Here's a uoa for my Civic at 375k miles with Red Line oil. I was using 10w-40 because of oil consumption and with the 10w-40 is was less than 1/2 quart per 5k miles. The viscosity has stepped through 5w-30, 10w-30, then the 10w-40 thru the years. The head has never been off and no major repair work other than a camshaft and valve seals at 200K+ miles becuse of one bad lobe, the other lobes were in perfect condition. I check the valves every 30k miles, now (was 15k) because they just don't need to be adjusted much. I'm very picky about the adjustment and they have never been more than a couple of thou's off. If this is a terrible uoa, I'll take it. This car is 21 years old, driven all the time and gets 37-40 mpg and runs great. The compression is right on new car specs and it passes California smog every two years. So, if Red Line is no good for everyone else, it's good enough for me.

Alum 3
Chrom 1
Iron 8
Copper 7
Lead 6
Tin 1
Moly 415
Nickel 0
Manganese 0
Silver 0
Titanium 0
Potassium 10 usual with RL
Boron 29
Silicon 7
Sodium 22 usual with RL
Calcium 2423
Magnesium 10
Phosphorus 1002
Zinc 1016
Barium 0
Flash 425
Fuel <0.5
A/F 0.0
Water 0.0
Insolubles 0.4
TBN 4.5
6,105 miles on oil sample

UOA looks pretty good to me, other than zddp seems to have depleted quite a bit considering it is around 1500 ppm (IIRC) in the new Redline.

quote:

This car is 21 years old, driven all the time and gets 37-40 mpg and runs great. The compression is right on new car specs and it passes California smog every two years. So, if Red Line is no good for everyone else, it's good enough for me.

That's fine and I mean that. But, the engineer in me has to ask the question, "How many similar vehicles are out there that can make similar claims while using good ol' $1.00 a quart (or less) dino oil (that meets the vehicle specifications) changed regularly?" You have no idea since your data base is only one car, . . . YOURS!

I don't get promoted and/or establish a good reputation at my job in my industry by providing the most expensive answer that solves the problem long term, just the opposite.

Chumley

I actually agree with your statement that one dollar a quart oil might do just as well. I just don't know of one. An indicator that I am going by for wear, is not the uoa, but valve adjustments. I used to check the clearances every 15k miles, but for years its been 30k miles. I can't remember the last time a valve was off more than a thou or two, and I'm picky. I did a double Auto-RX cycle and the filter, on the rinse cycle picked up hardly any crud. This engine is extremely clean inside and I don't know if I'd get that with dyno oil. I know is popular to take shots at Red Line, especially the price, but for me, it is doing the job just fine. Maybe we can answer your questions about long term performance in another 10 years. Right now, it's too soon.

That's funny. In 1982 I bought an 82 Audi Coupe with the 2.14 Liter 5 cyl OHC WE engine and a manual 5 speed transmission. It had solid lifters and the service manual suggested (under normal service) that I change the oil (using API SE grade) every 7500 miles, the oil filter every 15,000 and adjust the valves every 30,000. For the next 14 years (along with all the improvements in oil quality) I changed the oil every 5,000 miles using standard dino oil that meets the current specifications (which are better than those called out in the owners manual), the oil filter every 10,000. (Of course it was a stock vehicle unmodified from the day it was built) Well, after driving the car 90,000 miles and wasting several valve cover gaskets (at 30,000 mile intervals) without making a single valve adjustment, I figured I was doing something right, and stopped checking the valve clearance which never needed any adjustment from day one. At 210,000 miles I sold the car (there was no sludge anywhere in the engine and it didn't burn any oil) which still met it's initial fuel mileage specs and met the local emission standards to my neighbor who later moved and I have no further history about the vehicle. It's just one car, but as an engineer myself I can tell you that the those at Audi who engineered that car were pretty conservative, as long as you keep up on the maintenance. IMO, those who whine about sludged up engines are like the obese guys who swear that they don't eat too much while insisting that they regurlarly work out. Please, . . . it's insulting to those of us who know better. Call the local news media, they're the only ones dumb enough to listen. My next Audi is currently doing better than the last one.

And I didn't spend a penny on oil analysis or synthetic oil, nor do I intend to. Nice try Molafool and Barry Liesome.

Of course, if my owners manual suggested that I should use synthetic oil, I would at a moments notice. But it would only be lubricants that clearly meet my specific vehicle specifications. It's your choice, you decide! If you know more about the vehicle you bought/drive than those who designed and built it, well, . . . we will all wonder why you did that and eagerly await you latest product.

Chumley

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Chumley,

Do we have to play childish games with peoples names? Why don't you go to BITOG and debate these fellows directly instead of smearing them on other sites.

