Read our primer articles on High Mileage Oil and Kinematic Viscosity

quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
Thanks my question is if a 20 grade oil is spec'd and used and the engine fails because the oil was too "thin" "CAFE" as you said who eats the repair? Not in Kathy's case just a general question?

AD


If ford,or some other MFG determines the oil is too thin and is leading to damage,then ford would be on the Hook. However,they will try to weasel out,if the consumer gives them an out.

I can't believe ford has spec'd 5w-20 for a V-10......as if a 5-30 would harm fuel economy?

The mustang V-8 in some cases is spec'd for 5w-50(I believe synthetic only),so what gives with the V-10?

I would think on long hard hot runs with the V-10 running 5w-20, the oil would thin out too much and lose pressure at certain locations in the V-10 engine without triggering the oil pressure sending unit,and wipe out a bearing or more.

There apparently have been many issues with this engine all over the net,and lots of warranty work,haven't really researched the fine details though.

I would run 5w-30 at least,and use only synthetic.

5w-50 for the stang is here.

http://webcache.googleusercont...=us&client=firefox-a


HAPPY FOURTH OF JULY TO ALL......
I would think a good car maker like Ford would have done lots of testing, I mean a ton of it. If the oil thinned out of grade causing damage, how could the engine be at fault? Assuming in my example there was no fuel dilution. I'd think the oil company would be at fault. Like it or not I think thin is in, and in the not so distant future you'll see 0w10, and people saying they'll use 0W20 in its place because 0W10 is too thin?

Happy 4th to all,
AD
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:
Trajan said.........

[QUOTE]If I were Kathy,I would have drawn an oil sample first,and never have told ford the exact OCI. She did get off the hook 80% though in the end.

Hey Captain, is it possible that "Cathy Covington" got screwed by the "stealership" and paid the big bucks, is because she's a female? Naaa... Wink
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:

Isn't it amazing the attitude of those 'ASE' certified mechanics. Some(not all),think they are 'Gods' once they get certified.

You are right-on about many mechanics. I've got one living next door who never fails to mention how clever he is when he replaces a defective/warn part in his driveway for peanuts when we, their customers, pay out hundred of green backs. These guys hate spending money on their rides but expect us to pay through the nose. They must be laughing their collective guts out while our cars are on the hoist as they fix our rides for hundreds if not thousands of dollars. It's the Service Departments that keep stealerships from going TU, not the showrooms.
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
Thanks my question is if a 20 grade oil is spec'd and used and the engine fails because the oil was too "thin" "CAFE" as you said who eats the repair? Not in Kathy's case just a general question?

AD


If ford,or some other MFG determines the oil is too thin and is leading to damage,then ford would be on the Hook. However,they will try to weasel out,if the consumer gives them an out.

I can't believe ford has spec'd 5w-20 for a V-10......as if a 5-30 would harm fuel economy?

The mustang V-8 in some cases is spec'd for 5w-50(I believe synthetic only),so what gives with the V-10?

I would think on long hard hot runs with the V-10 running 5w-20, the oil would thin out too much and lose pressure at certain locations in the V-10 engine without triggering the oil pressure sending unit,and wipe out a bearing or more.

There apparently have been many issues with this engine all over the net,and lots of warranty work,haven't really researched the fine details though.

I would run 5w-30 at least,and use only synthetic.

5w-50 for the stang is here.

http://webcache.googleusercont...=us&client=firefox-a


HAPPY FOURTH OF JULY TO ALL......

