN from which DELO Synthetic HD oil is made:

Highly refined mineral oil (C15 - C50) Mixture 60 - 100 %weight

FLAMMABLE PROPERTIES:
Flashpoint: (Cleveland Open Cup) <200 °C (<392 °F) Minimum

Magically when you highly refine (as compared to "conventional refining") any petroleum it turns into a "synthetic" - at triple or quadruple the Retail Price, it offers almost no measurable benefit over "Conventional HD Motor Oil" so no wonder it is not embraced by the Tucking Industry - just plain way to expensive to use.

I rest my case !!!

PS: SynLube will not even flash at 525 F

No need to pay $600 for ASTM test, just use your home owen, the "synthetic" any thing made from petroleum will catch on fire long before the SynLube will even boil - someting you can prove to yourself at home, but I would recommend you invest into ABC fire extinquisher, you will need it !!!

Just set your owen at 450 F (the limit on most owens) and "broil" !!!

Once you do that and see what will remain after that "test" you may never want to use your favorite Oil ever again.....

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Miro Kefurt,

quote:

The best thing anyone should do before buying a car is to do a little research before hand, follow the OM and maintenance schedules, and use quality lubes and accessories. Remember, you get what you pay for.

Do a little research??......explain all those Toyota owners with acceleration issues that was "hidden" from the public? So much for a "little" research!

Explain all the sludge issues with.............LEXUS,VW,AUDI,TOYOTA,DODGE,CHRYSLER. ALL BAD ENGINES....REALLY?

EXPLAIN ALL THE CLASS ACTION LAWSUITS.

Show why those engines sludged up when the owners manual was followed and documentation was provided in many of the cases to back this. Many of the cars were dealer serviced!!

Deltona.........you have been stating your own assertions,opinions,ignoring all the facts and giving your said personal observations involving a garage at your work place that you claim to be privy. I don't buy it!!

Are you going to have one believe that you also work overtime in a police garage fixing cop cars after your detective shifts ends?

Have you interviewed all the mechanics in your garage and compiled data to back your claims regarding the condition of all those cop car engines. If so...how would that relate to the much bigger picture of sludge across many car brands and class action lawsuits!!

You're an expert on big rig diesels as well?

Now you find the time to post here even with your very busy schedule of being a police officer,..detective,...cop car mechanic,...big rig expert,..oil guru,tribologist......and who knows what else. You're better then YODA!!

I only have stated the big picture facts and left my opinions out of the discussion.

Pointing out individual or small scale examples has little if any validity pertaining to major issues.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Captain Kirk,

quote:

Mobil before Exxon takeover spend $20 to $24 million on promoting Synthetic HD Oil to fleets and did not succeed to convince them for 26 years to even try it.

I remember the mentality back then that synthetic oil in general was a scam or some kind of rip-off and not needed. Now it's installed at the factory!

Too bad it's not really true 100% synthetic oil,just typically the Cat.III synthetic.

Where are all those naysayers now? Perhaps they have morphed into synlube bashers!!! or Sludge deniers!! or Trajen/snakedoctor.

quote:

Originally posted by Captain Kirk:



Explain all the sludge issues with.............LEXUS,VW,AUDI,TOYOTA,DODGE,CHRYSLER. ALL BAD ENGINES....REALLY?

EXPLAIN ALL THE CLASS ACTION LAWSUITS.

They were explained. Both here and in the suits. Bad design.

You still fail to show that those suits you love to bring up were aimed at the oil companies.

Blah blah, big oil blah blah big money blah blah. You can't even show that such suits against the oil companies were even filed, let alone dismissed.

