3000 Mile/3 Month Myth?

For the most part it's a good way to sell more oil as long as everyone is saying it and there is momentum not to change. I am in a market where they are accostomed to a 1800 mile oil change. But for the quality of the oil that has 50% of the market (for price and tradition), at 1800 miles it has lost viscosity and has about 30 % of the additives that an oil like Delo has at 12,000 miles in the same vehicle.
I recommend 6,000 to 7,000 Km (about 4,000 miles)and use that for my personal and delivery vehicles. With 95% of the roads here being dirt, I don't like to go more than that without getting it out, and and oil change is cheap insurance. I have people using 10,000 km intervals in the same routes and same types of vehicles with Chevron Delo or Chevron Supreme SYNTHETIC with outstanding results on vehicles that only come into the city every 10,000 km to be serviced and go back out. They don't extend beyond that for fear of a gasket or filter weakiening or injector leaking, causing too much wear before being found.

My question was to ascertain if there were a technical basis for a 3000-mile/3 month oil interval. You were right in that it appears to sell oil and oil changing. So I personally called Ford, Chevy, and Dodge dealers, and each of them told me the proper oil change interval was 3000-miles. Believing that there was no technical basis, I looked at the owner’s manuals for one of their 3/4 –ton trucks. The numbers amazed me! On one of the Ford trucks the owners manual stated that the oil could be changed every 6000-miles! The Dodge manual suggested a change every 7500-miles, or every 6-months! The 3000-mile/3 month oil change interval is an ancient myth, one that is not applicable to vehicles today. Changing the oil every 3000 miles is a waste of oil. The world only has a limited supply of oil, and it is our job to see that we conserve it. I am still looking for more technical justification to validate this theory. Please reply if you have information.

at one time i used a Chevy 1500 made in '94.the work i did had a turn around of 3,000 miles occuring every 6 weeks.due to the fact it was mostly used off road in work applications i had the oil changed at the 3,000 mile mark.unfortunately the truck succombed to a head on collision at 347,500 miles.and just to think it never had a tune up or rebuild.

I do know at one point car manufacturers were trying out an onboard oil analysis chip that will signal the operator when to change the oil. This was i believe in A back issuee of POA magazine. I have not seen this chip yet and can only tell you from my experience there is no data availabel I have asked as you did and no straight answer. Was always told to refer to my owners manual. I am lucky to have a job were I sample 1000 vehicles a month and can see it first hand.
It all comes down to the operator and type of driving,of course severe stop and go is harder on oil than highway driving, dirt roads are terrible rather than paved highway in the city. My rule of thumb is somewhere between 4 and 6000 miles and youll never go wrong. I have 250 k on a V8 from Dodge and change the oil as I stated and analysis show everything is good. Again it is the road,driver,enviroment all plays a role in the oils condition. It is impossible to have data to simulate driving conditions everywhere. So I figure someone came up with a 3000 change to try to accomodate every senerio. And sell more oil and filters.
Although if i was in the country driving dirt roads every day I would probably change oil and air filter every 2 to 3000 miles for sure.

But what if u don't drive much/but still use synthetic?

I drive a 2002 Grand Prix, but only about 330 miles/months. I just noticed that it's been 27 months since chnging the oil/filter (10,00 miles, overall)...but i used SYNTHETIC the last time!!!. Am I going to be ok (doesn't look too bad)???, or should i expect problems . Most questions DON'T address low - miliage drivers like me.

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... The 3000-mile/3 month oil change interval is an ancient myth, one that is not applicable to vehicles today.

You're completely right: it is 50 years ancient myth! How it would be possible that science advances in all areas except in chemistry, oil production particularly? Is there any particular reason for oil making being petrified for whole 50 years? Simply, those facts doesn't go together!

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Changing the oil every 3000 miles is a waste of oil. The world only has a limited supply of oil, and it is our job to see that we conserve it.

That really is our duty! We, definitely, are not the last living generation; so, we should behave as we just borrowed our world from our ancestors and keep it for a while for our successors. Because of that our duty is to keep it as much as possible improved or unchanged at least.

