nortones2: I am not familiar with the politics of the oil world, but AMSOIL has been working on the 505-01 spec since @2004, and if they say it meets the 01 spec, then I believe them. The new 5w-40 has been reformulatd to meet the spec. I run it in my TDI and I can tell you that it starts and rus smoother than it did with the factory Castrol

quote:

Originally posted by nortones2:
theheg: the Amsoil claims to meet VW 505.01, but is not approved by VW. Despite much talk on sites like BITOG, it does not seem to be known 1. whether Amsoil have requested VW approval 2. Ifthey have, whether the product is accepted for the VW list of over 70 products. Amsoil would have received confirmation in writing. 3 Submitted and have had the product rejected from the list.

Unless and until the Amsoil product is given VW approval, it can hardly claim a trademark belonging to VW. There can be no assumption of warranty cover from VW, in the event of failure.

Do you really think that just claiming (particular) specifications without meeting demands is policy of company like Amsoil? That for sure helped them to survive 33 years on (harsh) North American market!

I can assure you that claiming (any of) specification is too serious business (even for Wal-Mart) and there is no jokes about it. Mistakes could be easily traced and caught what results in (high) penalties.

Not approved by OEM! They know what the best for engine (and customer) is!
One thing for sure is that they know what the best is for them! Synthetic motor oils are known for 30 years and just in last (let’s say) 5 years they use them for factory filling! And vast majority of them still recommend drain periods of 3000 miles despite incomparable quality with petroleum oils. That is not strange to you?

On the other side there is no possibility of having warranty coverage refused (by any of manufacturers) if you know for Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act and what it states. There is possibility of having troubles though but quality of Amsoil synthetic oils is worth of fight!

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Djordan,

According to Amsoil news release from 1/9/2006 (see link)http://www.amsoil.com/articlespr/2006/pr_newafl.aspx
Their "European Car Formula 5W-40 now meets the VW505.01 specs.
Available online or through local distribution points. Online price $6.85/qt. Big savings over the Moto or ELF brands. Bardahl also has a formulation that meets spec. Available online for @ $60.00/cs/12L bottles with shipping.

Personally, my confidence goes to Amsoil ($6.50 per bottle purchased by case) despite Bardahl competitive price. Their policy and general approach about oil additives (well-known as snake oils) made it.

Re the stout defences of Amsoilm, which I have only just seen! If the specific Amsoil product is adequate to meet 505.01 then let it be submitted to test. So far, nothing has come to light on this: until then, its a crap-shoot for the consumer, who has (in the even harsher european market), over 70 competitor oils available and given VW/Audi/Seat/Skoda approval in writing.

Yes, you’re right. They are (very successfully) doing crap-shots for over 34 years and only because of that they support products with INDEFINITE warranty. (Poor) customers need someone to stop them! FTC searches didn’t have an outcome. Maybe you have some good idea?

I’d be very disappointed if you, while purchasing, do not ask approvals, test results and safety confirmations for bolts, nuts, chemicals, tires, food, toys, … Manufacturers do not know their products quite enough to claim particular quality so there have to be someone else to confirm their quality. And, you are buying – just quality, isn't it?

I just talked to the lubricants national product manager at NAPA. He said that Castrol has a contractual agreement with Volkswagen to produce this oil exclusivly for Volkswagen. They will not release it to other distributors. I said is sounds like a scam dosent it? He said absolutely. He said even after they release it for real distribution that Volkswagen will get a kickback on every gallon they sell. I doubt that the spec has a spcificity that another oil cannot meet. It is just a scam.
Can anyone here say class action lawsuit?

Its a pretty poor scam that has over 70 competitor products available. In the USA there are Elf, Motul, Quaker State and possibly other oils which comply with 505.01. Maybe even Amsoil when its got approval. VW 506.01 oils (fully synthetic) are also suitable for PD engines. In addition, for DPF equipped vehicles the 507 spec is available.

Just for your info - one more scum from Amsoil! Their answer for 2007 diesel engines (PDF equipped) is DEO, SAE 5W-40 (API CJ-4) diesel motor oil.
But, you're looking only for OEM approved oils, isn't it?

Hello Colin, you sound like the man who knows the answer to my question, so i hope you can help me, or anyone else.

