Does Castrol really need to cheat with name Syntec?
Original Post
Read our primer articles on High Mileage Oil, Synthetic Oil and Kinematic Viscosity
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A lot of companies doing it. Need a standardization of definitions.
Hey, I hear Esso XD-3 is supposed to be excellent motor oil.
Hey, I hear Esso XD-3 is supposed to be excellent motor oil.
A lot? Who else? Castrol could only lose customers with things like that (me, for instance). I really do not like to be considered as stupid wallet.
By the Esso sources XD=3 is excellent oil. But - synthetic or petroleum? I couldn't find a clue.
By the Esso sources XD=3 is excellent oil. But - synthetic or petroleum? I couldn't find a clue.
Well, I am not averse to using Group III oil and probably do with Valvoline Synpower and Maxlife Synthetic. Castrol though was the culprit (as I understand it) it pushing to get Group III so it could be called Synthetic. In many ways Group III is nearly as good as PAO though, so it can be a very good oil (perhaps XD-3 is, but maybe with some true synthetic included, don't know). Mobil, I understand has been pretty honest to use true synthetics.
Despite much better characteristics of Group III oils (over conventional oils especially) they still are (natural) petroleum with all imperfections. Volatility, cold temperature, oxidation resistance, tendency to make a varnish & sludge, ..., longevity are their real "weak points". So, why bother (ourselves) with conventional oils at all? I've started with synthetics before twenty years and (really don't know why) switched to Castrol some time later (influence of advertising maybe). When discovered their game with customers (and rules) I switched to synthetics - forever. Honesty of Mobil could be disputable. Check this:"...The "small percentage" of petroleum oil
in bottle of synthetic (according to
Mobil) actually is 9.8% to 19.2%.
Many investors would be thrilled to get
such a "small percentage" return on
their money !!
Just for the record - the average
dividends for Mobil and Exxon over last
20 years have been in 2% to 4% range,
and they jointly term this as
"significant" return on Shareholders’
Equity in their Annual Reports...".
I am not telling that their oil is bad but what is point of "discovering" 15.000 mile drain interval while, for example, "Optima 2000" oil (from former Yugoslavia) before 20 years had drain recomendation of 20.000 kms?
in bottle of synthetic (according to
Mobil) actually is 9.8% to 19.2%.
Many investors would be thrilled to get
such a "small percentage" return on
their money !!
Just for the record - the average
dividends for Mobil and Exxon over last
20 years have been in 2% to 4% range,
and they jointly term this as
"significant" return on Shareholders’
Equity in their Annual Reports...".
I am not telling that their oil is bad but what is point of "discovering" 15.000 mile drain interval while, for example, "Optima 2000" oil (from former Yugoslavia) before 20 years had drain recomendation of 20.000 kms?
The problem with calling Syntec synthetic is that you should get what you pay for. The courts go one way, one time, than change. An example? Years ago GM started putting Chevy small block engines in Buick, Olds and Pontiac cars. Along came a lawyer that took GM to court over the practise. GM said the small block produced more power, used less gas and required fewer repairs. GM said they did this to save customers money and give them a better product (choke). The lawyer won and the judge said that if someone bought an Olds, for example, he should get an Olds engine and so on. Big settlement. Then GM marked all their documentation and window stickers with statements like 'GM engine' to keep them out of court. The judge wanted truth in advertising. The judge in Syntec vs Mobil 1 went the other way. The judges are what the lawyers make them. Get a better lawyer, get a better judgement.
No Barkerman, we don't NEED any more lawyers, just better judges WITHOUT a hidden agenda somewhere. But in today's society, where it's MINE MINE MINE and the @#$% with you, how are we supposed to get to the truth...at all.
Just an opinion from a "frustrated" consumer with big business.
Just an opinion from a "frustrated" consumer with big business.
Dad2leia, where do you think judges come from....lawyers. Courts are not about fair play, they are about winners and losers. When you buy Syntec and think you are getting synthetic oil, it's ok, because a courts said it's ok. Castrol is marketing to those that just don't know and there are more of them than there are people that are bothered by such things. If you are bothered, Castrol just wants you to go away. In reality, if Syntec just passes API or ACEA or other claimed requirements then they have done their job. If they ever find out they are making Syntec any better then required, they need to put a stop to it. Anything you hear about the performance of Syntec is advertising. Do you think that the corporate heads let a chemist write advertising copy. A chemist might explain in everyday terms how Syntec is made and works and that would really screw up an advertising campaign. Just let the advertising people keep making comercials and telling you how Syntec really works. If you don't like Syntec you could always buy some Penzoil or Quaker State and then add some of their Slick 50. The court said Slick 50 did not do what it claimed, but they could keep selling it, anyhow, just change the advertising. In the end, it's ok to screw the public, just get the court's permission to continue if you get caught.
Sounds like a full load of bull, but you're 100% right.
How I hate corporate America...