If you are looking for technical justification there are some facts.
- For 35 years in a row Amsoil is successfully promoting extended oil drains.
- All other oil manufacturers make synthetic lubricants today and some of them recommend extended drains. Recommendations, for sure, are based on scientific facts and test results.
- GM vehicles (some of!) have oil condition sensor based not only on time and mileage. Pretty smart ones register temperature, driving conditions, overall cleanliness… and are extending drain intervals a lot. For instance, Amsoil XL oil, recommended for 7.500 miles, usually is up for change at 11.000 to 12.000 miles.
- Whole Europe is stupid enough (by North American qualifiers) to use synthetic oils and extended oil drains (cars ~15.000 kms, trucks ~100.000 kms,)
- Even older Japanese vehicles (Honda) recommend 7500 mi oil drain. (Stupid enough too?)
- The best technical justification, based on science - not on suppositions and guessing, is used oil analysis (UOA)! This method will, undoubtedly, show suitability of any oil for extended drains.

Hmmm. Well, before calling each other stupid, it's probably more wise to study the facts in front:

Maximum drain intervals at Passenger cars VAG and GM reaches upto 50000 km. That's 3x the mentioned 15000.
Besides this, all OEM's recommend also a 'normal' usage interval, so it's absolutely untrue that you must use a synthetic or extended drain oil.

Also comparing techniques of US build engines with EU build engines is a bit shortsighted. As the techniques and tolerances differ on many levels, it's not suprising that the quality levels and drain intervals also differ.

Instead of trying to get 3000 more miles out of any oil, it's probably better when Mr. Bush signs the Kyoto pact to keep the world healthy for our children?

Sorry, but I have to ask:
Mentioning that ALL other oil companies are making the wrong choices? Who much is Amsoil paying you for this advertisement?

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Originally posted by .:[EM]:.:
Hmmm. Well, before calling each other stupid, it's probably more wise to study the facts in front...

Of course! No need for calling (anyone) stupid! We are here for knowledge and experience exchange not for empty discussions. In regard of that could you consider next my answer.

The VW New Beetle manual states that the oil should be changed at 5000 miles, then at every 10000 miles! 3000 miles - not even mentioned!
Next: The '96 Passat Owners Manual, P.N. 962.551.3A0.21 7/95, on page 128 CLEARLY emphasizes the FIRST OIL CHANGE MUST BE PERFORMED AFTER 7,500 miles! Moreover, in Germany and the rest of the World the oil maintenance drain interval is INCREASED from 15,000 KM, (9,300 miles) to 20,000 KM, (12,400 miles). For sure is that they didn’t determine these intervals to be a safe over a cup of coffee or while having a lunch. Very demanding tests determined it!
Since that I am from Europe (and still have close ties with friends and relatives) please allow me that I know a little bit more than average N.American about what is going over there. Would you be surprised if I tell you that I began to use synthetic motor oils in mid 70-ies using oil with 10.000 km change recommendation? If things weren’t improved for past 30 years it would be possible to extend oil drain to that limit at least!
You fiercely fight for 3000 miles oil change (I will not be so rude to ask you how much are you paid by someone for that) continuously overseeing oil analysis method. My questions are: Are your assumptions about 3000, 4000, 1000 or even 10.000 miles oil drain more precise than exact result of oil analysis measured in parts per million? Could you explain me how do you know is there any ongoing process in your engine without oil analysis?

Let’s go in North America now.
“Ford has been studying the question of when to suggest modified oil change recommendations, and they've hit upon 7,500 miles for 2007 and newer cars” Notice when, not if!
GM's (newer) cars monitors multiple things like: run time, engine temp, air temp, miles, throttle position, average length of trips… in spite of determining oil life. Believe it or not reality is that my friend’s Pontiac signaled him to change oil (Amsoil XL) @ 11.700 miles!
Honda sticker in engine compartment (of cars made at 90-ies) tells owners to change oil @ 7.500 miles without emphasizing that it needs to be synthetic oil!

Regarding “techniques of US built engines” please do not tell to one (experienced) mechanical engineer that engines for US are completely different than EU built engines! That practice would be so “cost effective” as well as making different oil formulations, processes and related equipments for Europe, US an Asia for instance. After making a design first thing for any mechanical engineer is to make standardization and optimization and making different designs is not part of it!

Regarding ALL other companies I can show you news about Mobil 1 motor oils for 5.000, 7.500 and “up to 15.000 miles”! If Amsoil is wrong explain me why Mobil is making same mistake? Are you going to be surprised with fact that "Stevens Transportation" (Dallas, TX) is having one million bucks per year in savings just because of extending oil drains to 200.000 miles currently? Do you think that they easily play with their fleet maintenace?

