we have a pulp molding machine that rotates through a pulp slurry and the bearings on it are being washed out in a very short time. we are looking for a good grease that will stand up to running in and under water. Any suggestions?
Original Post
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Hi CKF,
I think you need not only grease but also an automatic lubricator, to have your bearing achieve long life. Please visit www.memolub.be for more info or you can send me a photo of your molding machine at memolub.ae@gmail.com
I think you need not only grease but also an automatic lubricator, to have your bearing achieve long life. Please visit www.memolub.be for more info or you can send me a photo of your molding machine at memolub.ae@gmail.com
Hi CKF
Calcium Sulfonate Thickeners would suit the application the best, The thickner will handle up to 50% water whilst retaining grease spec, keep in mind the contaminates in the pulp would tend to reduce the water resistance but the grease would be superior to any grease type in high water applications.
The thickner is very shear resistant so does not suit very high speed applications.
An auto greaser would keep a slow purge on the bearings and work well, Calcium Sulfonate thickners are not easy to pump so check out any auto greasers pumping capability.
regards
Rob S
www.rttech.com.au
Calcium Sulfonate Thickeners would suit the application the best, The thickner will handle up to 50% water whilst retaining grease spec, keep in mind the contaminates in the pulp would tend to reduce the water resistance but the grease would be superior to any grease type in high water applications.
The thickner is very shear resistant so does not suit very high speed applications.
An auto greaser would keep a slow purge on the bearings and work well, Calcium Sulfonate thickners are not easy to pump so check out any auto greasers pumping capability.
regards
Rob S
www.rttech.com.au
so this calcium Sulfonate, is this an addative we would add to the grease or a grease with an additive/thickener already good to go? If its an additive can you suggest a good grease to use with it?
Thanks
CKF
Thanks
CKF
quote:Calcium Sulfonate Thickeners
also this is the grease we are currently using.
Jax Magna-plate 500-2
There are three parts of a grease:
thickener
oil
additives
Thickener is not something you add later.
thickener
oil
additives
Thickener is not something you add later.
Hi CKF,
You should consider the Klueber STABURAGS range, but further info is required to make the right choice (bearing type, speed, load).
Try contacting the Klueber company or agent in your area.
They are trained to give professional assistance in selecting the right lubricant for critical applications.
You should consider the Klueber STABURAGS range, but further info is required to make the right choice (bearing type, speed, load).
Try contacting the Klueber company or agent in your area.
They are trained to give professional assistance in selecting the right lubricant for critical applications.
mr.ckf
we are marketing some speciality lubricants for this problem we have one of lubricants please let me know your location &adress
we are marketing some speciality lubricants for this problem we have one of lubricants please let me know your location &adress
You should check with the best product Omega 95 or their website http://www.magnagroup.com. Hope it's usefull for you.
Rgds,
Ted
Rgds,
Ted
Dear CKF,
You can go for good tackyfier grease with high base oil viscosity. Bechem High Lube FA 67 400 will be a suitable grease for you. For further details log on to www.bechem.de.
You can go for good tackyfier grease with high base oil viscosity. Bechem High Lube FA 67 400 will be a suitable grease for you. For further details log on to www.bechem.de.
We have a similar situation. Vertical pump where the lower lateral taper bearings occasionally ingest a little wastewater. This has resulted in rust on bearings, vibration, & rebuilding the pump. In addition to the need for a grease with a good tickifier and water wash out resistance it needs to comply with the O&M requirements of:
"bearings are to be lubricated with a premium quality lithium based NGLI # 2 grease suitable for antifriction bearing use. The grease should have a viscosity range of 150 to 220 cSt (mm2/sec) at 40 C (100 F) and Timken load rating of 16 kg (35 lb.) minimum. The grease should contain rust and oxidation inhibitors and extreme pressure additives."
Any ideas on what to use?
"bearings are to be lubricated with a premium quality lithium based NGLI # 2 grease suitable for antifriction bearing use. The grease should have a viscosity range of 150 to 220 cSt (mm2/sec) at 40 C (100 F) and Timken load rating of 16 kg (35 lb.) minimum. The grease should contain rust and oxidation inhibitors and extreme pressure additives."
Any ideas on what to use?
