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Read our primer articles on High Mileage Oil, Synthetic Oil and Kinematic Viscosity

I'm not taking sides, just showing what I've found.

To quote a man who has been closely involved with car makers and oil for decades.."use a lubricant of the correct viscosity that is specified by the Manufacturer and Listed by them as Approved – especially when under any form of Warranty"

Of course, out of warranty, use what you will and be happy. But you won't go wrong doing the above.

ps, better RL or Amsoil than swill...synlube any day.

BTW, Exceeding the OLM is a warranty violation regardless of what oil you use.
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
Tim, you said above "No vehicle manufacturer requires API approved oils", but that post of mine you mentioned..."Only use oils “Certified For Gasoline Engines” by the American Petroleum Institute (API)."
My statement is true. The manufactures only mention using certified oils to help the consumer pick an oil, but it is not required as long as they meet API specs. You can read more at http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g2488.pdf . Ask any vehicle manufacture if API certification is a requirement, and they will tell you it is not. Just that it has to meet the specs.

quote:
Originally posted by Trajan: There is even a drawing in the manual of what to look for.

So yes, a car mfg is telling you to use API certed oil.
. Yes, they can tell you that, and they can even tell you brands to use, but it is not a warranty requirement. Here is another good read: https://www.amsoil.com/dealer/fearfactor/API.pdf .

quote:
Originally posted by Trajan: The manual is very specific, at least for the Stang. For the V6, 5w30 only. Use API certed oil. For the 8, it's 5w20 only.
You really have to look up each car for it's specific oil requirement on the AMSOIL website for the manufacturer's and AMSOIL's recommendations. They change from time to time. Ford used to recommend 5w30 for my old Fords, and then switched to recommending 5w20 for them. And AMSOIL has never had a warranty repair declined do to the recommended AMSOIL in the engine.


quote:
Originally posted by Trajan: For my car, it's different. A specific weight isn't listed as it's a non ///M. But it has to be A3/B3 LL-01 under warranty. It can be 0w30, 5w30, 0w40. BMWNA has a very short list of oils for USA driven bimmers. So it's either Castrol, BMW label, Valvoline MST, or Mobil 1 while under warranty. Nothing else.

In the US and Canada, the consumer laws say that if a manufacture says only certain brands can be used, they have to provide them free of charge. The list is only a recommendation. Any oil that meets the manufacturers specs can be used. AMSOIL makes a European oil for many of those cars. You just look your car up on the website and see which oils AMSOIL recommends. AMSOIL has never voided any warranty in 38 years and the oil has never failed when used as recommended. And if it does, AMSOIL pays.
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
Lets see Tim you said this:

The OLM and OM "recommendations" was designed for the lowest quality oil that barely meets the Ford specs. It doesn't apply to AMSOIL. Yes, if I had a new Mustang, used SSO and drove it 35,000 normal miles in a year or less and it would still keep the factory warranty intact.

----------------------------------------

So Ford would cover engine an problem (2010) if they spec'd a 20 grade oil, 6 month or 7500 mile OCI, under these conditions. You ran SSO 0W30 for 35,000 "normal" miles, or 1 year w/o a change? Lets say you developed a nice bearing knock. Ford will eat it? Dream on............ I hope you don't tell your customers that Tim. No no.
If the bearing knock was the result of a failed part caused by a manufacturing defect, then Ford would eat it. If it was due to the oil failing, then AMSOIL would eat it if AMSOIL recommended SSO for 35,000 miles/1 year for that particular engine. How about Red Line?

quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:Wait make sure you tell the service writer they were "normal" miles, when you tell him about the knock. Oh wait Amsoil will eat it.
It doesn't matter how many or what type of miles you have if the oil did not fail and the failure was a manufacturing defect.
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
I'm not taking sides, just showing what I've found.

To quote a man who has been closely involved with car makers and oil for decades.."use a lubricant of the correct viscosity that is specified by the Manufacturer and Listed by them as Approved – especially when under any form of Warranty"

Of course, out of warranty, use what you will and be happy. But you won't go wrong doing the above.

ps, better RL or Amsoil than swill...synlube any day.

