Hi everyone,
I'm new to the forum, and joined for two reasons.
#1 I've blown up two brand new racing engines, and I suspect the oil additive that I used, and #2 I want to learn a little bit about oil.

Here's my story.
Short track asphalt race team.
1/4,3/8, and 1/2 mile tracks.
Aftermarket Dart 400 small block chevy, 14:1 compression, with lots of trick parts, running on alcohol, approx 635+ hp.
I've run these two engines, with same configuration for several years and no problems. Never an engine failure, just freshen them up every winter, and do regular maint every second race.

This year, I gain a sponsor, and you geussed it, it's an oil additive company.
They want to, but can't afford to give my race team money this year, but they could and did supply product which was in both engines at time of failure.

When engine #1 expired after the third race of the season, I chalked it up to an assembly issue, and stuck it in the corner, and installed the back up engine in the race car.

Engine #2 performed flawlessly the first night out. Then it promptly expired during hot laps on its second evening of racing.

Both engines after inspection showed indications of severe shortage of lubrication to all areas of the engine.

Engine #1 has since been repaired and is back in service, and I've had no issues to date, and we are not using the oil additive anymore.

Well it's 5 pm, time to punch out and get to the race shop. I'll post more of the story tomorrow. But I will say this before I go........new additive on the market, bismuth, oil filter failures(imploded steel inner retainers), and black goo that the parts washer won't touch.

More tomorrow,
Cheers,
Row Z

This looks interesting.

What benefits do they claim with use of there product?

what oil additive?? some will not help or hurt BUT a high vis poymer can thicken oil to >60wt and will/may cause oil starvation issues.

Other additives are only ZDDP and as such may help with scuffing wear.

others are chlor parrifin and will/may cause cbearing corrosion issues so more info is needed and what was falure mode??
bruce

Is it too late to do some oil analysis?

""new additive on the market, bismuth, oil filter failures(imploded steel inner retainers), and black goo that the parts washer won't touch.""

Bismuth Napthenate which it maybe be is a good anti scuff additive BUT as I remember can/will form lot of sludge and may react with detergent pak in base motor oil I'd use only small amount maybe 5% bye volume only IMHO better for gear oil than a motor oil.
bruce

The main claim is the additive builds up a protective anti wear surface over metal surfaces, especially in high stress/wear area's.
The main lubricating component "disassociates itself" and should "sacrifice" to the high heat , wear, and stress areas. Remaining there even after engine cooling.
Of course they claim increased cooling and power, cold start protection, and the other usual items.
I was told that this was the first oil additive to get the main ingredient to properly stay in suspension, and later told it was bismuth.

Engine #1 had Joe Gibbs XP4 racing oil, and Engine #2 had Mobil 1 syn. Both exellent oils that I continue to use.
Both engines failures began at con rod #3 at the crank journal.
Engine #1 let go at apex of corner, off the gas, low RPM, thus less internal damage.
Engine #2 let go at end of straight away, highest RPM, and I was able to retrieve bits of pistons, rings, con rods, cam shaft, and block.
needless to say, Engine #2 is junk.

Both engines bearings in the rotating assembly were completely worn out, with the exception of the rear main crank journal which showed high wear, but had a little life left in it.
Inspection of the valve train, including cam lobes showed wear on both engines. They both had the black goo residue in the oil pans.

My helper tossed the oil filter from engine #1, not knowing that I always cut open and inspect my filters, but I did retrieve an oil sample from engine #2 oil filter, and cut it open to find that the oil pump had colapsed the inner steel liner of the filter, and the filter is very heavy and appears to be completely plugged up, and very black in color. I suspect the same type of material as the black goo in the oil pans.
Looks like both engines were comletely starved of oil.
My opinion, and other engine builders have agreed, is the oil filter by pass will not provide enough volume if the oil filter is plugged, to sufficiently lubricate these engines at the load and RPM we run.

So yes, I have samples of oil and black residue.
Any suggestions on what I should ask the lab to look for?
I used 1 ounce of additive for each quart of oil as instructed. So 8 oz and 8 quarts per engine.
Engine #1 lasted long enough to get one oil change, and engine #2 did not.

I think now, my engines may have been the first high performance racing engines to run this additive, although I understood differently when I agreed to use it.
There are other things I was told, that bring short, unclear answers now that I am asking questions.

