And you forget Tim.
I have no dog in the hunt. I am not advocating putting anything in your fuel. You are. I am not. And you look sorta silly summarily dismissing 500K folks (last post count on the subject using Web Trends tools) post on the subject. Because they have not paid SWRI or somebody to verify their personal observations.
I see we are all up early and I have to go feed the cattle. But it is fun anyway and I humbly drop out of this as I have been a mod on a major forum and I realize we have digressed here. I apologize to the moderators here and will drop the subject as it obviously is not answering the OP's original subject matter.
Read our primer articles on High Mileage Oil, Synthetic Oil and Kinematic Viscosity
quote:Originally posted by Sarge:
Is this just an Amsoil marketing site?
I sure hope not, maybe he has a deal with the mods, if so their house their rules. If not I wish they'd muzzle him so we could stay on topic!
I'm interested in your MMO feedback and results from the guys you have testing it. My family used it for decades with great results in both oil and gas. So did my buddy in NY. But they aren't scientists so Tim would rule them out, LOL.
Maybe you can post a link to this on the LS1 site if it is allowed and let them see what the Amsoil rep thinks of their findings.
AD
So you still haven't answered the very basic question why the 2 cycle oil companies aren't recommending this. Not to mention the gasoline and automotive companies. What do they know that you don't? Billions of dollars on research and testing? Still waiting....
Sarge did the research, the results posted on the LS1 forum speak volumes. Why not join the LS1 forum and ask? Lots of people there can give you answers, and you can explain to each and everyone of them why you feel they are wrong. Go for it! Oh wait they already have an Amsoil rep with some class, they'd probably run you off, nothing to gain there, sorry!
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What makes you think I feel they are wrong? They can do whatever they please. I'd just like to see scientific proof that it works and won't damage anything or decrease performance long term. Again, why don't the 2 cycle oil, gasoline and vehicle companies back this idea? Why doesn't the EPA back this idea? What do they know that you don't? Still waiting...again....
Ask them Tim. I know plenty of people doing it with either MMO or TCW3 for decades, and it works. You don't believe me, so go to the LS1 board and ask for yourself, mention the EPA while you're at it. Just because the EPA doesn't back it means nothing to me, and many others.
There are things the FDA approves and later it is found certain products they approved have killed people. Just look at the negative side effects many approved meds have..........Many smart people think out of the box Tim, and experiment with some pretty impressive results. Sarge proved it, you just can't accept it, go on LS1 and tell'em all they're wrong, or they don't have the EPA blessings.
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There are things the FDA approves and later it is found certain products they approved have killed people. Just look at the negative side effects many approved meds have..........Many smart people think out of the box Tim, and experiment with some pretty impressive results. Sarge proved it, you just can't accept it, go on LS1 and tell'em all they're wrong, or they don't have the EPA blessings.
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I have. Since Sarge is recommending a Shell product, I have contacted them by email for info.quote:Originally posted by ADFD1:
Ask them Tim.
Again you flip/flop. Earlier you said "I recently tried TC-W3 and for some reason like the MMO better in the gas. The engine seems to run well with either, but I have given up slight mpgs with the TC-W3. I also noticed that if you give too big a dose of TC-W3 the engine lacks some power, where as you would have to go hog wild with the MMO. Just my observations, YMMV."quote:Originally posted by ADFD1: I know plenty of people doing it with either MMO or TCW3 for decades, and it works.
Don't see them backing Amsoil use either. But I know of car makers who back Top Tier fuel. And one who backs Invigorate. And Techron.
Don't see the EPA telling anyone not to use TC-W3 in the fuel either.
Don't see the EPA telling anyone not to use TC-W3 in the fuel either.
Sarge hasn't posted on his LS1 2 cycle oil thread since Feb. People are asking him questions and he isn't responding. What's up with that?
Flip flop, you call that? Get real! Those are my observations. Further testing is needed for me with the TCW3. At least I have an open mind and I am willing to try and experiment, it is quite clear I am not here to sell as you are! My experiences are real, not made up in some lab to sell product.
