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Since last April I have been routinely adding 1 ounce of 2-cycle oil (TC3W or whatever the high standard stuff is) to each 4 gallons of gasoline in my vehicles. I figure it is going to help lube fuel pump, injectors, rings (especially on start up when oil has drained off cyl walls), valves, etc. Also may help keep things clean. Any thoughts?
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Due to the rather thin mix ratio I doubt it will do any harm. Problem is I doubt it would do much good at such a thin ratio either. I say thin because regular mix ratio's for 2 stroke oil is from 1:16 to 1:50. So at .25 oz. to the gallon that would be 1/10th of the 1:50 ratio, thin. Using a additive designed for 4 cycle engines would provide adequate lubricity at 1:400 ratio or 1.28 oz. to 4 gallons. You would be using just slightly more but getting better lubrication along with additional benefits like cleaning up the fuel system and helping with water contamination.
I have had (8) Honda Accords since the 1970's. I personally drove all of them to about 125,000 miles. Two were purchased by a neighbor - he took one to 280,000 miles and was pissed he didn't make 300,000. The trunk rusted through and would not support the gas tank. The 2nd he currently owns and it has about 240,000 miles. None of these cars has needed any injector work (admittedly some had carbs) and only one fuel pump was replaced.

I just don't see the need...or benefit.

By the way mixed into the (8) Honda's was one Mercedes that spent more time in the shop that all the Accords combined. One was enough.

John from Pa
quote:
Originally posted by TallPaul:
Since last April I have been routinely adding 1 ounce of 2-cycle oil (TC3W or whatever the high standard stuff is) to each 4 gallons of gasoline in my vehicles. I figure it is going to help lube fuel pump, injectors, rings (especially on start up when oil has drained off cyl walls), valves, etc. Also may help keep things clean. Any thoughts?


I tried this with a Acura Integra GSR. Went from 28mpg to 30mpg. Smile

The problem in the longrun is the cat converters clogging up..

quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
I think a product like MMO might be better, it is an upper cylinder lubricant and it will keep fuel injectors from getting clogged. I run 4 ounces of MMO to 10 gallons of fuel and it is keeping my carburetor running perfect.


MMO is great stuff! But... 2-Cycle is cheaper.

Anyone had any experience doing this with DIESEL fuel?

[Update 5/16/09: Seems like it works well in Diesel but some have commented that Power Service as an additive does a better job because you get a cetane boost amongst other things not just a lubrication boost.]

@TallPaul: You might be interested in this
http://www.thedieselstop.com/f...lowing-smoke-188966/
Last edited by ebolamonkey
Before using MMo in the fuel I like to run a bottle of fuel injector cleaner followed by a Maintenance Dose of MMO. It is important to make sure the fuel system is clean.

A Maintenance Dose of MMO will do many things:

1) Lube the fuel system
2) Upper Cylinder Lubricant
3) Keep fuel injectors clean

The 2-Cycle Oil is just going to be a top end lube, it has no cleaning abilities and it will not keep the fuel system clean like MMO.

Since using MMO I have noticed a 2 m.p.g. improvement, I feel the MMO is keeping the valves sealed and clean as well as keeping the fuel injectors free of carbon.
quote:
Originally posted by John from PA:
I have had (8) Honda Accords since the 1970's. I personally drove all of them to about 125,000 miles. Two were purchased by a neighbor - he took one to 280,000 miles and was pissed he didn't make 300,000. The trunk rusted through and would not support the gas tank. The 2nd he currently owns and it has about 240,000 miles. None of these cars has needed any injector work (admittedly some had carbs) and only one fuel pump was replaced.

I just don't see the need...or benefit.

By the way mixed into the (8) Honda's was one Mercedes that spent more time in the shop that all the Accords combined. One was enough.

John from Pa


I own both Accord V6 96 model and several MB vehicles and couldn't agree with you more about the reliability of the Accord. Only the older MB OM616/617 diesels can do better than the Accords but not overall. MB gas engines don't match up to Accord. I have used M-1 from day one on my Accord and Delo 400 on my diesel MBs, I have been quite happy with the high mileage performance of both.
quote:
. . .
A Maintenance Dose of MMO will do many things:

1) Lube the fuel system
2) Upper Cylinder Lubricant
3) Keep fuel injectors clean

The 2-Cycle Oil is just going to be a top end lube, it has no cleaning abilities and it will not keep the fuel system clean like MMO.
. . .


But remember, the TC-W3 has to be able to perform as a cleaner in the engines for which it's really meant. Wouldn't the cleaning ability conferred upon it (albeit meant for the 2C engine) also act as a cleaner in a 4C engine as well?

BTW, I've been experimenting with the PZ ester-based syn TC-W3 at about 400:1. I can't draw any hard conclusions yet, but I do seem to have had a slight mileage increase. Also, the frequent starts of the gas engine (I'm driving a Camry hybrid) are notably smoother, to the point that I miss some of them. I'm inclined to think there's something to it, as I often use the slight rumble of the engine pre-lubing itself as a cue to back off the gas pedal, in order to prolong an all-electric run.

As a previous poster noted, my car could almost certainly live a long, happy life minus any additives, but hey, it's a fun and educational experiment anyway.
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
I may just have to agree with epolk here. . .


Stranger things have happened -- but not many of them! Wink

===============================================

quote:
Originally posted by Ebolamonkey:
. . .
The problem in the longrun is the cat converters clogging up..

. . .

How so? The TC-W3 standard calls for oils that contain "ashless dispersants". In other words, they're meant to burn off virtually completely, not leaving deposits in the CC or the cats.
I see some familiar people here, hello! I'm a fairly long time MMO user, a tradition passed down from decades of dad using it. I recently tried TC-W3 and for some reason like the MMO better in the gas. The engine seems to run well with either, but I have given up slight mpgs with the TC-W3. I also noticed that if you give too big a dose of TC-W3 the engine lacks some power, where as you would have to go hog wild with the MMO. Just my observations, YMMV.

AD
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
I see some familiar people here, hello! I'm a fairly long time MMO user, a tradition passed down from decades of dad using it. I recently tried TC-W3 and for some reason like the MMO better in the gas. The engine seems to run well with either, but I have given up slight mpgs with the TC-W3. I also noticed that if you give too big a dose of TC-W3 the engine lacks some power, where as you would have to go hog wild with the MMO. Just my observations, YMMV.

AD


AD:

Interesting observations. I'm a bit over a month into my syn TC-W3 experiment, so far using only the Penz ester-based full-syn version. My engine seems to love the stuff. I can feel it "seat of the pants" and I'm seeing a slight, but pleasing increase in mpgs (guessing it will stabilize at around 2 mpg, maybe very slightly less).

Regarding your comments about the TC-W3 -- remember that unlike MMO (and I have no problem with that product), TC-W3 oils have to meet prescribed industry standards. But more importantly, they MUST function as complete lubrication for the 2C engines for which they're really meant. Since this stuff has to carry a full burden as engine lube, I'd expect it to be a more "stout" oil, and one that if overdosed into a 4C engine, might very predictably cause things to bog down some. At the proper dose, however, I'm starting to believe that TC-W3 is the near-perfect answer to the hot, dry, barely lubricated top end of a modern 4C car engine.
A few years ago when the 2 strokes were still very popular, we found that Petrol Pumps in India ( Gasoline/Diesel Service Stations) particularly in the rural India were supplying recycled or spurious lube oils and passing them off as 2 T oils. Needless to say this generated lot of pollution in the air apart from damaging bikes.

One single factor that differentiates 2 T oil with 4 stroke oil is its "dispercent package." In two stroke bikes the fuel is the carrier for the lubricity, hence good dispercency ensures the "Oil" is mixed speedily before it goes into combustion. I also recall we used to give demos to users by releasing a few drops of 2T Dispercent Oil and Engine Oil in measuring cylinders, containing Petrol. The engine oil would sink to the bottom, while the 2T oil had started mixing after dropping into the fuel.

If you are using this property to reach critical areas, its a great idea. More so, as currently available Euro IV type fuels, while they have low sulphur ( 10 ppm) have thier inherently available aromatic compounds stripped along with Sulphur ( by hydro treatment) thus, off late the injectors, pumps are prone to wear. In fact, I recall reading, that Bosch is now replacing a higher percentage of injectors/pumps than ever before.

Finally, I feel that by use of good fuel additives ( which also possess detergency ) you get desired results. If the additive also provides some "wear protection" (like Boron CLS Bond ) you would have met your objective and more.

Hussam
quote:
Originally posted by ekpolk:
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
I see some familiar people here, hello! I'm a fairly long time MMO user, a tradition passed down from decades of dad using it. I recently tried TC-W3 and for some reason like the MMO better in the gas. The engine seems to run well with either, but I have given up slight mpgs with the TC-W3. I also noticed that if you give too big a dose of TC-W3 the engine lacks some power, where as you would have to go hog wild with the MMO. Just my observations, YMMV.

AD


AD:

Interesting observations. I'm a bit over a month into my syn TC-W3 experiment, so far using only the Penz ester-based full-syn version. My engine seems to love the stuff. I can feel it "seat of the pants" and I'm seeing a slight, but pleasing increase in mpgs (guessing it will stabilize at around 2 mpg, maybe very slightly less).

