2000hours old oil is better than 200hours old oil

Please consider the following items also:

- oil degrades in time so your 2000h oil is more degraded than your 200h
- the additive package loses its strength in time. some dopes will not have effect anymore after 2000h
- when making a lot of cold-starts, fuel can stay behind in your oil (less than 10 mile trips)
- using the oil for 2000h will result in more contamination than the 200h

maybe this contamination is causing the stickiness of your oil, ;-)

I'm sure there are a lot of visitors here who can add some more remarks to this...?

Last but not least: to prevent engine wear when coldstarting: take it easy, give the oil some time!

eAzYE
Perhaps you missed my first sentence "If all the parameters (of oil )are kept within allowable limits" , yes of course with the help of some equipment which removes solid particle upto 1 micron, removes moisture and unburnt fuel and also removes combustion blowby dissolved in oil,acid formation will come down to minimum, less metallic particles and absence of moisture will retard the process of oxidation, There will be very little contamination in oil and so workload on additives will decrease resulting in less depletion of additives.Yes,there will be some depletion which will be made up by new oil charged for topping.Topping will be normal, not more.
Yes, in normal course , you cannot run the engine for 2000 hours, but suppose you have installed a system which is doing all that I have just told,it can be achieved, what do you think?

i am looking for buyer who can buythe used machine oil .without refine.

Is this thread a joke?

2000 hours at 70 miles per hour is 140,000 miles. At 40 mph average it's 80,000 miles. Even the best synthetics should not be run over 10,000 to 20,000 miles. I find it extremely difficult to believe the ring to cylinder wall seal can be that good as to prevent blowby to the point of being able to run oil 2000 hours. Sealing like that would increase friction causing heat and reduced fuel mileage.

Hanif,
This is a serious topic, once the oil has run in any engine for full life, it is a different case as all the additives have been lost, contamination was allowed to grow and accumulate. But here, i say that if something is installed on the engine with new oil and it removes solid contaminants upto 1 micron , removes all liquid and gaseous contaminants continuously and keeps all the desirable parameters within allowable limits, the oil will never reach a position when you have to sell it as scrap.
TallPaul, this topic is not a joke, please read it and all the postings in No More Change Of Oil topic, you will agree that the topic needs lot of discussion

Sorry Prabhakar, my statement "Is this thread a joke" was rather thoughtless. As for the "No More Change of Oil," I believe there is a company, Synlube, that does advocate never changing oil when you use their oil. But I would think you need (as you noted above) an apparatus to clean the oil and re-introduce additives. That would be very expensive and impractical in my opinion.

Getting oil to cling by degenerative oxidation does not seem good. Ester based oils or ester blend components are good for clinging to metal for reduced startup wear. Some folks have installed pre-oiler systems to reduce startup wear. These can be had relatively cheaply and pump up the oil pressure (and thus oil to bearings) prior to ignition.

@ Prabhakar Agrawal
You have interesting theories. What are "cold start conditions" for you? I mean, what is an ambient winter cold start temperature for you in India?

If your engine is well designed and your oil is in a good condition, you will have even under cold start conditions a perfect oil pressure in less then 2 seconds. (-20°C)

You could get the same "oil sticking" capabilities by simply using an ester based oil.

I guess most engines don't have an oilfilter with a 1 micron filter fineness.

What do you do with sludge formation? It is really hard to analyze the point, when the oil really needs to be changed before sludge occurs?

