forums.noria.com Message Boards Car and Truck Lubrication Which of these oils is better?|
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Premium Member - 250 or more posts |
The following are three oils, all 40 weight multigrades. The words in parenthesis are what the MSDS sheet says for each CAS number listed. Oils A and B are semi-synthetic blends that the company says are about 30% synthetic (per phone call). My understanding (and I could be wrong) is that the CAS numbers mean the following:
64742-65-0: Group I 64742-54-7: Groups II, II+, and/or III 68037-01-4: Group IV (PAO) ------------------------------------- Oil A 10w40 (API SL/SJ, CF, ACEA A3): 74-84% CAS 64742-54-7 (Base Oil) 100C Viscosity: 13.9 40C Viscosity: 92.3 Viscosity Index: 154 Flash Point (COC) (C): 234 Pour Point (C): -39 CCS cP (C): 5700 @ -25C MRV TP-1 cP (C): 21000 @ -30C NOACK % off @ 250C: 13 Releases: Ford M2C-153G GM 6094M Chrysler MS-6395F ------------------------------------ Oil B 15w40 (API SL/SJ, CF, ACEA A3): 23-33% CAS 64742-54-7 (Hydrotreat) 51-61% CAS 64742-65-0 (Solvent Dewax) 100C Viscosity: 14.0 40C Viscosity: 105.6 Viscosity Index: 141 Flash Point (COC) (C): 232 Pour Point (C): -36 CCS cP (C): 5700 @ -20 MRV TP-1 cP (C): 17000 @ -25 NOACK % off @ 250C: 9 Releases: Ford M2C-153G GM 6094M Chrysler MS-6395F MIL-A-A-52306 CID ------------------------------------- Oil C 10w40 (API SL/SJ) 64-74% CAS 64742-65-0 (Aliphatic Petroleum Distillate) 12-22% CAS 68037-01-4 (Synthetic) 100C Viscosity: 13.5 40C Viscosity: not provided Viscosity Index: not provided Flash Point (COC) (C): 242 Pour Point (C): -36 CCS cP (C): 7000 @-25 MRV TP-1 cP (C): 21000 @ -30 NOACK % off @ 250C: less than 15 Releases: None listed |
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Double Platinum Member - 100 or more posts |
@TallPaul
Better in terms of what? I guess product number 3 is cheapest, is that true? |
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Premium Member - 250 or more posts |
I was specifically looking for your input, but hoping to hear something more like, "the CAS # on oil X indicates a better quality base oil" or "Oil Y is much more robust than ..." Hmmm, maybe there is not a significant difference. But I think you would favor A and B for their releases. All run about the same price, but sales generally tend to see better pricing on C. I can tell you what they are, but seriously am hoping to get your opinion on which is the better oil for general use in an older vehicle. It certainly seems to me that A is better than B, because of the higher proportion of hydrotreated base oil, for example, but the PAO content in C is interesting, but perhaps not enough to make it better than A.
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Double Platinum Member - 100 or more posts |
Well, in general you are right that I would tend to say that OIl A and B seemto be better.
I personally would rather go to a 5W-40 then to a 10W-X or 15W-X. (Fuel Economy in the winter time) The seperation of the influence of the base oil concerning performance is really difficult. There is no engine test available (at least I don't know one) which could seperate a good Group II+ oil from a PAO. Don't tell me Synlube or Mobil 1 is the solution. That's simply good marketing. I can't tell you which is the best oil from those without additional data simply by looking at the base oils. Any fresh oil TBN numbers available? |
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Double Platinum Member - 100 or more posts |
quote: |
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Double Platinum Member - 100 or more posts |
Well, in general you are right that I would tend to say that OIl A and B seem to be better.