Regarding your comments about the TC-W3 -- remember that unlike MMO (and I have no problem with that product), TC-W3 oils have to meet prescribed industry standards. But more importantly, they MUST function as complete lubrication for the 2C engines for which they're really meant. Since this stuff has to carry a full burden as engine lube, I'd expect it to be a more "stout" oil, and one that if overdosed into a 4C engine, might very predictably cause things to bog down some. At the proper dose, however, I'm starting to believe that TC-W3 is the near-perfect answer to the hot, dry, barely lubricated top end of a modern 4C car engine.


That's been my observation as well. But I'm using the Walmart Supertech TC-W3.

What got me started: http://www.ls1.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91206
In a 4 stroke engine, oil is stored separately, pumped into various parts as the engine starts and does its lubrication and cleaning work and returns to the tank. After every 5,000 KMs or so, the oil along with all the dirt is drained off. However, in a 2 stroke engine, generally the oil is mixed with petrol and directly taken to the combstion chamber. There is no re-circulation here and the used oil is thrown off into the atmosphere. The ability to clean the engines is known as 'detergency' and both the oils need it. However, 4 stroke oils also need 'dispersancy', the ability to hold the particles of combustion in suspension. For this purpose, special polar additives are added into 4 stroke oils, known as dispersants. They are essentially nitrogenous compounds.
A 4 Stroke oil is hence a more complete product than a 2 stroke oil. No useful purpose is served by adding a 2 stroke oil as a top-up to a 4 stroke oil. Well-formulated engine oils are tailor-made for each type of engine - 4 stroke or 2 stroke - and each type of fuel - petrol or diesel.
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
Before using MMo in the fuel I like to run a bottle of fuel injector cleaner followed by a Maintenance Dose of MMO. It is important to make sure the fuel system is clean.

A Maintenance Dose of MMO will do many things:

1) Lube the fuel system
2) Upper Cylinder Lubricant
3) Keep fuel injectors clean

The 2-Cycle Oil is just going to be a top end lube, it has no cleaning abilities and it will not keep the fuel system clean like MMO.

Since using MMO I have noticed a 2 m.p.g. improvement, I feel the MMO is keeping the valves sealed and clean as well as keeping the fuel injectors free of carbon.


Good advise, my dad has been adding MMO to gas since before I was born, and has lots of stories about MMO and its benefits. I have a Bitog buddy that swears by it as well. I think todays crappy gas needs all the help it can get.

AD
quote:
Good advise, my dad has been adding MMO to gas since before I was born, and has lots of stories about MMO and its benefits. I have a Bitog buddy that swears by it as well. I think todays crappy gas needs all the help it can get.

AD


With Ethanol now being added to gasoline, it kind of dries things out from what I have heard, and of course they took the lead out of gasoline, I think that was kind of a lubricant, but that is just my thought, and its not a fact.
quote:
Originally posted by John from PA:
I have had (8) Honda Accords since the 1970's. I personally drove all of them to about 125,000 miles. Two were purchased by a neighbor - he took one to 280,000 miles and was pissed he didn't make 300,000. The trunk rusted through and would not support the gas tank. The 2nd he currently owns and it has about 240,000 miles. None of these cars has needed any injector work (admittedly some had carbs) and only one fuel pump was replaced.

I just don't see the need...or benefit.

By the way mixed into the (8) Honda's was one Mercedes that spent more time in the shop that all the Accords combined. One was enough.

John from Pa


It's hard to argue with the empirical logic here. OTOH, during the vast majority of the time you drove those Accords (barely out of their youth...), our fuels were not being poisoned with ethanol. I remain concerned about the anti-lube characteristics that ETOH will bring to gasoline. I theorize that light doses of TCW-3 oils is a good way to counteract this potential issue.
quote:
Originally posted by vsssarma:
In a 4 stroke engine, oil is stored separately, pumped into various parts as the engine starts and does its lubrication and cleaning work and returns to the tank. After every 5,000 KMs or so, the oil along with all the dirt is drained off. However, in a 2 stroke engine, generally the oil is mixed with petrol and directly taken to the combstion chamber. There is no re-circulation here and the used oil is thrown off into the atmosphere. The ability to clean the engines is known as 'detergency' and both the oils need it. However, 4 stroke oils also need 'dispersancy', the ability to hold the particles of combustion in suspension. For this purpose, special polar additives are added into 4 stroke oils, known as dispersants. They are essentially nitrogenous compounds.
A 4 Stroke oil is hence a more complete product than a 2 stroke oil. No useful purpose is served by adding a 2 stroke oil as a top-up to a 4 stroke oil. Well-formulated engine oils are tailor-made for each type of engine - 4 stroke or 2 stroke - and each type of fuel - petrol or diesel.


We're not talking about adding TCW-3 to the 4-stroke oil in the crankcase -- this is about using TCW-3 added in light doses to the FUEL. At worst, I see no damage being done by trying this strategy.
quote:
Originally posted by ekpolk:
quote:
Originally posted by vsssarma:
In a 4 stroke engine, oil is stored separately, pumped into various parts as the engine starts and does its lubrication and cleaning work and returns to the tank. After every 5,000 KMs or so, the oil along with all the dirt is drained off. However, in a 2 stroke engine, generally the oil is mixed with petrol and directly taken to the combstion chamber. There is no re-circulation here and the used oil is thrown off into the atmosphere. The ability to clean the engines is known as 'detergency' and both the oils need it. However, 4 stroke oils also need 'dispersancy', the ability to hold the particles of combustion in suspension. For this purpose, special polar additives are added into 4 stroke oils, known as dispersants. They are essentially nitrogenous compounds.
A 4 Stroke oil is hence a more complete product than a 2 stroke oil. No useful purpose is served by adding a 2 stroke oil as a top-up to a 4 stroke oil. Well-formulated engine oils are tailor-made for each type of engine - 4 stroke or 2 stroke - and each type of fuel - petrol or diesel.


We're not talking about adding TCW-3 to the 4-stroke oil in the crankcase -- this is about using TCW-3 added in light doses to the FUEL. At worst, I see no damage being done by trying this strategy.


1oz/5 gal IIRC. Been doing it for quite some time now.

http://www.ls1.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91206

Among other things, a gallon of TC-W3 from Walmart is cheaper than a gallon of MMO.

It doesn't have to be the synth oil, as he later points out, but it has to be the TC-W3.
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
Why not use a product formulated specifically for your purpose such as https://www.amsoil.com/storefront/api.aspx?zo=1181889 ?



The PI additive is an expensive cleaner at best. Why not just purchase techron plus when it's on sale half price. It also has some level of lubricity. Does the PI have any lubricity?

Using a good fuel lube on a consistent basis at the proper dose certainly can't hurt....MMO,LUCAS,OR TCW3(680:1 RATIO).

I also use the Sta-bil marine grade that helps solve ethanol issues,along with about 3 oz of acetone per 10/gallon of fuel which gives me a consistent fuel economy increase of 10% that easily covers the additive cost AND THEN SOME.....for many years now with no ill effects at all.

Acetone is actually relatively mild compared to some other fuel additives,including gasoline itself. Some fuel additives like B-12 chem-tool already have acetone in the mix.

http://www.michigangasprices.c...7301&page_no=1&FAV=N

Any one additive by itself won't yield the 10%.......it's the synergistic effects of the combination of two or more additive with the acetone,but Sta-bil must be used in the mix. Sta-bil by itself won't yield 10% or even 1%.......Acetone + Stabil =10%.
Last edited by captainkirk
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
Why not use a product formulated specifically for your purpose such as https://www.amsoil.com/storefront/api.aspx?zo=1181889 ?



The PI additive is an expensive cleaner at best. Why not just purchase techron plus when it's on sale half price.


Actually, PI has been shown to save more money in gasoline savings than it costs. And it was introduced with a money back guarantee if you were not satisfied. Apparently thousands were satisfied and no one asked for their money back.

"P.i. Performance Improver Concentrate (API)
Improves fuel mileage an average of 2.3% and up to 5.7%. " At a retail cost of $10.60 for a 20 gallon tank treatment and repeat the recommended 4,000 miles. 4,000 miles at 20mpg and $3 a gallon = $600 spent in gasoline. If you get the average of 2.3%, you save $13.80 in gasoline.

In addition to the $3.20 you get to keep in your pocket, you "Reduces emissions such as hydrocarbons (HC) up to 15%, carbon monoxide (CO) up to 26% and nitrous oxides (NOx) up to 17%. Restores power and performance. Reduces the need for costly higher octane fuel. Reduces noise from carbon rap and pre-ignition. Offers better vehicle drivability and smoother operation." P.I. cleaned off 36 to 98% intake valve deposits, and cleaned off 35-63% combustion chamber deposits.

Here is an 8 page study on the product: https://www.amsoil.com/lit/g2543.pdf .

Can you show that Techron or 2 stroke oil does all of this as well as AMSOIL Performance Improver gasoline additive?
Last edited by timvipond
quote:
Can you show that Techron or 2 stroke oil does all of this as well as AMSOIL Performance Improver gasoline additive?