Callisa,
I am talking about Cold starting of Engines in any season, even at 40 deg C when the engine is being restarted after 10 to 12 hours.Even at 40 deg C the viscosity of 15W40 oil will be around 115 cst, you yourself have admitted that it will take less than 2 secs to develop full pressure,, let this time lag be only 1 sec, even a few rotations or movement of some parts of 1400 RPM engine in dry condition without any oil film will cause considerable damage,this will happen at every cold starting.You can very well imagine the cumulative condition
Is Ester based oil is a synthetic oil, i am talking about every normal oil which is being used, for achieving this you have not to use some special oil.
Sludge is formed by the oxidation products /soild insolubles combined with moisture. If with the help of an oil purifier installed in byepass line we are able to remove solid insolubles upto 1 micron and moisture thoroughly,TBN and additives under control, can't we achieve this 2000 hours old oil which is of very high quality.
Tall Paul has very correctly told that some special purifier will be required for extending the oil drain period so much, but if the oil is kept clean right from the word Go, the workload on additives is reduced and their depletion is very little which can be made up with new oil charged for topping up,so no need to add any additive.Clinging of oil onto every part of engine is not because of oxidation products, these products will be continuously removed as insolubles.Yes, to counter this Cold Starting problem, Pre oiler system is installed in Marine engines, you are correct.

quote:

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Originally posted by Prabhakar Agrawal:
eAzYE
Perhaps you missed my first sentence "If all the parameters (of oil )are kept within allowable limits"

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Yes, I DID read this sentence, but this description is a bit too vage for me. Especially when you compare the Indian climate to the North-European climate...

Furthermore I'm a bit sceptic on this subject and do not believe any vehicle manufacturer will allow this for normal consumer use. Not without a good oil regulation (cleaning) system and safety systems, but I doubt these solutions are cheaper than using 'normal' oil for it's lifecycle.

No offense by the way, I'm just a critic trying to keep the discussion alive! I like to brainstorm on these matters.

So how would you solve the 'coldstart' when the temperature (normal winter temperature overhere) is -5 or -10 degrees?
I presume the use of a good filter is also unbearable. How do you change/clean this filter without draining? (just out of mechanical interest...)

Again, it's not my intention to undermine your subject, I'm just not a believer (yet...maybe you can convince me!) ;-)

@Prabhakar Agrawal

quote:

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I am talking about Cold starting of Engines in any season, even at 40 deg C when the engine is being restarted after 10 to 12 hours.Even at 40 deg C the viscosity of 15W40 oil will be around 115 cst, you yourself have admitted that it will take less than 2 secs to develop full pressure,

---

I stated that, and it is correct for a 5W-30 oil @ -20°C. If your engine is well designed

Besides kinematic viscosity, the pour point, crancing and pumping viscosity is very important. This is the reason for all of these data demanded in the SAE 300 Spec.

Besides that, there is a very new SAE Paper from 2004 where you can see that these viscoities may change dramatically with oxidized oil due to the impact of sheared viscosity modifiers. (I can give you the number if you want to.)

Engines may die due to oil starvation because of oil pumpability.

You can't eliminate water and NOX with a bypass filter in northern Europe from oil.

Some sludges (I know at least 4 different kinds) can not be eliminated with bypass filtration.

And eAzyY E is right, a simple oil change in a vehicle is cheaper then a complex by-pass filter additional additive system.

Dear All,
Prabhakr has initiated an interesting subject.As we all know every one is interested to reduce operating cost without taking chance on life of engine.In my openion some lube experts has to give the guideline of parameters and its limit of variation up to which one can use the engine oil without sweetining or drain.The additive life -how to consider in any Engine oil and compatibility of addition in used oil is also a question.
Suggest the practical way to optimise/maximise operation hrs. without drain of oil in high speed engine rather to change on every 300 hrs.

Im not sure that sludge/varnish would occur at a viscous stage unless the tbn additive had depleted anyway. Meaning it'd soon thicken up to grease within 50 hrs anyway. Is that correct?

I see your point however I've seen enough sludge killed engines to know this aint a good idea to restrict your engines bloodline...

Perhaps a residual ep additive such as moly (maybe not) or wynn's friction proofing would be a more appropriate tool for cold start protection. I know wynn's drove a car without engine oil in it for over 1500km's. Protected with a bottle of friction proofing... interesting...

Keep in mind people if you can keep oxidation from occuring you can run your oil much longer.