The v-10 has a different crankshaft design from the v-8s. It uses a split throw on the rod journals for even firing(bad idea)and is drilled differently for rod bearing oiling. A fully groved main bearing would provide a 100% increase in oil volume to the rod bearing,but they dont use one.They could do alot better. There are alot of racers using 0-20 and producing over 1000 horse power with the 4 valve v8 without bearing problems. Most would probably like to use heavier oil but pressure to the valve train is not regulated.This will cause the hydraulic cam followers to pump up in the early 4 valve heads and hold the valve open if thick oil is used. That would be bad. Thin oil bleeds off faster and allows this engine to rev to over 9000 rpm,without bearing problems. Later high performance modular 4 valve engines use a miniature hydraulic cam follower with a higher bleed rate that allows heavier oil to be used. They spec 5w-50 in that engine.I dont know if the bearing clearance have changed for the supercharged engines , but all modular ford are a select bearing fit engine,meaning they fit each engine with the exact size bearing required to get the clearances perfect. 5w-40 full synthetic would be my choice for A motorhome with a v-10.
quote:
Originally posted by BKL98MK8LSC:
The v-10 has a different crankshaft design from the v-8s. It uses a split throw on the rod journals for even firing(bad idea)and is drilled differently for rod bearing oiling. A fully groved main bearing would provide a 100% increase in oil volume to the rod bearing,but they dont use one.They could do alot better. There are alot of racers using 0-20 and producing over 1000 horse power with the 4 valve v8 without bearing problems. Most would probably like to use heavier oil but pressure to the valve train is not regulated.This will cause the hydraulic cam followers to pump up in the early 4 valve heads and hold the valve open if thick oil is used. That would be bad. Thin oil bleeds off faster and allows this engine to rev to over 9000 rpm,without bearing problems. Later high performance modular 4 valve engines use a miniature hydraulic cam follower with a higher bleed rate that allows heavier oil to be used. They spec 5w-50 in that engine.I dont know if the bearing clearance have changed for the supercharged engines , but all modular ford are a select bearing fit engine,meaning they fit each engine with the exact size bearing required to get the clearances perfect. 5w-40 full synthetic would be my choice for A motorhome with a v-10.


Bk,Thanks for all the Great tech info about the ford v-10 engine.

I agree with the 5w-40 choice(devlac?) in a motorhome,and I doubt Kathy,or anyone else would have ever revved the engine to 9k causing any issues.
I agree they will never see racing RPMs. My car wont either. But what they will do is load their motorhome up with every thing they can pack and then maybe hook a small car/boat or what ever to the back and head out. When they get to the hills we have around the area I live in nor cal they will plant their foot on the floor and hold it there. The highways around here are 6% at least and some are 10%. The pull can last for an hour depending on your destination. This is where they build heat,heat and more heat.Its 100 plus in the summer and depending on the direction you are traveling ,there can be a prevailing tail wind stealing radiator efficiency.Brutal conditions and still some wont let up.The lucky ones boil over the radiator stop get towed what or ever. Some just burn flat to the earth right where they stop. I used to pass 1 or 2 per week in the summer when I was hauling lumber out of southern oregon into northern california. Certainly not all ford v-10s but you can see how even with very few miles these things take a real ass kicking.
Here is a picture of A motor on a test stand doing WOT testing.note the exaust manifolds. Ive actually seen this on an old gas powered dump truck behind the front tire going down the road in morning sunlight. brutal conditions.
http://image.mustang50magazine...exhaust_manifold.jpg
quote:
Originally posted by BKL98MK8LSC:
I have read that the base oil is what affects heat carrying capacity. I dont know which is better or for what reasons though. The light oils pump more efficiently and superior volume may carry away more heat. I have no way to test this so its guessing. The 5.0 engine in the picture is using 5w-20! The testing procedure detailed in this link is tuff. I am to stubborn to believe that 5w-20 protects BETTER than a heavier oil. But it does pass their tests. http://www.mustang50magazine.c...te_engine/index.html
If 5W20 was in fact used in that engine in the picture, I have no reason to think otherwise. I'd say it can handle heat, and quite well at that. Bottom line is stick to what is spec'd for the engine, if they give choices match the oil to the climate and the job planned for the engine.

AD
Adf1 said...
No point in second guessing the car maker. CAFE or not,

Trajan said....
I wouldn't second guess them.

Adf1...
Bottom line is stick to what is spec'd for the engine,

-----------------------------------------------
I think it is very appropriate to "second guess" the manufacturer. Just look at all the recalls and service bulletins out there, all the oil/sludge/wear issues with engines,and also power-train issues,etc.

The manufactures can no longer afford to do all the R&D like years ago,they are now going broke! Much of it is now done using computers/virtual programs,and the rest is done using the motorists as guinea pigs. The mentality is, build the car,sell and deliver it to the masses,and make corrections we missed in the lab....hence all the issues in the field with bulletins/recalls.