The choice of grease in applications such as these is quite important. But you may be missing something! The application is under water and no matter what grease you use, you will always run the rick of ingesting water through the seals. We have done many of these types of applications with an automated system that will dispense on an ongoing basis, a very small amount of grease to the bearing. This action will allow the grease to not only lubricate, but can be set up to add a small amount extra and that extra grease is used to flush water and other contaminants out of the bearing housing before damage can occur to the bearing. Water is one of the worst contaminants to deal with because of the "micro explosions" that can occur when it gets into the load zone. You are probably seeing the same kind of damage on your bearings that would see in a hydraulic pump when it cavitates. Hit me off line to get more info.
deanm@autolube.ca
deanm@autolube.ca
Hi CKF
Calcium Sulfonates are manufactured by Exon Mobil,
Their Grease has a passive EP system removing polar type additives found in normal EP greases
Polar additive assist water to mix with greases,
use an auto lube and make sure the auto lube can pump the grease,
have a read up on the specs on the net and you'll note the grease is designed for applications as you have,
Regards
Rob S
Calcium Sulfonates are manufactured by Exon Mobil,
Their Grease has a passive EP system removing polar type additives found in normal EP greases
Polar additive assist water to mix with greases,
use an auto lube and make sure the auto lube can pump the grease,
have a read up on the specs on the net and you'll note the grease is designed for applications as you have,
Regards
Rob S
Calciuim sulfonates are a good call, aluminum complex as well. Lithium complex greases are getting better every day in this area it seems, but this sounds like the application is so severe that a general purpose grease won't get it done.
I also like the auto-greaser suggestion - washout is going to happen no matter what.
I also like the auto-greaser suggestion - washout is going to happen no matter what.
I looked at Fastex's product data, they list a "lithium" thickener, but I'd have to guess that's a lithium complex. Everybody's got their own sort of magic pixie dust that makes their glop better than Brand X. They show a nice low Water Washout number, but no Water Spray-off. When I see one but not the other, my antennae perk up. Both are just bench tests and neither tells a complete story, but seeing good performance in both would give me more of a warm fuzzy. Got any case histories?
Any one considered a li-cal thickened type grease? Considering the application, product performance and cost, this type of grease could also be another option.
Lamont
Look on the Fastex website (fastexfx1.com)under industrial lubricants and then under greases and there are 2 articles on the waterproof grease.
The one on the ferry pin would talk to water resistance to give less wear and better life eventhough it is not a rotating bearing situation. Great Wolf uses this grease very successfully on their water ride bearings as well. The specs don't do this product justice but it really works differently then other greases. By the way, if handling this grease, wear rubber gloves as the residue is hard to remove from your skin.
Look on the Fastex website (fastexfx1.com)under industrial lubricants and then under greases and there are 2 articles on the waterproof grease.
The one on the ferry pin would talk to water resistance to give less wear and better life eventhough it is not a rotating bearing situation. Great Wolf uses this grease very successfully on their water ride bearings as well. The specs don't do this product justice but it really works differently then other greases. By the way, if handling this grease, wear rubber gloves as the residue is hard to remove from your skin.
I like highly adhesive greases in non-rotating wet applications. Al-complex is good at that. I'm more nervous about them in bearings. Folks who love highly adhesive greases tend to talk up the Water Spray-Off and discount the Water Washout. They claim that much of the loss of grease for these products in the WWO is due to grease climbing up the shaft, not directly from the water.
It's a bench test and they sure have their limitations. (That's why I like to see good performance in both.) But that phenomenon makes me wonder what happens in bearing service. I don't really care if the grease was forced out by the water or it got up and walked out on its own, if it's not in the bearing, it's doing me no good.
One of the limitations of the WWO is that it uses one bearing configuration at one speed (the downside of testing standardization). Am I talking out of my butt here? Anyone have real-world knowledge? They don't let me out of the lab much anymore. (And they hardly even let play with the toys anymore either.)
It's a bench test and they sure have their limitations. (That's why I like to see good performance in both.) But that phenomenon makes me wonder what happens in bearing service. I don't really care if the grease was forced out by the water or it got up and walked out on its own, if it's not in the bearing, it's doing me no good.
One of the limitations of the WWO is that it uses one bearing configuration at one speed (the downside of testing standardization). Am I talking out of my butt here? Anyone have real-world knowledge? They don't let me out of the lab much anymore. (And they hardly even let play with the toys anymore either.)
In greases for underwater applications I’d be less concern about the type of thickener used. Thickeners don’t lubricate, oil does (and eventual additives added). To me, the most important thing is the viscosity of base oil that grease is made of. Greases made from oils of 1000+ cSt have natural (inherent) tackiness that is hardly possible to match with added artificial tackifiers, and have zero Water Washout characteristics. Any NLFI grease made for underwater application would have much less thickeners added to achieve targeted consistency if higher viscosity oil is used rather than thinner oils.
quote:Originally posted by John Micetic:
In greases for underwater applications I’d be less concern about the type of thickener used. Thickeners don’t lubricate, oil does (and eventual additives added). To me, the most important thing is the viscosity of base oil that grease is made of. Greases made from oils of 1000+ cSt have natural (inherent) tackiness that is hardly possible to match with added artificial tackifiers, and have zero Water Washout characteristics. Any NLGI grease made for underwater application would have much less thickeners added to achieve targeted consistency if higher viscosity oil is used rather than thinner oils.