Tim, I almost never use Techron,unless it's on sale at half price.........maybe.

I typically only use my own "recipe" I spoke of earlier and never have any issues. I never have any fuel injection cleaning services in any of my cars........never need too.

However, Techron PLUS is endorsed by many and will work very well,especially if the max dose is used.

I doubt very much that the PI improver is really that much better,IF AT ALL THAN TECHRON..........NOTICE HOW AMSOIL----IN THIS CASE......DOESN'T HAVE ANY DIRECT COMPARISON OF PI WITH ANY OTHER PRODUCT ON THE MARKET!! I WONDER WHY???? Wink
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:

I doubt very much that the PI improver is really that much better,IF AT ALL THAN TECHRON..........NOTICE HOW AMSOIL----IN THIS CASE......DOESN'T HAVE ANY DIRECT COMPARISON OF PI WITH ANY OTHER PRODUCT ON THE MARKET!! I WONDER WHY???? Wink


So all you have is an anonymous opinion. AMSOIL has scientific test data they presented publicly.

AMSOIL shows their test data. Techron doesn't. I wonder why?......

Here is a good power point presentation for those who would like more info. http://amsoil.acrobat.com/pi/ .

Here is a Q & A for Performance Improver gasoline treatment. https://www.amsoil.com/dealer/...ice/OneVoice_API.pdf
Last edited by timvipond
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:

I doubt very much that the PI improver is really that much better,IF AT ALL THAN TECHRON..........NOTICE HOW AMSOIL----IN THIS CASE......DOESN'T HAVE ANY DIRECT COMPARISON OF PI WITH ANY OTHER PRODUCT ON THE MARKET!! I WONDER WHY???? Wink


So all you have is opinion. AMSOIL has scientific test data.

AMSOIL shows their test data. Techron doesn't. I wonder why?......

Here is a good power point presentation for those who would like more info. http://amsoil.acrobat.com/pi/ .

Here is a Q & A for Performance Improver gasoline treatment. https://www.amsoil.com/dealer/...ice/OneVoice_API.pdf



WELL,let's hear from everyone else and what they have used in the past when they have had a need to use a fuel injection cleaner........like-------Techron,redline,or even the BG-44 STUFF,etc. Not saying the PI isn't any good,just suspect it's not really much better if at all then what I have mentioned thus far.

I still say Amsoil left out the competition for a reason!
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:

I still say Amsoil left out the competition for a reason!


Feel free to call AMSOIL tech support at Product Technical Services: (715)399-TECH if you truly want the reason. I think the very complete testing and tear downs AMSOIL did on many vehicles was very expensive and they may not have seen the need to test a bunch of old technology products. They are open from 8 to 5 M-F.

Since you are asking for input, I have personally seen an old Kawasaki motorcycle that barely ran, run perfectly during a one tank treatment.

A lot of people have told me their vehicles run better with the Performance Improver. Some notice better idling. Quicker starts.
Hello...I am the guy that started that thread awhile back on LS1.COM. All I can say is we have documented well over 6 million miles in our volunteers automobiles since I began this experiment.
To date not one negative. So many postives from quiter fuel pumps to MPG increases to quieter valve assembly.
I do not defend nor sale anything. I just set it up and documented all of it.
I am now doing the same thing on MMO.
Sarge- I've been using MMO in the gas for a quite a while, my dad and uncle have been doing so for close to 4 decades now. TCW3 is also another good thing to add to the gas. I read the thread on the LS1 forum. You certainly put a lot of time and effort into it, and there is a lot of real world testimony from people not trying to sell product every chance they get.

I have a buddy in NY that has been using MMO for decades too, and has recently switched a mini van that uses oil from MMO in the gas to TCW3. He thinks the TCW3 might have helped reduce oil use. He is still testing and not 100% sure as of the last time we spoke.

You have my trust and respect sir. Glad to see you posting here! There is a lot of benefit to old technology in this instance, this is not rocket science, just using tried and true products that work! A product doesn't have to be expensive to work!



AD
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:


The PI additive is an expensive cleaner at best. Why not just purchase techron plus when it's on sale half price. It also has some level of lubricity. Does the PI have any lubricity?

Using a good fuel lube on a consistent basis at the proper dose certainly can't hurt....MMO,LUCAS,OR TCW3(680:1 RATIO).

I also use the Sta-bil marine grade that helps solve ethanol issues,along with about 3 oz of acetone per 10/gallon of fuel which gives me a consistent fuel economy increase of 10% that easily covers the additive cost AND THEN SOME.....for many years now with no ill effects at all.

Acetone is actually relatively mild compared to some other fuel additives,including gasoline itself. Some fuel additives like B-12 chem-tool already have acetone in the mix.

http://www.michigangasprices.c...7301&page_no=1&FAV=N

Any one additive by itself won't yield the 10%.......it's the synergistic effects of the combination of two or more additive with the acetone,but Sta-bil must be used in the mix. Sta-bil by itself won't yield 10% or even 1%.......Acetone + Stabil =10%.


Good info Kirk! My buddy in NY pretty much summed up PI the same way you have. Expensive cleaner at best, and he wasn't impressed with it at all. He said if you really want a good cleaner and UCL to buy the Red Line product. It is both a cleaner and a UCL, and can be added at 1.5 ounces/10 galls of gas, for full time use.

Me I'll stick to a good FI cleaner twice a year and 4 ounces of MMO/10 gallons of gas. At less than $4 a qt at Wally Mart MMO is a deal!

AD
Me too Tim. Like I said the documentation has been more or less my own personal tracking of certain parameters results. Solely based on volunteers input.

I would ask you though.....When I started the TCW3 project I had no idea it would go viral. Google TCW3. We had over 1900 links (from different forums) back to the original thread. My point is....it is very difficult to ignore thousands of personal postings sharing their personal experience using it (TCW3 in fuel) in their cars. Impossible to "create" would you not agree?

I see your the Amsoil Dealer Warrior on here....I get it now .....

Look Tim...I am not selling nor advocating anything. I am just documenting results. Separating chatter from real world results. I do it on many automotive items from "Magic Spark Plugs" to "Magic Oil Additives". Been doing it for years.

Not big on "sponsored" marketing test results from paid "experts"....I am a simple guy and like thousands of anonymous users testimony. Users with no distributorship agendas. Just regular folks.

Use what you wish Tim.

And for the record I am the one that invited (through Pablo) CompSyn to ls1.com simply because I am an advocate of Amsoil products. Not as a "across the board" solution to every application but a great company with good products. You want to verify who I am? Only I,Pablo and CompSyn know that fact. Ask them.

The internet....sheesh.....this is why I semi retired from it.
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
Sarge- I've been using MMO in the gas for a quite a while, my dad and uncle have been doing so for close to 4 decades now. TCW3 is also another good thing to add to the gas. I read the thread on the LS1 forum. You certainly put a lot of time and effort into it, and there is a lot of real world testimony from people not trying to sell product every chance they get.

I have a buddy in NY that has been using MMO for decades too, and has recently switched a mini van that uses oil from MMO in the gas to TCW3. He thinks the TCW3 might have helped reduce oil use. He is still testing and not 100% sure as of the last time we spoke.

You have my trust and respect sir. Glad to see you posting here! There is a lot of benefit to old technology in this instance, this is not rocket science, just using tried and true products that work! A product doesn't have to be expensive to work!



AD


Well thank you young man. When I was in the Navy we had oars and threw rocks at the bad guys. I did two WesPacs on the USS Chicago CG-11 in the early 70's Smile

I am doing the same thing with MMO now. I have about 300 volunteers around the country documenting a 6 point survery on a weekly basis using MMO in their gas. We also are looking at a MMO in the oil survey also. It is fun to see results.
Most threads on this board become an Amsoil selling platform with a links to some Amsoil Sales Data which looks more to me like Amsoil hype. Sarge it seems in your LS1 thread it was the less expensive TCW3 oils that netted some pretty impressive results for many members. Simple, been around forever, easily available at Wally-Mart TCW3, and most importantly cheap which you mentioned several times IIRC. I see no reason to use the expensive Amsoil product, and then have to pay a $20 fee for the right to buy it for a little less. TCW3 works, you've proven it, why did this thread like so many others turn into an Amsoil sales pitch? Am I the only member that sees it?

When you come down to it Sarge you're an anonymous poster too, clearly though not trying to sell anything. I have more respect for data you post than from some salesman linking to product he sells, who BTW was launched for his sales tactics from at least one other site, possibly more. It appears others agreed and got tired of it too!

I wish this topic could stay on topic, about TCW3 as a 4 cycle engine fuel add, and not another Amsoil sales platform. That's getting old, real fast.

AD
Oh And Tim...I see you utilize feedback and not just "test results" in your desire to share data also. Just so I am clear....are these private individuals API certified super duper lab certified documented geeks? Or are they just folks who shared their experience and you utilize their testimony? LOL. Asmoil lives off of personal private indivdual testimony. Why do you attack folks when they share the same thing?
Oh well....I did not sign up here just to jib jab with you. Actually I like the maturity most members here show versus other oil forums that seem to have died and gone to ricer forum hell.