Oxidation brings on the carbon and varnish. Oil will degrade, but not nearly as fast if you keep it from oxidizing.

I advise many to use lube control in their oil to keep oxidation from occuring.

My .02

quote:

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Keep in mind people if you can keep oxidation from occuring you can run your oil much longer.
Oxidation brings on the carbon and varnish. Oil will degrade, but not nearly as fast if you keep it from oxidizing.

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This is a very good and very important point. But what do you mean with lube control? Add anti-oxidants to your engine?

Hi all,
Yes, extension of oil life indefinitely is possible only when there is one oil purifier installed on the engine.
oxidation of any oil is accelerated in the presence of metal particles and moisture and if they are being removed by some purifying equipment continuously, the rate of oxidation automatically reduces considerably. this purifier will remove the oxidation products also and in the absence of moisture and oxidation products, there will be almost no formation of varnish and sludge.
There is no need to add any additives, whatever additives will be lost , the fresh additives going with top-up oil will make it up.
So, again I emphasize that if such a purifier is installed on the engine ,the drain period of oil will be extended , rather no more change of oil will be required, such a purifier will not be costly and will be economically viable.Then the benefits of old oil will give longer life to engines.
But even if such a purifier is available, the main resistance comes from oil companies and engine manufacturers in extension of oil life, they don't allow any extension, they will never specify which parameters should be checked to allow or disallow such extension. They will say in one word "No Extension , as there may be some unknown factors which will spoil the oil after longer use, preventing extended life"
So I again appeal to all the expert visitors to this site to specify which parameters are to be checked to declare whether some oil is fit for further use or not ,irrespective of whether oil is 400 hrs old or 4000 hors old. Just send the 4000 hrs old oil to some lab and mention the working hours, they will recommend to change the oil even if they get all the known parameters within allowable limits.Pity.
One more request: on this board we should restrict our discussion on "Whether 2000 hours old oil is better than 200 hrs old oil". That will encourage some more lively and fruitful discussion

Hi Phabhakar Agrawal,
I have economical question. What cost such oil purifer and what its change interval?
Thanks,

Dear Mikhail,
Commercially also this Purifier is viable.One time cost will be USD 500 or less for a sump containing 30 litres of oil, recurring expenditure will be cost of one replaceable filter USD 25 after every 300 working hours.
If you take into account the extension of Engine-life, the economic advantage is tremendous

There are a couple (2) of Dodge 5.9L diesel (2001, 2002) owners on the TurboDieselRegistry.com site that are trying to figuer out exactely how to do this very thing.

So far one member (2001) has an oil bypass filter (Frantz, toilet paper no less, but somewhat modified from orgional) that filters all visable soot levels and he changes the bypass filter every 2000 miles and adds about 1 quart of synthetic (Mobile 1) makeup oil. I think he totally reloads the oil every 12k (1 / yr). He has done oil analysis and has those reports over a fairly long time to prove the viability of his system.

I am starting a test of a RACOR LFS-802 bypass filter (filters to 1 micron). I just changed to Mobile 1 (SUV & Truck) with this oil change. I have sent a virgin sample in for analysis to baseline. Then I plan to test at 1k, 2.5k, then compare to dictate other intervals. There is a possibility of a 1 quart refresh every 2.5k?? to see what happens to metals, TBN, FTIR. What happens with refresh oil to keep the oil within some boundry analysis.

From what I can determine the cost tradeoff of complete reload at 5k and refresh at ?? is a wash partially because of the testing cost.

The intent is to see if I can maintain the oil within a very useable operating band operationally. Without excessive product cost, testing cost, labor cost (mine )

I really enjoy this forum and like the discussions tremendously. Please comment on our "test" pro or con as both viewpoints are valuable information.

Bob Weis

The toilet paper filters are ver good, but they have a small initial contact area and a lot of depth. When the initial contact area gets plugged up it does not matter how much depth is left, you must then change your filter, and add the make-up oil. The amount of make-up oil required can be very expensive because these filters have to be changed often.