I have more questions for you. If you still have barriers to accept extended oil drain intervals as reality why Amsoil’s brilliant past of doing family funded business without huge advertising campaigns for 35 years in a row can not at least open your mind for a little bit? Or you still think that Amsoil is making warranties and recommendations over a cup of coffee?

Nice reply, but your not the only well educated and experienced engineer on this forum ;-) (no offense!)

Anyway, I do not understand why you mention an 11 year old VW Passat? This type is quiet old in relation to the extended drain specs of VAG nowadays and not really a good example to discuss long drains at VAG! If you like, I can send you an overview of the latest specs.

Furthermore, as an engineer you also should know that the 'first change' interval of an engine can be shorter than normal interval for various reasons which do not have a real relation with long drain.

And NO...I do not FIERCLY fight the interval, but I do not like reading pre-biassed or incorrect/old technical information here. For your information, I work for a company which is world's leading OEM data provider/publisher if it comes to oil recommendation data. I work with practically every oilcompany, know their products and have no professional preference for any of them! You will not see me giving a single brand advice here!
As I work with all these different companies, I do have quiet a good view on the whole extended drain philosphy and different approaches to this matter. For Trucks it's also interesting to see OEM's deal with the EURO V norms.

I disagree on your opinion on engine builds. Why do you think there are API (US), ACEA (EU) and JASO (JAP) specs? Is that because of the standardization you think?

I know that you're a synthetic and Amsoil lover, I fully understand that (I also prefer syns for my engine!), but I always try to get to the point without mentioning a brand, unless specifically asked for. So sorry if I my advertisement question offended you.

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…you are not the only well educated and experienced engineer on this forum ;-) (no offense!)

Haven’t even thought about it! If it were like that this place would be real heath! I try to keep myself open for new ideas all the time and that is reason why I am here.

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… the 'first change' interval of an engine can be shorter than normal interval for various reasons which do not have a real relation with long drain.

If ‘the first one’ is shorter all the subsequent (normal) ones are longer, isn’t it? Therefore, where is my mistake?

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… I work for a company which is world's leading OEM data provider/publisher if it comes to oil recommendation data. I work with practically every oil company, know their products and have no professional preference for any of them!

It’s nice to know it! So, if any of forum members need some particular info we could ask you where to find it?

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…You will not see me giving a single brand advice here!

I do not prefer giving single brand advice, too! As mech.eng. I vote for synthetics and extended drains! It is not based on my personal affinities. That my orientation is founded on technical basis – techdata, test results, UAO results, my personal tests, my and experince of others… Since that great part of prospect synthetic users like to know which of available products is the best, I am telling them who appears being the best based on all available resources. That is why I am mentioning particular brand. On the other hand, in some situations I can’t avoid stating a fact that Amsoil is North American pioneer and leader in synthetics field.

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For Trucks it's also interesting to see OEM's deal with the EURO V norms.

I do not give too much about OEM recommendations, really. Personally, I know for tens of examples that extending drain intervals, based on UAO – work. Globally, there are thousands of them. OEMs know very well how to take money from customers and that is their main objective. They made that as habitual thing through all these years. Not customer and reliability are in their sight! Only money! That is why I am stubbornly for UAO! It tells everything about current (oil & engine) condition and greatly helps to promote preventive maintenance.

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I disagree on your opinion on engine builds. Why do you think there are API (US), ACEA (EU) and JASO (JAP) specs? Is that because of the standardization you think?

It’s obvious that we disagree about this part. Evident are slight, not so important differences, for sure; but what would be your explanation about existence of Italian, Dutch, French… Serbian… and hundreds of other standards “telling” the same (or very similar) thing which is already stated in some ISO, ANSI… So I prefer to consider that matter just as standardization with different spices. These spices are simple result of evolution in automotive world in different part of our world.

If everything was as (majority of) car and truck OEM recommend how it would be possible to happen examples of extending drains up to 200.000 miles without traces of harmful effects on engines? Who is right then – QEM or enthusiastic users? Here goes thing what I can not understand: why you, broadly educated, keep yours eyes closed for other approaches? Doing my job, because of money and war circumstances, I was forced to modify, change and even completely forget OEM recommendations. And, it never failed! That determined my orientation toward empiric approach rather than clerical.

