Interesting Trajan. I'll take data, from a reputable company, the biggest oil company in the world, and billions of miles of real world day in day out testing, over hype about a little to unknown product on a message board any day. Especially when big money invested in a vehicle is on the line.
M1 0W40 is one of the best oils Mobil makes, tons of data to back that up. The choice the way I see it is pretty easy. But then you do have risk takers, to each his own I guess.
AD
Read our primer articles on High Mileage Oil, Synthetic Oil and Kinematic Viscosity
quote:Originally posted by ADFD1:
Interesting Trajan. I'll take data, from a reputable company, the biggest oil company in the world, and billions of miles of real world day in day out testing, over hype about a little to unknown product on a message board any day. Especially when big money invested in a vehicle is on the line.
M1 0W40 is one of the best oils Mobil makes, tons of data to back that up. The choice the way I see it is pretty easy. But then you do have risk takers, to each his own I guess.
AD
This is quoted from a yahoo thread,AD.........
"As a mechanic, the engines I see the most problems with are the ones that the customer stretch the oil changes to 10,000 to 15,000 miles. I've seen numerous cars with worn or stretched timing chains, sticking camshaft actuators, stuck piston rings, collapsed lifters and a plethora of other problems.
I don't care what kind of oil you use, it cannot go 10,000 miles! Period! I've seen a new vehicle with 26,000 miles that needed new piston rings because the FIRST oil change was done at 12,000 and the reason the car came into the shop at 20,000 miles was the engine wouldn't run because the SYNTHETIC Mobile One engine oil was the consistancy of glue and the camshaft actuators was sticking causing in engine misfire!
I'm not saying 3,000 like clockwork but I would recommend by at least by 5,000 miles. Unless you want to pay for one of those repairs! They're not as cheap as an oil change!"
------------------------------------------
By the way-----there's plenty more where that came from......for obvious reasons(Group III is not really synthetic and will sludge). That's why I don't use it!!!
Hey AD----maybe your uncle could toss in a little of the 'red stuff' to clean up the above mess made by your so-called ..."safe oil".
Just a reminder..........I haven't used any flushes/solvents/chemicals-etc,etc.. in over a decade!----NO NEED TOO!
Kirk- I told Pablo I'd stand down, others kept their word so I'll keep mine. If you'd like start another thread.
AD
AD
quote:Originally posted by ADFD1:
Kirk- I told Pablo I'd stand down, others kept their word so I'll keep mine. If you'd like start another thread.
AD
This is another thread. Your promise was on the other thread where people discuss what sounds like they're doing their laundry---you know,rinses and such!
quote:Originally posted by ADFD1:
Interesting Trajan. I'll take data, from a reputable company, the biggest oil company in the world, and billions of miles of real world day in day out testing, over hype about a little to unknown product on a message board any day. Especially when big money invested in a vehicle is on the line.
M1 0W40 is one of the best oils Mobil makes, tons of data to back that up. The choice the way I see it is pretty easy. But then you do have risk takers, to each his own I guess.
AD
We know the specs for the 0w-40. Or any other M1 oil. Other oil companies publish their oil specs, so it's a simple matter to compare them side by side.
There was, last I looked, no such thing for this synlube on its site. Nothing but unproven claims. VOAs have shown it doesn't even meet its own claimed weight.
I'm not sure it, (the 0w-40), is the best Euro oil. But you don't have to wait for someone to make a batch in the garage, and hope it is a 0w-40.
quote:Originally posted by Trajan:
Anecdotes are no subsitute for data. No matter how hard you try to make it so.
Wrong. Long-term personal experience with products mean more than data, which is very often manipulated to one's point of view. Several years of personal use with a product is DATA.
quote:Originally posted by Trajan:
But all we get, from claims that I wrecked a non exsistent thread to conventional oil is the cause of sludge, is just that. Claims. Backed by nothing more than anecdotes.
Okay, Trajan. How about giving us your DATA on that neighbour of yours whose engine was ruined using Synlube?
Where is that DATA? Show us all of that DATA and we will believe you. Where is that neighbour and his engine you claim exists?
If you don't produce that DATA, we can rightfully conclude that you are a LIAR.
Well?
quote:Originally posted by Captain Kirk:quote:Originally posted by ADFD1:
Kirk- I told Pablo I'd stand down, others kept their word so I'll keep mine. If you'd like start another thread.