Yes, but in a wet application thickener is what keeps the base oil in the general vicinity of the contact surfaces.
Are you talking a base oil viscosity of ISO 1000? (900 - 1100 mm2/s at 40C) The problem there is that for a mineral, you're in the cylinder stock range. Those get their natural tackiness from asphaltenes. (Weren't the Asphalt Teens a 50's doo-wop group? If not, they should have been.) The asphaltic components provide high viscosity but poor lubricity.
To get there with polyisobutylenes, you have a synthetic version of the same phenomenon. (PIBs are the "artificial tackifiers" of which you speak, more often than not.) To get there with high-vis PAO is pricey.
Unless the application can economically justify PAO, I'd bee leery about going higher than bright stock (~2500 second base oil, roughly an ISO 460) Even then I'd want some ~600 second base oil in the mix also, because bright stock can be pretty asphaltic as well, depending on the crude source.
Are you talking a base oil viscosity of ISO 1000? (900 - 1100 mm2/s at 40C) The problem there is that for a mineral, you're in the cylinder stock range. Those get their natural tackiness from asphaltenes. (Weren't the Asphalt Teens a 50's doo-wop group? If not, they should have been.) The asphaltic components provide high viscosity but poor lubricity.
To get there with polyisobutylenes, you have a synthetic version of the same phenomenon. (PIBs are the "artificial tackifiers" of which you speak, more often than not.) To get there with high-vis PAO is pricey.
Unless the application can economically justify PAO, I'd bee leery about going higher than bright stock (~2500 second base oil, roughly an ISO 460) Even then I'd want some ~600 second base oil in the mix also, because bright stock can be pretty asphaltic as well, depending on the crude source.
LBD,
You are quite right. I omitted to mention that mineral oils are out of the consideration, because to my knowledge there is none such on the market anyway. I did have polyisobutylene base in mind, because we have good experience with greases made from high viscous PIBs. They are very tenacious and really stick to underwater bearings (e.g. wicket gates, watering/unwatering trunnion gates at navlocks), and their water washout characteristics are between 0 and 1.5%. Considering the price and comparison on that basis, I’d say you get what you paid for. But, knowing that your grease will not be washed away as easy as some others would be, should encourage folks to look into decreasing the amount of grease delivered to bearings or to extend intervals and frequency of its delivery. By doing this they would easily offset price difference and still provide great protection to the underwater equipment.
You are quite right. I omitted to mention that mineral oils are out of the consideration, because to my knowledge there is none such on the market anyway. I did have polyisobutylene base in mind, because we have good experience with greases made from high viscous PIBs. They are very tenacious and really stick to underwater bearings (e.g. wicket gates, watering/unwatering trunnion gates at navlocks), and their water washout characteristics are between 0 and 1.5%. Considering the price and comparison on that basis, I’d say you get what you paid for. But, knowing that your grease will not be washed away as easy as some others would be, should encourage folks to look into decreasing the amount of grease delivered to bearings or to extend intervals and frequency of its delivery. By doing this they would easily offset price difference and still provide great protection to the underwater equipment.
quote:we have a pulp molding machine that rotates through a pulp slurry and the bearings on it are being washed out in a very short time. we are looking for a good grease that will stand up to running in and under water. Any suggestions?
Hello CKF...although this post is a bit old perhaps you might still be looking for your solution. If your application is truly running in a slurry mixture rather than trying to prolong the enevitable failure perhaps you should consider a different bearing material that is not dependent on an external lubricant for it's existance. There are many good plastics that might fit your needs and provide you with a significent trouble free life.
Many good suggestions have been made but they might not have addressed the over riding root cause of the failure mode.
just a suggestion....
Dear CKF,
The many posts talk about Water washout ( or resistance to it), high loads etc., but have missed the environmental aspect altogether. The product should also be biodegradable and possibly meet HOCNF as well. Try Boron Greases.
http://profitablegroup.com/doc...nthetic%20Grease.PDF
Hussam
The many posts talk about Water washout ( or resistance to it), high loads etc., but have missed the environmental aspect altogether. The product should also be biodegradable and possibly meet HOCNF as well. Try Boron Greases.
http://profitablegroup.com/doc...nthetic%20Grease.PDF
Hussam
Water washout resistance may not be your main problem. Often in pulp and paper mills and in steel mills the water will contain surfactants or pH modifiers that can degel a grease resulting in it being much more easily flushed from the bearing then if it was a simple water resistance problem. You can ask you supplier to perform some ASTM D1264 water washout tests using the actual aqueous solution from your process.
we can offer you our product Ultramillgrease 460 ,which is calcium sulphonate based grease with additiona additives to resist water wash out.
