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quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
AMSOIL SHALL NOT BE LIABLE FOR ANY OR ALL OF THE FOLLOWING REASONS:

1. Failure to follow all OEM recommendations for warranty coverage, including lubricants, maintenance and drain intervals, prior to the first installation of AMSOIL lubricants.


Tim how does the owner of a preowned car prove this to Amsoil?

Amsoil has so many outs with this Warranty.
You can ask for them from the previous owner, you can have the dealer look up the service records for the car. You don't really buy a used car without asking for maintenance and repair records, do you?


How many people % wise selling cars keep accurate records?
I don't know. I always do.
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear: How many used cars on lots bought at auction have a service history?
I don't know. I would never buy a used car without service records.
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
AMSOIL SHALL NOT BE LIABLE FOR ANY OR ALL OF THE FOLLOWING REASONS:

1. Failure to follow all OEM recommendations for warranty coverage, including lubricants, maintenance and drain intervals, prior to the first installation of AMSOIL lubricants.


Tim how does the owner of a preowned car prove this to Amsoil?

Amsoil has so many outs with this Warranty.
You can ask for them from the previous owner, you can have the dealer look up the service records for the car. You don't really buy a used car without asking for maintenance and repair records, do you?


How many people % wise selling cars keep accurate records?
I don't know. I always do.
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear: How many used cars on lots bought at auction have a service history?
I don't know. I would never buy a used car without service records.


Your answer is " I don't know " is that because the ANSWER was not in your magic Amsoil Sales Book.

I bought a used car back in 1985 with no service records and I am still driving it today.
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
quote:
If it had that many holes in it, then the competitors, consumer and government agencies would have put AMSOIL out of business a long time ago. So far, I don't see where a single complaint has been registered. If it were CHEESE, it would be the best AMERICAN CHEESE on the market today.


I am not buying anything you have said here, the reason nobody has tried to put Amsoil out of business is because they do not sell much oil, you can prove me wrong by showing us some real data on Amsoil's sales figures as opposed to your line of Amsoil doubling in sales every year.
Pennzoil tried to put AMSOIL out of business in the 70's because of the letter "Z" in the original AMZOIL spelling. I guess they couldn't come up with anything else. Castrol tried to put much smaller Royal Purple out of business due to false advertising. I'm sure big oil would like to put AMSOIL out of business, but they can't.

Where did I say AMSOIL's sales is doubling every year?

quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear: Why can't we find Amsoil's sales figures on the Net but we can find Mobil's, what is Big Al hiding from us.
Mobil has to make public disclosure since they are a publicly traded stock and have to report and pay their stockholders. AMSOIL is the worlds largest privately owned synthetic oil company, and as such, they may not be required to do so.

However, Motor Oil sales figures are available from NOLN . Here are some:
http://www.amsoil.com/news/200..._fastlube_market.pdf .
https://www.amsoil.com/dealer/...news/actionnews.aspx See page 10.

AMSOIL started with 1 dealer. Now they have 50,000 to 70,000.
AMSOIL started blending,packaging and warehousing in a 400 square foot garage. Now they blend and package in 9 acres under one roof. You can learn more at https://www.amsoil.com/lit/g2593.pdf . And have 13 other warehouses. And distribute in 26 countries.
They have registered over 1.9 million accounts.

quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear: Why don't you get one of the guys up at Amsoil Corporate to drop by here, we are still waiting for the guy that went over 900,000 miles using Amsoil Motor Oil to sho up and answer our questions.
Feel free to invite them. AMSOIL Corporate may be too busy due to record sales with the rest of the industry down 20% last year. The delivery van driver might be busy driving that same van.
Last edited by timvipond
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:

Why can't we find Amsoil's sales figures on the Net but we can find Mobil's, what is Big Al hiding from us.


To be fair, until Amsoil offers stock to the public, thus having to file with the SEC, you won't.

And, to continue along that line, Tim should not be claiming the company doubling in sales year after year unless he can prove it.
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
quote:
Feel free to invite them. AMSOIL Corporate may be too busy due to record sales with the rest of the industry down 20% last year. The delivery van driver might be busy driving that same van.


4% Market Share, that does not impress me.



How about Havoline's 2%, or Quaker States 4%, or Castrol's 7%?
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:

Why can't we find Amsoil's sales figures on the Net but we can find Mobil's, what is Big Al hiding from us.


To be fair, until Amsoil offers stock to the public, thus having to file with the SEC, you won't.

And, to continue along that line, Tim should not be claiming the company doubling in sales year after year unless he can prove it.
I never made that claim.
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:

Why can't we find Amsoil's sales figures on the Net but we can find Mobil's, what is Big Al hiding from us.


To be fair, until Amsoil offers stock to the public, thus having to file with the SEC, you won't.

And, to continue along that line, Tim should not be claiming the company doubling in sales year after year unless he can prove it.
I never made that claim.


Oops. Sorry. Raw egg on my face.
Shell has owned the Pennzoil and QuakerState brands for around 10 years now in an attempt to increase market share. All 3 of their brands are down in market share since then. AMSOIL has record sales this year. The motor oil market overall is down 20% this year. AMSOIL has doubled in sales in the past 4 years. Looks like motorists are leaving the other brands more and using AMSOIL.

If you don't want to look at AMSOIL data, then I suggest not looking at it. As a retired Shell Oil scientist, I find test data very important. I think others do as well. The motor oil industry as a whole was down 20% last year, yet AMSOIL had record sales, so they must be doing something right. I read all the time about other motor oil companies laying off employees, raising prices, refineries shutting down, selling off product lines, leaving markets, etc., but AMSOIL is growing by leaps and bounds. If I could find undisputed independent test data showing other products superior to AMSOIL with a better warranty and history, then I would sell those.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Tim Vipond, Thu June 03 2010 03:15 PM

Tim Vipond
Level 4 - 251 to 500 posts

Posted Sun June 06 2010 07:05 AM Hide Post
Again, no problems reported other than a small number of vehicles had a light come in a few extreme cases. No damage has been reported. If damage occurs due to the filters, AMSOIL pays for repairs.

Here is some data comparing AMSOIL's market share to the competitors:
"The 2009 Fast Lube Operators Survey shows AMSOIL is
among the top-selling synthetic motor oils in the fast lube
business. In fact, 4 percent of operators listed AMSOIL as
their best-selling synthetic motor oil. The AMSOIL percent-
ages were 2 percent in 2007 and 3 percent in 2008, indicat-
ing the demand for AMSOIL synthetic motor oil has doubled
in only two years."

A bit more than a flea as you stated, don't you agree?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Tim Vipond, Sun June 06 2010 12:57 PM


Tim, do you have any proof of what you are saying with these sales increases or is the info proprietary, I just don't get why you are pointing out these sales figures, if I found out that Pennzoil Platinum doubled in sales I would really not care, I use the oil because I like it, sales figures mean nothing to me.

This Fast Lube Operators Survey sounds like a Bogus Survey to me, pure Amscam Marketing, maybe I will go to Jiffy Lube and ask them to put in Amsoil Motor Oil, I am sure its on the shelf next to Redline Motor Oil and on the shelf above there is Synlube and Mobil 1

I will bet that the bottom shelf will contain Royal Purple and RLI Biosyn.
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:

Tim, do you have any proof of what you are saying with these sales increases or is the info proprietary, I just don't get why you are pointing out these sales figures, if I found out that Pennzoil Platinum doubled in sales I would really not care, I use the oil because I like it, sales figures mean nothing to me.
Some of the data came from NOLN (National Oil and Lube News), some from Lube Report, Lubes 'n Greases, and some from AMSOIL. I pointed it out when some asserted that AMSOIL's sales are only a "flea on an elephants arse", or that their competition sells more in a day than AMSOIL does in a year, or that AMSOIL isn't on anybody's radar, etc.

quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear: This Fast Lube Operators Survey sounds like a Bogus Survey to me, pure Amscam Marketing,
that data came from NOLN.
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear: maybe I will go to Jiffy Lube and ask them to put in Amsoil Motor Oil, I am sure its on the shelf next to Redline Motor Oil and on the shelf above there is Synlube and Mobil 1

I will bet that the bottom shelf will contain Royal Purple and RLI Biosyn.
I've never seen Redline, Synlube or RLI Biosyn at a Jiffy Lube, but have seen AMSOIL, Royal Purple and Mobil 1 there. Not bad considering Jiffy Lube is owned by Shell Oil, and are contractually obligated to sell a high percentage (80 or 90%) of Pennzoil/QuakerState/Rotella products.
quote:
Some of the data came from NOLN (National Oil and Lube News), some from Lube Report, Lubes 'n Greases, and some from AMSOIL.