BTW There was no any kind of offense in your post. We, actually, have to have a little bit "sharper" language trying to "pull out" answer from "other part". You agree?

Oil should be change not based on the running hours the engine had run but based upon the number of contaminants present in the oil, and if we do have the tools these contaminants can be extracted from the oil. Golden rule is if the oil can be maintained clean then there is no reason to change it in the first place as most OEM would recommend.

I got some articles on lubrication strategy in my website heres the link should you be interested:

www.rsareliability.com


Rolly Angeles

Mr Smiley simply wanted to know the technical basis of recommendation to change oil after 3 months or 3000 miles or even more.

We have done everything except giving him a straight forward reply.Lot of talking and talking, but no answer to his query.

Ask the O.E.M. or oil companies what are the technical parameters which will decide whether the oil is good to be used in engine or bad to be rejected, we may ask this question after 1000 miles or may be 20,000 miles.They should have some technical basis which they must disclose.

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Originally posted by Prabhakar Agrawal:
Mr Smiley simply wanted to know the technical basis of recommendation to change oil after 3 months or 3000 miles or even more.

We have done everything except giving him a straight forward reply.Lot of talking and talking, but no answer to his query.

My answer is – used oil analysis results will tell everything. Consultations with oil manufacturers could be helpful but are not of ultimate importance. For sure is that local labs are familiar with local oils; therefore, oil formulation differences are already incorporated in results and recommendations.

Mr Djordan,
Rules of a game are decided before the game starts.In the same way, Oil companies should also declare what are the parameters which will decide whether one oil is fit for for use or not and what are the upper and lower allowable limits for theses parameters.I would like to send the oil samples to their labs only after knowing these parameters.
These oil companies have their own interest, they would never like the extension of oil change period.Same is the case with O.E.Ms, they are hand in gloves with oil companies, for them the interest of oil companies is top priority.
Till now no body has clearly come out with these parameters.why are people avoiding to come out with clear answer, is it ignorance or some self interest in not disclosing.

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Originally posted by Prabhakar Agrawal:
Mr Djordan,
Rules of a game are decided before the game starts.In the same way, Oil companies should also declare what are the parameters which will decide whether one oil is fit for for use or not and what are the upper and lower allowable limits for theses parameters.I would like to send the oil samples to their labs only after knowing these parameters.
These oil companies have their own interest, they would never like the extension of oil change period.Same is the case with O.E.Ms, they are hand in gloves with oil companies, for them the interest of oil companies is top priority.
Till now no body has clearly come out with these parameters.why are people avoiding to come out with clear answer, is it ignorance or some self interest in not disclosing.

It is getting really old to read your repeated outcries and complaints, and indiscriminately dishing out unreasonable blame to oil companies and OEMs for not providing you with guidance and blanket parameters for evaluating serviceability of motor oil, and manufacturers of testing equipment for not offering instrumentation for your budget.
Nobody in their right mind would even make such demands when there are hundreds of different types of engines that use same oil, and at least hundred factors that could influence longevity of lubricants in engines, which oil companies and OEMs are not in position to control. However, they gave us a drain interval (mileage) as a guide. That is enough for me. And if I would want to extend that interval, I would do my homework by testing oil and on that basis set the parameters. Of course, that would only work for me, and others with same equipment and same or similar driving conditions. I wish you would point out and share with this board YOUR achievements in establishing such parameters rather that spewing venom and blame left and right.

I drive a 2001 Ford pickup (5.4 L engine with tow package) and the owners manual has an oil change interval of 5000 miles. Many of the new (2007) automobiles are recommending 7500 mile oil change intervals. Oil changers, including dealers are the ones currently advocating 3000 mile changes.

Ken Culverson

quote:

Originally posted by Prabhakar Agrawal:
Mr Djordan,
Rules of a game are decided before the game starts.In the same way, Oil companies should also declare what are the parameters which will decide whether one oil is fit for for use or not and what are the upper and lower allowable limits for theses parameters.I would like to send the oil samples to their labs only after knowing these parameters.
These oil companies have their own interest, they would never like the extension of oil change period.Same is the case with O.E.Ms, they are hand in gloves with oil companies, for them the interest of oil companies is top priority.
Till now no body has clearly come out with these parameters.why are people avoiding to come out with clear answer, is it ignorance or some self interest in not disclosing.