You might want to try a filter that has a lot more initial contact area and enough depth to do the job. This kind of filter can be changed much less often, saving on the cost of make-up oil and the down time and labor to do the filter change. Such a filter is the Oil Guard. The Oil Guard company dosen't have a big marketing machine behind them and you may not have ever heard of them. It's a small company in Oceanside, California owned and run by a father and his son with just a few employees. They have the right idea, it's just that no one is hearing the message. By the way I don't work for them, I have just tested their filter and it works well, exactly as advertised, and requires less changes and is well made. There is no toilet paper to trim, you just change the element. And less oil is lost on each change, an important consideration if you do this to a lot of vehicles. The difference in oil lost will pay for the system, which is no more expensive to purchase.

So far I have 2000 miles on a RACOR LFS-802 bypass filter. My vehicle is a 12 quart sump. The RACOR LFS-802 is rated for a 60 quart sump.

The RACOR LFS-802 filters down to 1 micron. In ISO 4406 testing with bypass filtered oil contaminated to 22/17/16 in 1 pass down to 17/15/8 and in 2 passes down to 15/8/6. The filter also has a 100cc water capacity. In over a 1,000 day period I average 50 miles a day. Enough distance to warm the oil and I think help reduce water and the resultant byproducts of water contamination.

The stated literature is 1 pass 92% of >/= 2um, 2 passes 99% >/= 2um (>/= is greater than or equal to).

I have not done an oil analysis yet, but will at 5000 miles when I plan on changing the OEM full flow filter.

As a first test series I am removing 1 quart of sump oil every 1000 miles and replacing it with virgin oil. I am using Mobil 1 SUV&Truck 5W-40 Synthetic (a pao base oil).

In this first test I am not as concerned with cost as I am concerned with consistent quality of oil chemical makeup over a long period of time and lack of oil oxidation and maintaining the TBN and the additive packages.

So far the only indications I have is the oil dip stick film of oil is not totally purely clean, but only has a very slight tint of soot. The quart I removed at 2000 miles was very lightly sooted. I think the oil analysis lab will have no trouble doing a particle count at 5000 miles. We were a little concerned with particle counting as "normal" diesel oil is too dark to particle count.

Bottom Line,

I think with modification of oil management a diesel oil should be able to extend to some indefinite time.

I think the cost analysis tradeoff is primarily reducing downtime and extending capital investment life. I have read several papers on extending oil intervals strickly for fluid cost control is not cost effective.

I am primarily interested in reducing downtime and extending capital investment life.

Bob Weis

I did a little research and there are 2 continuous engine oil management systems. One is OilMate by EMP (Engineered Machined Products) and the other is CENTINEL by Cummins Engines. Both basically take a small amount of oil from th eengine system, dump that into the fuel tank, and replenish the amount taken from an onboard virgin oil tank. I found them with Google using "Engine Oil Management".

Couple that to an efficient bypass filter system to filter small um particles and it seems like an extended oil system might be applicable.

Is this what you were thinking?

Bob Weis

Dear Bob Weis,
I am not searching for any Oil Purifier which will help in achieving the slogan " No more change of oil", but i wanted widespread discussion on the topic " 2000hours old oil is better than 200 hours old oil in diesel engines if all the parameters are within allowable limits"
I gave the reasons and wanted the opinion of experts with open mind. First we should agree that the above statement is correct, then we will search for a purifier which will help in achieving the extension of oil life to 2000 hours and beyond

"If all the parameters are within allowable limits" and the parameters are the same for the 200 hr oil as the 2000 hr oil, what degree of "better"? Both oils are within the same set of parameters.

i have recently purchase amsoil series 2000 0w-30. amsoil claims that I only need to change the oil 1year or every 35k miles. i also bought there amsoil filter which is rank among the best. I change my filter every 12k.
I am pretty confident this is the best thing to do however rediculous it may sound.

quote:

Originally posted by RWeis:
"If all the parameters are within allowable limits" and the parameters are the same for the 200 hr oil as the 2000 hr oil, what degree of "better"? Both oils are within the same set of parameters.