Tim, if you want to quote numbers you really need to give us some real concrete proof, doesn't Amsoil print out there sales figures every year, something like:

2009= $100,000,000
2008= $75,000,000
2007= $50,000,000

This motor oil sales for your competitors that you state is down 20% really means nothing to me.

Exxon/Mobil Sales could be up 90% next year and Pennzoil's or shall we say Shell's oil sales could be down 90%, I do not follow the Herd Mentality, I will continue using Pennzoil Platinum.
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
quote:
Some of the data came from NOLN (National Oil and Lube News), some from Lube Report, Lubes 'n Greases, and some from AMSOIL.


Tim, if you want to quote numbers you really need to give us some real concrete proof, doesn't Amsoil print out there sales figures every year, something like:

2009= $100,000,000
2008= $75,000,000
2007= $50,000,000

I've never seen anything like that before from AMSOIL. I don't know of any family owned private business that does. Only market shares from trade magazines, such as the ones from NOLAN that I've shared.
quote:
I've never seen anything like that before from AMSOIL. I don't know of any family owned private business that does. Only market shares from trade magazines, such as the ones from NOLAN that I've shared.


The Magazine stuff is not going to cut it, I believe you said Amsoil doubled there sales in 4 years, doubled from what number.

I would think that Amsoil Salesman would be interested in what the company is selling every year, or how much the company is making.

Lets say Exxon/ Mobil sold $300,000,000 last year and the year before it sold $270,000,000 worth of product, it would be nice for you guys, meaning the Amsoil Salesman too see how Amsoil is doing each year.

Market shares just seem misleading too me, you did show a graph where Mobil had like 58% market share and Amsoil had 4% market share, I am looking for what it means in dollars and cents.
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:


Market shares just seem misleading too me, you did show a graph where Mobil had like 58% market share and Amsoil had 4% market share, I am looking for what it means in dollars and cents.



Bear...........Why would you even care about that info unless you were planning on buying the company,or loaning them money. Are you an investment banker,or a venture capitalist. Thinking about an IPO? What gives?
Nice example Bear. Although you used Gear oil for your example, we could easily substitute 0W30 in an engine that calls for 5W20, with no other options. I get the point. It would be a long drawn out uphill battle.

Stick to approved fluids, and mfg recommended intervals, in the suggested grade, and don't play games while under a warranty. Sound advice, and exactly what the service writer told us when we had my GF's Jeep in for a warranty issue. He flat out said, DON'T USE A 30 GRADE OIL IN THIS JEEP! IF THERE IS AN OIL PROBLEM WE WILL PULL A SAMPLE, AND THAT 30 GRADE WILL BITE YOU IN THE BUTT! IT CALLS FOR 5W20, USE 5W20!

NUFF SAID,
AD
Do what you want. Hypothesize all you want. But you haven't proven a thing. You have yet to show a real life drawn out court battle over AMSOIL. I know of no cases where anyone had a warranty problem using extended oil changes with an AMSOIL recommended fluid for 38 years, millions of vehicles, billions of miles. The proof is in the pudding (and the oil).

And of course, if any oil fails, even while following the vehicle manufacturers guidelines, then your "scenario" would still apply. Vehicle manufacture warranties only cover defective parts, not defective oil. So it is best to pick an oil with the best warranty. Some are only for 4,000 miles/4 months and cover only 15 parts. Some oils don't seem to offer any written warranty. Your choice...
Last edited by timvipond
Quote:
Do what you want.


We all Will.

Quote:
But you haven't proven a thing.


Neither have you.

Quote:
You have yet to show a real life drawn out court battle over AMSOIL


The records are sealed.

Quote:
I know of no cases where anyone had a warranty problem using extended oil changes with an AMSOIL recommended fluid for 38 years


Your just not telling us.

Quote:
millions of vehicles


Can you prove that with DOCUMENTATION, sure sounds like a Sales Pitch.

Quote:
The proof is in the pudding (and the oil).


Amsoil sure turns into PUDDING after 17,000 miles.

Quote:
So it is best to pick an oil with the best warranty


I already read Amsoil's Warranty, and its worthless, I could care less about Pennzoil's Warranty since the oil is fine for me.

Quote:
Some oils don't seem to offer any written warranty. Your choice...


My uncle has a 1979 Pontiac with 220,000 miles that he has done yearly OCI's on the cheapest oil he can get his hands on, so he has done fine with his cheap oil that I would guess has absolutely no kind of WARRANTY.
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:

The records are sealed.

Prove it.

quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:

Amsoil sure turns into PUDDING after 17,000 miles.

Proof? Alchemy?


Your the Amsoil Salesman, you PROVE me WRONG.
Your statements. Provide the proof to back them up. I can't prove something that didn't happen.
can Amsoil ASL 5w30 really stand 25000 miles?
DSteven Offline


Registered: 04/09/04
Posts: 295
Loc: Minnesota-South Dakota
A few years ago in my area, an amsoil dealer did 25000-30000 mile oci's on his taurus. It started running badly, so he brought it in to the dealer with around 92000 miles. Apparently, the cam had been ground down. It was a 92 taurus with a 3.8L v6. From that experience, I would not really recommend running the oil that long. Maybe, if it got new filters and a fresh quart every 3-4K. It is an awesome oil, from what I hear, huh, but any oil for 25000 or 30000...maybe not such a good idea.


: can Amsoil ASL 5w30 really stand 25000 miles?
DSteven Offline


Registered: 04/09/04
Posts: 295
Loc: Minnesota-South Dakota
TomJones76-
The individual that ran that amount in his Taurus was an amsoil dealer. I talked to Frank, the mechanic that repaired that car, which he remembers well, and he said the man followed the instructions and just didn't ahve good luck. He said he was proving his oil point with his Taurus. Unfortuneately, it didn't go well. I did see a car with 202,000 on its clock that had a diet of Amsoil 10-30 since 28000 miles. The individual used Wix oil filters, changing them every 3-4K with a fresh top off quart and ran the oil 12-15K, changing the air filter every 5K. The engine was very clean and ran great! That was a good testimony to Amsoil. It is a good oil, exceptional in fact...but 25,000 miles?...maybe not such a good idea. Tom, I just couldn't recommend, in good conscience at least, driving 25000 miles on any oil. Yes, maybe it will be somewhat adequate under the most ideal conditions...but for a 25000 mile run of miles, what vehicle sees all 25000 miles as idea? I have to quench when trying to get 10000 out of Mobil-1 and changing the filter at 5K. I think of all the different temps (-30'-100'F), short trips, idle time, etc that goes on during that time...and remembering the STS's oil life indicator only went 1400 miles one cold winter before wanting an oil change. All that factored, it just makes 25000 seem very high for a recommendation. That is all. No controversy, just writing from experience.
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
Nice example Bear. Although you used Gear oil for your example, we could easily substitute 0W30 in an engine that calls for 5W20, with no other options. I get the point. It would be a long drawn out uphill battle.

Stick to approved fluids, and mfg recommended intervals, in the suggested grade, and don't play games while under a warranty. Sound advice, and exactly what the service writer told us when we had my GF's Jeep in for a warranty issue. He flat out said, DON'T USE A 30 GRADE OIL IN THIS JEEP! IF THERE IS AN OIL PROBLEM WE WILL PULL A SAMPLE, AND THAT 30 GRADE WILL BITE YOU IN THE BUTT! IT CALLS FOR 5W20, USE 5W20!

NUFF SAID,
AD



Yeh......that worked at real well for some. Play it safe,really,are you sure?

For those of you who think you are safe doing 3000 mile oil changes with receipts,think again.....

http://www.google.com/imgres?i...a:en-US%3Cimg%20src=


quote:
<<<<<Manufacturer warranties might refuse to cover oil sludge damage by blaming you, the customer, for poor maintenance habits or neglect—even if you can prove you changed the oil every 3,000 miles. Without warranty protection, engine replacements are $5,000-$10,000. SAAB, Toyota, VW, and a few other manufacturers have some limited coverage for sludge damage.>>>>>



In sum..........playing it safe as some have said,may not be.....playing it smart!

The smart move is to use group IV synthetic,don't get sludge in the first place,and you won't have to worry about warranty issues......because you probably won't have any issues to deal with.
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
Nice example Bear. Although you used Gear oil for your example, we could easily substitute 0W30 in an engine that calls for 5W20, with no other options. I get the point. It would be a long drawn out uphill battle.