[quote=Tim Vipond]Sure. Ask any of the thousands of Texas State Troopers that have run AMSOIL for 20,000 severe mile oil and filter changes in thousands of patrol cars over the past 10 years.

Or ask Haywood Gray: http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g1343.pdf

Or John Small with Sears: http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g1009.pdf

Or Brian Johnson with Nordic Waste: http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g2695.pdf

Or Jason Wick: http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g2244.pdf

And of course, JD Green in post #5 above.[/quote]
quote:
Originally posted by Sarge:
Oh And Tim...I see you utilize feedback and not just "test results" in your desire to share data also. Just so I am clear....are these private individuals API certified super duper lab certified documented geeks? Or are they just folks who shared their experience and you utilize their testimony? LOL. Asmoil lives off of personal private indivdual testimony. Why do you attack folks when they share the same thing?
Oh well....I did not sign up here just to jib jab with you. Actually I like the maturity most members here show versus other oil forums that seem to have died and gone to ricer forum hell.


[quote=Tim Vipond]Sure. Ask any of the thousands of Texas State Troopers that have run AMSOIL for 20,000 severe mile oil and filter changes in thousands of patrol cars over the past 10 years.

Or ask Haywood Gray: http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g1343.pdf

Or John Small with Sears: http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g1009.pdf

Or Brian Johnson with Nordic Waste: http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g2695.pdf

Or Jason Wick: http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g2244.pdf

And of course, JD Green in post #5 above.
[/QUOTE]

I was asked for personal testimonies, so I supplied them. Real people with real data. Easily verified.

As a retired scientist, I prefer published data. No one has disputed and proven AMSOIL's data incorrect in 38 years.

Could you provide the data for your test results? Seems you ought to get them published in a trade magazine so they can be scrutinized and verified. Then we all win.

Also, if adding 2 cycle oil to a 4 cycle engine is so great, why aren't all the major 2 cycle oil manufacturers recommending it? They have the test facilities, have research scientists, have test vehicles, have test protocols, etc. They would make lots of extra money, yet don't make this recommendation. Hmmm.......

And AD, no one is required to pay $20 to buy AMSOIL products. I give free wholesale pricing for anyone with a qualified business. No $20 fee when you purchase AMSOIL products at stores. But you knew that.
Last edited by timvipond
I don't have a business Tim, and have no desire to buy Amsoil, my father used it, we'll pass. The last time I saw Amsoil in a store on Whidbey Island, WA it was covered with dust, the price was way to high. Check out Bitog they mention Amsoil covered with dust in the stores, even Pablo acknowledged that IIRC I'll have to check the tread out.

I also get the feeling that you think the people who tested TCW3 that Sarge mentioned had no results because it is only their testimony given. Maybe you should get on the LS1 board and tell them.

AD
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
quote:
Originally posted by Sarge:
Oh And Tim...I see you utilize feedback and not just "test results" in your desire to share data also. Just so I am clear....are these private individuals API certified super duper lab certified documented geeks? Or are they just folks who shared their experience and you utilize their testimony? LOL. Asmoil lives off of personal private indivdual testimony. Why do you attack folks when they share the same thing?
Oh well....I did not sign up here just to jib jab with you. Actually I like the maturity most members here show versus other oil forums that seem to have died and gone to ricer forum hell.


[quote=Tim Vipond]Sure. Ask any of the thousands of Texas State Troopers that have run AMSOIL for 20,000 severe mile oil and filter changes in thousands of patrol cars over the past 10 years.

Or ask Haywood Gray: http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g1343.pdf

Or John Small with Sears: http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g1009.pdf

Or Brian Johnson with Nordic Waste: http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g2695.pdf

Or Jason Wick: http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g2244.pdf

And of course, JD Green in post #5 above.


I was asked for personal testimonies, so I supplied them. Real people with real data. Easily verified.

As a retired scientist, I prefer published data. No one has disputed and proven AMSOIL's data incorrect in 38 years.

Could you provide the data for your test results? Seems you ought to get them published in a trade magazine so they can be scrutinized and verified. Then we all win.

Also, if adding 2 cycle oil to a 4 cycle engine is so great, why aren't all the major 2 cycle oil manufacturers recommending it? They have the test facilities, have research scientists, have test vehicles, have test protocols, etc. They would make lots of extra money, yet don't make this recommendation. Hmmm.......

And AD, no one is required to pay $20 to buy AMSOIL products. I give free wholesale pricing for anyone with a qualified business. No $20 fee when you purchase AMSOIL products at stores. But you knew that.[/QUOTE]
------------------------------------------
This is funny. You want me to publish a technical paper and your supplied personal quotes are somehow superior? Did you read my very first post here? I just organize the "project" and track the input from regular Joe's.
Why don't manufactures make solid walnut dashboards versus plastic? HHHmmmmmmm. I mean walnut is better isn't it?HHHmmmmmm.
I have been in technology for over 40 years. I know "scientist" who cannot blow their nose and I know "scientist who are brilliant. So what? Am I supposed to wither in your presence because you tell me your a scientist? Heck fire Tim....and I repeat....we ( the people whom participate in these little projects of mine) are just compiling data. All data is personal observation. And if you did not know...personal observation is where the rubber meets the road for us regular guys. Not some marketing "data"....and I see you use personal input yourself quite often. Then attack others for doing the exact same thing. Did you learn that trick in science school? LOL......have your Texas Highway Patrol guys publish their tech papers there big boy...take your own advise.
I see you have been banned in many forums for your trollish behaviour pumping Amsoil.
I am very plugged into the Texas Highway Patrol Regional office here in South Texas. They use bulk Valvoline. I guess they did not get your memo.
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
I don't have a business Tim, and have no desire to buy Amsoil, my father used it, we'll pass. The last time I saw Amsoil in a store on Whidbey Island, WA it was covered with dust, the price was way to high. Check out Bitog they mention Amsoil covered with dust in the stores, even Pablo acknowledged that IIRC I'll have to check the tread out.

I also get the feeling that you think the people who tested TCW3 that Sarge mentioned had no results because it is only their testimony given. Maybe you should get on the LS1 board and tell them.

AD

Oh goodness...he doesn't want to do that. Those are gearheads. They will eat him alive. CompSyn does a good job there. Offers advise across all oil manufacturers platforms. People respect that. I retired as the Super Mod there. So I cannot protect him Smile
If I had a bug problem some Amsoil "Jobbers" will tell me to spray them with 0-30 Amsoil cuz it's the best. Is this just an Amsoil marketing site?
And you forget Tim.
I have no dog in the hunt. I am not advocating putting anything in your fuel. You are. I am not. And you look sorta silly summarily dismissing 500K folks (last post count on the subject using Web Trends tools) post on the subject. Because they have not paid SWRI or somebody to verify their personal observations.
I see we are all up early and I have to go feed the cattle. But it is fun anyway and I humbly drop out of this as I have been a mod on a major forum and I realize we have digressed here. I apologize to the moderators here and will drop the subject as it obviously is not answering the OP's original subject matter.
quote:
Originally posted by Sarge:
Is this just an Amsoil marketing site?


I sure hope not, maybe he has a deal with the mods, if so their house their rules. If not I wish they'd muzzle him so we could stay on topic!

I'm interested in your MMO feedback and results from the guys you have testing it. My family used it for decades with great results in both oil and gas. So did my buddy in NY. But they aren't scientists so Tim would rule them out, LOL.

Maybe you can post a link to this on the LS1 site if it is allowed and let them see what the Amsoil rep thinks of their findings.

AD
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
quote:
Originally posted by Sarge:
Is this just an Amsoil marketing site?


I sure hope not, maybe he has a deal with the mods, if so their house their rules. If not I wish they'd muzzle him so we could stay on topic!

I'm interested in your MMO feedback and results from the guys you have testing it. My family used it for decades with great results in both oil and gas. So did my buddy in NY. But they aren't scientists so Tim would rule them out, LOL.

Maybe you can post a link to this on the LS1 site if it is allowed and let them see what the Amsoil rep thinks of their findings.

AD

No....that would just create a troll forum war and I will not do this to this site. CompSyn does a great job representing Amsoil and oil in general there. Tim...I see your TDPS Troopers and raise you Richard Childress Racing Smile
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/...=2090548#Post2090548
Sarge did the research, the results posted on the LS1 forum speak volumes. Why not join the LS1 forum and ask? Lots of people there can give you answers, and you can explain to each and everyone of them why you feel they are wrong. Go for it! Oh wait they already have an Amsoil rep with some class, they'd probably run you off, nothing to gain there, sorry!

AD
What makes you think I feel they are wrong? They can do whatever they please. I'd just like to see scientific proof that it works and won't damage anything or decrease performance long term. Again, why don't the 2 cycle oil, gasoline and vehicle companies back this idea? Why doesn't the EPA back this idea? What do they know that you don't? Still waiting...again....
Ask them Tim. I know plenty of people doing it with either MMO or TCW3 for decades, and it works. You don't believe me, so go to the LS1 board and ask for yourself, mention the EPA while you're at it. Just because the EPA doesn't back it means nothing to me, and many others.