Ajay
Ajay
Dear Ajay,
Thanks, Pls advise if grease meets following:
1. Water washout below 2%
2. Timken OK load 89 Kg.
3. Biodegradeble
4. HOCNF
5. No rusting.
Hussam
Thanks, Pls advise if grease meets following:
1. Water washout below 2%
2. Timken OK load 89 Kg.
3. Biodegradeble
4. HOCNF
5. No rusting.
Hussam
CKF,
That sort of depends on the operating conditions. The solution might differ depending on speed, bearing type and size and operating temperature.
Cheers,
GG
That sort of depends on the operating conditions. The solution might differ depending on speed, bearing type and size and operating temperature.
Cheers,
GG
Our grease will work for this application. www.krazygrease.com
Here is another http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/gwr.aspx?zo=1181889 .
"Synthetic Water Resistant Lithium Complex Grease (GWR)
Multi-Purpose NLGI #2 GC-LB Extreme Pressure Fortified. Superior lubrication and protection in automotive and industrial applications with extensive exposure to water."
"PRODUCT DESCRIPTION
AMSOIL Synthetic Water Resistant Grease (GWR) is an extreme-pressure, multipurpose grease formulated specially for wet-duty performance. Its water washout and sprayoff resistance are ideal for wheel bearings of vehicles and trailers frequently exposed to water, mud, snow or ice. It is also excellent for use in plants, such as paper mills, in which machinery undergoes frequent or prolonged exposure to water."
"Water Washout and Sprayoff Protection
AMSOIL Synthetic Water Resistant Grease derives its superior wet-duty performance from its peerless cohesiveness and adhesiveness. It holds together when exposed to water and clings tenaciously to metal surfaces when wet. Components remain protected during prolonged exposure to standing water or exposure to pressurized water."
"TYPICAL TECHNICAL PROPERTIES
AMSOIL Synthetic Lithium Complex Water Resistant Grease (GWR)
AMSOIL GWR NLGI GC-LB
Thickener Lithium Complex NR*
NLGI Consistency Grade 2 NR*
NLGI Performance Grade GC-LB GC-LB
Extreme Pressure Fortified Yes NR*
Penetration (ASTM D-217) 25°C [77°F], 0.1 mm
Unworked 265-295 220-340
Worked 60 strokes 265-295 220-340
Dropping Point (ASTM D-2265) °C [°F] 273 [525] 220 [428]
Water Washout (ASTM D-1264) 80 °C [175°F] % loss 3.5 15 max
Oil Separation (ASTM D-1742) 24 hr. @ 25°C [77°F], % loss 1.0 6 max
Rust Protection (ASTM D-1743) pass 1 max
Timken OK Load Test (ASTM D-2509), lbs. 45 NR*
Four Ball Wear Test (ASTM D-2266) Wear Scar Diameter, mm 0.48 0.6 max
Compatibility with other greases excellent NR*
Extreme Pressure, Four Ball Method (ASTM D-2596)
Weld Point, kgf. 315 200 min
Load Wear Index, kgf. 42 30 min
Meets Disc Brake Wheel Bearing Specification:
GM 4733-M Yes NR
GM 6031-M Yes NR
Chrysler MS-3701 Yes NR
High Temperature Life (ASTM D-3527) Hours 100 80 min
Fretting Wear (ASTM D-4170)* Mg 9.2 10 max
Leakage (ASTM D-4290), g* 1.0 10 max.
Low Temperature Torque (ASTM D-4693) n*m, max @ -40°C [-40°F] 7.5 15.5
Water Spray Off (ASTM D-4049), % max 8.5 NR*
*NR: Not Required for NLGI GC or LB labeling"
"Synthetic Water Resistant Lithium Complex Grease (GWR)
Multi-Purpose NLGI #2 GC-LB Extreme Pressure Fortified. Superior lubrication and protection in automotive and industrial applications with extensive exposure to water."
"PRODUCT DESCRIPTION
AMSOIL Synthetic Water Resistant Grease (GWR) is an extreme-pressure, multipurpose grease formulated specially for wet-duty performance. Its water washout and sprayoff resistance are ideal for wheel bearings of vehicles and trailers frequently exposed to water, mud, snow or ice. It is also excellent for use in plants, such as paper mills, in which machinery undergoes frequent or prolonged exposure to water."