Stick to approved fluids, and mfg recommended intervals, in the suggested grade, and don't play games while under a warranty. Sound advice, and exactly what the service writer told us when we had my GF's Jeep in for a warranty issue. He flat out said, DON'T USE A 30 GRADE OIL IN THIS JEEP! IF THERE IS AN OIL PROBLEM WE WILL PULL A SAMPLE, AND THAT 30 GRADE WILL BITE YOU IN THE BUTT! IT CALLS FOR 5W20, USE 5W20!

NUFF SAID,
AD



Yeh......that worked at real well for some. Play it safe,really,are you sure?

For those of you who think you are safe doing 3000 mile oil changes with receipts,think again.....

http://www.google.com/imgres?i...a:en-US%3Cimg%20src=


quote:
<<<<<Manufacturer warranties might refuse to cover oil sludge damage by blaming you, the customer, for poor maintenance habits or neglect—even if you can prove you changed the oil every 3,000 miles. Without warranty protection, engine replacements are $5,000-$10,000. SAAB, Toyota, VW, and a few other manufacturers have some limited coverage for sludge damage.>>>>>



In sum..........playing it safe as some have said,may not be.....playing it smart!

The smart move is to use group IV synthetic,don't get sludge in the first place,and you won't have to worry about warranty issues......because you probably won't have any issues to deal with.


Point well taken Kirk, but if you use a mfg approved oil, and follow the intervals you'll be fine. That is unless there is a design flaw with the engine, in which case that would be a mfg issue they'd have to make good one. Just be able to show proof you've maintained the car as they outlined, using an approved oil and filter.

Even Amsoil had sludge issues in certain vehicles and suggests you follow mfg OCI's. These were design flaws and not the fault of the oil. I don't want to get the Amsoil boys all fired up again!
quote:
Originally posted by Miro Kefurt:

You have to remember that the "Market Share" of Synthetic Motor oil is now in 2% range that is from almost 250,000,000 Light duty vehicles less than 5 million use "synthetic oils"

From the Mobil 1 volume sales that would if true mean that Mobil 1 users only change their oil every 30 months, which is not likely, so again the BIG OIL as well as "small oil" like to misrepresent the fact, or basically lie about their sales.
Where did you get these numbers? The reports I've seen show a 10% synthetic oil market. And retail stores carry much more that 2% synthetic oils, more like the 10% I've seen reported.


quote:
Originally posted by Miro Kefurt:When high quality PAO sells for $8.00 or more per pound and Mobil 1 in store sells for under $8.00 and weights just under 2 pounds, just figure how much virgin PAO is really in it !!!
Where did you get this pricing? The reports I've seen show it goes for about $10 per gallon. Which would seem to reflect the chemical synthetic motor oil prices in the market.
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:


3. Change PCV valve yourself = Not all models even have one now days. You also failed to mention to only use OEM valve if changed,and never use aftermarket valve. You could void the warranty with trajans advice.


Question..........who is actually listening to Trajan..........NOT ME!


I think Trajan gave some good advise. I only used OEM PCV valves, they never gave me problems. My dad told me aftermarket can cause oil use, they did for him, changing back to OEM easily fixed it. I'll take his word.


It's just further proof, if needed, that he doesn't read his own links. It's his own link that says change the PCV valve yourself.

It's also further proof that he cherry picks his own links.

Got to love it. He posts a link, then attacks his own link........
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
quote:
Originally posted by Miro Kefurt:

You have to remember that the "Market Share" of Synthetic Motor oil is now in 2% range that is from almost 250,000,000 Light duty vehicles less than 5 million use "synthetic oils"

From the Mobil 1 volume sales that would if true mean that Mobil 1 users only change their oil every 30 months, which is not likely, so again the BIG OIL as well as "small oil" like to misrepresent the fact, or basically lie about their sales.
Where did you get these numbers? The reports I've seen show a 10% synthetic oil market. And retail stores carry much more that 2% synthetic oils, more like the 10% I've seen reported.


quote:
Originally posted by Miro Kefurt:When high quality PAO sells for $8.00 or more per pound and Mobil 1 in store sells for under $8.00 and weights just under 2 pounds, just figure how much virgin PAO is really in it !!!
Where did you get this pricing? The reports I've seen show it goes for about $10 per gallon. Which would seem to reflect the chemical synthetic motor oil prices in the market.


Same place he gets all his other claims that he has yet to back. The air.
quote:
Of course the United States Patent and Trademark Office approved AMSOIL's trademark "The First in Synthetics", when AMSOIL proved they were the first 100% synthetic oil to meet all API requirements. AMSOIL also submitted volumes of test data showing their oil was the best on the market, and the US Patent and Trademark Office asked for the other oil companies to prove AMSOIL wrong, which they didn't. And of course the trademark has been reviewed and renewed since then. And if you have any data that proves otherwise, please contact the United States Patent and Trademark Office to have them void it.


Tim, that must be public knowledge if it is at the Patent Office. Please Post it here for us to read.

quote:
Where did you get these numbers? The reports I've seen show a 10% synthetic oil market. And retail stores carry much more that 2% synthetic oils, more like the 10% I've seen reported.


Again, Please Post the reports you've seen.

quote:
Where did you get this pricing? The reports I've seen show it goes for about $10 per gallon. Which would seem to reflect the chemical synthetic motor oil prices in the market.


I think we would like to see these reports too!
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
Nice example Bear. Although you used Gear oil for your example, we could easily substitute 0W30 in an engine that calls for 5W20, with no other options. I get the point. It would be a long drawn out uphill battle.

Stick to approved fluids, and mfg recommended intervals, in the suggested grade, and don't play games while under a warranty. Sound advice, and exactly what the service writer told us when we had my GF's Jeep in for a warranty issue. He flat out said, DON'T USE A 30 GRADE OIL IN THIS JEEP! IF THERE IS AN OIL PROBLEM WE WILL PULL A SAMPLE, AND THAT 30 GRADE WILL BITE YOU IN THE BUTT! IT CALLS FOR 5W20, USE 5W20!

NUFF SAID,
AD



Yeh......that worked at real well for some. Play it safe,really,are you sure?

For those of you who think you are safe doing 3000 mile oil changes with receipts,think again.....

http://www.google.com/imgres?i...a:en-US%3Cimg%20src=


quote:
<<<<<Manufacturer warranties might refuse to cover oil sludge damage by blaming you, the customer, for poor maintenance habits or neglect—even if you can prove you changed the oil every 3,000 miles. Without warranty protection, engine replacements are $5,000-$10,000. SAAB, Toyota, VW, and a few other manufacturers have some limited coverage for sludge damage.>>>>>



In sum..........playing it safe as some have said,may not be.....playing it smart!

The smart move is to use group IV synthetic,don't get sludge in the first place,and you won't have to worry about warranty issues......because you probably won't have any issues to deal with.


Instead of trolling me over a PCV change, why don't you read your own link all the way through for once, instead of cherry picking?

look for the line "If you're on a budget" in the link *you* provided.
quote:
Originally posted by johnpr3:
quote:
Of course the United States Patent and Trademark Office approved AMSOIL's trademark "The First in Synthetics", when AMSOIL proved they were the first 100% synthetic oil to meet all API requirements. AMSOIL also submitted volumes of test data showing their oil was the best on the market, and the US Patent and Trademark Office asked for the other oil companies to prove AMSOIL wrong, which they didn't. And of course the trademark has been reviewed and renewed since then. And if you have any data that proves otherwise, please contact the United States Patent and Trademark Office to have them void it.


Tim, that must be public knowledge if it is at the Patent Office. Please Post it here for us to read.

http://tess2.uspto.gov/

Word Mark THE FIRST IN SYNTHETICS
Goods and Services IC 001. US 001 005 006 010 026 046. G & S: Chemical additives for lubricants and fuels; anti-freeze; transmission fluid. FIRST USE: 19910300. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19910300
IC 002. US 006 011 016. G & S: Rust preventatives in the nature of a coating. FIRST USE: 20031112. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20031112

IC 003. US 001 004 006 050 051 052. G & S: Automotive cleaning preparations. FIRST USE: 20040324. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20040324

IC 004. US 001 006 015. G & S: Lubricants, oils and greases for automotive, industrial and commercial use. FIRST USE: 19900400. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19900400

Standard Characters Claimed
Mark Drawing Code (4) STANDARD CHARACTER MARK
Serial Number 78803596
Filing Date January 31, 2006
Current Filing Basis 1A
Original Filing Basis 1A
Published for Opposition December 5, 2006
Registration Number 3210848
Registration Date February 20, 2007
Owner (REGISTRANT) AMSOIL INC. CORPORATION DELAWARE AMSOIL BUILDING Superior WISCONSIN 54880
Attorney of Record Christopher J. Schulte
Prior Registrations 2033283
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register PRINCIPAL-2(F)
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE


Typed Drawing

Word Mark THE FIRST IN SYNTHETICS
Goods and Services IC 004. US 001 006 015. G & S: synthetic lubricating oil; synthetic gear lube; para-synthetic lubricating oil; synthetic turbo lubricating oil; and synthetic automatic transmission fluid. FIRST USE: 19900700. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19900700
Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING
Serial Number 74562272
Filing Date August 17, 1994
Current Filing Basis 1A
Original Filing Basis 1A
Published for Opposition October 22, 1996
Registration Number 2033283
Registration Date January 28, 1997
Owner (REGISTRANT) Amsoil, Inc. CORPORATION DELAWARE Amsoil Bldg. Superior WISCONSIN 54880
Attorney of Record Christopher J. Schulte
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register PRINCIPAL-2(F)
Affidavit Text SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR). SECTION 8(10-YR) 20060713.
Renewal 1ST RENEWAL 20060713
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE
quote:
quote:
Where did you get these numbers? The reports I've seen show a 10% synthetic oil market. And retail stores carry much more that 2% synthetic oils, more like the 10% I've seen reported.