BTW, Exceeding the OLM is a warranty violation regardless of what oil you use.
Exceeding the OLM is not a warranty violation. Warranties only cover manufacturing defects, regardless of mileage. The oil would have to be proven to fail. Here is what GM has to say:
“If engine damage otherwise covered by warranty
was found to be unrelated to the engine lubricant,
then the consumer’s practice with regard to oil
change intervals would not be a relevant considera-
tion, and the warranty claim would be honored.”
Fuels and Lubricants Division,
General Motors Research Laboratories

And:
“The New Vehicle Warranty would not be void
simply because an owner failed to use proper
engine oils or did not perform maintenance at the
prescribed intervals. Warranty applicability is
contingent upon the cause of failure.”
Service Policies and Procedures Department,
General Motors Corporation “
BMW oil changes under warranty are free. You get one per year or every 15,000 miles.

Violating the OLM would violate the warranty. Not the whole warranty of course. While your engine mounts would be replaced regardless, if your engine decided to sludge up because you didn't bother to follow said OLM, or any other oil related problem, you're screwed.

That link brought up by one in an attempt to blame oil for owner stupidity. Way over the OLM in his turbo diesel. And used the wrong oil to boot.

Guess who didn't cover it under warranty.
Last edited by trajan
quote:
Originally posted by Nucleardawg:
Tim,

So is their any documentation you can post here from Amsoil, that shows how many engines Amsoil covers, repairs/replaces under their warranty every year?

I have already stated my preferance for Redline, though I do not doubt the quality of Amsoil's product line.

AMSOIL stated in a Lubes 'n Greases article http://www.performanceoiltechn...allarticle_aug05.pdf Measuring up
“We receive about 20 miscellaneous vehicle
warranty claims per year,” reported Albert’s
son, Alan Amatuzio, executive vice presi-
dent and chief operating officer. “We inves-
tigate each one comprehensively, examine
maintenance records, mileage, type of ser-
vice and repair invoices. We conduct
phone interviews and hire independent
expert investigators and engineers to
review failed parts and write an
Investigative Findings Report documenting
our results and send it to the claimant.
“Only in rare instances when we cannot
find an explanation for the problem, even
though the lubricant is not to blame, do
we accept a claim. Paid claims have
amounted to exactly two in the last two
years, which speaks volumes given the
quantity of oil we sell. It was later deter-
mined that both paid claims were ulti-
mately the result of manufacturing errors
on behalf of a major automotive OEM.”

A good article. Well worth reading if you would like to know more about the AMSOIL company.
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
BMW oil changes under warranty are free. You get one per year or every 15,000 miles.
Nice! I wish BMW Motorcycles was as generous! I hate changing oil on my K1200LTs.


For what they charge for one, ya think they would!!!

I extended my warranty from 50 to 100,000 miles.
A few weeks later, all the brakes were replaced.
Dodged a big bullet there.
quote:
Originally posted by Nucleardawg:
Trajan,

So BMW gives you a free oil change every year/15,000 miles...with a car as nice as you drive, I would be changing it at half that mileage...

Was it MB or BMW that faced some lawsuit over their oil change recommendations, after some of their engines sludged up?


I did change it every 7500-8K. The thing is, while under warranty, if you want them to do it before the OLM says to, you pay for it. And we all know what a dealer charges.....

It was MB who got that one. http://www.oil-tech.com/32million.htm

It wasn't the oil's fault. It was MB that advised using dino oil and paired it with a FFS that would let you go up to 20K miles before it says "Hey Dummy!!! Change your oil!!!"

My OLM usually shows around 14.7K, though once it did show 15.2K
quote:
Originally posted by Nucleardawg:
Can you reset the OLM in that car, or is their some proprietary progam that the dealer uses?


I can reset it, but it has to be fairly close to the end for me to do it. Just a button press or two.

FWIW, this is what my manual says about oil:

BMW has approved certain grades of engine oil.
Use approved High Performance Synthetic Oil.

I listed the approve oil/weights earlier.

Now if you have a Z4M, or say an M6, it's even easier. Castrol TWS 10w60. Not something on the shelf at Auto Zone.
Reading through everything, I see we agree to disagree, but without the trolls everything seems to be civil.