There are things the FDA approves and later it is found certain products they approved have killed people. Just look at the negative side effects many approved meds have..........Many smart people think out of the box Tim, and experiment with some pretty impressive results. Sarge proved it, you just can't accept it, go on LS1 and tell'em all they're wrong, or they don't have the EPA blessings.

AD
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
Ask them Tim.
I have. Since Sarge is recommending a Shell product, I have contacted them by email for info.
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1: I know plenty of people doing it with either MMO or TCW3 for decades, and it works.
Again you flip/flop. Earlier you said "I recently tried TC-W3 and for some reason like the MMO better in the gas. The engine seems to run well with either, but I have given up slight mpgs with the TC-W3. I also noticed that if you give too big a dose of TC-W3 the engine lacks some power, where as you would have to go hog wild with the MMO. Just my observations, YMMV."
Flip flop, you call that? Get real! Those are my observations. Further testing is needed for me with the TCW3. At least I have an open mind and I am willing to try and experiment, it is quite clear I am not here to sell as you are! My experiences are real, not made up in some lab to sell product.

In my case maybe less TCW3 is needed, maybe more, or maybe in my situation MMO is better. My NY buddy who I mention a lot noticed TCW3 reduced oil consumption, when added to the gas, something MMO didn't do for him, and he's been using MMO for close to 40 years I think.

Oh yea and Sarge mentioned 300 people testing MMO gas and oil IIRC. That caught me attention.

AD
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
So you still haven't answered the very basic question why the 2 cycle oil companies aren't recommending this. Not to mention the gasoline and automotive companies. What do they know that you don't? Billions of dollars on research and testing? Still waiting....

Are you kidding me? Why dont folks that grow watermelons advertise you can put vodka in them and get faced? Come on Tim...get real. Are you waiting for some common sense? I sure hope your wait is not much longer. This is getting painful man. All the reloaders I know put NuFinish in their tumblers to shine the brass. I mean all of them. It is on every reloaders forum. Why doesnt NuFinish advertise that fact?
Probably because they have XXX amount of marketing dollars and they (gee call me silly) go after their target market and not every fringe benefit others have found for their product. I'm just taking a wild guess here Tim.....Lord help us!
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
What makes you think I feel they are wrong? They can do whatever they please. I'd just like to see scientific proof that it works and won't damage anything or decrease performance long term. Again, why don't the 2 cycle oil, gasoline and vehicle companies back this idea? Why doesn't the EPA back this idea? What do they know that you don't? Still waiting...again....

Show me where the EPA back using Amsoil PI Tim.
Show you where it doesnt hurt anything long term? You gotta be absolutely high Tim. I think the TCW3 has been tested more miles by more people than any other product I ever heard of! And (God forbid) they actually are sharing their experiance all over the internet for the past 2-3 years!
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
Sarge hasn't posted on his LS1 2 cycle oil thread since Feb. People are asking him questions and he isn't responding. What's up with that?

For the reading and comprehension impaired I say again. I retired from there Tim. I pretty much retired from the INTERNET for this very reason. Just so much BS and silliness it is just painful.
quote:
Originally posted by Sarge:
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
So you still haven't answered the very basic question why the 2 cycle oil companies aren't recommending this. Not to mention the gasoline and automotive companies. What do they know that you don't? Billions of dollars on research and testing? Still waiting....

Are you kidding me? Why dont folks that grow watermelons advertise you can put vodka in them and get faced? Come on Tim...get real. Are you waiting for some common sense? I sure hope your wait is not much longer. This is getting painful man. All the reloaders I know put NuFinish in their tumblers to shine the brass. I mean all of them. It is on every reloaders forum. Why doesnt NuFinish advertise that fact?
Probably because they have XXX amount of marketing dollars and they (gee call me silly) go after their target market and not every fringe benefit others have found for their product. I'm just taking a wild guess here Tim.....Lord help us!


I used to load for a 22.250, 6.5x284 7WSM, and 30-338 Lapua, to name a few. I haven't done it in a while Frown. I read about NuFinish, never tried it. I did use Bon-Ami [sp] it worked good in the tumbler with the media. I'll have to remember the NuFinish next time I'm home.

Back on topic, it pays to think out of the box! Many good things have come from it! You mentioned some good examples!

AD
quote:
Originally posted by Sarge:

Show me where the EPA back using Amsoil PI Tim.
Some of you sure are fickle. First you don't want me to talk about AMSOIL, then that is all you want to talk about and ask me questions.

From http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g2543.pdf

"The fleet of test vehicles was put on a rolling chassis
dynamometer before and after P.i. treatment, measuring
each vehicle’s fuel economy numbers according to the
same method mandated by the federal government
and used by auto manufacturers to determine vehicle
fuel economy ratings. The blue bars on Graph E
indicate pre-treatment fuel economy numbers. The
red bars indicate fuel economy following one tank of
operation on P.i., showing an average fuel economy
improvement of more than 2 percent."

Don't you think the Federal Government or FTC or anyone would cry foul if this data was incorrect? They haven't.

Or their environmental claims of reducing vehicle emissions?
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
quote:
Originally posted by Sarge:

Show me where the EPA back using Amsoil PI Tim.
Some of you sure are fickle. First you don't want me to talk about AMSOIL, then that is all you want to talk about and ask me questions.

From http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g2543.pdf

"The fleet of test vehicles was put on a rolling chassis
dynamometer before and after P.i. treatment, measuring
each vehicle’s fuel economy numbers according to the
same method mandated by the federal government
and used by auto manufacturers to determine vehicle
fuel economy ratings. The blue bars on Graph E
indicate pre-treatment fuel economy numbers. The
red bars indicate fuel economy following one tank of
operation on P.i., showing an average fuel economy
improvement of more than 2 percent."

Don't you think the Federal Government or FTC or anyone would cry foul if this data was incorrect? They haven't.

Or their environmental claims of reducing vehicle emissions?

That's it? We haven't been sued so it must be true? My God...you are insane.
You know Tim....I have known guys like you in life. Everybody knows them as a fool. However in their mind they are brilliant. Your constant babble about Amsoil's silly ass marketing all over the INTERNET on every car forum....pimping yourself shamelessly....well I guess it is funny as hell you think you have any type of credibility anywhere with anybody.
You think of yourself as quite sly by asking for ridiculous "certified testing" over a simple fuel add that has been around for 50+years. Guys have been using 2stroke oil in their fuel long before I showed up.I am selling nothing. Your agenda is clear (your profit) and why this forum puts up with your silly painful post is beyond me.... but it isn't my forum.
I'll say again.....I document folks experience as they share it with me. Period. That is the end of it. Take with it what you wish. I could care less.I have no agenda and have nothing to prove to some silly Amsoil "Jobber" from Houston for sure.
Maybe Pablo or CompSyn can share with you how much damage you Amsoil dealers do to Amsoil Corp. on these forums with your silly Amsoil sponsored 4ball test et al.
So the kabillion post in numerous forums reflecting personal non -paid testimony must be true because the Feds havent sued anybody for saying TCW3 in their fuel had benefits. Using your own rational Tim.
Last edited by sarge
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
quote:
Originally posted by Sarge:
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
So you still haven't answered the very basic question why the 2 cycle oil companies aren't recommending this. Not to mention the gasoline and automotive companies. What do they know that you don't? Billions of dollars on research and testing? Still waiting....

Are you kidding me? Why dont folks that grow watermelons advertise you can put vodka in them and get faced? Come on Tim...get real. Are you waiting for some common sense? I sure hope your wait is not much longer. This is getting painful man. All the reloaders I know put NuFinish in their tumblers to shine the brass. I mean all of them. It is on every reloaders forum. Why doesnt NuFinish advertise that fact?
Probably because they have XXX amount of marketing dollars and they (gee call me silly) go after their target market and not every fringe benefit others have found for their product. I'm just taking a wild guess here Tim.....Lord help us!


I used to load for a 22.250, 6.5x284 7WSM, and 30-338 Lapua, to name a few. I haven't done it in a while Frown. I read about NuFinish, never tried it. I did use Bon-Ami [sp] it worked good in the tumbler with the media. I'll have to remember the NuFinish next time I'm home.

Back on topic, it pays to think out of the box! Many good things have come from it! You mentioned some good examples!

AD

I am of the old used dryer sheet/tablespoon of NuFinish and crushed walnut type of guy myself Smile
I reload dad gum near every caliber of rifle and handgun. And shotgun also. I shoot a bunchSmile
Now shotgun, I shot a lot of that too, mostly trap on Eastern Long Island. I never reloaded them though.

AD

PS MMO claims on the label says: Improves Fuel Economy". They have been in business close to 85 years give or take. No problems I'm aware of making that claim, "Cleans Engines From The Inside Out", i think that's on the label too. No problems with that claim either. The nice thing about TCW3 and MMO is there are no company shills pushing it on these boards. Just honest testimony, and a lot of it too!