In my case maybe less TCW3 is needed, maybe more, or maybe in my situation MMO is better. My NY buddy who I mention a lot noticed TCW3 reduced oil consumption, when added to the gas, something MMO didn't do for him, and he's been using MMO for close to 40 years I think.
Oh yea and Sarge mentioned 300 people testing MMO gas and oil IIRC. That caught me attention.
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In my case maybe less TCW3 is needed, maybe more, or maybe in my situation MMO is better. My NY buddy who I mention a lot noticed TCW3 reduced oil consumption, when added to the gas, something MMO didn't do for him, and he's been using MMO for close to 40 years I think.
Oh yea and Sarge mentioned 300 people testing MMO gas and oil IIRC. That caught me attention.
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quote:Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
What makes you think I feel they are wrong? They can do whatever they please. I'd just like to see scientific proof that it works and won't damage anything or decrease performance long term. Again, why don't the 2 cycle oil, gasoline and vehicle companies back this idea? Why doesn't the EPA back this idea? What do they know that you don't? Still waiting...again....
Show me where the EPA back using Amsoil PI Tim.
Show you where it doesnt hurt anything long term? You gotta be absolutely high Tim. I think the TCW3 has been tested more miles by more people than any other product I ever heard of! And (God forbid) they actually are sharing their experiance all over the internet for the past 2-3 years!
quote:Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
Sarge hasn't posted on his LS1 2 cycle oil thread since Feb. People are asking him questions and he isn't responding. What's up with that?
For the reading and comprehension impaired I say again. I retired from there Tim. I pretty much retired from the INTERNET for this very reason. Just so much BS and silliness it is just painful.
Some of you sure are fickle. First you don't want me to talk about AMSOIL, then that is all you want to talk about and ask me questions.quote:Originally posted by Sarge:
Show me where the EPA back using Amsoil PI Tim.
From http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g2543.pdf
"The fleet of test vehicles was put on a rolling chassis
dynamometer before and after P.i. treatment, measuring
each vehicle’s fuel economy numbers according to the
same method mandated by the federal government
and used by auto manufacturers to determine vehicle
fuel economy ratings. The blue bars on Graph E
indicate pre-treatment fuel economy numbers. The
red bars indicate fuel economy following one tank of
operation on P.i., showing an average fuel economy
improvement of more than 2 percent."
Don't you think the Federal Government or FTC or anyone would cry foul if this data was incorrect? They haven't.
Or their environmental claims of reducing vehicle emissions?
Another Ad! OUCH! Did I miss the EPA endorsements?
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quote:Originally posted by Tim Vipond:Some of you sure are fickle. First you don't want me to talk about AMSOIL, then that is all you want to talk about and ask me questions.quote:Originally posted by Sarge:
Show me where the EPA back using Amsoil PI Tim.
From http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g2543.pdf
"The fleet of test vehicles was put on a rolling chassis
dynamometer before and after P.i. treatment, measuring
each vehicle’s fuel economy numbers according to the
same method mandated by the federal government
and used by auto manufacturers to determine vehicle
fuel economy ratings. The blue bars on Graph E
indicate pre-treatment fuel economy numbers. The
red bars indicate fuel economy following one tank of
operation on P.i., showing an average fuel economy
improvement of more than 2 percent."
Don't you think the Federal Government or FTC or anyone would cry foul if this data was incorrect? They haven't.
Or their environmental claims of reducing vehicle emissions?
That's it? We haven't been sued so it must be true? My God...you are insane.
You know Tim....I have known guys like you in life. Everybody knows them as a fool. However in their mind they are brilliant. Your constant babble about Amsoil's silly ass marketing all over the INTERNET on every car forum....pimping yourself shamelessly....well I guess it is funny as hell you think you have any type of credibility anywhere with anybody.