The 5-cylinder Audi has hydraulic lifters..... I owned an 84 4000S Quattro. The best driving piece of junk in the world. That car ate water pumps, alternators, batteries and allignments. It was carefully maintained and was too much trouble to keep, typical Audi of those years. It handled well, had great breaks and blew the fuel pump fuses as quick as I could replace them until I rewired the circuit. You're right about the engine lasting a long time, those cars couldn't run long enough to wear out.

It seems to me that the whole purpose of a site like this is twofold: 1. for knowledgeable people to have intelligent debates and exchange information and ideas, and 2. for the intellectually and pragmatically curious like myself to learn as much as we can from those who know more than we do.

Chumley, you have made the same point, and it is a very good point, in three separate posts in this thread, with an increasingly condescending tone. I'm sure we all understood you very well the first time. There is no logical contradiction between agreeing with you and still searching for more and possibly better answers. And TallPaul is right about the names. If you think somebody is wrong, then cite and explain, as an engineer, specific points of contention; that is all that is necessary.

quote:

Originally posted by TallPaul:
Do we have to play childish games with peoples names? Why don't you go to BITOG and debate these fellows directly instead of smearing them on other sites.

I would be thrilled to do that, however, for whatever their reasons, I was banned from posting there. Imagine that? America, the country of free speach? You really think so? Well, that's not the case if you post at BLOB. Whenever their self appointed experts disagree with you and they think you hinder their agenda or that of their advertisers, they ban you. Get a grip on reality. Of course, if you are as dumb as dirt, you've got lifetime membership at BLOB. (you do)

What I did isn't childish. (that's just the dumb guy take) It's actually very smart. I did what I did so my comments won't regularly show up on the common search engines. That way, I can avoid/minimize having future oil discussions with people like you, Smaulpaul AKA, Mr. Oil Minimumoligist.

Chumley

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Chumley,

quote:

Originally posted by Barkerman:
The 5-cylinder Audi has hydraulic lifters..... I owned an 84 4000S Quattro. The best driving piece of junk in the world. That car ate water pumps, alternators, batteries and allignments. It was carefully maintained and was too much trouble to keep, typical Audi of those years. It handled well, had great breaks and blew the fuel pump fuses as quick as I could replace them until I rewired the circuit. You're right about the engine lasting a long time, those cars couldn't run long enough to wear out.

Thats funny, since I had a similar car, it wasn't my experience at all. The person you sold it to is probably still driving it, unless they got in a serious accident. In which case it probably saved their life! Chances are you're just too ignorant/cheap to own, drive, maintain, and appreciate a German car.

My suggestion: buy a Toyota, or the current US generated junk pile. Ford and GM are currently losing money and selling their products at below cost while closing plants and laying off workers. Give 'em a hand! AudiAG is currently making money, isn't offering rebates, and has a 6-12 week (depending on the model ordered) customer waiting list.

Passing a course in business/grammar/spelling might help you too!

Chumley

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Chumley,

Chumley, you stated, "Chances are you're just too ignorant/cheap to own, drive, maintain, and appreciate a German car."

Don't you realize that you've just given an implicit argument for the contention that German cars are not well engineered? (Which seems at least prima facie to be a ridiculous idea.)

Either 1) you're right, but thus have thrown your own engineering expertise into question by insisting that they'll last forever, or 2) you're wrong, and thus have thrown your engineering expertise into question by insisting that their real quality lies in some otherworldly aura of Germanness that exists apart from their engineering.

Perhaps YOU would benefit from a course or two in critical, syntactical, and semantic reasoning.

It seems to me that you were booted from BITOG not because they disagreed with you but because you are an aggressive, condescending jerk. This is like giving a disciplinary lecture to one of my unruly high-schoolers. I'm through with you.

Thanks very much to everyone who was willing to help and give advice to one who realizes how much he has to learn.

Chumley, I'm happy that you had good luck with your Audi. Mine was not so good. I wish you were around, then, to help me with my Audi. I know, now , through your explination that is was all my fault and I'm too stupid to own a fine German car. I had my chance and blew it. I'm stuck with the Honda that I bought that same year, 1984, and still drive, every day. I often say to myself, when driving the Honda, that I wish I had my Audi back. Oh were, oh were is my long lost Audi. At least you are here to correct my
grammar and spelling. Better late, than never. You may have been kicked of BITOG

didn't finish.... computer problem....

I think my last sentense go cut off..

This is off topic, but I see that Chumley is back to pronouncing his lubrication expertise and superiority once again.

Chumley, we all can't be engineers, tribologists, specialists, and the like. However, that should NOT shun us from asking questions, stupid or not, trying to find out information, free or not, and learning what we can to make an INFORMED decision about one of the most expensive "investments" that the average working stiff purchases in his/her lifetime.

It takes time and effort to search through all of the bull and useless information on the internet, so it is not "free" per se. How much is your time worth to you? Must be a pretty price tag considering the way you strut around your expertise and formal education.

I'll shut up now, and let this topic get back to the enjoyable process of input/output and exchanging of ideas/information/opinions/experiences and stuff like that.