Hey mods if your reading this, I think this says loads about the resident trolls...

I will say Amsoil obviously sells a quality product. It's the way they market it that leaves me a bit sour...Though without a doubt it has been succesful for them.

I have a 01 Honda Shadow Sabre 1100. It is due for an oil change, the Amsoil product is available locally at a few dealerships...I will also look into the Redline offering as well. May have to see if any data is available, to compare the two...Will look for any VOA/UOA's to compare as well.
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
quote:
Originally posted by Nucleardawg:
Tim,

So is their any documentation you can post here from Amsoil, that shows how many engines Amsoil covers, repairs/replaces under their warranty every year?

I have already stated my preferance for Redline, though I do not doubt the quality of Amsoil's product line.

AMSOIL stated in a Lubes 'n Greases article http://www.performanceoiltechn...allarticle_aug05.pdf Measuring up
“We receive about 20 miscellaneous vehicle
warranty claims per year,” reported Albert’s
son, Alan Amatuzio, executive vice presi-
dent and chief operating officer. “We inves-
tigate each one comprehensively, examine
maintenance records, mileage, type of ser-
vice and repair invoices. We conduct
phone interviews and hire independent
expert investigators and engineers to
review failed parts and write an
Investigative Findings Report documenting
our results and send it to the claimant.
“Only in rare instances when we cannot
find an explanation for the problem, even
though the lubricant is not to blame, do
we accept a claim. Paid claims have
amounted to exactly two in the last two
years, which speaks volumes given the
quantity of oil we sell. It was later deter-
mined that both paid claims were ulti-
mately the result of manufacturing errors
on behalf of a major automotive OEM.”

A good article. Well worth reading if you would like to know more about the AMSOIL company.


I thought Amsoil had no claims in 38 years? Seems they paid for two in two years?

Back to Ford, or any car maker. You could run Synlube for 100,000 miles w/o a change and if you never develop a problem the warranty would remain intact. The only time the warranty would be void is IF there is an engine problem related to oil and the OM recommended intervals and required grade and rated oil was not used. So again follow the recommendations.

Out of warranty do what ever you like. I think we agree on that too.

AD
quote:
Originally posted by Nucleardawg:
Reading through everything, I see we agree to disagree, but without the trolls everything seems to be civil.

Hey mods if your reading this, I think this says loads about the resident trolls...

I will say Amsoil obviously sells a quality product. It's the way they market it that leaves me a bit sour...Though without a doubt it has been succesful for them.

I have a 01 Honda Shadow Sabre 1100. It is due for an oil change, the Amsoil product is available locally at a few dealerships...I will also look into the Redline offering as well. May have to see if any data is available, to compare the two...Will look for any VOA/UOA's to compare as well.


Dawg. I hope you don't consider me a resident troll after this, I was trying to keep a semi heated debate civil. And get a point across. I think we all pretty much understand each other now. Land ho!

AD
quote:
Originally posted by Nucleardawg:

I have a 01 Honda Shadow Sabre 1100. It is due for an oil change, the Amsoil product is available locally at a few dealerships...I will also look into the Redline offering as well. May have to see if any data is available, to compare the two...Will look for any VOA/UOA's to compare as well.
Here is a comparison of AMSOIL 10w30 motorcycle oil and Redline 10w30 motorcycle oil: https://www.amsoil.com/storefront/mct.aspx?zo=1181889 . I believe your bike specs a 10W40 JASO MA oil. My main concern with the Red Line motorcycle oils is that it only lists JASO MB, which is a lower wet clutch friction standard than the JASO MA you manual likely lists. This could cause clutch slippage. To learn more about JASO and other motorcycle oil testing: https://www.amsoil.com/lit/g2156.pdf .
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:

I thought Amsoil had no claims in 38 years? AD
Where did you get that idea? I said the oil never failed in 38 years.

quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1: Back to Ford, or any car maker. You could run Synlube for 100,000 miles w/o a change and if you never develop a problem the warranty would remain intact. The only time the warranty would be void is IF there is an engine problem related to oil and the OM recommended intervals and required grade and rated oil was not used. So again follow the recommendations.