You think of yourself as quite sly by asking for ridiculous "certified testing" over a simple fuel add that has been around for 50+years. Guys have been using 2stroke oil in their fuel long before I showed up.I am selling nothing. Your agenda is clear (your profit) and why this forum puts up with your silly painful post is beyond me.... but it isn't my forum.
I'll say again.....I document folks experience as they share it with me. Period. That is the end of it. Take with it what you wish. I could care less.I have no agenda and have nothing to prove to some silly Amsoil "Jobber" from Houston for sure.
Maybe Pablo or CompSyn can share with you how much damage you Amsoil dealers do to Amsoil Corp. on these forums with your silly Amsoil sponsored 4ball test et al.
So the kabillion post in numerous forums reflecting personal non -paid testimony must be true because the Feds havent sued anybody for saying TCW3 in their fuel had benefits. Using your own rational Tim.
Now shotgun, I shot a lot of that too, mostly trap on Eastern Long Island. I never reloaded them though.
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PS MMO claims on the label says: Improves Fuel Economy". They have been in business close to 85 years give or take. No problems I'm aware of making that claim, "Cleans Engines From The Inside Out", i think that's on the label too. No problems with that claim either. The nice thing about TCW3 and MMO is there are no company shills pushing it on these boards. Just honest testimony, and a lot of it too!
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PS MMO claims on the label says: Improves Fuel Economy". They have been in business close to 85 years give or take. No problems I'm aware of making that claim, "Cleans Engines From The Inside Out", i think that's on the label too. No problems with that claim either. The nice thing about TCW3 and MMO is there are no company shills pushing it on these boards. Just honest testimony, and a lot of it too!
AD
So why are you here again? Oh yeah, to provide us the useful data you've collected from anonymous posters with anecdotes which some say two stroke oil is good for 4 stroke engines and others say they saw no difference, and others like AD say they lost mpg and performance, and others worried about long term damage. Two stroke oil companies aren't supporting any of your statements. They'd be run out of town if they followed your example.quote:Originally posted by Sarge:
I pretty much retired from the INTERNET for this very reason. Just so much BS and silliness it is just painful.
quote:Originally posted by Sarge:quote:Originally posted by Tim Vipond:Some of you sure are fickle. First you don't want me to talk about AMSOIL, then that is all you want to talk about and ask me questions.quote:Originally posted by Sarge:
Show me where the EPA back using Amsoil PI Tim.
From http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g2543.pdf
"The fleet of test vehicles was put on a rolling chassis
dynamometer before and after P.i. treatment, measuring
each vehicle’s fuel economy numbers according to the
same method mandated by the federal government
and used by auto manufacturers to determine vehicle
fuel economy ratings. The blue bars on Graph E
indicate pre-treatment fuel economy numbers. The
red bars indicate fuel economy following one tank of
operation on P.i., showing an average fuel economy
improvement of more than 2 percent."
Don't you think the Federal Government or FTC or anyone would cry foul if this data was incorrect? They haven't.
Or their environmental claims of reducing vehicle emissions?
That's it? We haven't been sued so it must be true? .
The oil industry and government does a pretty good job keeping oil company claims in check.
Exxon took Castrol to task over their definition of synthetic oil.
Castrol took Royal Purple to task over their testimonials they tried to pass on as fact. They forced Royal Purple to correct their "information" on their website.
Castrol and Valvoline took Exxon to task over Mobil 1 failure to pass wear tests that Exxon claimed they met.
FTC took many of those gasoline saving devices to task and took them off the market.
FTC took ZMAX to task and had them change some of their claims and set up a consumer refund account.
No two stroke oil manufacture has made the claims you make as they know they couldn't prove them.
If you are so certain that 2 stroke oil works marvels and miracles in 4 stroke engines, why don't you market it? Maybe because you know deep down you wouldn't be able to prove it?
quote:Originally posted by ADFD1:
PS MMO claims on the label says: Improves Fuel Economy". They have been in business close to 85 years give or take. No problems I'm aware of making that claim, "Cleans Engines From The Inside Out", i think that's on the label too. No problems with that claim either.