AD
This is another thread. Your promise was on the other thread where people discuss what sounds like they're doing their laundry---you know,rinses and such!
You got me there Kirk
I'll try and not ruffle any feathers. Your little snip tells me that those engines were neglected, and that extended drains are not for everyone, to quote a friend. The mechanic made it pretty clear IMO.You said: This is quoted from a yahoo thread,AD.........
"As a mechanic, the engines I see the most problems with are the ones that the customer stretch the oil changes to 10,000 to 15,000 miles. I've seen numerous cars with worn or stretched timing chains, sticking camshaft actuators, stuck piston rings, collapsed lifters and a plethora of other problems.
Here's what I think:
I call that neglect, neglect causes problems. If you want to venture into extended drains get a UOA halfway through or where you would normally change the oil and see if it can go further. That could eliminate lots of problems I'd think!
As far as my uncle and dad, they are mechanics by trade, my uncle being the better of the two, sorry dad. They've used MMO countless times on cars that came to them suffering from neglect and saw what MMO did and know what it can do.
MMO works well cleaning up neglect's mess, and does a good job at freeing sticking lifters. No need for me to search for data to back it up, I have two family members that have done it, as well as a friend who is a respected machinist. Then lots of friends and tons of praise on Bitog, need I say more?
AD
quote:Originally posted by ADFD1:
You got me there Kirk
You said: This is quoted from a yahoo thread,AD.........
"As a mechanic, the engines I see the most problems with are the ones that the customer stretch the oil changes to 10,000 to 15,000 miles. I've seen numerous cars with worn or stretched timing chains, sticking camshaft actuators, stuck piston rings, collapsed lifters and a plethora of other problems.
Here's what I think:
I call that neglect, neglect causes problems. If you want to venture into extended drains get a UOA halfway through or where you would normally change the oil and see if it can go further. That could eliminate lots of problems I'd think!
As far as my uncle and dad, they are mechanics by trade, my uncle being the better of the two, sorry dad. They've used MMO countless times on cars that came to them suffering from neglect and saw what MMO did and know what it can do.
MMO works well cleaning up neglect's mess, and does a good job at freeing sticking lifters. No need for me to search for data to back it up, I have two family members that have done it, as well as a friend who is a respected machinist. Then lots of friends and tons of praise on Bitog, need I say more?
AD
quote:Well then, with all that MMO flooding/flushing the market place according to you,AD------the world is apparently all sludged up thanks to low quality motor oil in the market place......sure AD,I know the drill,they all abused their cars would be your typical line----never the oils fault! However,I'm Not gonna buy it!The oil must get all/most of the blame,because that's where all the sludge comes from in the first place. By definition,I am abusing my cars,yet I have no sludge!
Ad,the snip I quoted clearly shows the engine was not neglected in fact. You left a very important segment of info out.
So,Here it is....
"I've seen a new vehicle with 26,000 miles that needed new piston rings because the FIRST oil change was done at 12,000 and the reason the car came into the shop at 20,000 miles was the engine wouldn't run because the SYNTHETIC Mobile One engine oil was the consistancy of glue and the camshaft actuators was sticking causing in engine misfire! "
THAT'S NOT NEGLECT...THAT'S INFERIOR OIL SLUDGING UP THE ENGINE IN SHORT ORDER.............AS USUAL
AD,I have seen you state the oil companies have spent billions on research----SO THEY MUST KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING-wright?....... WRONG!!! THINK AGAIN! I ALWAYS DO!
In reality..... the oil companies have spent the majority of money/research on where to find--- new oil,(TOO MAKE MORE-BIG MONEY)not how to make truly better motor oil,or even better fuel,never mind locating and safely drilling in deep wells like in the gulf for example. We know how that turned out!
The really big money being spent now days on R&D for engine technology is being spent by the automakers themselves. What is now needed would be high tech,mainstream-store/shop bought lubricant to match the high tech engines on the market and the environmental demands for extended oil changes......4k miles not withstanding other than being a joke perhaps,and waaayy old school and still in the dark ages!
For now,there exists only one way to meet the above criteria--------you know what that is!!
I never was an "old school" kinda guy.......never will be!
Kirk What we have here are different opinions. I see neglect you see bad oil, Mobil 1 0W40 is one of the best oils made by Mobil, who BTW is the largest oil company in the world, so I'd say they're doing something right!
