EHC fyrquel

Dear Sir
Filtration technologies such as Ion Exchange and Ion Charge Bonding can remove acids and dissolved metals including the impurities added from using Fuller's earth (Ca, Mg, Fe) or with those from using alumina type products (Na). Solid contamination can be removed with quality filtration which many EHC systems lack. Are you sure the impurities you are referring to are mechanical in nature and not from the acid removal filters? If the contaminants are Ca, Mg, Fe, or Na they are likely from the acid filters.

The issue of dissolved metal contamination in EHC fluid is common and can easily be addressed. I suggest that for Phosphate ester EHC fluids that contaminants in the form of dissolved metals be maintained <5ppm per element. Ideally no dissolved metals other than Phosphorous are desirable.
By removing dissolved metals you can prevent these contaminants from depositing on servo valves and related components. For more support please review our website http://www.cleanoil.com or contact me at pdufresne@cleanoil.com

Cheers!
Peter

quote:

Originally posted by pmk:
We have to replace the Steam Turbine Electro Hydraulic Oil (Fyrquel) due to persistant mechanical impurities 225ppm against the max allowable limit of 100ppm.Total quantity of oil replaced is around 400liters.Please let us know whether we can do something to make use of this oil by filtration.Kindly let us know.

Dear Sir,
I have sent you my reply saperately against your specifc inquiry. But it is possible to filter the oil. Get the Oil tested for Water content and acid number and for EHC Oil must be clean up to NAS /6 - NAS - 7 level and water content should be maxi. 50 ppm.

Regards.
V.S.Dave

To maintain phosphate ester properly you need to the acid numbers by fluid conditioning (Selexsorb GT is recommended for this), water removal and particle filtration.Ion exchange may help with the acid numbers but it may cause water contamination as a by product thereby causing more problems. As a filtration person who works with many people in the power industry, I have seen many such complaints. I would recommend that you speak with the people at Supresta to discuss your situation. Carlos Martinez or Paul Hartsuch may be good people to start with.

Dear PMK, I know of no turbine OEM that has a 100ppm limit. Most use particulate contamination limits based on NAS or ISO categories. The fluid does not require replacing just better filtering but first verify that your sampling procedure is okay. If you are not getting filter element plugging and have the proper filter elements then you might not have particulate problems. Be very careful about making changes because in most cases the original equipment is fine. Some of the suggestions are not risk free.

quote:

Originally posted by pmk:
We have to replace the Steam Turbine Electro Hydraulic Oil (Fyrquel) due to persistant mechanical impurities 225ppm against the max allowable limit of 100ppm.Total quantity of oil replaced is around 400liters.Please let us know whether we can do something to make use of this oil by filtration.Kindly let us know.

Dear sir,
i have been using phosphate ester base hydraulic fluids for power pack and turbine and would like to know the source for procurment of fyrquel 220 and the approximate price . your oil can be re-used depending on the TAN number of the oil . this test can be done in any lab and the result can be obtained within one day . pl let me know the result and other data .

dear sir,
we are phosphate ester based lubricant suppliers and can supply various brands such as FYRQUEL , PYROSAFE and a low cost phosphate ester product also.

quote:

Originally posted by paulu:
To maintain phosphate ester properly you need to the acid numbers by fluid conditioning (Selexsorb GT is recommended for this), water removal and particle filtration.Ion exchange may help with the acid numbers but it may cause water contamination as a by product thereby causing more problems. As a filtration person who works with many people in the power industry, I have seen many such complaints. I would recommend that you speak with the people at Supresta to discuss your situation. Carlos Martinez or Paul Hartsuch may be good people to start with.

Paul

Supresta is in a unique position, aren't they? They have the majority market share in the EHC market, supply an acid scavenging technology and also provide free fluid analysis. This appears like a high-value service offering to customers.

Until one looks a little deeper.

The selexsorb data sheet warns against using selexsorb on “older fluids”. What exactly is an older fluid? Selexsorb can have several negative consequences on the operation of the EHC system and the quality of the fluid including air release properties, foaming issues and gel which is referred by end-users as Vaseline, fish-eyes or black goup. This is due to the reaction of Y-Zeolite with phosphate ester. An ingredient of Y-zeolite is sodium silicate. It is possible for Na to leach from the filters into the phosphate ester to react. The presence of Na in phosphate esters forms metal soaps and deposits on servo-valves. This causes unit trips. Elevated Na and other dissolved metals causes the acid number to increase at a faster rate and Supresta recommends more frequent Selexsorb filter changes. Eventually, this results in escalating acid numbers and the need for a bleed & feed or dump & recharge. Not entirely inconvenient for Supresta.

Selexsorb has a wide particle size distribution. It's zeolitic nucleation center is less than 0.1 microns. Prolonged use of selexsorb may cause a high distribution of extremely small particles (smaller than mechanical filters can remove) which can cause valve silting.

Now look at their fluid analysis program. They are the only lab that I’m aware of that does not provide spectrochemical analysis. Even the cheapest analytical package includes spectro. The EPRI EHC Maintenance Guide recommends running metals every 6-months to identify by-products from acid scavenging medias. Why does Supresta not report metals? Could it be because of the possible increases of Na in fluids that use selexsorb?

One thing is certain...just because a fluid supplier provides free analysis and recommends acid scavenging media, doesn't necessarily mean that these services are in the best interest of the customer.