Again, Please Post the reports you've seen.

quote:
Where did you get this pricing? The reports I've seen show it goes for about $10 per gallon. Which would seem to reflect the chemical synthetic motor oil prices in the market.



I think we would like to see these reports too!



You going to show us the numbers Tim, I also looked at Amsoil's numbers on the ASTM D-5293 test and they did not look that good.

I also looked at the 40 Degree Celcius Numbers and I was not impressed.

You seem to like to knock Pennzoil but they did show numbers for the D-4684 test, Castrol Edge also showed numbers for this test, Amsoil does not have any numbers for this test meaning they do not show it on there site.

I have a feeling that since Amsoil is super thick they probably knew they would do terrible with the D-4684 test.

How come Amsoil 0W-20 is thicker than Amsoil 5W-20 XL, that Amsoil 0W-20 is almost a 0W-30 and some would argue that it is almost a 5W-20

Your Amsoil 0W-30 is thicker than Castrol Edge's 5W-30 and its very close to Pennzoil Platinums numbers for there 5W-30 motor oil.

Why is the 5W-30 XL thinner than the 5W-30 100% synthetic oil that Amsoil sells.

The Viscosity Indexes on your oil's looks pathetic, no wonder your oil's thicken up overtime.

Amsoil Motor Oil is just too THICK, especially for the NORTHERN folks during the wintertime.
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
quote:
Originally posted by johnpr3:
quote:
Of course the United States Patent and Trademark Office approved AMSOIL's trademark "The First in Synthetics", when AMSOIL proved they were the first 100% synthetic oil to meet all API requirements. AMSOIL also submitted volumes of test data showing their oil was the best on the market, and the US Patent and Trademark Office asked for the other oil companies to prove AMSOIL wrong, which they didn't. And of course the trademark has been reviewed and renewed since then. And if you have any data that proves otherwise, please contact the United States Patent and Trademark Office to have them void it.


Tim, that must be public knowledge if it is at the Patent Office. Please Post it here for us to read.

http://tess2.uspto.gov/

Word Mark THE FIRST IN SYNTHETICS
Goods and Services IC 001. US 001 005 006 010 026 046. G & S: Chemical additives for lubricants and fuels; anti-freeze; transmission fluid. FIRST USE: 19910300. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19910300
IC 002. US 006 011 016. G & S: Rust preventatives in the nature of a coating. FIRST USE: 20031112. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20031112

IC 003. US 001 004 006 050 051 052. G & S: Automotive cleaning preparations. FIRST USE: 20040324. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20040324

IC 004. US 001 006 015. G & S: Lubricants, oils and greases for automotive, industrial and commercial use. FIRST USE: 19900400. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19900400

Standard Characters Claimed
Mark Drawing Code (4) STANDARD CHARACTER MARK
Serial Number 78803596
Filing Date January 31, 2006
Current Filing Basis 1A
Original Filing Basis 1A
Published for Opposition December 5, 2006
Registration Number 3210848
Registration Date February 20, 2007
Owner (REGISTRANT) AMSOIL INC. CORPORATION DELAWARE AMSOIL BUILDING Superior WISCONSIN 54880
Attorney of Record Christopher J. Schulte
Prior Registrations 2033283
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register PRINCIPAL-2(F)
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE


Typed Drawing

Word Mark THE FIRST IN SYNTHETICS
Goods and Services IC 004. US 001 006 015. G & S: synthetic lubricating oil; synthetic gear lube; para-synthetic lubricating oil; synthetic turbo lubricating oil; and synthetic automatic transmission fluid. FIRST USE: 19900700. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19900700
Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING
Serial Number 74562272
Filing Date August 17, 1994
Current Filing Basis 1A
Original Filing Basis 1A
Published for Opposition October 22, 1996
Registration Number 2033283
Registration Date January 28, 1997
Owner (REGISTRANT) Amsoil, Inc. CORPORATION DELAWARE Amsoil Bldg. Superior WISCONSIN 54880
Attorney of Record Christopher J. Schulte
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register PRINCIPAL-2(F)
Affidavit Text SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR). SECTION 8(10-YR) 20060713.
Renewal 1ST RENEWAL 20060713
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE


Tim, AMSOIL just patented some words. That doesn't mean anything other than that. Just a slogan.
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
quote:
Tim, AMSOIL just patented some words. That doesn't mean anything other than that. Just a slogan.


I call it plain old MARKETING, Amsoil and there PUSHY Dealers will say anything to sell there product, will they ever learn before its too late, probably not.



TOO LATE BIG BEAR,TOO LATE FOR WHAT.......

....PLEASE TELL US........IS THERE A STORM COMING...........
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Miro Kefurt:


When high quality PAO sells for $8.00 or more per pound and Mobil 1 in store sells for under $8.00 and weights just under 2 pounds, just figure how much virgin PAO is really in it !!!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The other issue besides cost I would think is group I-III oil is a byproduct of the refining process to make fuel,and now what to do with all that lube oil. It would be similar to how big industry gets rid of another industrial by- product..........FLUORIDE.

We are all using/burning some type of fuel that comes from crude oil,and the byproduct of all that refining of crude oil,would be mineral/lube oil as a byproduct.

Big oil is always going to push mineral oil vs synthetic,otherwise how would all that product(mineral oil)get used up.

http://www.elmhurst.edu/~chm/o...utlines/distill.html


Look how much mineral/lube oil is in this graph.

I would think that part of the graph(lube oil) is reserved for all the naysayers in this group against synthetic oil.
They are the ones doing all those 3000 mile oil changes who drink all the mineral oil........Kool-Aid!!

I would think that big oil is totally against using 100% synthetic with extended oil changes,so big oil will always market 3000 mile changes using mineral oil,for more profit, and to "Get Rid" of the lube oil. Only suckers buy into that philosophy,not me!


I also think that automotive diesel technology has not really caught on(politically)in this country vs Europe for the same set of reasons. If more cars got 50 MPG using diesel..........what would big oil do with all that extra........gasoline. What would happen to the price of gasoline,and big oil profits!! It's all about supply and demand,and of course......BIG PROFIT.
Last edited by captainkirk
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
quote:
Tim, AMSOIL just patented some words. That doesn't mean anything other than that. Just a slogan.


I call it plain old MARKETING, Amsoil and there PUSHY Dealers will say anything to sell there product, will they ever learn before its too late, probably not.

But AMSOIL had to prove it to the United States Patent and Trademark Office. And none of the oil companies refuted it then or today.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:Amsoil Motor Oil is just too THICK, especially for the NORTHERN folks during the wintertime.

No it isn't. Look at the Pour Point and Cold Cranking numbers. None better. Pick the 0w-XX and all will be well. AMSOIL is VERY popular in cold climates.

Show me where AMSOIL has ever failed to perform as advertised. No one else has.


Sorry, Tim, but I have seen the Cold Cranking Numbers and they do not look as good as my next oil that I will be using in the wintertime.

Pour Point does not mean anything to me, what means something is the D-4684 test that Amsoil has failed to take part in, without that test I cannot even think of buying Amsoil Motor Oil, its a better test than the ASTM D-5293

Sorry Tim, but in this debate the customer is always right, tell your boss, I think his name is Big Al, that we all want to see Amsoil do an ASTM D-4684 Test, and we are not going to buy that Amsoil thinks its a worthless test, if Amsoil wants are money then they know what they need too do.

Show us the DATA that any of what we are saying is wrong, I have all of the numbers on just about all of the motor oil's and Amsoil is coming up thick and short.
quote:
Originally posted by johnpr3:

"Only 11 percent of survey participants are using synthetic motor oil in their engine."
[/QUOTE]
------------------------------------------


I guess that would mean the other 89% percent are, "out of the loop" in the meantime. Too bad for them,but very good for big oil and all those profits.