Row Z

Would you tell of the name of this additive company or the name of their additive. This might help others to not make the same mistake.

at lease have the black goo tested and the "additive" FTIR or IR maybe Ok or even a basic spectro should show goo and additive are high in Bismuth and are one in the same.

Sounds like it is the additive and it forms forms goo in high temp or in general a lousy product that ate you motors, yes sounds like clogged filter.

When they say additive is dispersed and does not settle out sounds like a "solid" lube that does at least filter out and is in pan.

Ask them to pay for new motor??

as I said a FTIR will show I think goo and New addtive from bottle are same crap then ask to money.
bruce

The main lubricating component "disassociates itself" and should "sacrifice" to the high heat , wear, and stress areas. Remaining there even after engine cooling.

sure did remain so well clogged engine, sorry but this is just psycho bable never heard these words before regarding any "real" oil additive "disassociates itself" and "sacrifice"

bruce

The product I used is called Enginall.
Thanks for the lab test ideas. I'm going to ship the samples today.

At this point I think I will stick with using good quality motor oil - no additives!

In conversations with the owner of the company, he just repeats that it is not his product that has caused the failures, so I have not even mentioned money. But if the lab reports back the way I expect, then I will ask them to help out with rebuild expense.
I geuss I don't really know if he would have any liability in this case or not.

Row Z

Is this who you got the additive from?


http://technicianstip.com/index.php

Yse Sir...thats where it came from.

JL,
Have you heard of Enginall before?, or ever used? I see your from WI? as is Enginall.

I live about 3 hours away from where this product is made. I have never heard of this product before or the company that makes it, but I will be trying to find out more information. I will be going to West Band next month to visit my cousin and if I have time, I will try to pay this company a visit.

I retired from the Shell/Pennzoil Company in 2005 after spending 21 years with Pennzoil and I will ask some of my oil contacts in WI if they know anything about this product.

Let me know if you find out any info from your contacts.

I just wonder if the product would be fine in a street engine. Maybe the product just won't stand up to the higher pump pressures/volume, and assembly clearences, heat,stress, etc in a race engine.
If thats the case then I just did the R&D for him, and I would have hoped he might step up and say he would like to dig into the situation deeper to understand what happened and why.
Expensive mistake on my part!

It destroyed 2 engines.

Are they ging to pitch in for new ones?

Also, my in house lab doesn't run for bismuth on the ICP. So you might want to send your samples somewhere that can do more advanced work.

I believe Herguth can do some magic with the electron microscope to id constuent parts.

Might be worth a call.

When I talked to the owner of the company, he simply stated that the failures must be due to other causes. His product would not cause this to happen. I never asked for help to repair or replace, though I had hoped he would offer, and maybe help investigate.
I'm not sure what testing the lab can, or will do on my samples, but I will be talking to them tomorrow.

quote:

and cut it open to find that the oil pump had colapsed the inner steel liner of the filter,

You wouldn't happen to have the in block bypass defeated, would you? If you have any idea where this practice traces back to "back in the day", I'd really like to know who came up with it.

The oddity in this is that the engines lasted so long with this stuff in them. I'm not saying that "It's a miracle you made it that far!". I'm saying that one would imagine that this would either be a progressive plugging of the filter (indicated on the pressure gauge) ..or somewhat immediate ..like after you added the stuff. One would also imagine that there would have been a tearing of the media if it was a progressive event ..while an "all at once" dose of the stuff would make that unlikely.

Just a side note on the bypass defeat technique. Fords and Mopars don't have this option. Their engine get no more tired then a Chebbie does.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: GeeAea,

Ok well Row Z you have to be careful when using an oil additive there are a lot of additives on the market that do not work. Well I guess you found out the hard way lol.
There are a few oil additives that actually do work. There are 3 major things in my opinion that you want to look for.

1. Make sure the product has had testing done and shows positive results. (There is no harmful effects to the engine in the long term)

2. That the product has documentation

3. The product has been SEO approved. Its expensive to have done that is why most companies/products have not done. This is what truckers look for. Because only a small amount of oil additives that go through the testing unless they work they wont pass.

If you go to http://www.oiladditive.tagzap.org they give you tips on using an oil additive what to look for, how you can benefit from it, etc. The product that they recommend has all 3 of these qualifications.

I checked it out got some for myself I increased my gas mileage by 12%. I got a lot of documentation from them something that might interest you is 2 racing companies use this product. Mustang racing being one.