How I hate corporate America...
quote:
If you don't like Syntec you could always buy some Penzoil or Quaker State and then add some of their Slick 50. The court said Slick 50 did not do what it claimed, but they could keep selling it, anyhow, just change the advertising. In the end, it's ok to screw the public, just get the court's permission to continue if you get caught.
Have you seen that Quaker State now incorporates that Slick 50 into their packaged quarts if mineral oil ? Who's wearing the pants in the family there , Shell ?
Please note that 'Syntec' is only a product name and does not have to imply that it is synthetic. If you buy a cellphone which is called Tri-Star, it's not automatically triple band cellphone. If having a 'synthetic' is so important, you should read the label, instead of going for a fancy product name. And if people fall for only the name and feel cheated afterwards, then you're own lack of knowledge/interest is to blame.
And no, I do not work for Castrol or any related companies.
And no, I do not work for Castrol or any related companies.
quote:Originally posted by .:[EM]:.:
Please note that 'Syntec' is only a product name and does not have to imply that it is synthetic. If you buy a cellphone which is called Tri-Star, it's not automatically triple band cellphone. If having a 'synthetic' is so important, you should read the label, instead of going for a fancy product name. And if people fall for only the name and feel cheated afterwards, then you're own lack of knowledge/interest is to blame.
And no, I do not work for Castrol or any related companies.
Guessing you have not read the label on their bottles of 5w-20 Syntec ? It say's :
• SAE 5W-20: Castrol SYNTEC is the first major full synthetic oil brand to offer a 5W-20 that is....................
Point taken.
But still, I think it's not only Castrol who does this.
But still, I think it's not only Castrol who does this.
quote:Guessing you have not read the label on their bottles of 5w-20 Syntec ? It say's :
• SAE 5W-20: Castrol SYNTEC is the first major full synthetic oil brand to offer a 5W-20 that is....................
Regarding that there is one more proof. Created by Castrol!
How different than (purposely) mentioned cheating we can call next:
- at the page http://www.castrol.com/liveassets/bp_internet/castrol/c...q/pds_syntec_usa.pdf is written: SAE 5W-20: Castrol SYNTEC is the first major full synthetic oil brand…,
- while at the page http://bpelink.ohsworks.com//data/msds/00023/00023539000220003.pdf (CASTROL MATERIAL SAFETY DATA SHEET) is written: … Chemical Family/Classification: Synthetic hydrocarbon…
Is it really supposed that ordinary customer has to be Sherlock Holmes in all deals with Castrol?
Disregarding fact that term "full" technically means (almost) nothing, for all, other than Castrol, oil manufacturers that means: oil is made of PAO! Not hydrocracked petroleum oil !
Castrol makes a very good oil in the 5w-30 BMW High Performance Car synthetic .
It's great oil and just about the same price . Beats using that green Castrol IMO and it will outlast it a time again and does not thin down compared to the other Syntec's .
I'm not sure why others have not caught on to this oil when they need a 5w-30wt and cannot bring themselve's to use the Mobil EP or better yet , Synergyn . It's good stuff !
It's great oil and just about the same price . Beats using that green Castrol IMO and it will outlast it a time again and does not thin down compared to the other Syntec's .
I'm not sure why others have not caught on to this oil when they need a 5w-30wt and cannot bring themselve's to use the Mobil EP or better yet , Synergyn . It's good stuff !
I tun the BMW 5w30...Since it is the service fill for our BMW. Actually trying to figure out if it was a good oil sent me on the tangent of learning as much as I could about engine oils.
I will have to check to asee if it can be sou8rced econimcally for other applications.
I will have to check to asee if it can be sou8rced econimcally for other applications.
quote:Originally posted by Motorbike:
Castrol makes a very good oil in the 5w-30 BMW High Performance Car synthetic .
Trying not to be suspicious what would prove me synthetic origin of particular oil regarding Castrol's past and manipulation with customers?
Baring any existing hostilities towards brands how would a person care how an oil was marketed or labeled if it could take the 10-15k mile crankcase trip time after time for under 5 bucks per quart like the BMW oil can in many engines ?
As an aside , it's apparent Castrol might be using salicylate chemistry in some of their oils . This type chemistry has exhibited lower wear rates in low phosforus , low visosity oils vs SL levels of phos and using sulphonates . This chemistry also has shown better TBN retention in testing and actually out peformed sulphonate oils with a much higher starting TBN point.
I'm not certain Castrol is now , or ever was asleep at the wheel No affiliation
As an aside , it's apparent Castrol might be using salicylate chemistry in some of their oils . This type chemistry has exhibited lower wear rates in low phosforus , low visosity oils vs SL levels of phos and using sulphonates . This chemistry also has shown better TBN retention in testing and actually out peformed sulphonate oils with a much higher starting TBN point.