Sorry all other members to butt into the thread like this.

I have the car below in my signiture, simple question for you probably, should i use a 10w40 or 5w40, given weather conditions, and driving in London(uk), and the wish to reduce valve and drivetrain noise, and must it be Semi-Synthetic oil.

I do some driving on Motorways also, if anyone driving the same car model, and that uses what they think is a great oil for the car, please let me know.

Your help would be a real help

regards
Livio

quote:

Originally posted by Livio:
... should i use a 10w40 or 5w40, given weather conditions, and driving in London(uk), and the wish to reduce valve and drivetrain noise, and must it be Semi-Synthetic oil.

Sorry to not being Colin but probably this helps in general approach about motor oils.

Semi-synthetic oil! Why?
If you (or anyone else) believe that petroleum oils are better over synthetic ones what would be the purpose of (intentionally) degrading them with synthetic part?
If your opinion is that synthetic oils are better (and they are in all technical aspects!) wouldn’t be the real nonsense to notably degrade them by adding petroleum part?
So, go for preferably "full" one - petroleum or synthetic. I’d recommend synthetic but your word is “the last one”.

Viscosity? If VW recommends 5W-40 I can’t see a convincing reason why you couldn’t use it. But, waiting a little bit for other suggestions and experiences won’t make harm.

Thanks Djordan, but now you've put in another question, and that is, why do they then still produce Semi-Synthetics if 'Fully-Synthetics' are so much better?

I'd like to use 'Fully', and i'll probably 'bite-the-bullet' and change the oil to it.

But what i've also found out is that, my VW manual gives only there VW spec number (which i think are old specs, something like 501.000/505.000).

When you ask oil companies regarding the car's oil, they will say the best for the car is 5w30 or 5w40 'Fully', but then they will go on to say 'If your car is not following an extended service regime' you can use a 10w40 'Semi', why would they mention this.

I don't know what an 'extended service regime is, i only know i get the oil, oil and filter changed every 5000mile.

I just want to use the best oil for the engine running (redice engine noise), and engine protection for the car, without putting it at risk of damage (leaking Seals) by using a 'Fully' when i should be sticking to a 'Semi'

If you can offer anymore enlightenment, i'd be grateful.

regards

Just to let anyone know, i've just got info (from Castrol) relating to wheather the use of a 'Fully' or 'Semi' can be used for my VW, and probably any VW, Audi, Skoda, Seat, and prosume, the same 'PR' rule probably applies.

Apparently on the cars above 'Data sheet's' there is a 'PR' code, the code for VW is 'QG1', this denotes it has an 'Extended service regime oil', and therefore the use of 'Fully-synthetic' oils is required, if this is not present on the data sheet, then the optimum oil should be a 'Semi-synthetic', 'Fully' should not really be considered, apparently this can be inportant to the running, and engine care maintenance.

My particular model does not have the 'PR' code 'QG1'on it's data sheet.

I will call VW, to see if i can confirm this with them.

regards

quote:

Originally posted by Livio:
... why do they then still produce Semi-Synthetics if 'Fully-Synthetics' are so much better?

Unfortunately I do not know exact answer. But, let me assume it. When Amsoil introduced synthetic lubricants in North American market (1972) all other manufacturers were ‘hard opposition’. It doesn’t mean that they didn’t know about synthetics. Simply, they didn’t want let customers know that something else (and better) is available. The game called ‘3000 miles oil change’ functioned perfectly (works well even today) and it was considered that letting knowledge spread would take (lot of, actually) many away of them. In meantime all of those manufacturers who have damned ‘first heretic’ Amsoil joined him and all of them today have and advertise (carefully dosed because of money again) synthetic lubricants.
The majority of the customers do not have enough technical knowledge to read and understand oil data but great part of them have heard about ‘much better oils’. Based on it greedy manufacturers found out one more way to take money out of our pockets improving petroleum oils by adding a synthetic part in it. Indirectly, it is admission that synthetic oils are better and that ‘first heretic’ was right before 35 years. But, despite (advertised) improved oil characteristic they still recommend 3000 miles oil drains. That still brings them money and that is in their focus – nothing else. Who cares about environment, natural resources, customers… If they cared for customers and everything else what they claim about they’d more advertise UAO and made it more accessible and cheaper allowing customers to use all available resources fully leaving a little bit more resources for future generations.

quote:

I don't know what an 'extended service regime is, I only know I get the oil and filter changed every 5000mile.