Where are the docs to the tests synlube claims they passed.

quote:

Originally posted by Deltona_Dave:
I am not taking any sides here, but Capt. Kirk, you are so fond of "bulk oil sludge", why don't you ask the large OTR trucking fleets to use your "synlube". These trucks do 150K a year! If that truck is down for maintenance, the company/driver is losing money. If there was a product that could save them downtime, they would be jumping all over it. Truth is, Heavy Duty diesel engines are designed for abuse, long OCI's and minimum downtime. The mechanics are going to use the cheapest "bulk" oil and service them at the longest interval.
Dave

- off topic -

We have actually developed a tool for this used by one of world's largest oilco's. It enables you to fill in the vehicle(s), labour time/hour rates, mileage, downtime, oil price, other service items like filters and calculates the savings or extra costs when using a high interval oil. More info on request.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Miro Kefurt:


Even companies like AMSOIL repackage the DELO oil into their own bottles, as they could never afford all the tests given the miniscule use of such oils in USA.
[QUOTE]

Is that a fact Amsoil guys?

AD

quote:

Originally posted by Captain Kirk:

quote:

The best thing anyone should do before buying a car is to do a little research before hand, follow the OM and maintenance schedules, and use quality lubes and accessories. Remember, you get what you pay for.

Do a little research??......explain all those Toyota owners with acceleration issues that was "hidden" from the public? So much for a "little" research!

Explain all the sludge issues with.............LEXUS,VW,AUDI,TOYOTA,DODGE,CHRYSLER. ALL BAD ENGINES....REALLY?

EXPLAIN ALL THE CLASS ACTION LAWSUITS.

Show why those engines sludged up when the owners manual was followed and documentation was provided in many of the cases to back this. Many of the cars were dealer serviced!!

Deltona.........you have been stating your own assertions,opinions,ignoring all the facts and giving your said personal observations involving a garage at your work place that you claim to be privy. I don't buy it!!

Are you going to have one believe that you also work overtime in a police garage fixing cop cars after your detective shifts ends?

Have you interviewed all the mechanics in your garage and compiled data to back your claims regarding the condition of all those cop car engines. If so...how would that relate to the much bigger picture of sludge across many car brands and class action lawsuits!!

You're an expert on big rig diesels as well?

Now you find the time to post here even with your very busy schedule of being a police officer,..detective,...cop car mechanic,...big rig expert,..oil guru,tribologist......and who knows what else. You're better then YODA!!

I only have stated the big picture facts and left my opinions out of the discussion.

Pointing out individual or small scale examples has little if any validity pertaining to major issues.

I am a a retired police officer. I now work at a Sheriff's Office as a vehicle electronics specialist. I install and maintain the In Car cameras, Mobile Data terminals, citation printers, software, and other things. I am under the hood of the CVPI's a lot. I work with our Fleet Mechanics daily.

About Heavy Duty Diesels, A good friend of mine is an Independent Diesel and Auto Mechanic, I have been to his shop many times to observe and help out ( I like to turn a wrench).

I have not claimed anywhere to be an "expert" on oil sludge. I am just stating observations, and I research. I don't care about lawsuits and oil sludge. I service my vehicles on schedule and sleep well at night.

I did not come here to "bash" synlube or anyone else. If I wanted to use synlube, I would do so. But, I am like most others that want idependent verifiable proof that this lube works as advertised. Not just references to one website and a few testimonials. Until then, I will use my humble GrpIII synthetic and change every 5K. I take my old oil to the County recycle facility. Yes, I recycle my household stuff too. I am not a tree hugger, as I drive a full size truck. I even use the shredded tire mulch around the house. Stuff lasts for years!

Good Day.
I'll be 10-10 for a while.
Dave

Miro,
I never said Delvac-1 was 5 dollars a gallon bulk, I was referring to the Conventional oils. Rotella-T, Delo 400, and Delvac 1300. Delvac-1 retails for 55, so bulk would be about 45% of that or roughly 30-35 a gallon.

Also, there are a lot of OTR truck drivers that have College Degrees, especially the HazMat haulers. They choose to drive after retiring. Why not, they can travel the country, take in some sightseeing, and get paid (not much, but they can make a living.)