The 5w-20 motor oils is relatively a new thing and the automakers are still on a learning curve. My 2009 v6 mustang calls for 5w-30. My 2008 Jeep "recommends" 5w-20,but the Allpar site recommends 5w-30,stating the oil pump is really spec'd for 5w-30. Allpar also lists much shorter maintenance intervals across the board than what the owners manual states. The owners manual states for example,change the transfer case every 60-120K,while allpar states every 30k,and the MFG/TECH-expert for the unit itself...states every year or 15k because the unit is hard on the lube.....go figure!

The 5w-20 is usually a mineral oil with the use of of a cellulose oil filter. How could a mineral oil 5w-20 function better than a true synthetic 5w-30, or a 0w-30 for winter use using a premium synthetic/micro-glass oil filter? What does 5w-20/mineral oil do at 255 F+, verses 5w-30 100% synthetic regarding oil pressure in critical areas of the engine.

Remember........True 100% synthetic oil is a better "heat transfer agent" than mineral oil,meaning it cools better! I recall M1 "claimed" years ago(100% PAO) that their 15w-50 flowed at least as well as a 5w-30 mineral,but protected better than a mineral 20w-50.

Running a car on a Dyno is a great start,but real world conditions always prove to be much harder on the engine,and the oil. Repeated,Cold/dry starts in the frigid winter that cause negative tolerance/clearance in the piston to cylinder area,incomplete warm ups,condensation,gritty oil,bad fuel,etc,all have shown to be very hard on an engine/oil.


When I start seeing service bulletins that state........"do not use anything other than 5w-20"........only then will I listen,somewhat! I know of people who are using 0w-30 in the HEMI engine that "mandates" 5w-20,and the 0w-30 100% synthetic is working perfect in the Hemi engine,as just one example that even mandates are not totally accurate!

Synthetic article reads.....

http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/sythoil.htm

5w-20 vs 30.........quote....

"5W-20 is used PURELY for gas milage for Ford. The Ford Explorer calls for 5w-20 yet the Mountaineer that uses the EXACT same motor, all parts are interchangable and has the same engine code, calls for 5w-30. My S10 uses 5w-30 or 10w-30 I've gone to amsoil15W-40 desiel oil with out a problem. The reason for doing so was for higher oil pressure during cold days."
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:
5w-20 vs 30.........quote....

"5W-20 is used PURELY for gas milage for Ford. The Ford Explorer calls for 5w-20 yet the Mountaineer that uses the EXACT same motor, all parts are interchangable and has the same engine code, calls for 5w-30. My S10 uses 5w-30 or 10w-30 I've gone to amsoil15W-40 desiel oil with out a problem. The reason for doing so was for higher oil pressure during cold days."


AFAIK Ford doesn't recommend 5W20 in their 4.0L Explorer, it was one of the engines not back spec'd from 5W30 to 5W20 because of the oil pump the engine uses.

Ford as extensively tested 5W20 in desert heat towing, then there are several fleets across the USA using 5W20 with great results. This topic has been beaten to death all over the internet. This is turning into the classic which is better Ford or Chevy debates.

5W20 has been in use for several years now and many Ford products have logged over 250,000-300,000 miles without issue.

I would use it in an application that calls for it, having said that if my engine calls for 5W30 I would not use 5W20.

AD
quote:
Originally posted by Miro Kefurt:
BMW Warranty (cars)

"48/50,000" meaning that coverage lasts either 48 months from the initial purchase or until the vehicle has 50,000 miles, whichever comes first."

Someone apparently does not know how long 48 months is, nor that 2004 MY would be made in 2003 and sold at the latest in early 2004, thus no longer under warranty even if it was under the 50,000 miles limit!


BTW, 1: A warranty on a new car starts the countdown the day you drive it off the lot.

2: My car has a build date of 6/04. (on driver side door sill) So much for your "facts" The basic warranty ended 7/23/08. Four years after it was driven off the lot. Mine ends 7/23/10. Or would of if I didn't hit 100K first.

(I dug out the original vehicle history report about 10 minutes ago. It includes things like who bought it. The options. Date it was bought.)
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
quote:


It is hard to reconcile the claim that you use synlube when your own link says: "check your owner's manual and insist on the correct weight of quality oil."


--------------------------------------------


I do check/read my owners manual(what a joke-at times),and I also read the shop repair manual(differs from the owners manual-more trustworthy),and I don't "insist" on anything,I simply do what I know is best,and install what I want. I do the research and due diligence!