Out of warranty do what ever you like. I think we agree on that too.

AD
You are getting closer. The vehicle manufacturer is not responsible for any oil failures, only part defects. If the oil failed, it doesn't matter what specs it met or didn't, or the oil change interval. The ball would go back into the oil company's court. That is why I think it is important to use an oil that has never failed in 38 years with a good warranty, whether you are in or out of the vehicle manufacturer's warranty.
In what you pasted it said they paid 2 claims in 2 years. What for? It had to be something they were liable for. Or do they pay claims for the hell of it? You think they'll ever make their legal woes available to the public? The way you defend them and hold them so very dear, would you state it on a forum? I dobut it.

Back to the topic, if an engine fails because of Amsoil being used for 35,000 miles under a warranty will the car maker pay? Short answer NO. Will Amsoil pay? Lets see.

You say with ref to claims: “We inves-
tigate each one comprehensively, examine
maintenance records, mileage, type of ser-
vice and repair invoices. We conduct
phone interviews and hire independent
expert investigators and engineers to
review failed parts and write an
Investigative Findings Report documenting
our results and send it to the claimant.

In English: They'll try their best not to pay out. As would any company, only difference is if I use an API cert oil and follow some simple directions, not extend the interval I have a darn good chance of being covered.


AD
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
In what you pasted it said they paid 2 claims in 2 years. What for? It had to be something they were liable for. Or do they pay claims for the hell of it? You think they'll ever make their legal woes available to the public? The way you defend them and hold them so very dear, would you state it on a forum? I dobut it.

I thought they explained it pretty well:
“Only in rare instances when we cannot
find an explanation for the problem, even
though the lubricant is not to blame, do
we accept a claim. Paid claims have
amounted to exactly two in the last two
years, which speaks volumes given the
quantity of oil we sell. It was later deter-
mined that both paid claims were ulti-
mately the result of manufacturing errors
on behalf of a major automotive OEM.”


quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:Back to the topic, if an engine fails because of Amsoil being used for 35,000 miles under a warranty will the car maker pay? Short answer NO. Will Amsoil pay? Lets see.
AMSOIL has not failed in 38 years, so your scenerio is very unlikely. If the oil failed, then AMSOIL would pay. If the oil did not fail and it is a manufacturing defect, then the automaker pays if it is under warranty. Not sure how many times I have to say this.

quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:You say with ref to claims: “We inves-
tigate each one comprehensively, examine
maintenance records, mileage, type of ser-
vice and repair invoices. We conduct
phone interviews and hire independent
expert investigators and engineers to
review failed parts and write an
Investigative Findings Report documenting
our results and send it to the claimant.

In English: They'll try their best not to pay out. As would any company, only difference is if I use an API cert oil and follow some simple directions, not extend the interval I have a darn good chance of being covered.
AMSOIL said it, not me. They stated it pretty clear in English already. They don't have to pay out if the oil did not fail. If the API certified oil failed and you did not extend the oil interval, the automaker still won't have to pay if it is the oils fault, only if the part was defective. It would go back to the oil company. Then it depends on their warranty.
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ADFD1:
In what you pasted it said they paid 2 claims in 2 years. What for? It had to be something they were liable for. Or do they pay claims for the hell of it? You think they'll ever make their legal woes available to the public? The way you defend them and hold them so very dear, would you state it on a forum? I dobut it.

I thought they explained it pretty well:
“Only in rare instances when we cannot
find an explanation for the problem, even
though the lubricant is not to blame, do
we accept a claim. Paid claims have
amounted to exactly two in the last two
years, which speaks volumes given the
quantity of oil we sell. It was later deter-
mined that both paid claims were ulti-
mately the result of manufacturing errors
on behalf of a major automotive OEM.”


quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:Back to the topic, if an engine fails because of Amsoil being used for 35,000 miles under a warranty will the car maker pay? Short answer NO. Will Amsoil pay? Lets see.
AMSOIL has not failed in 38 years, so your scenerio is very unlikely. If the oil failed, then AMSOIL would pay. If the oil did not fail and it is a manufacturing defect, then the automaker pays if it is under warranty. Not sure how many times I have to say this.

quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:You say with ref to claims: “We inves-
tigate each one comprehensively, examine
maintenance records, mileage, type of ser-
vice and repair invoices. We conduct
phone interviews and hire independent
expert investigators and engineers to
review failed parts and write an
Investigative Findings Report documenting
our results and send it to the claimant.