Wow there. There are quite a few lubrication manufacturers that recommend extended drain intervals. TRC's standpoint on extended drain intervals is you use the companies UOA program free of charge and change your oil when the lab tells you that you need to.

No two vehicles or pieces of equipment are exactly the same and neither are their operating conditions. The best way to get the maximum life out of your equipment and your oil is to use UOA's.

As far as equipment and vehicle manufacturers go they have to assume that the owner is going to use the lowest quality oil that still meets spec. and they base the service interval on that. They have no idea what you may use to service your equipment and if you are using low quality or high quality lubricants. The factory scheduled service intervals are just suggestions/guidelines.

Mr Michail,
There may be more than 1000 types of engines running in different environments driven by drivers having different driving habits, but the parameters of oil are common, allowable limits of these parameters should be common.
When you are deciding the drain interval of one engine, what will be your basis, what parameters of oil you will consider, that is a simple question which has not been answered by anybody.
When an engine manufacturer has to decide what drain interval is to be suggested to customers for a particular grade and brand of oil, what is the basis, do they run the engine on trial for longer periods to check when the oil deteriorates. What is the basis which they follow to say that oil is deteriorated and it cannot be used further.

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what parameters

If the rejection limits of oil (engine oil ) is the question :

TBN (TOTAL BASE NUMBER) can be one of the factors that can determine what to do with the oil.

When TAN = TBN do not think just change you oil (practically will never happen) Viscosity will jump many folds before this happens.

Sulphur in fuel is a factor what an oil company keeps in minds while adding base additives , and so does engine makers.

viscosity , fash point , etc etc. can also be considered for accepting or rejecting oil

(MY LIMITED KNOWLEDGE) (YOU GUYS THERE ARE OLD HATS AT TRIBOLOGY)

I do 6000km or 6 months with Delo 400 on all my vehicles, my engine internals are quite clean, I have no consumption issues even on my high mileage vehicles, would be a pity to throw away oils like Delvac or Delo down the drain at 3000km.

I attended a lubrication seminar in the past where a guest speaker discussed this subject. The basics of his speech were that the oil was tested at pre-determined intervals, mostly every 3-3500 miles to start with and then 5000 mile intervals after the first three analysis. The FILTER was changed around every 5000 miles. After running the same oil in the vehicle for 25,000 miles, the owner got nervous and had the oil changed. The test results did not indicate the oil needed to be changed. The vehicle was one of a vehicle in the owners fleet, subject to both on road and off road conditions. My question is this, why do we set different standards for industrial equipment and vehicles? If I have a piece of equipment that uses a hydraulic oil, I will change the filters on some frequency and have the oil tested on some frequency. The engines in our vehicles are not asked to operate in harsher conditions than we ask our industrial equipment. Instead of changing the oil more often, why not have your oil tested? At a predetermined parameter, decided by testing, the oil or filter would be changed. This would keep us from changing, and wasting, oil. Any thoughts on that?

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Originally posted by Mr. Smiley:
My question was to ascertain if there were a technical basis for a 3000-mile/3 month oil interval. You were right in that it appears to sell oil and oil changing. So I personally called Ford, Chevy, and Dodge dealers, and each of them told me the proper oil change interval was 3000-miles. Believing that there was no technical basis, I looked at the owner’s manuals for one of their 3/4 –ton trucks. The numbers amazed me! On one of the Ford trucks the owners manual stated that the oil could be changed every 6000-miles! The Dodge manual suggested a change every 7500-miles, or every 6-months! The 3000-mile/3 month oil change interval is an ancient myth, one that is not applicable to vehicles today. Changing the oil every 3000 miles is a waste of oil. The world only has a limited supply of oil, and it is our job to see that we conserve it. I am still looking for more technical justification to validate this theory. Please reply if you have information.

Back to the orinal question, someone touched on this.

3,000 miles is the dealers number.

What does the owners manual require?

I received a coupon book for oil changes with my 2006 Dodge Ram Hemi. Dodge printed the coupons for every 6,000 miles. My owner smanual says 7,500, I think.

Dealer puts a sticker in the window reminding me to come back in 3,000 miles.

Go by the owners manula if you have a warranty. After that, go for a longer interval.