I see neglect, along with the guy who wrote the article! Had they done Normal OCI's and followed directions they would have been fine, they didn't, that is neglect. Had they visited a court room to seek $$$ for their woes I'm guessing a judge would ask to see what the mfg recommends. Then consult an expert or (2), then tell them neglect as he sends them packing tail between their legs. Now if a UOA confirmed that extending the drain was possible things might be different in that court house. Here is where some good data might just help. Maybe?
4 K OCI's might be a joke, in some applications its not. Toyota sludgers come to mind. Other cars can easily double it perhaps (3x) it, it depends on the engine, and the conditions it is driven under. One size doesn't fit all that is obvious, and there are a few blown engine threads popping up that prove it.
Truth is there aren't enough people other than yourself and a few of your friends running Synlube to convince me and many others, no compelling evidence other than you and your buddy told us so. So until then good luck with the pitch. Kindly note the non-hostile tone, you wanted a discussion, here we have one! Catch u later.
AD
I see neglect, along with the guy who wrote the article! Had they done Normal OCI's and followed directions they would have been fine, they didn't, that is neglect. Had they visited a court room to seek $$$ for their woes I'm guessing a judge would ask to see what the mfg recommends. Then consult an expert or (2), then tell them neglect as he sends them packing tail between their legs. Now if a UOA confirmed that extending the drain was possible things might be different in that court house. Here is where some good data might just help. Maybe?
4 K OCI's might be a joke, in some applications its not. Toyota sludgers come to mind. Other cars can easily double it perhaps (3x) it, it depends on the engine, and the conditions it is driven under. One size doesn't fit all that is obvious, and there are a few blown engine threads popping up that prove it.
Truth is there aren't enough people other than yourself and a few of your friends running Synlube to convince me and many others, no compelling evidence other than you and your buddy told us so. So until then good luck with the pitch. Kindly note the non-hostile tone, you wanted a discussion, here we have one! Catch u later.
AD
What little data there is for this synlube, such as the VOA and the UOA, shows that it isn't worth the money.
Ad,quotes
Ad,I have been only giving proven facts,not opinions. You are the opinion man,not me!
Ad,everyone on the planet is not neglecting their cars as you would have us believe. The facts clearly show that much of the neglect,is the motor oil chemistry falling short. That is on big oil---neglecting the call for better oil chemistry. That is 'starting' to change.
4k OCI'S is very old school. Oil chemistry technology that has now been available for some time proves it and puts 4k oci's....TO SHAME---when it's actually used of course!
quote:Kirk What we have here are different opinions.
Ad,I have been only giving proven facts,not opinions. You are the opinion man,not me!
quote:I see neglect,
Ad,everyone on the planet is not neglecting their cars as you would have us believe. The facts clearly show that much of the neglect,is the motor oil chemistry falling short. That is on big oil---neglecting the call for better oil chemistry. That is 'starting' to change.
quote:4 K OCI's might be a joke, in some applications its not.
4k OCI'S is very old school. Oil chemistry technology that has now been available for some time proves it and puts 4k oci's....TO SHAME---when it's actually used of course!
Kirk the only fact I see in what you posted was the author claimed that extended drains were the cause of problems, at least in the article.
Yes 4 K oci are old school, but in certain applications they are recommended, and needed, look at some of the Subie's out there and their suggested oci.
Synthetic oils have benefits no argument there, but even Amsoil, an oil darling is rethinking some of their intervals because people are having problems. [AMSOIL GUYS PLEASE READ IN CERTAIN APPLICATIONS]. So once again extended drains are not one size fits all, are not for everyone, should be backed up with oil testing, and not done blindly. Why is that so hard to understand? A very smart man told me run your oil your normal, OCI, get a UOA with TBN, stretch it based on that. There's data if that's what you want, and will eliminate guessing, and blind faith.
The article you posted proves that. Oil chemistry is evolving, but a sane maint' program is why people can log 500,000 or more miles.
Neglect is what keeps products like MMO, Kreen and others selling. The money is big in fixing neglected cars.
AD
Yes 4 K oci are old school, but in certain applications they are recommended, and needed, look at some of the Subie's out there and their suggested oci.