Now we know why all those engines sludged up and all the subsequent lawsuits...........everyone(90%+) went to iffy lube and got the cheap bulk oil that is prone to sludge.

Some people(TRAJAN) think(say) that certain engines are prone to sludge,and/or are defective, when in reality,it's certain oils are prone to sludge and or defective.

That 11% percent really shows how clueless the public is. The very same public that just voted for Al Greene in SC.(lol)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...in-gre_n_613453.html

fficial&channel=s&prmd=n&source=univ&tbs=nws:1&tbo=u&ei=w5IiTLepNsK78gayr4W7BQ&sa=X&oi=news_group&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CCAQsQQwAA" target="_blank">http://www.google.com/search?q...um=1&ved=0CCAQsQQwAA
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:Amsoil Motor Oil is just too THICK, especially for the NORTHERN folks during the wintertime.

No it isn't. Look at the Pour Point and Cold Cranking numbers. None better. Pick the 0w-XX and all will be well. AMSOIL is VERY popular in cold climates.

Show me where AMSOIL has ever failed to perform as advertised. No one else has.


Sorry, Tim, but I have seen the Cold Cranking Numbers and they do not look as good as my next oil that I will be using in the wintertime.

Pour Point does not mean anything to me, what means something is the D-4684 test that Amsoil has failed to take part in, without that test I cannot even think of buying Amsoil Motor Oil, its a better test than the ASTM D-5293

Sorry Tim, but in this debate the customer is always right, tell your boss, I think his name is Big Al, that we all want to see Amsoil do an ASTM D-4684 Test, and we are not going to buy that Amsoil thinks its a worthless test, if Amsoil wants are money then they know what they need too do.

Show us the DATA that any of what we are saying is wrong, I have all of the numbers on just about all of the motor oil's and Amsoil is coming up thick and short.



Big Bear..........."Try wrapping your head around this one"
------------------------------------------------

Car talk quote

Unless they changed the rating procedure, the first number describes how the oil will behave (pour point & flow characteristics) at 0 degrees C. Meaning a 0W-20 will behave like a 0 weight oil at 0C, and a 5W-20 will behave like a 5W oil at 0C. That's all the first number is indicating.

0w is xxx cps @ -35F 5w is xxx cPs @ -30F - the limits of stress under the CCS (Cold Crank Simulator) are the same.
MRV rating is more indicative of the differences. Some people think that all 5w's are the same at sensible flows ..as though they get some "free ride" up to operating temperature. A heavier fluid is ALWAYS a heavier fluid. This just means it's pumpable and not spinning around in a gelatinous mass.

Here's Pennzoil's hybrid 0w-20 CCS/MRV spec's

MRV viscosity, cP (°C) ASTD D-4684 16,800 (-40)
CCS Viscosity, cP (°C ) ASTM D-5293 5,600 (-35)

Penzoil's Ultra 5w-20
MRV viscosity, cP(°C)ASTD D-4684 11,700 (-35)
CCS Viscosity, cP(°C)ASTM D-5293 4,250 (-35)

Here's Mobil's M1 0w-40 @ -40C (MRV only)
MRV at -40ºC 26242 cP

In other words, just because you see a 0w doesn't mean that it's not a heavier fluid at that temp in any rational sense. A 0w-20 could indeed be a heavier fluid than a comparative 5w-20 at any temp yet have the CCS and MRV spec's that the 5w-20 cannot meet. That's the case with Mobil's M1 0w-30 vs. 5w-30

It's an extremely hard concept to wrap around if you aren't some physics major. I'm not one. We're used to dealing with (what's called) Newtonian fluids. When those fluids are described in their non-Newtonian terms, it's not easy to understand.



Bear...........so why not use the 10W-30 in this case vs the 5w-20. The 5w-20 offers very little practical cold weather benefit if any. AT 35 below in Canada,any normal engine is plug in and heated.

http://www.pennzoil.com/docume...yntheticMotorOil.pdf
Last edited by captainkirk
quote:
Here's Pennzoil's hybrid 0w-20 CCS/MRV spec's

MRV viscosity, cP (°C) ASTD D-4684 16,800 (-40)
CCS Viscosity, cP (°C ) ASTM D-5293 5,600 (-35)

Penzoil's Ultra 5w-20
MRV viscosity, cP(°C)ASTD D-4684 11,700 (-35)
CCS Viscosity, cP(°C)ASTM D-5293 4,250 (-35)

Here's Mobil's M1 0w-40 @ -40C (MRV only)
MRV at -40ºC 26242 cP



Captain Kirk, which of these oil's would you want in your car if you were in Northern Minnesota during the month of January where overnite lows can dip well below 0 Degrees.

Is it better to have a lower number in the D-4684 and D-5293 tests.
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
quote:
Here's Pennzoil's hybrid 0w-20 CCS/MRV spec's

MRV viscosity, cP (°C) ASTD D-4684 16,800 (-40)
CCS Viscosity, cP (°C ) ASTM D-5293 5,600 (-35)

Penzoil's Ultra 5w-20
MRV viscosity, cP(°C)ASTD D-4684 11,700 (-35)
CCS Viscosity, cP(°C)ASTM D-5293 4,250 (-35)

Here's Mobil's M1 0w-40 @ -40C (MRV only)
MRV at -40ºC 26242 cP



Captain Kirk, which of these oil's would you want in your car if you were in Northern Minnesota during the month of January where overnite lows can dip well below 0 Degrees.

Is it better to have a lower number in the D-4684 and D-5293 tests.


Now you know the answer to that. Simlube isn't on the list.
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:Amsoil Motor Oil is just too THICK, especially for the NORTHERN folks during the wintertime.

No it isn't. Look at the Pour Point and Cold Cranking numbers. None better. Pick the 0w-XX and all will be well. AMSOIL is VERY popular in cold climates.

Show me where AMSOIL has ever failed to perform as advertised. No one else has.


Sorry, Tim, but I have seen the Cold Cranking Numbers and they do not look as good as my next oil that I will be using in the wintertime.
which Cold Cranking numbers are you talking about? Pennzoil 0w20 CCS Viscosity, cP (°C ) ASTM D-5293 5,600 (-35),AMSOIL 0w20 is only 4069. Pennzoil 0w20 is much thicker. No thanks.

quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:Pour Point does not mean anything to me, what means something is the D-4684 test that Amsoil has failed to take part in, without that test I cannot even think of buying Amsoil Motor Oil, its a better test than the ASTM D-5293
Which D-4684 test results are you talking about? Please post the link. This test measures wax crystallization. Since the AMSOIL full chemical synthetic oils contain no wax, this would not be a valid test. This is why Pour Point and Cold Cranking values are used.

quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:Show us the DATA that any of what we are saying is wrong, I have all of the numbers on just about all of the motor oil's and Amsoil is coming up thick and short.
You have to show me some data first. Again, AMSOIL meets all SAE viscosity standards they say they do and the oil has not failed in 38 years. Doesn't get any better than that.
Last edited by timvipond
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Big Bear:

Sorry, Tim, but I have seen the Cold Cranking Numbers and they do not look as good as my next oil that I will be using in the wintertime.

Bear. I see you live in NY. UPSTATE? How cold does it get,and what is a typical cold start for you. Do you heat the oil pan in the winter? Have you ever had cold start issues with any particular oil.

I once ran ran Amsoil 20w-50 in a 1986 regal with a 5.0 olds v8 and it started no problem at around 0 F many times. M1 10-30 would allow valve train rattle at 40 F.

CD-2 detergent allowed the M1 to go another 2k with no rattle/tap for a total of 4k. Amsoil never needed CD-2.
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:


Now you know the answer to that. Simlube isn't on the list.



Trajan..........What is Simlube?

///// 2004 BMW Z4 3.0i sport/premium/convienence pkg. GC 0w30 or M1 0w-40. (TRAJANS FANTASY CAR/OIL)



I, on the other hand,unlike Trajan,use a product called Synlube lube-4-life.

I just drove the Mustang 4.0 V6 down the NJ parkway doing between 80-90 at 95F for a very extended run. I WOT'D the car at 83 and the V6 still had punch to push me back in the seat.......USING THE SYNLUBE LUBE-4-LIFE MOTOR OIL. It now has on the oil about 13K. Remember......the last car was traded with around 60k on said oil...............and never any issues.

The Car uses ZERO OIL.

Instead of spending time changing the oil,I utilized my free time and saved $$$, to go for a drive,dine in Cape May and check out the beach!