Again, I am not here to bash synlube, I am just trying to get some independent verifiable facts.

Maybe you could work out a deal with a regional trucking company? They could advertise the fact that your product works and they are saving $$$ and less downtime. Stuff like that will build up credibility. No, I am not a marketing "expert". Just a suggestion.

Dave

quote:

Deltona_Dave

Thanks for the suggestion, but actually Synthashield (a private brand of American Fine Lubricants) tried to market SynLube to fleets.

They lost $2.3 million doing it, they gave away samples (FREE) only to get feedback like "WOW that is great - can we get MORE FREE STUFF for rest of the fleet !"

My end of the business is to produce the product as I am one of the only 3 people alive than know how to make it - it is up to the other people to sell, market and promote it.

I can only clone myself so many times in a day, and actually daily do a work that would require at least 4 full time people if I hired someone to replace me to do all that I do do daily.

One big point is that people do not realize that our pricing has been the same since 1996 and we have even upped the container size from Quarts to Liters at no extra charge.

If SynLube was "Oil" and used any petroleum then of course our costs/prices would be lot more.

In 1985 it was $50 per US Quart.

In 1969 it was $200 per Liter (well $186.20 with discount)

If you ship an EMPTY box across US it costs $5.00 to $7.50

If you put one Liter of SynLube in it (ADD OIL) then it costs $6.00 to $10.00 and that is for $20 "worth" of SynLube.

Most of our business is sending daily boxes of one or two Liters of ADD OIL to our existing customers that on average use that much in about two years.

So when you consider that Delvac-1 as you say retails for $55 per gallon = $14.67 per liter

Than our SynLube ADD OIL with FREE SHIPPING is actually a cheaper alternative.

Now you add the fact that we BUY the USED Synlube back at 100% of what the cusomer paid for it ($32.00 per initial fill) and the use of SynLube is only 1/2 to 1/3 the cost of PETROLEUM.

ANYONE can change the SynLube as often as they wish, but again that does not seem to register - they only see the UP TO maximums of 10 years or 150,000 miles, but those extremes were ALWAYS only recommended for the EXTREME USES.

Like trucks or van that is on Interstate 90% of the time the 150,000 miles limit would apply.

Car that is seldom or never driven -like lot of collector cars - 10 years

For everyone else we have for 26 years recommended 5 years or 50,000 miles OIL CHANGE Interval - but again people seeem to fail to read the LARGE PRINT !!!

The referenced tests on our web actually explain which LONG TERM test were undertaked and why, and who did them and when.

http://lube4life.com/SynLubeLTT.htm

54 pages and tons of arguments but very few people take any time to actually read anything, or take time to "understand" what it says or claims.

But I have to thank you for taking time to clarify your position and not flying of the rocker when doing it.

If you know Cown Vic then you for sure can appreciate the AAA test on it.

http://www.synlube.com/press.htm

Or the "test" by OAKLAND CA Police Dpt on 6 Vics (all new) that was long term comparison on 15 2000MY all bought at the same time.

AFL = Synthashield spent a fortune on that installation even flown their own mechanic from Los Angeles to Oakland, only to be told 9 years later "can we get MORE FREE STUFF but this time for 35 cars !!"

They of course did nto bother to drain and return the SynLube with over 100,000 miles average on the "test" cars before they went to auction and they got on the averge $1,400 per car - each had $500 worht of SynLube in them

Motor Oil, PSF, ATF, Differential, and DOT 5.1 + Coolant.

It was too much trouble to "drain and return" FREE SynLube - but AFL paid us for it of course, as we do not giveout FREE stuff to anyone.

SO that is my scoop on that one....

http://lube4life.com/fleet.htm

Mileages on the OAKLAND POLICE cars when they were retired after 9 years in service:

122,961
136,553
149,803
145,332
90,290
148,498

Miles when converted (NEW)

6
18
24
15
32
8

9/19/2000



And of course that "proof" after 9 years of use WITHOUT OIL CHANGE is not good enough for you know who !!!