Dear RWeis,
New oil has almost equal population of weak and strong molecules, weaker molecules have tendency to get oxidised faster. As the temperature of engine oil is very high ,more than 80 degree Centigrade, oxidation cannot be avoided, oxidation products either go out with the exhaust gases or are mixed in sump oil and are filtered out. Oxidation reduces the quantity of oil in sump, thats why topping up is required regularly for making up the required level.So when the oil has become older it has less weak molecules than the strong molecules. It means 2000 hours old oil has more stronger molecules than weaker molecules proportionately, giving two advantages as follows:

Stronger molecules will give stronger oil film for lubrication giving lot of advantages like better lubrication and more engine efficiency.

Stronger molecules have better adhesive power and such oil will stick to every moving or mating surface for longer time, say 72 hours roughly. When you shut down your engine and start it again after some 8 hours or more, the new oil will come down to sump from every nook and corner and when you start the engine again, all the parts start moving dry as oil takes some seconds in reaching those places.This type of cold staring causes maximum damge to engines. When oil is 2000 hours old, it sticks to every mating surface for longer time and when you start the engine again, oil is there everywhere and no part is moving dry.Hence less damage during cold starting.

You cannot achieve this objective without some sort of special oil purifier installed on the engine which removes solid particles upto 1 micron ,removes moisture, unburnt fuel, other liquid and gaseous contaminants from the oil regularly.

2000 hours old means at least 80,000 Km run oil in mobile equipments like trucks or buses,oil will be still better if it is older than 2000 hours old.

quote:

Originally posted by Prabhakar Agrawal:
[QUOTE]New oil has almost equal population of weak and strong molecules,...

Are you talking about conventional oil here? I would think that synthetic, in the production process would already have gotten past this point and be made only of "strong molecules." If not, then what oil company is making a "strong molecule" only oil? If none, I wonder why this type oil is not being produced.

Esters provide this polar ability

http://www.silkoleneoil.com/techtip8.htm
the dry surface should have an oil film and aw additives pre new oil delivery. How are the aw additives replaced in this old oil?

Tall Paul,

I am talking of normal conventional oil only, if it is put into the sump of an engine and run for a longer duration it becomes better and better when all the parameters are kept within allowable limits.It becomes better as the population of stronger molecules go on increasing in comparison to weaker ones. Now the question arises if this oil reduces the damage to engines during cold starting and gives oil film of better strength, why such oil is not produced by the oil companies and supplied to users first hand.

First thing , the oil companies can produce such oil , but the processing will be very-very costly and uneconomical.For example if you ask some oil company to give you oil of exact 68 viscosity or any other viscosity they may charge you a price many times more.Secondly, the drain out period will not increase unless some purifier is used.Oil companies are producing such special oil for racing cars where the requirement is critical and are selling at very high prices.

MGVB8,
sorry i cannot understand what you want to tell.If you are concerned with additives, they are not a problem here. If you go through my all the posts under this topic you will get the answer. Or, you write your doubt more clearly, i will try to clarify.What do you mean by "aw additives pre new oil delivery" ?

The AW additives left by the oil after shutdown don't leave the surfaces even though some oil film may drip off. This ensures at least boundary lubrication until a thicker oil film is established immediately after startup.


Synthetic Esters are highly polar with greater film strength but with a lot more benefits than highly polar mineral such as greater flowabilty at start up and less thinning at high temp.

A thick less drain off oil may help with corrosion.

quote:

Originally posted by Prabhakar Agrawal:
Tall Paul,

I am talking of normal conventional oil only, if it is put into the sump of an engine and run for a longer duration it becomes better and better when all the parameters are kept within allowable limits.It becomes better as the population of stronger molecules go on increasing in comparison to weaker ones. Now the question arises if this oil reduces the damage to engines during cold starting and gives oil film of better strength, why such oil is not produced by the oil companies and supplied to users first hand.