AD
Didn't Marvel go out of business about 10 years ago? Hmmm....
Are you a company shill for MMO? Doesn't your anonymous dad and uncle push it and sell it at their anonymous auto shop? Seems like you bring it up repeatedly in every thread. Any test data you would like to share? Or is it just anonymous anecdotes...
Tim,
Allow me to approach this form a different angle.
Amsoil has been in business since what? 1959 or something. In this 50 years they have captured less than 1% of the global sales of the engine oil market. If it was so good why such a small market share? If it was so good why wouldn't the automotive manufacturers all use it? Amsoil has spent significant resources polishing the pig with all kinds of 4ball wear test and paid "test" showing they are the best of the best. Mobil1 has 60%+ of the market. They just laugh at Amsoil and make no attempt to even acknowledge Amsoil exist. Same with SOPUS.
In the fast lube market here in the US. Amsoil has a 4% share and Mobil1 has their 60% again.
But lets look at the top seller in these fast oil change joints. It is additives Tim. This is why I even took on the effort to have this "additive" discussed among those who are making buying decisions. If I can get the same results (real or imagined) with something that cost pennies per application versus an application that cost $20 bucks....then it is worth discussing. So I did. I also have discussed on the WWW nitrogen in your tires, high flow air filters, magic spark plugs on and on and all kinds of oil discussions and marketing hype versus real world results. Royal Purple took a beating in these marketing versus real world results discussions. Amsoil did very well. I have led return on investment discussions as ROI pertains to various oil products and additives.
The TCW3 discussion is no different Tim. Nobody selling anything. Just discussion. Nobody gives a rats butt about any marketing test. We are discussing the usage and individual observations of the usage of TCW3 in their fuel.
Hopefully you can see how far off the mark you are by your position here. We are not selling anything (unlike you)...so we have no desire nor requirement to test anything nor provide data to any knucklehead. We are discussing individual observations. Good or bad. We discuss it. Many have posted compression test....some share before and after state exhaust test data when they got their car inspected....stuff like that....and it is all out there on the WWW.
Get it Tim?
http://www.amsoil.com/news/200..._fastlube_market.pdf
Allow me to approach this form a different angle.
Amsoil has been in business since what? 1959 or something. In this 50 years they have captured less than 1% of the global sales of the engine oil market. If it was so good why such a small market share? If it was so good why wouldn't the automotive manufacturers all use it? Amsoil has spent significant resources polishing the pig with all kinds of 4ball wear test and paid "test" showing they are the best of the best. Mobil1 has 60%+ of the market. They just laugh at Amsoil and make no attempt to even acknowledge Amsoil exist. Same with SOPUS.
In the fast lube market here in the US. Amsoil has a 4% share and Mobil1 has their 60% again.
But lets look at the top seller in these fast oil change joints. It is additives Tim. This is why I even took on the effort to have this "additive" discussed among those who are making buying decisions. If I can get the same results (real or imagined) with something that cost pennies per application versus an application that cost $20 bucks....then it is worth discussing. So I did. I also have discussed on the WWW nitrogen in your tires, high flow air filters, magic spark plugs on and on and all kinds of oil discussions and marketing hype versus real world results. Royal Purple took a beating in these marketing versus real world results discussions. Amsoil did very well. I have led return on investment discussions as ROI pertains to various oil products and additives.
The TCW3 discussion is no different Tim. Nobody selling anything. Just discussion. Nobody gives a rats butt about any marketing test. We are discussing the usage and individual observations of the usage of TCW3 in their fuel.
Hopefully you can see how far off the mark you are by your position here. We are not selling anything (unlike you)...so we have no desire nor requirement to test anything nor provide data to any knucklehead. We are discussing individual observations. Good or bad. We discuss it. Many have posted compression test....some share before and after state exhaust test data when they got their car inspected....stuff like that....and it is all out there on the WWW.
Get it Tim?
http://www.amsoil.com/news/200..._fastlube_market.pdf