Having in mind that you live in Europe(an London) I wonder about it. Almost all Europe is on extended drains for longer time. I can easily recall use of synthetic oils for 10.000 kms in far early seventies without having an even idea about UAO. Today things are changed for better. Oils are more durable and, with UAO, you can additionally check its condition and what is happening in engine (what is more important actually!).
I, personally, am kind of stubborn. Not liking that someone else (OEM) dictate me what to do and when I begun with extended oil drains long time ago and still practice them with all my vehicles. My car is at 20.000 kms and friend’s SUV is at 32.000 kms without oil change, for instance. So, my recommendation will be obvious: go for extended drains.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Djordan,

Thanks Djordan, i understand your point, and i agree with it completely , that's one of the reasons why i've got in contact with VW on exactly this point.

Although i don't have this 'PR' code 'QG1', why should this then mean i still can't use a better quality oil if the car can physically eccept it, run better, and may even help to prolong it's life span.

I would fully eccept that i may have to still do a 'Fixed service regime' (i don't know why, but it has to be still done according to Shell & Castrol), but i'm prepared to eccept this.

All i ask, is that if car manufacturers would have a broader outlook on what there cars can, and carn't actally use in the way of oil, and tell us what oils would benifit there engines.

Not neccesarily by just satisfying the customer that the engine will run to spec using a particular, or poorer oil type, and knowing the car will still need more regular servicing, so the maker thinks there saving us the extra cost burden of using a better oil, because some of us want to use a higher quality oil instead of the 'make do' type.

I have just received information from Shell regarding the use of a 'Fully- synthetic' 5w30 over a 'Semi-synthetic' 10w40, for my particular VW car model, given that the model has a 'Fixed service regime'.

I am told that there is no benifit 'what so ever' in using the 'Fully' over the 'Semi', although there may be a very slight protection increase, it is regarded as negligable, and this is itself not fully proven, for this type of VW engine.

The engineering has been built around the use of VW's own lubricating systems and technologys, which is match into Shells and other brands of oil through VW's ' Semi-synthetic' oil specification, and so 'Semi-synthetic 10w40' is regarded the optimum oil for this car.

It is also considered that 'Fully' 5w30 viscose oil, would not reduce engines running noise for this VW engine type.

I did call VW and log the query, i'm awaiting a comunnication from them, so i'll add it to the thread, when i get any info.

regards

Just some info, VW did get back to me via a telephone call, the cars details had already been taken prior to this call.

When i asked "could i use a 'fully' over a 'semi-synthetic' oil, given my Polo model engine type?"

They replied 'yes', and infact highly recommended using it instead of a 'semi', it would certainly increase engine protection, and running.

When i asked, "i have fond out recently that a PR code 'QG1' represents a 'Extended service regime', and that it is not present on the cars 'Data lable', is this also an indicator to which oil should be used?"

There reply to this was 'no', it is present on engine models, purely as an indicator that this type of service interval is allowed, providing the oil type used meeets VW approval specification to conform with it, we still recommended changing the engine oil more regularly if possible, regardless of the way it is used, or it's service PR code value.

When i asked, "There are two VW oil approval specifications in the 'User Manual, VW 500.00 & VW 502.00, does this mean that any oil with these specifications is the engines optimum oil?"

There reply, 'No', and that the new VW oil specifications for my model are VW 501.01 & VW 502.00, these approval codes only give the minimum oil quality that can be used in my engine model i.e if a buget branded oil met this quality, with these specs, then it could be used, but it may not be the best in quality, VW will always recommend using an oil reputed for its high quality, and with VW's approval rating.

When i asked, "would using a fully-synthetic pose any risk to 'Seal' or 'Gasket' damage, as the car was 7 years old, the VW dealer recommendation is Quantum Sytha Sliver 10w-40 for my car, but that i wish to use a viscosity of 5w-40, would this be problem to the engine, oil pressure, or the running of the hydraulic valves?"