I personally would rather go to a 5W-40 then to a 10W-X or 15W-X. (Fuel Economy in the winter time) The seperation of the influence of the base oil concerning performance is really difficult. There is no engine test available (at least I don't know one) which could seperate a good Group II+ oil from a PAO. Don't tell me Synlube or Mobil 1 is the solution. That's simply good marketing. I can't tell you which is the best oil from those without additional data simply by looking at the base oils. Any fresh oil TBN numbers available?[/QUOTE][/QUOTE] |
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Premium Member - 250 or more posts |
Thanks Callisa. TBN on the company data sheets is 8 for each of these three. I will see if any VOA's are listed on the Oil Guy site with TBN. I agree 5w40 would be great winter oil, but that is synthetic and $4 or more a quart. I would not trust a dino or blend 5w40, nor do I expect such is even produced.
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Double Platinum Member - 100 or more posts |
TallPaul,
To hand Mineral Paraffininc Base Oil - 64742-54-7; VI of +94 to 120, any group. Mineral Naphthenic Base Oil - 64741-96-4; VI of -15, any group. Mineral Aromatic Base Oil - 64742-03-7; VI of -185, any group. Hydrotreated paraffininc, heavy - 64742-52-5 Hydrotreated paraffinic, light - 64742-53-6 PAO's: 68649-12-7, 68037-01-4, 163149-29-9, 151006-63-2, 151006-62-1, 151006-60-9. VII's of +155 or greater. Diester - 28472-97-1; VII's average +170. VII Copolymers - 127883-08-3 Additives: ZDDP Type Adds: 68649-42-3, XXXXX-46-6. Calcium Sulfonates: 61789-86-4 Moly Dithiophosphate - 68958-92-7 or 68958-92-9 Moly Disulfide Powders - 1317-33-5 M1 Supersyn Antiwear Technology This is a Polyol TME Polyol esters have lower coefficients of friction than either diesters or PAO's. By adding a polyol ester at least 5-10% to a PAO or mineral oil reduces base oil friction remarkably. So esters are natural Friction Modifiers. They are also polar and M1 uses Moly. Shell and Castrol use Group III but the more refined version with nearly same performace but at reduced cost. Choice depends on what car and use. |
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Premium Member - 250 or more posts |
quote:Hi MGBV8. Nice to see you over here at Noria. I like this forum as it is more global in participation. Also, no company sponsors so sponsor oils are not pushed, or should I say there is not a set of sponsors that you should not criticize too much. Anyway, I recall MolaKule saying something about the firction mod effect of esters. I am more interested in the start up protection and am thinking as little as 5 percent probably gives a significant start up protection. But I wonder if a lower precentage would do. Callisa: So how does one intelligently choose an oil? Seems me as the novice must go with a company that seems trustworthy. I will stick with Valvoline for now. The A & B are Valvoline Durablend; the C is Valvoline Maxlife. Thanks |
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Double Platinum Member - 100 or more posts |
TallPaul,
I'm very lucky in that the following is a MG Owner and provides oil advice http://www.noria.com/service/cv/Martin%20WilliamsonCV.asp and provided the advice re mixing! I've tried Castrol re esters but only confirmed RS has esters could be just 3% for say additive carrier but if GIII would this be necessary? |
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Premium Member - 250 or more posts |
Looks like you have an excellent advisor, MGBV8. I would be interested in the mixing, if you can release that info.
What is RS? |
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Double Platinum Member - 100 or more posts |
@MGBV8
The Shell XHVI Group III is rather expensive, compared to Group III oils from other Companies. I don't know the source of Castrol, but they buy their base oil for sure somewhere elese and don't produce it themselves. quote: My personal hardwarestore oil is rather cheap, a 5W-40 and pour Group III. Group I is included to dilute the additives into the oil. Look at the total perormance of an oil, not the base oil. quote: Look what your Car manufacturer recommends and stay with oil quality. About 90 % of all vehicles in Germany which don't have long oil drain intervals, are capable of using ACEA A3/B4 oils. That's a reasonable and affordable choice for average users. |
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Double Platinum Member - 100 or more posts |
TallPaul
Advice already provided on BITOG Castrol RS is Fully Synthetic Motorsport Oil Callisa, If you are looking for ester content this should improve start up, but information not provided by Oil companies only hype from Magnatec. |
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Double Platinum Member - 100 or more posts |
A good data sheet gives you Pour point, pumping and crancing viscosity according SAE J300 Spec.