"Water Washout and Sprayoff Protection
AMSOIL Synthetic Water Resistant Grease derives its superior wet-duty performance from its peerless cohesiveness and adhesiveness. It holds together when exposed to water and clings tenaciously to metal surfaces when wet. Components remain protected during prolonged exposure to standing water or exposure to pressurized water."
"TYPICAL TECHNICAL PROPERTIES
AMSOIL Synthetic Lithium Complex Water Resistant Grease (GWR)
AMSOIL GWR NLGI GC-LB
Thickener Lithium Complex NR*
NLGI Consistency Grade 2 NR*
NLGI Performance Grade GC-LB GC-LB
Extreme Pressure Fortified Yes NR*
Penetration (ASTM D-217) 25°C [77°F], 0.1 mm
Unworked 265-295 220-340
Worked 60 strokes 265-295 220-340
Dropping Point (ASTM D-2265) °C [°F] 273 [525] 220 [428]
Water Washout (ASTM D-1264) 80 °C [175°F] % loss 3.5 15 max
Oil Separation (ASTM D-1742) 24 hr. @ 25°C [77°F], % loss 1.0 6 max
Rust Protection (ASTM D-1743) pass 1 max
Timken OK Load Test (ASTM D-2509), lbs. 45 NR*
Four Ball Wear Test (ASTM D-2266) Wear Scar Diameter, mm 0.48 0.6 max
Compatibility with other greases excellent NR*
Extreme Pressure, Four Ball Method (ASTM D-2596)
Weld Point, kgf. 315 200 min
Load Wear Index, kgf. 42 30 min
Meets Disc Brake Wheel Bearing Specification:
GM 4733-M Yes NR
GM 6031-M Yes NR
Chrysler MS-3701 Yes NR
High Temperature Life (ASTM D-3527) Hours 100 80 min
Fretting Wear (ASTM D-4170)* Mg 9.2 10 max
Leakage (ASTM D-4290), g* 1.0 10 max.
Low Temperature Torque (ASTM D-4693) n*m, max @ -40°C [-40°F] 7.5 15.5
Water Spray Off (ASTM D-4049), % max 8.5 NR*
*NR: Not Required for NLGI GC or LB labeling"
This forum is very informative.
Thank you all...
Thank you all...
You can get Omega 95 from www.sovereign-omega.co.uk/Omeg...-Control-Grease.html
Dear CKF,
We have recently developed a grease which we supply to Pulp & paper mill for similar application. Grease worked there for 8 weeks without being top up.
It's multiple soap complex product with high base oil viscosity. Please mail us your contact details on innovativecompany@gmail.com so that we can mail you product details & case study.
We have recently developed a grease which we supply to Pulp & paper mill for similar application. Grease worked there for 8 weeks without being top up.
It's multiple soap complex product with high base oil viscosity. Please mail us your contact details on innovativecompany@gmail.com so that we can mail you product details & case study.
CKF-
Aluminum Complex thickened greases are waterproof and will work for your application. There are many quality products available. Unfortunately, a lot of misinformation as well. A Certified Lubrication Specialist is someone trained to find solutions to these types of problems. I have several options to solve your problem. Our greases are in water treatment plants, off-shore drilling rigs, all types of sea faring vessels, locks and dams, etc... Contact me directly so I can pinpoint the exact solution for your needs. (512)785-5765
Aluminum Complex thickened greases are waterproof and will work for your application. There are many quality products available. Unfortunately, a lot of misinformation as well. A Certified Lubrication Specialist is someone trained to find solutions to these types of problems. I have several options to solve your problem. Our greases are in water treatment plants, off-shore drilling rigs, all types of sea faring vessels, locks and dams, etc... Contact me directly so I can pinpoint the exact solution for your needs. (512)785-5765
I'd use Calcium based grease.
Petron Plus is the best, we have several customer testimonials supporting water resistance, catch me on email to my site and I will send you some info if you like
www.delawarevalleypetronplus.com
www.delawarevalleypetronplus.com
quote:Originally posted by CKF:
we have a pulp molding machine that rotates through a pulp slurry and the bearings on it are being washed out in a very short time. we are looking for a good grease that will stand up to running in and under water. Any suggestions?
Looks interesting. Can you share the
1. Water Washout values
2. Timken Ok load
Hussam
1. Water Washout values
2. Timken Ok load
Hussam
Is the bearings in question designed to be lubricated from an external fitting?