Did the same hard fast run back home. Zero oil use,plenty of punch even at over 80 in a V6!


IN SUM,TRAJAN............

Who cares about lists...........I go by P-E-R-F-O-R-M-A-N-C-E....


I don't need a stinking.........list!!!

GIRLIE MEN NEED LISTS!!!!!


TRAJAN........DO YOU NEED A LIST?


Captain Kirk
Last edited by captainkirk
quote:
which Cold Cranking numbers are you talking about? Pennzoil 0w20 CCS Viscosity, cP (°C ) ASTM D-5293 5,600 (-35),AMSOIL 0w20 is only 4069. Pennzoil 0w20 is much thicker. No thanks.


Amsoil 0W-20 4069 @ -35

Castrol Edge 0W-20 3860 @ -35

Tim, I do not want to hear nor do I care about Castrol's Warranty or Amsoil's Warranty, nor do I care about Amsoil's 38 year history, I am living in the present not the past.

Until your beloved Amsoil 0W-20 beats Castrol Edge in the ASTM D-5293 test, which is not going to happen anytime soon, then I am saying NO THANKS to Amsoil 0W-20 and your annoying sales tactics.
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
quote:
which Cold Cranking numbers are you talking about? Pennzoil 0w20 CCS Viscosity, cP (°C ) ASTM D-5293 5,600 (-35),AMSOIL 0w20 is only 4069. Pennzoil 0w20 is much thicker. No thanks.


Amsoil 0W-20 4069 @ -35

Castrol Edge 0W-20 3860 @ -35

Tim, I do not want to hear nor do I care about Castrol's Warranty or Amsoil's Warranty, nor do I care about Amsoil's 38 year history, I am living in the present not the past.

Until your beloved Amsoil 0W-20 beats Castrol Edge in the ASTM D-5293 test, which is not going to happen anytime soon, then I am saying NO THANKS to Amsoil 0W-20 and your annoying sales tactics.


http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/asm.aspx


Why is castrol better.....'overall',than Amsoil.



Also,3800+- vs 4000+- at -35.......Meaningless...both will flow very good at that temp I would think
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
quote:
which Cold Cranking numbers are you talking about? Pennzoil 0w20 CCS Viscosity, cP (°C ) ASTM D-5293 5,600 (-35),AMSOIL 0w20 is only 4069. Pennzoil 0w20 is much thicker. No thanks.


Amsoil 0W-20 4069 @ -35

Castrol Edge 0W-20 3860 @ -35

Tim, I do not want to hear nor do I care about Castrol's Warranty or Amsoil's Warranty, nor do I care about Amsoil's 38 year history, I am living in the present not the past.

Until your beloved Amsoil 0W-20 beats Castrol Edge in the ASTM D-5293 test, which is not going to happen anytime soon, then I am saying NO THANKS to Amsoil 0W-20 and your annoying sales tactics.
And I'm saying NO THANKS to BP CASTROL for the largest environmental disaster in the United States. You really want to support a company like BP CASTROL with that environmental and safety record? I thought you were an American....
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
quote:
Why is castrol better.....'overall',than Amsoil.


Captain Kirk, it has a better 40 Degree Celcius and 100 degree Celcius Number, I just want a thin oil for the WINTERTIME, and I just feel that Castrol Edge 0W-20 will serve my engine better than Amsoil 0W-20
I just feel that AMSOIL will serve our country better than BP/Castrol who can now claim the worst environmental disaster in the history of our country, plus killed dozens of Americans. I can't believe any American would want to support such a company...
I am glad that somebody finally noticed and admitted that the AMSOIL trademark slogan is just that and nothing more no proof of anything, but continuation of the deceptive practices that AMSOIL has always used, going back to the myth of military service by it's founder - who was nothing more than a mechanic on base in Alaska.

As for volume and trade information if you buy ExxonMobil stock you get annual report - you can find their data there.

If you are member of the Lubricant Industry you get trade publications with all the data, and unlike some of you I do have a respect for Copyright, and since those publications are not FREE or available on Web to unregistered users, likewise I will not "steal" and reprint their data.

But I will give you the link to ordering their guide

http://www.lngpublishing.com/BaseStockGuide/index.cfm

Hint: No company can "sell" more product (like Mobil 1 with PAO) than is their production capacity, unless of course what they sell is NOT what they claim it to be - i.e. really dilluted with other stuf. Only 5 companies in the world produce and sell commercially PAO. It has NEVER been priced by the Gallon, the price was and always is quoted in pounds (or in Europe in Kg).
Last edited by mirokefurt
quote:
Originally posted by Miro Kefurt:
I am glad that somebody finally noticed and admitted that the AMSOIL trademark slogan is just that and nothing more no proof of anything, but continuation of the deceptive practices that AMSOIL has always used, going back to the myth of military service by it's founder - who was nothing more than a mechanic on base in Alaska.
Nobody has admitted that. Certainly not AMSOIL, nor the United States Patent and Trademark Office. Nor disputed by any oil company, government agency, or consumer agency. If you feel that strongly, take it up with the US government. But since they already investigated the claims thoroughly, I don't think you will have any luck.

quote:
Originally posted by Miro Kefurt:As for volume and trade information if you buy ExxonMobil stock you get annual report - you can find theri data there.
. Please post. I already posted Exxon data that conflicts with what you said.

quote:
Originally posted by Miro Kefurt:If you are member of the Lubricant Industry you get trade publications with all the data, and unlike some of you I do have a respect for Copyright, and since tose publications are not FREE or available on Web to unregistered users, likewise I will not "steal" and reprint their data.
The information I published was FREE on the internet. Please provide specific report names, page numbers and proof of Copyright. You already gave some data, with no proof of anything. Go to any retail store, dealership, oil change place and you will find they sell much more than the 2% synthetic oil that you claim.
quote:
Tim Vipond


Please just stick with:

Natural Organic soil supplements for your yard and garden

At least there you can grow two crops next to each other in the same garden and have "proof" that it really works in just one growing season.

Yet I have not seen a single AMSOIL dealer do that YET, why not ???

Hey just ask Al to send me a certified copy of his discharge papers, that is all the proof I need.

Till then I will go by what I already know and have known for years...

Short of that I just want to understand how someone not in the service for admitedly years was in that same time promoted from "pilot" to "squadron commander".

All you have to do is check the "history" AMSOIL published 26 years and 32 years ago - even those claims DO not match, but then COLONEL DRAKE was no COLONEL either, may by that is why this was "perpetrated".

Pouring ETO-85 into just another bottle (from the metal can it used to come in) is not exactly formulating the first Synthetic Motor Oil, especially since the can lid has "NOT FOR USE AS MOTOR LUBRICANT" on it from OEM.

But hey if you have worn out old PINTO, not much more damage can happen by using it especially in Alaska.
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
The information I published was FREE on the internet.


LOL

Ah so now any FREE Information on Internet becomes the new gospel.

"Well the Plaedians have just Landed using the LUXOR beam as a target destination, so I have to go, as I am a member of the extraterrestial welcoming commitee that really has only one objective to sperad unlimited gambling into the unknown universe!"

Must be true I found it on the Internet toooooo..........
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
quote:
which Cold Cranking numbers are you talking about? Pennzoil 0w20 CCS Viscosity, cP (°C ) ASTM D-5293 5,600 (-35),AMSOIL 0w20 is only 4069. Pennzoil 0w20 is much thicker. No thanks.


Amsoil 0W-20 4069 @ -35

Castrol Edge 0W-20 3860 @ -35

Tim, I do not want to hear nor do I care about Castrol's Warranty or Amsoil's Warranty, nor do I care about Amsoil's 38 year history, I am living in the present not the past.

Until your beloved Amsoil 0W-20 beats Castrol Edge in the ASTM D-5293 test, which is not going to happen anytime soon, then I am saying NO THANKS to Amsoil 0W-20 and your annoying sales tactics.
And I'm saying NO THANKS to BP CASTROL for the largest environmental disaster in the United States. You really want to support a company like BP CASTROL with that environmental and safety record? I thought you were an American....


And just what does that have to do with oil quality?
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
quote:
Why is castrol better.....'overall',than Amsoil.


Captain Kirk, it has a better 40 Degree Celcius and 100 degree Celcius Number, I just want a thin oil for the WINTERTIME, and I just feel that Castrol Edge 0W-20 will serve my engine better than Amsoil 0W-20
I just feel that AMSOIL will serve our country better than BP/Castrol who can now claim the worst environmental disaster in the history of our country, plus killed dozens of Americans. I can't believe any American would want to support such a company...


Is this what it has come to? Hysterics?
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:Amsoil Motor Oil is just too THICK, especially for the NORTHERN folks during the wintertime.