AD
quote:
Originally posted by Sarge:
I pretty much retired from the INTERNET for this very reason. Just so much BS and silliness it is just painful.
So why are you here again? Oh yeah, to provide us the useful data you've collected from anonymous posters with anecdotes which some say two stroke oil is good for 4 stroke engines and others say they saw no difference, and others like AD say they lost mpg and performance, and others worried about long term damage. Two stroke oil companies aren't supporting any of your statements. They'd be run out of town if they followed your example.
quote:
Originally posted by Sarge:
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
quote:
Originally posted by Sarge:

Show me where the EPA back using Amsoil PI Tim.
Some of you sure are fickle. First you don't want me to talk about AMSOIL, then that is all you want to talk about and ask me questions.

From http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g2543.pdf

"The fleet of test vehicles was put on a rolling chassis
dynamometer before and after P.i. treatment, measuring
each vehicle’s fuel economy numbers according to the
same method mandated by the federal government
and used by auto manufacturers to determine vehicle
fuel economy ratings. The blue bars on Graph E
indicate pre-treatment fuel economy numbers. The
red bars indicate fuel economy following one tank of
operation on P.i., showing an average fuel economy
improvement of more than 2 percent."

Don't you think the Federal Government or FTC or anyone would cry foul if this data was incorrect? They haven't.

Or their environmental claims of reducing vehicle emissions?

That's it? We haven't been sued so it must be true? .

The oil industry and government does a pretty good job keeping oil company claims in check.
Exxon took Castrol to task over their definition of synthetic oil.
Castrol took Royal Purple to task over their testimonials they tried to pass on as fact. They forced Royal Purple to correct their "information" on their website.
Castrol and Valvoline took Exxon to task over Mobil 1 failure to pass wear tests that Exxon claimed they met.
FTC took many of those gasoline saving devices to task and took them off the market.
FTC took ZMAX to task and had them change some of their claims and set up a consumer refund account.
No two stroke oil manufacture has made the claims you make as they know they couldn't prove them.

If you are so certain that 2 stroke oil works marvels and miracles in 4 stroke engines, why don't you market it? Maybe because you know deep down you wouldn't be able to prove it?
Last edited by timvipond
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:

PS MMO claims on the label says: Improves Fuel Economy". They have been in business close to 85 years give or take. No problems I'm aware of making that claim, "Cleans Engines From The Inside Out", i think that's on the label too. No problems with that claim either.

AD


Didn't Marvel go out of business about 10 years ago? Hmmm....

Are you a company shill for MMO? Doesn't your anonymous dad and uncle push it and sell it at their anonymous auto shop? Seems like you bring it up repeatedly in every thread. Any test data you would like to share? Or is it just anonymous anecdotes...
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
quote:
Originally posted by Sarge:
I pretty much retired from the INTERNET for this very reason. Just so much BS and silliness it is just painful.
So why are you here again? Oh yeah, to provide us the useful data you've collected from anonymous posters with anecdotes which some say two stroke oil is good for 4 stroke engines and others say they saw no difference, and others like AD say they lost mpg and performance, and others worried about long term damage. Two stroke oil companies aren't supporting any of your statements. They'd be run out of town if they followed your example.

I am here at the invitation of one of the founding members Tim. And you? Oh I see....you wish to spam/troll every forum you can sign up with to sell your Mary Kay...erg...ugh...I mean Amsoil.
You just struggle with this don't you? Here let me break it down to "scientist" level.

You= Marketing/Sales of a Multi Level Marketing Scheme product for your profit.
Me= Providing a discussion among a wide audience, across the globe, to comment on various additives or products that relate to the automotive hobby.

Why should I need to "prove" anything Tim? I don't! We are discussing it not selling it. You are selling and I am not.

Should I use stick people diagrams?
Tim,
Allow me to approach this form a different angle.
Amsoil has been in business since what? 1959 or something. In this 50 years they have captured less than 1% of the global sales of the engine oil market. If it was so good why such a small market share? If it was so good why wouldn't the automotive manufacturers all use it? Amsoil has spent significant resources polishing the pig with all kinds of 4ball wear test and paid "test" showing they are the best of the best. Mobil1 has 60%+ of the market. They just laugh at Amsoil and make no attempt to even acknowledge Amsoil exist. Same with SOPUS.

In the fast lube market here in the US. Amsoil has a 4% share and Mobil1 has their 60% again.
But lets look at the top seller in these fast oil change joints. It is additives Tim. This is why I even took on the effort to have this "additive" discussed among those who are making buying decisions. If I can get the same results (real or imagined) with something that cost pennies per application versus an application that cost $20 bucks....then it is worth discussing. So I did. I also have discussed on the WWW nitrogen in your tires, high flow air filters, magic spark plugs on and on and all kinds of oil discussions and marketing hype versus real world results. Royal Purple took a beating in these marketing versus real world results discussions. Amsoil did very well. I have led return on investment discussions as ROI pertains to various oil products and additives.

The TCW3 discussion is no different Tim. Nobody selling anything. Just discussion. Nobody gives a rats butt about any marketing test. We are discussing the usage and individual observations of the usage of TCW3 in their fuel.

Hopefully you can see how far off the mark you are by your position here. We are not selling anything (unlike you)...so we have no desire nor requirement to test anything nor provide data to any knucklehead. We are discussing individual observations. Good or bad. We discuss it. Many have posted compression test....some share before and after state exhaust test data when they got their car inspected....stuff like that....and it is all out there on the WWW.
Get it Tim?
http://www.amsoil.com/news/200..._fastlube_market.pdf
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
Christ, Tim sounds more and more like a synlube pusher.......

I can see why Sarge all but completely retired from the internet. All this crap over a product he doesn't sell.

And I'm really tired of hearing how their sales are at record levels, or how they're #1, etc.

Let's see the proof.


Sickening isn't it Trajan? I wish they'd muzzle him so we could stay on topic, and not have to deal with his constant rebuttals and Amsoil pushing. I could see why Sarge would want to retire from the Internet, its this Kind of grind that can get old real fast. Hang in there Sarge, Tim is losing in the popularity poles.

Tim- FYI Turtle Wax bought the MMO company, the product is alive and well, No problems with the FTC or the EPA either. No payouts for blown engines either.

AD

PS Marvel Mystery Oil Company was formed in 1923. Initially based in Chicago, the company moved to New York City and then in 1941 moved to its long-time home in Port Chester, New York. In 1999, the Marvel Oil Company was acquired by Turtle Wax, Inc. and is now headquartered back in its hometown in the Chicago area.
quote:
Originally posted by Sarge:
Tim,
Allow me to approach this form a different angle.
Amsoil has been in business since what? 1959 or something.
Since you insist again on going off topic to talk about AMSOIL, it look's like you need a lesson in AMSOIL history: "Amatuzio began conducting serious research in 1963. By 1966 he had formulated a synthetic motor oil and put it to use in vehicles in northern Minnesota. Throughout the late ’60s Amatuzio continued his research and development and sold commercially available synthetic oils under a variety of names. In 1970 he incorporated his own name into a commercially sold product called AMMOIL. In 1971 this product name was changed to AMZOIL and it continued to be sold commercially. The true milestone came in 1972 when AMZOIL became the first synthetic motor oil in the world to meet American Petroleum Institute criteria. The new lubricant performed like no other before it. When the first can appeared on the market in 1972, it signaled the birth of an entire industry. AMSOIL synthetic lubricants have expanded the boundaries of lubrication science and redefined the performance possibilities of modern machinery and engines."
quote:
Originally posted by Sarge: In this 50 years they have captured less than 1% of the global sales of the engine oil market. If it was so good why such a small market share?
AMSOIL doesn't compete globally. Just US and Canada with a few outlets worldwide. And only in the synthetic oil market which is about 10% of all oil sales in the US. And in the extended oil change market, which is about 10% of that, AMSOIL has far more of that share, about 80%, than Mobil 1 EP and Castrol Edge. AMSOIL refuses to sell to WalMart and the other huge retailers to support their AMSOIL dealers.
quote:
Originally posted by Sarge: They If it was so good why wouldn't the automotive manufacturers all use it?
AMSOIL is a US company and made here. Most automotive manufacturers have world wide manufacturing and distribution. Why would they want to use it if it is not available to them and their worldwide customers? Auto manufactures tend to use the lowest cost oil that meets their specs that gets them past the warranty period. And many have their own oil brands they push. Why pay more dollars for the best oil, when a midlevel oil accomplishes all of this for them? And NONE of them say you can't upgrade to AMSOIL or that it will void factory warranty, even with extended oil change intervals.
quote:
Originally posted by Sarge: Amsoil has spent significant resources polishing the pig with all kinds of 4ball wear test and paid "test" showing they are the best of the best.
Yep. And undisputed by the industry. The 4 ball test is a widely accepted ASTM test. All oil manufacturers use it. Only AMSOIL publishes the test results. None of the competition disputes AMSOIL's test data.
quote:
Originally posted by Sarge: yet only have a fraction Mobil1 has 60%+ of the market.
Mobil 1 only has 10% of the extended oil change interval market. AMSOIL has 80%.
quote:
Originally posted by Sarge: They just laugh at Amsoil and make no attempt to even acknowledge Amsoil exist. Same with SOPUS.
Where have they laughed? I found 8 results on AMSOIL on the Mobil1 website. Seems like a lot of acknowledgment. Why do they copy AMSOIL in these firsts? Seems Exxon must admire AMSOIL's accomplishments a lot to try to copy them (sincerest form of flattery). In fact Mobil told Amatuzio he should feel honored that they copied him when Mobil came out with Mobil 1 25,000 mile oil a few years after AMSOIL :

The Company of Firsts
AMSOIL has a documented history of innovation and leadership.