There reply to this was, 'No', there is no risk to the engine seals, gaskets, or oil pathways when using a fullysynthetic on your model year, and that if oil leaks where to occure, this would indicate that oil leaking was in occurence before fullysynthetic had been used, all VW vehicles that are not older than 10 years can use a fully-synthetic oil, cars over the 10 year period should look to specific 'user manual' instruction for types and grades for there model. There would also be no problem in using a viscose grade of 5w-40, providing it met with our approval ratings, and that in-fact, using this grade would again be a further positive move to increase protection at cold startup, while maintaining it's hot viscosity value at full engine temperature.

I replied, "does that mean i could therefore consider using a 0w-40 grade fully-synthetic oil for the Polo, without risk?"

....the engine technician consulted for a moment, i assume with a others......

...and came back with, 'Yes' you could also use a 0w-40 viscose grade, VW ratings approved, and this would again give even greater cold-start protection, the lower the 'w' rating the better the flow at ambient lower temperature for starting the engine, the '40' element in oil grade should be maintained i.e not reduced as the oil will still maintain a lubricating viscose structure, at extream high engine temperatures that may occure, it is also considered that using oils with lower 'W' and higher 'hot viscose' values will generally keep an engine fully protected, maintaining oil pressure, but that a narrow grade gap will reduce engine life.

I then asked, "would using a 0w-40 fully-synthetic garde have any effect on the engines noise, especially the tappets and driveetrain?"

His reply to this was, 'Yes' there should be a reduced difference in engine noise, an oil grade of 0w-40 will generally pressurize sooner.

The enquiry was then completed.

I have now decided to give the Motul Ester based Product 8100 E-Tech 0w-40 a go, it has my VW approval specs, so i'll let you know any cncluesions i come to.

regards

Simply, answers to your questions are made by honest professional. All of them were solely based on techdata not on personal affinities or company interests. Comparison with replies made by Shell representative will easily make same conclusions as mine ones about most of the lubricant manufacturers – out of their focus definitely are customers’ benefits. If it weren’t like that why that particular one ‘professional’ would try to convince you that there are no practical synthetics advantages over semi-synthetics. Having his advice in mind there is no way for me to consider use of Shell synthetics ever! Didn’t he explicitly tell you/us that there is no actual benefit?
Therefore, welcome to the synthetics club. Spice your new habit with UOA and after a while you’ll become experienced fan.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Djordan,

To all regarding the Great VW oil debate (I have an 06 Jetta by the way and have been using the Amsoil "VW" spec product with success for 25k mi), beware of the resposne you get from dealers and retailers. As a boat builder and professional technical journalist in the recreational boating industry I have found that these folks on the other end of the phone or computer keyboard frequently answer questions incorrectly, often just becasue they want to be helpful. When seeking reliable information that passes the test of publication of several hundred thousand copies of a magazine w/o an expert calling me on an error, I alsways seek information directly from the factory or manufacturer, preferably in writing.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Gear Head,

Hi Livio - apologies for not returning your enquiry earlier but I would fully concurr with the info you got from VW and listed on the 13th January.

Simply moving up in spec usually offers much more engine protection and the manufacturers are always seeking to improve the longevity and reliability of their products. Oil companies respond by employing companies like Lubrizol to develop the additive packages required. With a quality branded lubricant the oils are matched to the vehicle manufacturers requirement which is usually to be better than the spec they had before.
The result is better oils which last longer, give more engine protection, reduce exhaust emmisions.
Fully synthetic oils are less prone to oxidisation and offer a higher performance level than the minerals particularly at extreme upper or lower temperatures.
Naturally the oil companies also make these 'better' oils downward compatible so people, like you, who are interested in their oils and want the best for their engines are happy to use the most modern oil technology even though there is an increased cost.
The basic spec required for your Polo is the VW 505.00 which can be met with a mineral oil, The semi-synthetic oils meet the 505.01 and the long life 506.01 requires the fully synthetic 5w/40. You have opted for the 5w/40 fully syn which will give you good service.
The latest VW spec is for the 507.00 which complies with the latest Euro 4 requirements for exhaust emmisions and flexible drain intervals. To complicate matters further this oil is a 5w/30
I would refer to the last response by Gear Head. He is dead right in that information can be misleading and the vehicle manufacurer is usually the one who knows what is best for their vehicles