No it isn't. Look at the Pour Point and Cold Cranking numbers. None better. Pick the 0w-XX and all will be well. AMSOIL is VERY popular in cold climates.

Tim, lets look at some numbers of Redline 0W-20 versus Amsoil 0W-20

Pour Point for Amsoil 0W-20 is -65 Degrees Fahrenheit or -54 Degrees Celcius

Pour Point for Redline 0W-20 is -76 Degrees Fahrenheit or -60 Degrees Celcius

Lets look at some 40 Degree Celcius Numbers which is about 100 degrees Fahrenheit

Amsoil 0W-20 has a 40 Degree Celcius Number of 49.1

Redline 0W-20 has a 40 Degree Celcius Number of 43

What are these numbers telling me, since most of the wear in an engine is during the 1st 20 minutes of driving or maybe until the car is fully warmed up, since Redline 0W-20 has a lower Pour Point it will flow faster on startup, and during the warm up cycle since it has a lower 40 Degree Celcius Number it will flow faster and lubricate the parts in my engine quicker than Amsoil 0W-20

Tim, the Wear Statement I made, came from Gary Allan who is an Amsoil Salesman like yourself.

I almost forgot to mention the HTHS Number, that's High Temperature High Shear.

Amsoil 0W-20 has a HTHS Number of 2.8

Redline 0W-20 has a HTHS Number of 2.7
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
quote:
Why is castrol better.....'overall',than Amsoil.


Captain Kirk, it has a better 40 Degree Celcius and 100 degree Celcius Number, I just want a thin oil for the WINTERTIME, and I just feel that Castrol Edge 0W-20 will serve my engine better than Amsoil 0W-20
I just feel that AMSOIL will serve our country better than BP/Castrol who can now claim the worst environmental disaster in the history of our country, plus killed dozens of Americans. I can't believe any American would want to support such a company...


Is this what it has come to? Hysterics?


It seems so. Not to get into a pissing contest, the event in the Gulf is a tragic disaster. IIRC Exxon did a number in Alaska, with a drunken Super Tanker Captain in charge. I bet Amsoil does lots of business with XOM, so lets not throw stones in glass houses.

AD
quote:
It seems so. Not to get into a pissing contest, the event in the Gulf is a tragic disaster. IIRC Exxon did a number in Alaska, with a drunken Super Tanker Captain in charge. I bet Amsoil does lots of business with XOM, so lets not throw stones in glass houses.

AD


AD, Good Point, of course Exxon did not own Mobil at the time, but accidents do happen and when they do that should not mean that we stop buying oil from the company that caused the accident.

Exxon stayed in business, so that should tell us something.

Tim only brought up the BP thing becuase that is all that he could think of, he will say anything to sell Amsoil, his Sales Pitch is so pathetic that he now has to bring up an unfortunate disaster in order to push his agenda, real low, we will see how much lower this Amsoil Salesman will go.
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
quote:
It seems so. Not to get into a pissing contest, the event in the Gulf is a tragic disaster. IIRC Exxon did a number in Alaska, with a drunken Super Tanker Captain in charge. I bet Amsoil does lots of business with XOM, so lets not throw stones in glass houses.

AD


AD, Good Point, of course Exxon did not own Mobil at the time, but accidents do happen and when they do that should not mean that we stop buying oil from the company that caused the accident.

Exxon stayed in business, so that should tell us something.

Tim only brought up the BP thing becuase that is all that he could think of, he will say anything to sell Amsoil, his Sales Pitch is so pathetic that he now has to bring up an unfortunate disaster in order to push his agenda, real low, we will see how much lower this Amsoil Salesman will go.


If he is smart, he won't go down that road. Anyway, I'm off to buy some BP gas. $2.87 for 93 octane when Shell is $3.09 is a damn good deal.

If any troll has a problem with it, Americans work at that gas station.

To paraphrase a commercial, "Think with your wallet, Jimmy!!"
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
quote:
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I really hope no one goes down that road, but the cheap shot sort of got me. A lot of us think with our wallets, especially in lousy times like these.

AD


His cheap shot got to me as well. Uncalled for, and waaay beyond the scope of the thread.

Desperate people do desperate things.
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
quote:
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I really hope no one goes down that road, but the cheap shot sort of got me. A lot of us think with our wallets, especially in lousy times like these.

AD


His cheap shot got to me as well. Uncalled for, and waaay beyond the scope of the thread.

Desperate people do desperate things.


Yep!

I'm starting to like Edge, nice info Big Bear. Better cold pumping and taking less time to get to operating temps is a good thing.

AD
Amsoil, Inc. is a corporation based in Superior, Wisconsin that manufactures synthetic lubricants and filters. They were the first to manufacture a full synthetic motor oil, transmission fluid, and differential gear lube for automobiles. Due to this, their slogan is "The First in Synthetics."

History

Amsoil, Inc. was founded by Col. Al Amatuzio (USAF Retired) in 1972. Prior to founding Amsoil, Amatuzio was a fighter pilot, line maintenance officer, and squadron commander during the Cold War era. Having to use synthetic lubricants in the jet engines he maintained, he became aware of the significant benefits of using synthetic instead of petroleum-based oil.
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:

Miro, how can we find out the dirty truth about Big Al.

Is there anything else you can tell us.


You really want to rely on *this* guy for information?



He was right about your(trajan) short lived PEP job!


Oh? Right about a non-exsistent job? Can you prove that?
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:

Miro, how can we find out the dirty truth about Big Al.

Is there anything else you can tell us.


You really want to rely on *this* guy for information?



He was right about your(trajan) short lived PEP job!


Oh? Right about a non-exsistent job? Can you prove that?




1.TRAJAN............YOU HAVE FAILED TO DISPROVE IT NOW GOING ON SEVERAL MONTHS,SO IT MUST BE TRUE.

2.YOU NEVER HAVE STATED YOUR PROFESSION ON THAT NOTE,SO IT MUST BE TRUE.

3.YOU HAVE WAAAAAYYYY TOO MUCH FREE TIME,SO IT MUST BE TRUE.

4.YOU HATE SYNLUBE BECAUSE IT BROUGHT YOU DOWN WITH YOUR CAREER...WAY DOWN....SO IT ABSOLUTELY MUST BE TRUE!!


FOUR STRIKES...............AND YOU'RE OOOOUUUUUTTTTTTT!!!!!!!!!
Last edited by captainkirk
Not my place to prove what doesn't exsist. Well, I did prove that your buddy inhaliburton is an out and out liar. But that was child's play.

Also showed that your idol's so called operation in Mercury NV isn't there.

By your logic, even though we all know it, the accusations made on a certain website that your idol is a liar and a scam artist ia true. None of you have proved otherwise.

If it makes you feel better to think I ever worked for Shell, do so with my blessing. Not really my place to deprive you of your delusions.

It's one thing to prove that a deliberate lie by your cohort did not exsist. See the thread does not, and never did, exsist.

I don't have to prove I never worked for Shell, You know what they say about proving a negative. And what's more, I don't have to.

Perhaps, whenever you manage to pull your lips off ypur idol's crack, you'll ask Spock about the logic of accepting lies that you can't possibly prove are not.

Let's see the proof. Not insinuations or that other nonsense you lap up because they're spoken by a scammer. But real, verifiable, unvarnished, proof.

Since it doesn't exsist, because it never happenned, you have your work cut out for you.

I suppose, also following your logic, that since he never denied it, he really did murder his parents.

Good job. You're a groupie to a double murderer.
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
Not my place to prove what doesn't exsist. Well, I did prove that your buddy inhaliburton is an out and out liar. But that was child's play.

Also showed that your idol's so called operation in Mercury NV isn't there.

By your logic, even though we all know it, the accusations made on a certain website that your idol is a liar and a scam artist ia true. None of you have proved otherwise.

If it makes you feel better to think I ever worked for Shell, do so with my blessing. Not really my place to deprive you of your delusions.

It's one thing to prove that a deliberate lie by your cohort did not exsist. See the thread does not, and never did, exsist.

I don't have to prove I never worked for Shell, You know what they say about proving a negative. And what's more, I don't have to.

Perhaps, whenever you manage to pull your lips off ypur idol's crack, you'll ask Spock about the logic of accepting lies that you can't possibly prove are not.

Let's see the proof. Not insinuations or that other nonsense you lap up because they're spoken by a scammer. But real, verifiable, unvarnished, proof.

Since it doesn't exsist, because it never happenned, you have your work cut out for you.

I suppose, also following your logic, that since he never denied it, he really did murder his parents.

Good job. You're a groupie to a double murderer.