First to develop an API-rated 100 percent synthetic motor oil.
First to introduce the concept of "extended drain intervals" with a recommended 25,000-mile/1-year drain interval.
First U.S. company to utilize the NOACK volatility test as a standard of performance excellence.
First to produce synthetic motor oils for diesel engines, racing engines, turbo and marine engines.
First to introduce synthetic oils that legitimately contribute to improving fuel efficiency.
First to manufacture synthetic gear lube for automotive use.
First to manufacture a 100:1 pre-mix synthetic 2-cycle oil.
First to manufacture a synthetic automatic transmission fluid for automotive use.
Last edited by timvipond
I defer to the forum here. I tried to keep the subject matter to TallPauls original subject matter....but no...we all have to be trolled by Tim The Amsoil Nazi. "Where is the data on TCW3" "Here is the history of Amsoil" "Here is all the polished pig Amsoil marketing links"
Just unreal. Tim it does not work man.
I am heading to my place in Grand Cayman Tim. I'll check back with you from there. My ranch is just outside of Boerne. Your close. You should really stop by and see our operation here. I have one of the top Amsoil "Jobbers" here who is a good friend and very succesful engine builder. I also have a good friend who is a Shaefeers distributor. We all get along just fine and have some very good discussions on oil and such. You should join one of our "feed store and coffee" discussions. I am truly amazed at your post and must met you to see for myself.
quote:
Originally posted by Sarge:
I got tired of talking with you Tim so I went and had an intelligent discussion with one of my steers.
Unbelievable from a grown man. Just unreal.
I defer to the forum here. I tried to keep the subject matter to TallPauls original subject matter....but no...we all have to be trolled by Tim The Amsoil Nazi. "Where is the data on TCW3" "Here is the history of Amsoil" "Here is all the polished pig Amsoil marketing links"
Just unreal.
I just wanted to discuss TCW3. It was you and others who kept bringing up and asking about AMSOIL. I was just answering your questions. You don't seem very interested in discussing TCW3. Why is that?

You said "All I can say is we have documented well over 6 million miles in our volunteers automobiles since I began this experiment.
To date not one negative. So many postives from quiter fuel pumps to MPG increases to quieter valve assembly.
I do not defend nor sale anything. I just set it up and documented all of it."

So let's see your documentation...
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
quote:
Originally posted by Sarge:
I got tired of talking with you Tim so I went and had an intelligent discussion with one of my steers.
Unbelievable from a grown man. Just unreal.
I defer to the forum here. I tried to keep the subject matter to TallPauls original subject matter....but no...we all have to be trolled by Tim The Amsoil Nazi. "Where is the data on TCW3" "Here is the history of Amsoil" "Here is all the polished pig Amsoil marketing links"
Just unreal.
I just wanted to discuss TCW3. It was you and others who kept bringing up and asking about AMSOIL. I was just answering your questions. You don't seem very interested in discussing TCW3. Why is that?

You said "All I can say is we have documented well over 6 million miles in our volunteers automobiles since I began this experiment.
To date not one negative. So many postives from quiter fuel pumps to MPG increases to quieter valve assembly.
I do not defend nor sale anything. I just set it up and documented all of it."

So let's see your documentation...

It is all posted on the WWW. Have fun!
quote:
Originally posted by Sarge:
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
quote:
Originally posted by Sarge:
I got tired of talking with you Tim so I went and had an intelligent discussion with one of my steers.
Unbelievable from a grown man. Just unreal.
I defer to the forum here. I tried to keep the subject matter to TallPauls original subject matter....but no...we all have to be trolled by Tim The Amsoil Nazi. "Where is the data on TCW3" "Here is the history of Amsoil" "Here is all the polished pig Amsoil marketing links"
Just unreal.
I just wanted to discuss TCW3. It was you and others who kept bringing up and asking about AMSOIL. I was just answering your questions. You don't seem very interested in discussing TCW3. Why is that?

You said "All I can say is we have documented well over 6 million miles in our volunteers automobiles since I began this experiment.
To date not one negative. So many postives from quiter fuel pumps to MPG increases to quieter valve assembly.
I do not defend nor sale anything. I just set it up and documented all of it."

So let's see your documentation...

It is all posted on the WWW. Have fun!
Where is YOUR documentation? Please provide.
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
quote:
Originally posted by Sarge:
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
quote:
Originally posted by Sarge:
I got tired of talking with you Tim so I went and had an intelligent discussion with one of my steers.
Unbelievable from a grown man. Just unreal.
I defer to the forum here. I tried to keep the subject matter to TallPauls original subject matter....but no...we all have to be trolled by Tim The Amsoil Nazi. "Where is the data on TCW3" "Here is the history of Amsoil" "Here is all the polished pig Amsoil marketing links"
Just unreal.
I just wanted to discuss TCW3. It was you and others who kept bringing up and asking about AMSOIL. I was just answering your questions. You don't seem very interested in discussing TCW3. Why is that?

You said "All I can say is we have documented well over 6 million miles in our volunteers automobiles since I began this experiment.
To date not one negative. So many postives from quiter fuel pumps to MPG increases to quieter valve assembly.
I do not defend nor sale anything. I just set it up and documented all of it."

So let's see your documentation...

It is all posted on the WWW. Have fun!
Where is YOUR documentation? Please provide.

I have heard Silvan Learning Center has opening in their reading and comprehension class Tim. You can contact them at your convenience.
Documentation of thousands of people discussing putting TCW3 in their fuel? You are high aren't you?
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
Tim it was your shameless self serving Amsoil plug, just like 95% of your posts here plugging Amsoil that tossed this topic into the crapper. We were trying to discuss TCW3 and UCL in general, can we do that in peace without Amsoil plugs, ads, statistics, and history? You are turning people off to Amsoil big time!

AD

Amsoil is aware of Tim trust me. Gotta run...the car is here....off to Cayman....
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
quote:
Originally posted by Sarge:
I got tired of talking with you Tim so I went and had an intelligent discussion with one of my steers.
Unbelievable from a grown man. Just unreal.
I defer to the forum here. I tried to keep the subject matter to TallPauls original subject matter....but no...we all have to be trolled by Tim The Amsoil Nazi. "Where is the data on TCW3" "Here is the history of Amsoil" "Here is all the polished pig Amsoil marketing links"
Just unreal.
I just wanted to discuss TCW3. It was you and others who kept bringing up and asking about AMSOIL. I was just answering your questions. You don't seem very interested in discussing TCW3. Why is that?

You said "All I can say is we have documented well over 6 million miles in our volunteers automobiles since I began this experiment.
To date not one negative. So many postives from quiter fuel pumps to MPG increases to quieter valve assembly.
I do not defend nor sale anything. I just set it up and documented all of it."

So let's see your documentation...


If you just wanted to discuss TC-W3, explain this then:

Tim Vipond
Level 4 - 251 to 500 posts
Posted Oct 14, 3:54 PM Hide Post
Why not use a product formulated specifically for your purpose such as https://www.amsoil.com/storefront/api.aspx?zo=1181889 ?

Not only is that NOT TC-W3, it is also, despite your claim, the first mention of Amsoil in this thread.

No one was talking Amsoil till you stuck your oar in.
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
quote:
Originally posted by Sarge:
I got tired of talking with you Tim so I went and had an intelligent discussion with one of my steers.
Unbelievable from a grown man. Just unreal.
I defer to the forum here. I tried to keep the subject matter to TallPauls original subject matter....but no...we all have to be trolled by Tim The Amsoil Nazi. "Where is the data on TCW3" "Here is the history of Amsoil" "Here is all the polished pig Amsoil marketing links"
Just unreal.
I just wanted to discuss TCW3. It was you and others who kept bringing up and asking about AMSOIL. I was just answering your questions. You don't seem very interested in discussing TCW3. Why is that?

You said "All I can say is we have documented well over 6 million miles in our volunteers automobiles since I began this experiment.
To date not one negative. So many postives from quiter fuel pumps to MPG increases to quieter valve assembly.
I do not defend nor sale anything. I just set it up and documented all of it."

So let's see your documentation...


If you just wanted to discuss TC-W3, explain this then:

Tim Vipond
Level 4 - 251 to 500 posts
Posted Oct 14, 3:54 PM Hide Post
Why not use a product formulated specifically for your purpose such as https://www.amsoil.com/storefront/api.aspx?zo=1181889 ?

Not only is that NOT TC-W3, it is also, despite your claim, the first mention of Amsoil in this thread.