In English: They'll try their best not to pay out. As would any company, only difference is if I use an API cert oil and follow some simple directions, not extend the interval I have a darn good chance of being covered.
AMSOIL said it, not me. They stated it pretty clear in English already. They don't have to pay out if the oil did not fail. If the API certified oil failed and you did not extend the oil interval, the automaker still won't have to pay if it is the oils fault, only if the part was defective. It would go back to the oil company. Then it depends on their warranty.

Again, listen to what the automakers say:
Exceeding the OLM is not a warranty violation. Warranties only cover manufacturing defects, regardless of mileage. The oil would have to be proven to fail. Here is what GM has to say:
“If engine damage otherwise covered by warranty
was found to be unrelated to the engine lubricant,
then the consumer’s practice with regard to oil
change intervals would not be a relevant considera-
tion, and the warranty claim would be honored.”
Fuels and Lubricants Division,
General Motors Research Laboratories

And:
“The New Vehicle Warranty would not be void
simply because an owner failed to use proper
engine oils or did not perform maintenance at the
prescribed intervals. Warranty applicability is
contingent upon the cause of failure.”
Service Policies and Procedures Department,
General Motors Corporation “
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
quote:
Originally posted by Nucleardawg:
Reading through everything, I see we agree to disagree, but without the trolls everything seems to be civil.

Hey mods if your reading this, I think this says loads about the resident trolls...

I will say Amsoil obviously sells a quality product. It's the way they market it that leaves me a bit sour...Though without a doubt it has been succesful for them.

I have a 01 Honda Shadow Sabre 1100. It is due for an oil change, the Amsoil product is available locally at a few dealerships...I will also look into the Redline offering as well. May have to see if any data is available, to compare the two...Will look for any VOA/UOA's to compare as well.


Dawg. I hope you don't consider me a resident troll after this, I was trying to keep a semi heated debate civil. And get a point across. I think we all pretty much understand each other now. Land ho!

AD


You're not a resident troll Smile

Neither Am or RL are shady oils. Not everyone takes kindly to how the former is marketed, or how the latter is not a certed oil.

Shady, besides a certain "oil', is when you pull into a dealer to check out the 2002 Camaro SS in 2006, and the salesman sees your 1997 Camaro, and exclaims he wants to put it in the showroom.

Shady is when his supervisor not only won't budge on the price, but can't come up with one reason why you should pay it for a four year old out of production car when you could get a new Mustang for the same price.

No wonder GM needed a bailout. (BTW, that dealership was bought out a few weeks later.) Big Grin
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
I'll pass on the Russian Roulette, with 3 bullets in the gun. Thanks you've cleared up everything.

AD
You're welcome. With AMSOIL, it is like Rusion Roulette with no bullets in the gun. The vehicle manufacturer covers defective parts if under warranty, and AMSOIL covers oil failure (oil failure which has never happened in 38 years) in and out of warranty.
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
They paid two claims in 2 years, any clue what they were? Or is part of the payout agreement, no one talks about it?


AD
The article said "It was later deter-
mined that both paid claims were ulti-
mately the result of manufacturing errors
on behalf of a major automotive OEM.” I think the vehicle manufacturer reimbursed AMSOIL later. The oil has never failed in a mechanically sound engine.
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
I'm not taking sides, just showing what I've found.

To quote a man who has been closely involved with car makers and oil for decades.."use a lubricant of the correct viscosity that is specified by the Manufacturer and Listed by them as Approved – especially when under any form of Warranty"
Of course, out of warranty, use what you will and be happy. But you won't go wrong doing the above.

ps, better RL or Amsoil than swill...synlube any day.

BTW, Exceeding the OLM is a warranty violation regardless of what oil you use.