I'm not certain Castrol is now , or ever was asleep at the wheel
No affiliation
According to this site http://www.silkoleneoil.com/techtip4.htm , and Castrols MSDS, it is a synthietic oil. Did I read this wrong and synthetic hydrocarbons are not synthetic?
quote:Originally posted by Jason8691:
According to this site http://www.silkoleneoil.com/techtip4.htm , and Castrols MSDS, it is a synthietic oil. Did I read this wrong and synthetic hydrocarbons are not synthetic?
quote:but the waters have been muddied by a court case that took place in the USA a few years ago
Not a court case. More info HERE
quote:the PAOs act as solvents for the multigrade polymers and a large assortment of special compounds that act as dispersants, detergents, anti-wear and anti-oxidant agents, and foam suppressants.
It is my understanding that this is wrong. PAO has very little solvent ability and the esters or GRP I are used for additive solubility.
Two major things wrong with that page.
So the Silkolene oil company is wrong in their definition of what PAO is?
quote:Originally posted by Jason8691:
So the Silkolene oil company is wrong in their definition of what PAO is?
Not with what it is, but what it does. Everything that I have read (including posts by lube engineers) indicates that Grp III and IV oils have very poor solubility (and are non-polar). Esters usually have very good solubility and are polar.
They got the court case part wrong, why not something else?
True, but it still doesnt change the fact that synthetic hydrocarbons means that the oil really is synthetic.
Do you have a link to the MSDS that you are refering to? I'm not sure of the point you are trying to make.
http://safetydatasheets.bp.com/ussds/amersdsf.nsf/0/736...0023539000220003.pdf
http://safetydatasheets.bp.com/ussds/amersdsf.nsf/0/25D...0023537000220003.pdf
The top one is for the Syntec, the bottom is the Blend. The GTX, and High Mileage say the same as the Blend. My point is that everyone keeps saying the Syntec is GP III, when the MSDS says synthetic. Even on the other site Castrol is bashed for this, and according to the MSDS, everyone is wrong about it.
http://safetydatasheets.bp.com/ussds/amersdsf.nsf/0/25D...0023537000220003.pdf
The top one is for the Syntec, the bottom is the Blend. The GTX, and High Mileage say the same as the Blend. My point is that everyone keeps saying the Syntec is GP III, when the MSDS says synthetic. Even on the other site Castrol is bashed for this, and according to the MSDS, everyone is wrong about it.
Look up the CAS #s provided. The ones that start with 68 are GrpIV, the ones that start with 64 are petroleum based (GrpII or lower I would guess). The 92 is Grp III.
"may contain one or more of the following" is important wording.
"may contain one or more of the following" is important wording.
Really? This gives me a headache! Oh well, I guess if the small writing changes the definition then I stand corrected.
To anyone that is interested syntec is in fact a group III motor oil and has been since 1997. Prior to that they were a full Group IV pao which they purchased from mobil oil.
In 1999 mobil sued castrol for false advertising. I use the term sued even though it was not a legal court case as we know it, but rather was heard in front of the NAD. National advertising division. They determined that group III oils were refined enough to be advertised as synthetic. The rest is history.
That said, it is important to point out that the German made castrol syntec is full PAO. This is because german laws do not recognize group III as true synthetics. This is the oil that comes in the BMW's and meets their specs. Next time you pick up american syntec read the specs on the back. You will find they don't meet many of the european specs especially the long life specs.
As of today it is difficult to find pure synthetics such as Group IV and V oils and is limited to some smaller companies with the noted exception of the German Castrol syntec which is difficult to find. Even mobil1 one has only small amounts of PAO the rest is group III. I guess they felt if you can't beat them join them.
If you want a pure group IV or better motor oil there is redline and amsoil. For street use Amsoil is probably a better bet. All there oils are PAO based exept their XL line which they openly tell you is group III.
Hope this helps.
In 1999 mobil sued castrol for false advertising. I use the term sued even though it was not a legal court case as we know it, but rather was heard in front of the NAD. National advertising division. They determined that group III oils were refined enough to be advertised as synthetic. The rest is history.
That said, it is important to point out that the German made castrol syntec is full PAO. This is because german laws do not recognize group III as true synthetics. This is the oil that comes in the BMW's and meets their specs. Next time you pick up american syntec read the specs on the back. You will find they don't meet many of the european specs especially the long life specs.
As of today it is difficult to find pure synthetics such as Group IV and V oils and is limited to some smaller companies with the noted exception of the German Castrol syntec which is difficult to find. Even mobil1 one has only small amounts of PAO the rest is group III. I guess they felt if you can't beat them join them.
If you want a pure group IV or better motor oil there is redline and amsoil. For street use Amsoil is probably a better bet. All there oils are PAO based exept their XL line which they openly tell you is group III.
Hope this helps.
All that is needed is for those companies which are still using PAO to educate the public. To boldly proclaim their PAO content and let people know if it doesn't say PAO, likely it is Group III. Why wouldn't the company using the better base oil, proclaim that fact? Only reason I can think of is they may not do it in case pricing gets to where they too want back down to Group III. If I want any PAO I will go to Amsoil because, as stated above, they do tell you which of their oils are PAO.