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Miro Kefurt,

Where are the documents to the tests that synlube crows they passed?

No links to a susspect site. Verifiable proof.

Who is the contact at Oakland PD? I will drop them an email from my work (I work at a Sheriff's Office.)

Now I can see why you are not going with OTR. Your lube is only good for 50K under "extreme" conditions. Most modern OTR diesels will go 25-50K on conventional (if you are in doubt, check out the maint. intervals on Detroit Diesel site).

It would take 200+ dollars to fill my personal truck (32*7 quarts) to go 50K on your oil, not including filter, add oil, magnets, etc. My truck sees "extreme" duty, towing, idling, etc. I can use conventional oil for 5K for about the same amount during that 50K. Where is the benefit? I like spending time maintaining my vehicle. It only takes 30 minutes every 4 months.

FWIW,
Dave

A city as large as Oakland CA, those vehicles would see 100K in 2 years, if they were "hot seated aka pool cars." If they were issued "Indy Plan", they would see 100K in about 4 years. Our County is small, about 30miles long, 15 miles deep, and our Deputies put 30K a year average. We are retiring '06 now, but some '07 have already been auctioned, with an average of 100K. We get our monies worth out of them. After 100K, the front end will need a lot of repairs and are not cost effective, and definitely not safe at pursuit speeds.

dave

Okland City owns all the vehicles and as you can see the In City average MPH is in teens,
The Oil however was in the vehicles for 10,000 hours on the average.

They sit at intersections, by school zones, and do Park Ranger service, they do not chase people or patrol Highways, that is job for CHP.

Jerry Brown, then Mayor of Okland City was our contact through AFL.

PS: The only issue in your truck would be how much oil it burns, remember you get FREE SynLube in exchange for the USED Synlube ANYTIME YOU WISH.

The 5 years or 50,000 miles is the limit that our Insurance will underwrite, that is their decision not ours. And if you do that on a NEW vehicle the TOTAL Limit is 15 years from date of manufacture and 150,000 total odo miles.

On USED vehicle if you convert it before 60,000 miles or 5 years the Limited Lubrication Warranty is up to 10 years form date of MFG or 100,000 total miles.

Such Warranty if purchased separately would be about 2 to 3 times the cost of SynLube !!!

And it is FREE to anyone who sends back VIN, MFG Date and Date of Installation.

Most people with IN City driving average 22 to 27 MPH and over the road the average is 45 MPH.

The Engine Run time matters lot more than the indicated miles, both for engine wear and Lubricant Lifetime.

The Oakland City chagnes the oil on the patrol vehicles every MONTH, no matter what the miles, that is the only way they can keep track of which vehicle was serviced.

The cost of disposal of TEXACO oil in californai for the city was TWICE the cost of a drum of fresh petroleum - In CA they charge to remove used Oil from Fleets, some other palces in USA they actually pay you to get the used oil, so over all economy has to include the disposal costs, etc.

quote:

Now I can see why you are not going with OTR. Your lube is only good for 50K under "extreme" conditions. Most modern OTR diesels will go 25-50K on conventional (if you are in doubt, check out the maint. intervals on Detroit Diesel site).

Dave Those trucks hold about 10-15 gallons of engine oil in the pan if I'm not mistaken. If those trucks are going 25-50k on conventional oil.....how far would they go using synlube is the question.

I think the milage intervals with cars vs. trucks would be relative to the what the manual recomends.

I will take an educated guess that Miro could verify... and figure the big rigs using 10-15 gallons of Diesel synlube engine oil and using a ratio of 3000 miles for cars vs the 50k you stated above for the OTR trucks...... or 16X longer than the stated 50k...... would be 800k using synlube???


Just a guess!!

The documents to the tests that synlube crows they passed?

Why don't you show them.

No links to a suspect site. Verifiable proof.