The Infuence during cold start is more related to pour point depressant and type of VI's used in Ester free oils. I am personally not looking for Esters, I have mixed feelings with them, but not enough data to prove this. |
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Double Platinum Member - 100 or more posts |
Callisa
I'm looking for esters as they are are polarized and the oil is attracted to bare surfaces and is trying to spread to wherever there isn't any oil.That is one of the key advantages to an ester based synthetic. Once you put this type of product in you never start metal to metal, even after a year there should be a one, one millionth inch of film. Even if the car has been in storage. This is completely untrue of petroleum oil regardless of who makes it. Petroleum will come off just from it's own weight in time. This to me seams a good idea apart from their performance above PAO. |
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Premium Member - 250 or more posts |
MGBV8: Can you PM (at BITOG) the link to the appropriate thread to see the Noria contact's advice?
Callisa: As MGBV8 is looking for the special cling protection of esters, so am I. He could go straight Redline, but that is very expensive. I have contacted the Redline technical person and they have told me that I should not expect any additive clash by mixing half a quart to a quart of Redline oil into my crankcase. This would give me the "ester edge" that Castrol claims to offer in their new "Start Up" (presumably Magnatec for the USA), but will not release the amount of ester. As you say, cold properties are important. I believe MRV is the best indicator, followed by CCS, and lastly pour point. But pour point is the only one useful to compare oils across different "w" numbers, since CCS and MRV are tested at different temperatures per different "w" numbers. Or do you know how to convert the CCS and MRV between "w" numbers? The ester should help on the cold start, warm starts, and all the time by clinging to the metal. And the esters likely would provided extra protection against deposits since by clinging to the metal they will be in the way off deposits. They may even to some degree push existing deposits off as they "fight" for contact with the metal, at least it seems that is how the esters in Auto-Rx are supposed to work. Yes total package performance is important but in general it seems the higher oil groups would be the better deal, especially at the same price. I also realize some Group I is sometimes needed for additive solubility, but does not ester also provide the same additive solubility advantage? |
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Double Platinum Member - 100 or more posts |
quote: Yeah, this is an advantage of esters. quote: Yes, I see this the same way. quote: I guess this is impossible. quote: Hm. No, this is not the way things work.... Dispersants are the key for deposit control, and nothing but dispersants. If you look into oil analysis during a complete engine life, and you overdrain the service intervals 4-5 times, you'll see that Nitrates and Nitrateesters will accumulate. These are polar components, having their origin in blowby gases. These are sludge precursors. As they are polar, they stick on the metal the same way esters do. This is the reason why you see sludge most of the time first after 4-6 years old vehicles. If you would drain more often in between, you could get rid of those sludge precursors. Having ester based oil may result in faster accumulation of those molecules. But I have no data, I don't know if this is true. |
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Double Platinum Member - 100 or more posts |
Not sure I follow
One of benefits Detergency/Dispersency: The polar nature of esters also makes them good solvents and dispersants. This allows the esters to solubilize or disperse oil degradation by-products which might otherwise be deposited as varnish or sludge, and translates into cleaner operation and improved additive solubility in the final lubricant. Auto rx looks a good cleaner! |
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Premium Member - 250 or more posts |
quote: Fascinating! This tells me that running a synthetic is no gaurentee that you will not get sludge. Also, the polar nature of the blowby byproducts leads me to think one does not want too thin an oil (thinner film, more blowby, right?). But esters helping sludge formation... did I understand correctly? Yes, I agree dispersants are key for deposit control. I guess I was speculating when I said the esters likely would prevent deposits by clinging to the metal. Thanks |
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Double Platinum Member - 100 or more posts |
quote: If course not. quote: It could this way, or the other way... I don't know at this moment, I have to read a little literature and think about this. quote: Sounds good. I'll check that out. I have only few experience with ester oils. quote:...there is a lot more inside, also polar products. |
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