Synthetic oils have benefits no argument there, but even Amsoil, an oil darling is rethinking some of their intervals because people are having problems. [AMSOIL GUYS PLEASE READ IN CERTAIN APPLICATIONS]. So once again extended drains are not one size fits all, are not for everyone, should be backed up with oil testing, and not done blindly. Why is that so hard to understand? A very smart man told me run your oil your normal, OCI, get a UOA with TBN, stretch it based on that. There's data if that's what you want, and will eliminate guessing, and blind faith.
The article you posted proves that. Oil chemistry is evolving, but a sane maint' program is why people can log 500,000 or more miles.
Neglect is what keeps products like MMO, Kreen and others selling. The money is big in fixing neglected cars.
AD
As an aside, I hear that the new Ford engines to be installed in the F150s for 2011 will have an OCI of 10 000 miles, or 16 000 kms.
AD,
Neglect is relative to the life expectancy of the functional fluids and their respective change intervals.
Most American motorists don't adhere to the level of maintenance seen on these boards, and Auto-makers have also been aware of this for some time now.
Motorist simply can't be bothered with flushing all the functional fluids on a regular basis,therefore various fluids are now relative 'lifetime'.
Neglect is the norm now days,therefore lifetime fluids are needed to nullify what you might call neglect. Remember,by conventional wisdom and or/definition, I am neglecting my cars in a very big way,just not paying the conventional consequences like other do---just the opposite.
Cars need to be maintenance free-and as such,maintenance free fluids need to be used to adhere to this concept. After all,we now 'neglect' our car batteries for example by never having to check them the way they once were 30 years ago or longer---thanks to being maintenance free!
Lifetime fluids are available in the market place, and many are using them such as myself with excellent results. Fluids such as motor oil,grease,AFT,Brake fluid,coolant,etc, are chemically engineered to outlast the car in some cases.
The only issue why these fluids are not mainstream is strictly politics,and greed. Even our roads can be built to outlast our cars--like in Europe where they use 30-40 year road composites. Ever drive in the East coast/NJ....it's pothole city thanks to cheap materials being used because the money lined someones pocket instead of the road surface!! Sure,I know-- it's the trucks and bad weather excuse... that might fly for some---not me!
quote:The money is big in fixing neglected cars.
Neglect is relative to the life expectancy of the functional fluids and their respective change intervals.
Most American motorists don't adhere to the level of maintenance seen on these boards, and Auto-makers have also been aware of this for some time now.
Motorist simply can't be bothered with flushing all the functional fluids on a regular basis,therefore various fluids are now relative 'lifetime'.
Neglect is the norm now days,therefore lifetime fluids are needed to nullify what you might call neglect. Remember,by conventional wisdom and or/definition, I am neglecting my cars in a very big way,just not paying the conventional consequences like other do---just the opposite.
Cars need to be maintenance free-and as such,maintenance free fluids need to be used to adhere to this concept. After all,we now 'neglect' our car batteries for example by never having to check them the way they once were 30 years ago or longer---thanks to being maintenance free!
Lifetime fluids are available in the market place, and many are using them such as myself with excellent results. Fluids such as motor oil,grease,AFT,Brake fluid,coolant,etc, are chemically engineered to outlast the car in some cases.
The only issue why these fluids are not mainstream is strictly politics,and greed. Even our roads can be built to outlast our cars--like in Europe where they use 30-40 year road composites. Ever drive in the East coast/NJ....it's pothole city thanks to cheap materials being used because the money lined someones pocket instead of the road surface!! Sure,I know-- it's the trucks and bad weather excuse... that might fly for some---not me!
Kirk I agree, however until a good proven LT fluid comes along from a legit company with a proven track record I'll stick to my maint program.
Funny story, I have a Shipmate with a BMW that has a tranny that is so called filled for life. With no real way for the DIY guy to even check it. His tranny died, due to the fluid failing, the level of the fluid was correct, the fluid burnt, and dirty. Less than 100K on the car. So much for LT fluids. He babies this thing too. We could call it neglect, he didn't even hit 100K on a filled for live tranny. Short life I guess since no one can really define life. Great way out for a good legal team I guess.
My GF's Jeep has no dipstick and the OM IIRC suggests changing the Trans fluid at 100K miles. No way, 30,000 miles I'll have the fluid serviced, not worth the risk.
