What's up with honda's recommendation of 5w20 motor oil for changes? is this for lower friction and consequent higher fuel mileage, or is honda's engine,, 2.3 litre four so special that it takes a lower viscisity oil?
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There is a big debate over this topic.
In general, the manufacturers are reccomending 5W20 to pick up some mileage points for the C.A.F.E. standards. That does NOT necessarilly mean that 5W20 is inherently bad, as very good oil analysis reports come back, espicically with Motorcraft 5W20. There are an increasing number of cars breaking 100,000 miles on steady 5W20 diets, so long term engine life is probably OK...though it is early to tell much there.
Those who think that 5w20 is evil like to point out that Honda and Ford often reccomend heavier oils in extremely hot areas that don't have American Fuel economy standards...like south america.
On the other hand, Ford retroactively applied the 5w20 reccomendation...and they see no benifit with the governement by increasing the gas mileage of 1995 cars.
Something worth considering is that dino 5W30's often shear down to 20 pretty quickly, and require lots of VI that can wind up as sludge.
In general, the manufacturers are reccomending 5W20 to pick up some mileage points for the C.A.F.E. standards. That does NOT necessarilly mean that 5W20 is inherently bad, as very good oil analysis reports come back, espicically with Motorcraft 5W20. There are an increasing number of cars breaking 100,000 miles on steady 5W20 diets, so long term engine life is probably OK...though it is early to tell much there.
Those who think that 5w20 is evil like to point out that Honda and Ford often reccomend heavier oils in extremely hot areas that don't have American Fuel economy standards...like south america.
On the other hand, Ford retroactively applied the 5w20 reccomendation...and they see no benifit with the governement by increasing the gas mileage of 1995 cars.
Something worth considering is that dino 5W30's often shear down to 20 pretty quickly, and require lots of VI that can wind up as sludge.
Good points Abus. But I view oil weight as driving on a mountain road. On one side is the mountain and if you drive too close you may sideswipe the rocks (perhaps 20w50 or heavier). On the other hand, you can drive along the edge of the precipice (5w20) all day with narry a problem, but the risk of going over the edge is very high.
Ford retroactively recommending 5w20 in older vehicles may be motivated by the economics of not having to stock more than one oil grade for routine oil changes.
As for 5w30s sheering down, I believe if you should only go with a 5w30 if needed for cold weather and in that case you should also consider synthetics. I suspect a good synthetic 10w30 might perform better in cold temps than a dino 5w30. I would even say one could use a 5w20 in winter in a car that sees only short trips, since the oil never fully warms up. But it seems totally illogical to run 5w20 in Arizona during July and August, or even Michigan in July and August. It seems totally pointless as a 10w30 will perform fine in these conditions and give better protection.
Ford retroactively recommending 5w20 in older vehicles may be motivated by the economics of not having to stock more than one oil grade for routine oil changes.
As for 5w30s sheering down, I believe if you should only go with a 5w30 if needed for cold weather and in that case you should also consider synthetics. I suspect a good synthetic 10w30 might perform better in cold temps than a dino 5w30. I would even say one could use a 5w20 in winter in a car that sees only short trips, since the oil never fully warms up. But it seems totally illogical to run 5w20 in Arizona during July and August, or even Michigan in July and August. It seems totally pointless as a 10w30 will perform fine in these conditions and give better protection.
My understanding is that the trend toward OEM's recomending lower viscosity oils such as 5w20 in their US fleets is purely aimed at improving fleet CAFE fuel standards. Lighter oils require less energy to overcome the friction imparted to the engine by the oil. If you are more concerned with fuel economy then use the lighter oils. If on the other hand you want your vehicle to last longer use a higher weight oil with a good anti-wear package.
Well, as of yet, I haven't seen used oil analysis reports that show higher wear with Motorcraft 5W20 (or Pennz) so as much as my gut feeling is that high loads in hot weather seems strange with a 5W20, I can't go as far as to call it illogical. Personally, I think the wear difference, at most, would come into play above 200,000 miles. With the extremely high level of anti-wear adds in the good 5W20s, I suspect that they outperform a good number of dino 10W30's, espicially on short trip usuage, even in hot weather.
Ford didn't retroactively spec 5W20 for everything, so dealers still have to stock 15W40, 10W30, and 5W30.
Personally, the proof is in the wear #'s and as of yet, the 5W20's are doing pretty well for themselves. I can completely understand emotionally wanting to run a heavier oil in the summer, and it definitely won't hurt your engine to do that, but I don't think you NEED to.