No one was talking Amsoil till you stuck your oar in.
It was a legitimate question. Why use TCW3 when the TCW3 manufacturers don't recommend it. Why not use products that were formulated for, tested, and have already proven for that application? I was hoping for a good reason, but none was given. Still waiting...
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
Open your mind Tim think out of the box, try and learn. Join LS1 ask for a good reason why all those people are using TCW3, and with good results, then tell'em how you really feel! Plug Amsoil there, I'm sure they'd love to hear from ya!

AD


AMSOIL is already discussed there. I think there is an AMSOIL sponsor there. Very positive results. Good enough for me.

I got a response from the Pennzoil technical group:

From: pqsandcarcaretechnical-us@shell.com
Subject: Re: Pennzoil Synthetic Marine Full Synthetic 2 cycle oil in 4 cycle engines.
Date: December 13, 2010 8:34:45 AM CST
To: timvipond@comcast.net

Dear Consumer,

No matter what other people say. Do not use 2 cycle engine oil in a
4 cycle motor. You will cause major damage to your engine.

Regards,
Technical Service, sn
On Sun, 12 Dec 2010 14:58:10 -0600 you wrote:

Do you recommend the use of Pennzoil Marine Full Synthetic 2 cycle
oil in 4 cycle gasoline automotive engines?

Why or why not?

It is being recommended and tested here: http://www.ls1.com/forums/
showthread.php?t=91206 .

Any benefits? Any drawbacks? Have you done testing?



[Inline text/html]
The way I read that it can be taken as (used in the crankcase instead of engine oil), and yes that will wreck an engine. It should have been asked if it could be added to the gas as a UCL. The legal dept would probably so no anyway. So the question IMO was worded wrong.

When you think out of the box you're on your own. The response was typical a of an oil company's legal response. Maybe they should try and ask the question again. My .02$

AD
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
The way I read that it can be taken as (used in the crankcase instead of engine oil), and yes that will wreck an engine. It should have been asked if it could be added to the gas as a UCL. The legal dept would probably so no anyway. So the question IMO was worded wrong.

When you think out of the box you're on your own. The response was typical a of an oil company's legal response. Maybe they should try and ask the question again. My .02$

AD


I provided them the link where the discussion takes place about their product and the application.

Feel free to contact them with your questions.

I'm sure Shell scientists, like all scientists, "think out of the box" all the time.
Doubt they'll even bother with the link, the question was worded wrong, or intentionally worded that way to get a calculated response. Reading that question that answer is almost word for word how I would have replied.

Their answer doesn't matter to me, I know it works, I know MMO works, doesn't matter what I'm told. The LS1 forum just proves my point even more. Children ask questions a certain way to get an answer they are looking for. LOL

AD

Nice try Tim I see it was you who asked the question...................LOL
Guys, here is the scoop, our Amsoil Salesman named Tim Vipond, has been BANNED from Bitog and just about every other automotive forum.

He will say ANYTHING to push Amsoil and line his pockets with your money, all of Amsoil's so called tests are BOGUS since the lab that does there tests are owned by Amsoil.

I do not need any tests on either 2-cycle oil or MMO in the fuel since I know that it works and does no harm.

Tim has been laughed at on so many other forums as just another pushy Amsoil salesman.

Do any of the so called automakers recommend using Amsoil, or do they say that it is there factory fill.

Remember guys, when you listen to Tim, you need to realize that he is not a car guy, but he is really an Amsoil Salesperson.

Tim, worked on the fuel side at Shell, that is where he gets his pension, he is just shilling Amsoil for some extra money. He has absolutely no knowledge about MOTOR OIL's or anything else.

I am willing to bet that he was just a PAPER PUSHER for Shell and his credentials are really worthless for any discussion that we are having here.

Tim has a habit of jumping into threads just to push his own agenda, he cares more about putting money in his own pocket as opposed to what is best for us car guys.

I know many Amsoil salesman who feel that Tim is doing a disservice for the Amsoil brand name, the problem is that since he is an INDEPENDENT AMSOIL SALESMAN he can say what he wants and the sad truth is that as long as Amsoil is selling product, they really do not care.

I long for the day when Amsoil is sold at Wal-Mart and they get rid of worthless sales people like Tim who will say anything to push the product, until that time comes, then I guess we will have to keep reading Tim's wacky posts that just provide us with confusion with the hopes that we will buy Amsoil products.

All he provides us is with confusion, scare tactics, personal attacks on other products with absolutely no proof that these other products are harmful to our engines.
Having used both MMO and 2 cycle TC-W3 in the fuel, I lean towards the latter.

It does the same thing, and if you buy the Supertech, is cheaper to boot.

But, since it is not aimed at the 4 cycle market, of course they don't reccommend it. That doesn't mean it doesn't work.

And they will not do so. Probably because some bone head will either add a quart or more to his crankcase, or add that or more to his fuel. And seek legal action when he wrecks his ride.

Just like that bone head who ran the wrong oil in his turbo diesel way over the oci, and expected Ford to cover his screw up.
quote:
It does the same thing, and if you buy the Supertech, is cheaper to boot.

But, since it is not aimed at the 4 cycle market, of course they don't reccommend it. That doesn't mean it doesn't work.

And they will not do so. Probably because some bone head will either add a quart or more to his crankcase, or add that or more to his fuel. And seek legal action when he wrecks his ride.

Just like that bone head who ran the wrong oil in his turbo diesel way over the oci, and expected Ford to cover his screw up.


Good points. I think the % of people using it as a UCL is so small the companies making the stuff see little to no profit margin in it, so why bother marketing it. And yea the bone head who fouls his plugs because he used to much, will quickly cry foul. It's car buffs that think out of the box and experiment, and find things like TCW3 work well.

AD
quote:
Originally posted by TallPaul:
Since last April I have been routinely adding 1 ounce of 2-cycle oil (TC3W or whatever the high standard stuff is) to each 4 gallons of gasoline in my vehicles. I figure it is going to help lube fuel pump, injectors, rings (especially on start up when oil has drained off cyl walls), valves, etc. Also may help keep things clean. Any thoughts?


You're on the right track. TCW3 is the right one to use. It's ashless, thus catconv friendly.

It is a constant use thing though. But all that will happen if you stop is that your engine will go back to the way it was.

The ratio is right. Less will do no good. More, well at worst, you "might" foul a plug. Just drive awhile and top the tank off to restore the mixture..

I did look for the PZ brand. It's synth, and of course costs more,but couldn't find it. But all the reading I've done tells me that the Walmart Supertech works just as well. And it's much cheaper.

Also read that you should shake up the container before you use it as it kills the smell.
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
Having used both MMO and 2 cycle TC-W3 in the fuel, I lean towards the latter.

It does the same thing, and if you buy the Supertech, is cheaper to boot.


Just remember,the supertech has a good deal of solvents in the formula, and the 1 oz/5 gallons of gasoline was not based on the rather thin and dilute super tech stuff.


Someone will have to give some input on how much more to use in the case of ST....I would think 1.2 oz/5 gallons.


From Tim V.
[QUOTE] No matter what other people say. Do not use 2 cycle engine oil in a
4 cycle motor. You will cause major damage to your engine.


Well Tim if you're reading my response to Trajan....where are all those 'blown up' engines on all the forums including this one.......we talking 500:1---640:1 ASHLESS......GIVE ME A BREAK!

I go two steps further .......Acetone,Stabil(ethanal fix),and the fuel lube. WORKS BETTER THAN EVEN A PROFFESSONAL DEALER FUEL SYSTEM CLEAN,OR EVEN DOUBLE DOSE TECHCRON.........PEROID! This is done with every fuel up and it actually pays for itself...did the math!
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:

Well Tim if you're reading my response to Trajan....where are all those 'blown up' engines on all the forums including this one.......we talking 500:1---640:1 ASHLESS......GIVE ME A BREAK!
You'll have to ask Shell Oil Company. That was their answer, not mine.



I have a better Idea Tim,let's have shell ask us... what the Real world data is,becuase we know better than they,becuase we live it!

For example,the drug companies don't have all the facts until people report back that a drug is good or bad to their doctors based on actual use......making us the last,and final 'study' of a new drug....NICE,ISN'T IT!

Have you noticed all the lawsuits with drugs being pulled off the market lately......even though they passed all the 'studies',and various hurdles to get in the market place as the final proof for my argument.

This reality also works with everything else in the market place including lubricants,hence all the constant change,recalls,etc.


I am sure Shell told you what they did only for legal reasons, not scientific reasons. After all,the data makes the only real argument!

In sum,adding 1 oz to 5 gallons of ashless two stroke oil in ones tank,will only do good,especially if you cycle MMO for a duration to vary and enhance the effect for lubricity and cleanliness, better still with top tier fuel.
As far as I can see, Amsoil 2 cycle oil is not TC-W3 certified, thus not suitable for cars that have cats.

Why would I pay $10.60, plus shipping, etc, for a 12oz bottle of that PI, when I can pay @$12 for the Supertech TC-W3?. For 128ozs.....

The PI is not cost effective. The ROI is horrible.

I can treat 42.6 tanks of gas on the ST. 3oz per tank. 16,800 miles on a gallon of ST.

The equivilent PI, since you use it every 4K miles, is a bit more than $42.40. Not counting shipping.

So I can either pay @$12 every 16-17K miles, or more than $40.

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