Well, I would like to know how this special oil the oil companies are producing for special racing cars, but would be too costly for the general consumer, differs from synthetics that are on the market now. Surely an ester based oil like Redline can compete with these "special" oils, and maybe a PAO like Mobil 1 can also. What am I missing? The synthetics are engineered for exacting molecular structures with very tight size distribution already and so should provide most of the desired benefits.

TallPaul,
You are missing one point, whatsoever oil you take, you will have to change it after certain period of time.If you take redline or any other oil, still such oils have limited life.

If you take normal and common engine oil 15W40 with TBN around 12, run in the engine for 2000 hours, with some device which removes solid contaminants upto 1 micron, removes water, unburnt fuel and other liquid contaminants and also the gaseous contaminants, you are certainly going to get very good oil in the engine itself. You have not drained oil after stipulated periods, you have saved many changes, you have not created any environmental problem due to disposal of dirty engine oil, still you are getting oil in the engine itself which is capable of reducing its wear and tear to enhance its life tremendously.
Here the point of discussion was
"If with some device we can extend the oil life to more than 2000 hours, the quality of oil is better than that after 200 hours or not"

quote:

Originally posted by Prabhakar Agrawal:
Extended oil life reduces damage to Engines during cold starting:

When the oil is new , it has both weak and strong molecules, the more the oil is used, the more these weaker molecules get oxidised. When the oil becomes very old, the proportion of strong molecules becomes almost 80% and more and the adhesive power of oil increases, the strength of oil film oil increases. Thats why when the oil is older more than normal drain out period, i.e.2000 hours old, it sticks to every nook and corner of the engine for more than 72 hours. So at the time of cold starting, oil is present everywhere and damage to engine is least .
Thats why 2000 hours old oil is better than 200 hours old oil. If you want to enhance the life of engine, extend the drain out period of engine oil to the extent of NO MORE CHANGE OF OIL, yes, but with some device you have to keep all the parameters of oil within allowable limits.

Fantastic theories of oxidation and purification looks some kind of refining technology out here.

Normally hydrotreating is done at high temperatures and pressure but here it is inferred that weak molecules are removed after oxidation ,then the existing structure would become unsaturated and would break down faster[ oxidation]. Hope you get the point.

Naturally as the oil thickens with resin and lacquer it would stick to the nook and corners of the engine.

My two cents worth,hope it helps.

Zavier,
Simply one question. How many hours an engine may be run without changing oil? If i say that 116 high speed engines Cummins NT-855 (Fitted with special oil purification system)have been run without changing oil at one place for more than 6000 hours, what will be your reaction? If i add that the average life of all these engines has been enhanced from 15000 hours to 30,000 hours what will you say? Just go to Loco and Loco Crane Deptt of Tata Steel , Jamshedpur and see yourself.This fantastic result has been achieved there because the officers are bold and they took bold decision.

This topic is still being talked about? Wow I have not been here in sometime. I posted about 1 year ago so sorry for the late answer to Callisa.

Lube Control (or LC20) is a superior antioxidant and also turns carbon and varnish into a collodial lubricant....quite and interesting product.

There website is http://www.lubecontrol.com and last I heard (which was many months back) they were in talks with buyers in Eurpoe to possibly get it over there.

Very popular product over on http://www.bobistheoilguy.com

quote:

Originally posted by JonnyB:
Lube Control (or LC20) is a superior antioxidant and also turns carbon and varnish into a collodial lubricant....quite and interesting product.

Well if that is true then it is going to clean your engine similarly to the way AutoRx is supposed to clean your engine.

TallPaul,

Yes and no. AutoRX is a good product, but quite expensive. Using LC from the beginning there will be no need for AutoRX.