Ford didn't retroactively spec 5W20 for everything, so dealers still have to stock 15W40, 10W30, and 5W30.
Personally, the proof is in the wear #'s and as of yet, the 5W20's are doing pretty well for themselves. I can completely understand emotionally wanting to run a heavier oil in the summer, and it definitely won't hurt your engine to do that, but I don't think you NEED to.
Some time back I came across an article on the web by the A.S.E. (automotive society of engineers) that stated in part (I'm paraphrasing) that they had determined that the vast majority(don't remember the exact %) of engine wear occured durring the few seconds at start-up it takes to get the oil fully circulated through the engines entire lubrication system(from pan to cam/cylinder head/valve train areas(depending on engine design ie;OHV/OHC etc. ...Based on this information it would apparently be beneficial to;1-prefill filters (to the extent possible)when performing oil changes and 2-use as thin an oil as appropriate for engine/temps/driving conditions and 3-use anti-drainback oil filters.It seems to me that there is no ONE solution appropriate for all vehicles/climates/driving conditions.This is a situation were a little research and some common sense will go a long way in order to determine proper oil/filter/change intervals for one's specific requirements.Hope this is of help to someome.
Re 1) I admit to pre filling filters but virgin oil may not be as a clean as it should be, so not sure as to best choice.
Re 2) In UK M1 is only 0W40 or 15W50 - I cannot find a reason why OW should not be only choice to prevent start up wear.
In addition esters may provide a way of reducing wear
http://www.silkoleneoil.com/techtip8.htm
3) The UK aftermarket filters are not high spec and good filtering must help prevent wear, although perhaps cost of by pass system is not warranted
http://www.practicingoilanalysis.com/article_detail.asp?articleid=401
Re 2) In UK M1 is only 0W40 or 15W50 - I cannot find a reason why OW should not be only choice to prevent start up wear.
In addition esters may provide a way of reducing wear
http://www.silkoleneoil.com/techtip8.htm
3) The UK aftermarket filters are not high spec and good filtering must help prevent wear, although perhaps cost of by pass system is not warranted
http://www.practicingoilanalysis.com/article_detail.asp?articleid=401
You frequently hear that the majority of wear occurs on startup, but I have never seen a scientific study to prove it. It is assumed, perhaps a fairly educated guess, but is it really as significant as it is said to be? Maybe only in cold weather.
Solutions to startup lube include an oil pan heater or a pre-luber. Going with a very thin oil for start up protection may very well result in more wear at operating temperature.
Solutions to startup lube include an oil pan heater or a pre-luber. Going with a very thin oil for start up protection may very well result in more wear at operating temperature.
TallPaul,
Probably in SAE
This indicates wear at low oil temp paperhttp://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF7/747.html
Probably in SAE
This indicates wear at low oil temp paperhttp://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF7/747.html
quote:That's a nice article. Oil formulators are able to influence this "cold start wear" with the usage of primary zincdithiophosphates. They are used up faster, but work under cold start conditions.
http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF7/747.html
quote:
Something worth considering is that dino 5W30's often shear down to 20 pretty quickly, and require lots of VI that can wind up as sludge.
Sheared VI's do not produce sludge.... They produce deposits, maybe varnish, but not sludge.
Sludge formations works in a complete different manner.
I posted an article on perfomance cars which had following comment re 0W20
Then we tried an experimental grade, 0w-20 yes, 0w-20! This wasn’t as risky as you may think, because this grade had already done a season’s racing with the Kawasaki World Superbike Team, giving them some useful extra power with no reliability problems. (But it must be said, they were only interested in 200 frantic miles before the engines went back to Japan)
In conjuction with the following a very good oil may just be sufficient
http://www.tytlabs.co.jp/office/elibrary/ereview/rev324epdf/e324ab_tohyama.html
Do Honda recommend any specific oil if so what is the HTHS?
Then we tried an experimental grade, 0w-20 yes, 0w-20! This wasn’t as risky as you may think, because this grade had already done a season’s racing with the Kawasaki World Superbike Team, giving them some useful extra power with no reliability problems. (But it must be said, they were only interested in 200 frantic miles before the engines went back to Japan)
In conjuction with the following a very good oil may just be sufficient
http://www.tytlabs.co.jp/office/elibrary/ereview/rev324epdf/e324ab_tohyama.html
Do Honda recommend any specific oil if so what is the HTHS?