Those who have no clue,or confidence, are the ones who should have their vehicles serviced exclusively by the dealer/professional(what the link I posted infers).........perhaps Trajan,you are in that category.........so be it!

The link I posted is not, "my own link",as you imply,it's just a link I posted showing an article written by someone else(Schleeter)that discusses the issues of sludge, why it exists,what causes it,and how synthetic oil prevents it! The owners manual mentioned in the link was not what the article was really about,it was about sludge,and the benefits of SYNTHETIC OIL.

Funny thing.............the mention of the owners manual was only if you're on a budget...

"On any vehicle, if you can't afford synthetic oil, check your owner's manual and insist on the correct weight of quality oil. "



However,if you're not on a budget then........

# Make sure the shop that services your car uses the highest quality oil (brand name, full synthetic). Synthetic oil adds only $16.00 to $30.00 to an oil change. Read why synthetic prevents sludge build-up>
# Ask for a high-quality oil filter. The cost difference is less than $2.00.

Read why synthetic prevents sludge build-up>
quote:
Originally posted by Mokanic:
Now I know why only about three or four people post on this site.


Registered Members: 5211


Noria Corporation Forums


Online Now: 58


So,are you the forth person posting this time around,MOKANIC...........or are you number 58?

Kindly share what it is..........YOU CLAIM TO KNOW based on your above remark,we are all waiting to be englightened!
The picture posted by BLK98MK8LSC at:
http://image.mustang50magazine...exhaust_manifold.jpg

Is an interesting observation, but not an uncommon phenomenon for just about any engine worked for extended periods under less than ideal conditions. Timing, mixture and simple heat buildup over time will all contribute to this phenomenon, more or less in literally any but the stoutest industrial designs. What you see there is simply a normal result of elevated EGT (exhaust gas temperature) and in no way indicative of what the oil may be exposed to in terms of it's temperature or temperature dissipation properties. It is heat affecting basically the piston crown, head (exhaust side) and exhaust tubing.

Assuming the engine's cooling system is operating correctly and loaded within it's capacity, that phenomenon has no affect on the oil, except possibly in turbocharged applications.

Cool pic, tho. Big Grin
quote:
Originally posted by Alternator:
The picture posted by BLK98MK8LSC at:
http://image.mustang50magazine...exhaust_manifold.jpg

Is an interesting observation, but not an uncommon phenomenon for just about any engine worked for extended periods under less than ideal conditions. Timing, mixture and simple heat buildup over time will all contribute to this phenomenon, more or less in literally any but the stoutest industrial designs. What you see there is simply a normal result of elevated EGT (exhaust gas temperature) and in no way indicative of what the oil may be exposed to in terms of it's temperature or temperature dissipation properties. It is heat affecting basically the piston crown, head (exhaust side) and exhaust tubing.

Assuming the engine's cooling system is operating correctly and loaded within it's capacity, that phenomenon has no affect on the oil, except possibly in turbocharged applications.

Cool pic, tho. Big Grin



If your exaust manifold is cherry red,you better believe you're frying the oil........and it better be high quality synthetic oil,or the oil will sludge if it's petroleum!

I think you need to do a little 'research' before you voice your opinion.

You're entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts!

JUST SOME MORE PHOTOS....

http://i91.photobucket.com/alb...em/passant18t002.jpg

http://www.neuwerks.com/albums...4/IMG_8815.sized.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/alb...einz031/P1010088.jpg


The above are shots from a typical VW 1.8T WHICH ARE known to sludge due to.......'HEAT' from the turbo!
quote:
Originally posted by Alternator:
The picture posted by BLK98MK8LSC at:
http://image.mustang50magazine...exhaust_manifold.jpg

Is an interesting observation, but not an uncommon phenomenon for just about any engine worked for extended periods under less than ideal conditions. Timing, mixture and simple heat buildup over time will all contribute to this phenomenon, more or less in literally any but the stoutest industrial designs. What you see there is simply a normal result of elevated EGT (exhaust gas temperature) and in no way indicative of what the oil may be exposed to in terms of it's temperature or temperature dissipation properties. It is heat affecting basically the piston crown, head (exhaust side) and exhaust tubing.

Assuming the engine's cooling system is operating correctly and loaded within it's capacity, that phenomenon has no affect on the oil, except possibly in turbocharged applications.

Cool pic, tho. Big Grin
I would have to agree .

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