OTOH my dad told me of a friend he had that changed his O/F once a year, and checked his oil once a month on a GMC car. In over 100,000 miles he never changed M1 oil. Just filters and top ups. The car smoked but ran. We could say he had LT fluid in it because he got lucky and it worked. I bet if he changed his oil when he was supposed to the engine would have been cleaner and in better shape. Remember the filter traps, dirt, it can't replace spent TBN, remove the damage fuel dilution causes to oil, or moisture from short trips. Lets not forget dirt since combustion in an engine is a dirty process. The only way to fix that is to get that dirty oil out!
Yes I drove in NJ, I was born and raised in Long Island, NY. Ever drive into NYC via Northern Blvd, the Grand Central Pwky, or Queens Blvd? how about into Rosedale, or Cambia Hts? There were pot holes going into NYC that would swallow a car. It rains a lot in WA but the roads are very good.
AD
Funny story, I have a Shipmate with a BMW that has a tranny that is so called filled for life. With no real way for the DIY guy to even check it. His tranny died, due to the fluid failing, the level of the fluid was correct, the fluid burnt, and dirty. Less than 100K on the car. So much for LT fluids. He babies this thing too. We could call it neglect, he didn't even hit 100K on a filled for live tranny. Short life I guess since no one can really define life. Great way out for a good legal team I guess.
My GF's Jeep has no dipstick and the OM IIRC suggests changing the Trans fluid at 100K miles. No way, 30,000 miles I'll have the fluid serviced, not worth the risk.
OTOH my dad told me of a friend he had that changed his O/F once a year, and checked his oil once a month on a GMC car. In over 100,000 miles he never changed M1 oil. Just filters and top ups. The car smoked but ran. We could say he had LT fluid in it because he got lucky and it worked. I bet if he changed his oil when he was supposed to the engine would have been cleaner and in better shape. Remember the filter traps, dirt, it can't replace spent TBN, remove the damage fuel dilution causes to oil, or moisture from short trips. Lets not forget dirt since combustion in an engine is a dirty process. The only way to fix that is to get that dirty oil out!
Yes I drove in NJ, I was born and raised in Long Island, NY. Ever drive into NYC via Northern Blvd, the Grand Central Pwky, or Queens Blvd? how about into Rosedale, or Cambia Hts? There were pot holes going into NYC that would swallow a car. It rains a lot in WA but the roads are very good.
AD
Very well said AD. BTW, that LT fluid in the BMW. It lasted the life of the tranny......
Seriously though. It's idiotic to not change oils. All that contamination crusing through the engine and drive train.
Seriously though. It's idiotic to not change oils. All that contamination crusing through the engine and drive train.
quote:Originally posted by Trajan:
Very well said AD. BTW, that LT fluid in the BMW. It lasted the life of the tranny......
Seriously though. It's idiotic to not change oils. All that contamination crusing through the engine and drive train.
Well said about that BMW trans, had it crapped out at 30K that would have been its life. Fluids need to be changed, they are getting better so are filters. But I see more and more people reporting issues with these extended drain oils and filters, they are slowly popping up. Which brings me back to,"extended drains aren't for everyone". Ease into them and get UOA to back them up. Then use caution because if the lab screws up you could be in trouble anyway.
AD
Can't argue there. Extended drains are not for everyone.
quote:Originally posted by Trajan:
Can't argue there. Extended drains are not for everyone.
Extended drains are not a matter of personal preference,they are a matter of technological breakthroughs and economic/environmental mandates.
Motor oil has been proven to actually lube better with use vs brand new lube.
The only time I would agree with frequent oil changes is when there are issues such as a worn/tired used engine that kills the oil due to a study diet of low grade lubes.
Other than the above issue......extended oil changes are no problem with the right oil chemistry on a sound engine/emission/coolant and fuel delivery system......preferably when new/almost new with no pre-existing wear or sludge from previous inferior lubes.
I have several co-workers who did the 3k oil change and lost an engine due to a blown head gasket or defective injector subsequently wiping the engine out in short order(heavy knocking,or worse--hydrolocking)......NO ONE IS TOTALLY IMMUNE TO CATASTROPHIC FAILURE---INCLUDING COLLISIONS AND THEFT.
Performing UOA is not practical for the average motorist and simply isn't going to happen unless the on board systems analyze the oil on the fly---which may become mainstream one day for all the functional lubes.......don't hold your breath just yet for that one.
For now,the lifetime/extended life fluids are proving themselves to be the practical economic choice overall for most motorists. I know of people for example who never change their OEM gear lubes or ATF,and have no issues even at 150k...granted the ATF looks very bad on the stick.