Trajan,I do recall several posts ago when I mentioned sludge and lawsuits.......you blamed the manufacturer for several reasons including incorrect service advice.

Now,you say to follow the MFG.......THE SAME ONE YOU BLAMED,BECAUSE YOU STATED THE MFG WAS GIVING BAD INFO.

So which is it now,follow the MFG,or not.

Or,only follow the MFG according to you,when it's convenient for your argument,as usual.

I never follow the MFG'S ADVICE,90% of the time.

REASONS WHY I DON'T FOLLOW THE MFG.

They say,don't change the brake fluid,wrong,I do,every two years or less.

They say,ATF IS FILL FOR LIFE,WRONG,I change/flush it,every 15-30k,and use synthetic.

They say,power steering is lifetime,wrong,I flush it.

They say,gear oil is lifetime,wrong,I change it.

I almost never listen,and I never have the problems most people have.

I have never replaced and engine,or done engine any engine work,or replaced a power steering system,power steering rack,brake calibers are original most of the time. Never overhauled a transmission(last/used/ buick traded at 177k,tranny seemed iffy,may have been the filter,my fault maybe).


They say use 5w-20 dino oil,wrong I use 5w-50 synthetic. Never any issues.

I never even go to the shop for any repairs.

I will continue using my swill lube too,as you like to call it.....you mentioned it AGAIN. IT AIN'T GOING AWAY MY FRIEND. HERE TO STAY!!!!

I don't care what anybody says, because........THE CROWD IS ALMOST ALWAYS WRONG,HISTORY PROVES THAT ONE!!
quote:
To quote a man who has been closely involved with car makers and oil for decades.."use a lubricant of the correct viscosity that is specified by the Manufacturer and Listed by them as Approved – especially when under any form of Warranty"
Of course, out of warranty, use what you will and be happy. But you won't go wrong doing the above.



My point again........the above statement is not totally gospel.

Lots of people have 300k on their cars because they dropped lots of 'dough' to get there.

I am not talking about what some people may or may not achieve. I am talking the average scenario. My aunt smoked for 50 years,and lived to be 90,so smoking is ok,using your logic.

What is your real point?
All boils down to a question sonny.

Who has the credibility and the respect that goes with it?

1: Doug Hillary?

OR

2: miroslav kefurt and his minions?

It isn't #2. Not even in the same galaxy.

This was fun to read. And so on target.
http://www.ripoffreport.com/li...ptain-kirk-ff6ca.htm

Oh, and by the way. Again, those lawsuits were not about the oil. They were about faulty engines.

None of them, not one, were because of mfg approved and recommended oil.

Even your own links failed to support your oft repeated and ever wrong error.
Last edited by trajan
This topic is not about synlube. Why do YOU keep bringing it up!

I do use synlube. That will not stop,ever,I have no reason to change.

My other favorite brand of oil happens to be Amsoil. Amsoil sales are up 4 fold in the last 4 years....that is very impressive and speaks volumes. Redline is probably up too. Good for them!

How often are you changing the redline oil,what are your costs.
quote:
This is a blackstone lab report on the 0w-30 Amsoil,that ADF1 calls kool aid.

http://forums.evolutionm.net/s...w-after-6200-mi.html


I'm not sure what makes this oil analysis so special. Show us a trend over time, not a snapshot in time. Did the oil viscosity continue on the low side? Did that cause wear metals to trend up? How can Blackstone recommend pushing the drain interval out to 7500 miles? Based on their UOA the oil viscosity dropped from 10.3 cSt@100C (AMSOIL data sheet) to 8.32 cSt@100C (Blackstone results), also the flashpoint dropped from 446F to 380F. If it was me, I would like to know why that was happening before I tried going further on an oil change.
Good observations John. These blanket statements made about running ASM for 35,000 miles, or even half that for severe service can spell disaster. Not to start beating a dead horse again but I wouldn't risk my engine based on claims Amsoil makes for how long their oil can be used.

You have to be certain the engine is in perfect running order, the conditions are perfect, and that nothing changes with the engine during that long interval. Too many things can go wrong.


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