Fact or Fiction...does oil go bad if kept clean?

I believe it's true. However, with good filtration system, like you have, it will happen later than without it.

A good filtration system will help you oil last longer but not forever. Oxidation ond thermal breakdown may both be accelerated by ther presence of catalysts such as wear metals, varnish and dirt in the oil so it makes sense that if you remove these accelerants you will slow the onset of degredation.

There are technologies out there by various major OEM engine manufacturers that relies on a computerised system to extract a certain volume of oil from the sump and dispense it into the fuel system - hence it is "burned" away during the nomal combustion process. The oil removed from the system is however replenished from a "holding reervoir" in a process referred to as "sweetening".

Your good filtration system coupled with and OEM installed system like the one referred to above will prolong oil drain intervals, save lube costs .....

We had this technology (on the mine where I use to work) on Cummins off-highway V12 & V16 engines and we have been able to run them to 750 hours without dropping the oil - oil analysis results did not show significant oxidation, additive depletion etc. Oil analysis was performed very extensivelly on the units with the Centinel system to evaluate the efficiency (every 100 hours) and the results were very good.

I am just not sure if this technology is available for on-highway engines or by all OEMs.

According to leading oil analysis companies in the U.S., as well as a Technical Bulletin (#863)published by Mobil Oil, Oil itself does not "break down". The base oil will always remain the base oil. However, many factors cause an oil to become less and less efficient at lubricating.

According to the Mobil Oil Technical Bulletin #863, "Oil does not wear-out, break-down, or otherwise deteriorate to the point that it needs to be replaced. It does become contaminated with water, acids, carbon and sludge so that it can no longer provide the protection needed for high precision engine components."

Ultra-fine filtration (less than one micron) can substantially reduce the contaminates to a point where the oil is "better than new". However, there are factors that must be considered.

First, engine oil if formulated with many additives. There are additives to reduce foaming, clean the engine internals, modify the viscosity, and hold particulate. Using a sub-micron filter can remove (strip) any additive that is held "in suspension" (dispersed) from the oil, if it is larger than the micron rating of the filter. Any additive that is "in solution" (dissolved) in the oil will not be removed. According to Mobil, only the viscosity modifier is "in suspension" and able to be removed. But there is an exception. The dirt holding molecules in the oil can be removed after the dirt has begun to cling to these molecules. I will show why this is important in a moment.

Second, the filter must not only remove the particulate contamination, but also the moisture, oxides, acids and sludge to be the most effective. Without removing these contaminants, your engine will start to eat itself away from the inside.

Therefore, if you can continually filter the oil through a filter that is rated to less than one micron, remove the oxides, acid, sludge and moisture, you can effectively keep your oil at better than new specifications.

Used oil that is already dirty (called wasted), has been contaminated to the point that this technique will remove the beneficial additives right along with the contamination. So this whole process would need to be performed on equipment that has had a thorough cleaning and oil and filter change. This should allow you to use the oil indefinitely, only sampling for analysis.

My company offers just such a device, and I would be happy to make a recommendation. Please send me a Private Message or email me @ jprzybylski@meijicorp.com for more details.

Jim Przybylski

As the application is an engine oil, the original volume of oil decreases over time, due to evaporation, leakage, oxidation etc.. The quantity of oil in an engine, is frequently checked by the dip stick.

It is a standard practice to top up engine oils. During the top up the oil is rejunivated, this ensures that oil life is extended.

On very large sumps, as in Power Plants, with "dry sumps" the oil life can extended indefinitely. Only on contamination (water/Moisture/fuel etc..) and when oil reaches threshold of discard limits, would oil need to be necessarily changed.

Hussam

All of the above is true.

If you are running UOAs then add a RULER test.

Here are the results from a 400,000 mile oil change: http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g1343.pdf?zo=1181889 .

Tim, can you please provide real data like component measurements, filter change intervals, make up oil, oil analysis tests and history, qualifications of the "independent" engine rater, whether or not Haywood Gray is an AMSOIL dealer. The sales literature you posted is nice...but lacks are real data.

The brochure did list oil analysis for lead (30ppm) and iron (150ppm) at 409,000 miles. The Certified Engine Rater worked for Lubrizol. He noted that 95% of the crosshatching was still present in the cylinder walls.

In 2005 he reports he currently has his filters changed and oil analysis at 50,000 miles. His current truck has 519,000 mile on one oil change.

I see that a Haywood Gray is listed as a current AMSOIL Dealer. But since just a dealer I don't see that he sells much. Probably too much seat time in his truck and motorcycle.

This brochure may have the component measurements you are looking for: http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g2578.pdf?zo=1181889 .

Here is deposit and wear data on 60,000 mile oil changes in New York taxi cabs. http://www.worldsbestoil.ca/taxi-test.php .

Here is one with oil analysis and wear measurements: http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g2695.pdf?zo=1181889 .

Here is a school bus study with used oil analysis: http://www.amsoil.com/performa...unty.aspx?zo=1181889 .

Tim thanks for the other info, but I am more interested in the Mack. As for the oil analysis, did Haywood Gray take it himself and only once at the 409,000 mile mark? Perhaps he took samples at 20,000 mile intervals. I would like to see the trend lines of the TBN, Vis, additive packages, etc. Did he top up the oil level between filter changes effectively sweetening the additive package? Did Haywood supply the information to AMSOIL or did AMSOIL run a controlled test on that particular truck. Did the Engine rater take actual measurements that are published, or did he just "eyeball" it. My main area of curiousity is the TBN and Soot due to the dirty nature of the Mack engine. The flyer is a nice piece of advertising literature, however, without real data it is anecdotal at best. I've seen the sizzle, now give me the meat and potatoes!

You are welcome John. Sounds like you need to contact Haywood for the used oil analysis. Hopefully I have left enough hints that you can find him. I did read the soot levels were fine. My read in the brochure and other info on the web was that he took regular oil analysis at the time of his 40,000 to 50,000 mile filter changes.

Here are some soot and TBN numbers taken every 20,000 miles over a 125,000 mile oil change. http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g554.pdf?zo=1181889 . Also has more wear and deposit measurements.

How are them meat and potatoes? Getting full yet?

I think the take home message to the original poster is that if your oil analysis came back fine, then your oil has not worn out. Even at over a half million miles on Haywood's oil change.

Thanks Tim, I got the same idea on filter change intervals and regular analysis too. When we do oil analysis on a particular piece of our equipment, we keep a running record and use that to develop trends. I just thought it would be neat to actually see documented oil analysis on that particular engine of Haywoods. The other info is appreciated, but not pertinent to the Mack with 400k oil change. Take care.

You are welcome John. What kind of equipment are you using oil analysis on? Can you share the data?

Tim, we do testing on diesel engines, hydraulics, portable compressors, gearboxes, etc. Most of the analysis is consistent in sample intervals. Limits are used to trigger additional testing (micro patch, etc.) or oil change. The data isn't mine to provide. Take care.

{I use a Filtakleen Bypass Filtration System on my truck. Oil analysis results have been excellent. When mentioning my great results to several associates I frequently get a response back that oil breaks down from heat and that no matter how clean I keep my oil eventually it will simply wear out. Is this true?}

Hi AFS

If you are filtering the lubricant down to ISO 16/13 and topping up with new to replace losses then we would normally only oil change the system when the viscosity reduced to a point no go for the application or the fluid, as the lubricant is damaged we usually see the heavy ends of the lubricant precipitate and be filtered out and subsequently as the carbonised portion is removed the viscosity reduces.

Rob S