Dear Sir,
To start off i would go away from the Phosphate Ester like Fyrquel or Reolube and go with a product like EcoSafe EHC. One reason is because of the filter used like fullers earth and selexsorb. The only reason you need those is to take the acids out of the system. With EcoSafe EHC you use a microglass (Fiberglass) particle filter only. It creates organic acids only and has inhibator in the fluid chemistry to take care of the those acids. The good news is EcoSafe EHC is compatible with Phosphate Esters and the systems can just be top off.

Is EcoSafe self-extinguishable?

quote:

Originally posted by lubes:
Dear Sir,
To start off i would go away from the Phosphate Ester like Fyrquel or Reolube and go with a product like EcoSafe EHC. One reason is because of the filter used like fullers earth and selexsorb. The only reason you need those is to take the acids out of the system. With EcoSafe EHC you use a microglass (Fiberglass) particle filter only. It creates organic acids only and has inhibator in the fluid chemistry to take care of the those acids. The good news is EcoSafe EHC is compatible with Phosphate Esters and the systems can just be top off.

Whoa! Phosphate ester systems have off-line or bypass purification to keep the fluid in good condition. If you do the right maintenance the fluid can last, with normal makeup, 30 plus years! The purification is also simple and inexpensive but you cannot let the acid number get too high. In the case of some of the other products being offered they do not have the same fire resistance so you might as well use mineral oil if you can get someone to sign off on the increased risks. Phosphate are used because they are safer.

The other fluids will also degrade and often have to changed out after a few years so where is the benefit? Carefully review what you are getting and contact both your insurance company and other users first. If you are having problems with your phosphate ester fluids why not solve the root cause. Most fixes are free, you just have to follow the OEM recommendations. For more complicated issues see the EPRI report "Electrohydraulic Control (EHC)Fluid Maintenance Guide" report #1004554, Dec 2002.

Dear PMK
Are you PMK Reddy from NTPC KAWAS?
we are facing the same problem at NTPC KAWAS
SHIPI SRYS

http://www.cjc.dk/ccj-filter-division/contamination/acid/

No, Ecosafe is not self-extingushing. I give it to Phosephate Ester fluid they are a little better in this area. Look over history in power industry at the fires. They come from the Phosephate Ester fluid that have been used in EHC systems. Many people out there will tell you that under the right condition any fluid will burn and that correct. BTU factor: Ecosafe 12,800 - Fyrquel 13,500 - Quintolubric 15,000 - Mineral Oil 20,000 so you can tell what fluid will do less damage. Fyrquel has a TAN range from .01 - .2 before change out. Ecosafe is .35 - 5.0 before change out. People have been using Ecosafe for 10 - 15 years with ever changing out the fluid. They have only reach 1.75 Tan and has plenty of life left. Ecosafe users do not have to worry about putting on gear to work around the fluid unlike Phosephate Esters and can be disposed of like mineral oil. You also (remove)dont have to use the Fullers Earth filter just a particular filter. Ecosafe is FM Approved just like Fyrquel for insurance breaks. If you would like a list of user contact please let me know.

Odd about what is being claimed so I suggest that you read the relevant material. Phosphate esters are a lot better from the point of view of being self extinquishing. Plus check all the details the relevant MDSD's. The ones I checked ALL say to wear goggles and gloves. For some of the newer fluids many of the sections in the MSDS's do not have specific data so be careful.

Currently, there are no turbine fluids in the marketplace that can match the fire safety properties (flash point, self-extinguishing) of phosphate esters such as Fyrquel. It stands alone, but it has some serious drawbacks.

There are also very few fluids that have the levels of toxicity that phosphate esters do. This is why you should always wear gloves when handling the fluid and have to be extremely careful when handling items that contact the fluid to minimize the impact on the environment from the use of phosphate ester.

There are also few fluids that require the same level of care to keep the fluid in good shape. Proper use of filtration equipment that includes good particulate filtration, as well as a Selexsorb GT cartridge is critical to keeping the fluid in good shape.

A PAG (polkylene glycol) such as Ecosafe has excellent environmental qualities (biodegradability, toxicity) compared to phosphate esters, but doesn't have great fire prevention properties.

POEs (polyol esters) are also good alternatives to phosphate esters that have excellent biodegradability and toxicity results compared to phosphate esters, and usually have a flash point close to most phosphate esters, but do not have the self-extinguishing characteristics of phosphate esters.

Phosphate esters have big advantages over POEs and PAGs in its flash point and self-extinguishing characteristics.

POEs and PAGs have big advantages in initial fluid cost and cost of ongoing filtration. They also have tremendous environmental benefits.

All of the three fluids should be able to get FM approval for gas turbine use in their final form.

Some power producers currently have additional financial and environmental pressures that may make it worthwhile to consider a fluid other than a phosphate ester. Others may decide that it would be better to save money or "green up" other areas of their operation.

To some i guess all they can say is is it self extinguishing. We understand that is it a little better in that area that has been said. Still fires in the industry still happened on Phos Ester fluids. Any fluid under the right condition will burn, enough about that... What about the performance? yes Phos Ester have been out since the 50's and that is what people know. So why keep putting on all this extra equipment to keep the systems from having a problem?? I still cant figure that one out. So if you really look in the industry out there at all the people who have used FYRQUEL (most common) and now use Ecosafe are much happier because they have NO sticking valves and are not eating out the seals that they use too. Oh but wait everything comes back to self extinguishing.......