--------------------------------------------

TRAJAN..............YOU'RE RAMBLING AND INCOHERENT,AGAIN!!! NOW YOU'VE CROSSED THE LINE WITH THE GROUPIE REMARK!!!!!!!


Seems to be like pulling a lever,or pushing a button when I mention the "PEP" incident.

Almost everyone on this forum has stated their chosen profession........EXCEPT YOU..........THE EX PEP SALESMAN WHO JUST COMMITTED AN ACT OF MORAL TURPITUDE......AGAIN!!!!!!!!

The only liar.......is you Trajan,not inHaliburton. You have now gone below just Lying at this point...... WAY,WAY BELOW!!!!
Last edited by captainkirk
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:

Miro, how can we find out the dirty truth about Big Al.

Is there anything else you can tell us.


You really want to rely on *this* guy for information?

He's got more on the ball than you will ever have, Trajan. You're the master of the cheap shot. The sign of a bitter man.

By the way, where's that car that your neighbour owns that sludged up from using Synlube?

See what I mean? Trajan the liar.

Well, boy?
"We receive about 20 miscellaneous vehicle warranty claims per year," reported Albert’s son, Alan Amatuzio, executive vice president and chief operating officer. "We investigate each one comprehensively, examine maintenance records, mileage, type of service and repair invoices. We conduct phone interviews and hire independent expert investigators and engineers to review failed parts and write an Investigative Findings Report documenting our results and send it to the claimant. "Only in rare instances when we cannot find an explanation for the problem, even though the lubricant is not to blame, do we accept a claim.

Guys, I found this on an Amsoil Dealers Site, it seems to me that anyone who submits a Warranty Claim to Amsoil is going to get an in depth investigation, it does not sound like Amsoil is going to just hand you the money right away to get your engine fixed.

1) Investigate each one COMPREHENSIVELY
2) Examine Maintenance Records
3) Mileage
4) Type of Service
5) Repairs
6) Phone Interviews
7) Hire Independent expert investigators and engineers to review failed parts and write an Investigative Findings Report DOCUMENTING our results and send it to the claimant.

These words are from the owner's son who is an executive vice president and chief operating officer.

Tim, our Amsoil Pusher on here said a Warranty Claim would be cleared up very quickly, from what Alan Amatuzio has said it just does not seem like what Tim is saying is really TRUTHFUL.
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:


--------------------------------------------

TRAJAN..............YOU'RE RAMBLING AND INCOHERENT,AGAIN!!! NOW YOU'VE CROSSED THE LINE WITH THE GROUPIE REMARK!!!!!!!


Seems to be like pulling a lever,or pushing a button when I mention the "PEP" incident.

Almost everyone on this forum has stated their chosen profession........EXCEPT YOU..........THE EX PEP SALESMAN WHO JUST COMMITTED AN ACT OF MORAL TURPITUDE......AGAIN!!!!!!!!

The only liar.......is you Trajan,not inHaliburton. You have now gone below just Lying at this point...... WAY,WAY BELOW!!!!


Capt. Kirk, Trajan's a bitter person. Can't blame him, though. The Shell/PEP thing did him in. His wiser-than-him wife took off when she found out he's a crooked thief and a loser. Let him wallow in his hatred for Miro, Synlube, you and me. If he hasn't already, he'll have ulcers. Smile

He calls me a liar. Tell me Trajan, when did I tell a lie?

Talking abour liars, where's that engine belonging to a neighbour down the street with the sludged motor from using Synlube? Can you show us a pic?

I think we all know who the liar is, don't we, Trajan?

Well, boy?
I'm starting to like Edge, nice info Big Bear. Better cold pumping and taking less time to get to operating temps is a good thing.

AD


US Navy. Helping keep us safe.

AD, I am running Pennzoil Platinum 5W-20 in my car during the warm weather, but I plan on running Castrol Edge 0W-20 from October until late April since that is when I see the coldest temps in my area. I usually drive the car about 10 to 20 miles and then shut it off for a certain number of hours and then drive back home. My type of driving is not best for an oil like Amsoil, nor is my driving style good for extended drains with Amsoil.

If I lived near the Interstate and drove 50 miles up the Highway and my work was a mile or so off the interstate, and then I drove 50 miles back home, this would be 100 miles each day, so 500 miles a week times 50 weeks and I would have about 25,000 miles a year, so Amsoil would be great in this situation, I am thinking very few people drive there cars like this.

I have heard that about 85% of your wear is during startup or until your engine gets up to operating temps, so if that is the case, and especially during cold weather I want a thinner oil, in the late spring and summer I am not as concerned about the starting temp of the oil because it is probably at a starting temp like 70 degrees or so and it will flow very well.
To me the Edge just makes more sense. It pumps better in a 0w20 than just about any oil I've seen, the 40*C numbers are the best I've seen as well. Since I only drive about 100 miles a week now, I feel it will protect better for my short hopp'in than any 20 grade oil there is. If I thought something was better I'd use it.

If I were driving under the conditions your talking about it would still be a good deal. It pumps better when cold, and gets to its desired viscosity faster, win win in my book.


Hey Bear, did you check out big Al on that link? I can't do it from here for some reason.

AD
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AD, it looks like this could be a long process, I will see if there is a better way to find out the info.
quote:
They can, and do, require whatever oil you use to meet said specs for warranty coverage.


No. They don't. If you're using the spec'd fluids under the prescribed intervals, the manufacture has no recourse in a lubrication related failure.

If a lubrication related failure occurs, whether spec'd fluids are use or not, the lubricant has to be the reason for the failure to deny warranty.

I'm sure you can see the difference between what I stated and what you did.
Sounds like you might be an Amsoil dealer. What happens in the case where lets say Ford calls for 5W20 oil, no other choice. Amsoil site says 0W30 SSO is GTG in the app. Oil failure occurs, Ford says 0W30 is NG. Amsoil says it was, and then goes thru their "process" to avoid a pay out. Is it worth the hassle?

Please lets not hear it never happened in 38 years, or the MM act that's getting old. The flawed filters is proof the company is far from perfect, but then no oil company is.

Please note I'm looking for an answer, not trying to fire Tim up and start another 50 page Amsoil sales pitch thread. You seem to have a level head in your replies.

Thanks
AD
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
Sounds like you might be an Amsoil dealer. What happens in the case where lets say Ford calls for 5W20 oil, no other choice. Amsoil site says 0W30 SSO is GTG in the app. Oil failure occurs, Ford says 0W30 is NG. Amsoil says it was, and then goes thru their "process" to avoid a pay out. Is it worth the hassle?

Thanks
AD


Ford still has to prove that the lube was responsible for the failure. It would be the same with Ford saying 10k miles is NG. Ford themselves spec's all kinds of viscosity fluids for the same engines worldwide and even dealers don't adhere to all of Ford's recommendations for 5w-20 oil.
quote:
Originally posted by BKL98MK8LSC:
After ford denied your warranty claim,did amsoil pick up the bill javier?



I didn't read the thread, but I'd figure if it was Amsoil, they'd be looking long and hard for a way out. JMO

Moral of the story, use the recommended oil, for the suggested interval, and live happily ever after.

AD
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
quote:
Originally posted by BKL98MK8LSC:
After ford denied your warranty claim,did amsoil pick up the bill javier?



I didn't read the thread, but I'd figure if it was Amsoil, they'd be looking long and hard for a way out. JMO





Moral of the story, use the recommended oil, for the suggested interval, and live happily ever after.

AD




I read the whole thread and that was the moral of the story. Interesting that this guy would never admit that he was using amsoil. A few posters on the other thread guessed it and he just admitted it here. The navistar diesels that ford has been using are like A curse. No sense at all using the wrong product AND not changing the oil in a defective engine.
FRom Here:
6.0 PowerStroke bulletins
6.0 Oil Recommendations:
Some trucks with the 6.0 may exhibit hard starting, rough running and lack of power in cold temperatures, particularly on a cold start. This may be due to the oil being to thick for the operating conditions. Ford is recommending to use the following oils for the listed operating temperature.


SAE 15W-40 is the preferred oil above 30 degrees, but it is acceptable for use down to 10 degrees, and is recommended for towing down to this temperature.
SAE 10W-30 is the preferred weight between -10 to 30 degrees.
SAE 5W-30 and 5W-40 is acceptable for use below 30 degrees, and 0W-30 is acceptable below zero.
(All temperatures are in Fahrenheit.)
The oil used should meet Ford's specification of WSS-M2C171-D or API CI-4 PLUS, CI-4/SL or DHD-1. CH-4 is acceptable for use if CI-4 PLUS is not available. TSB #05-16-6.
Keep in mind that CI-4 oil is designed for the increased soot contamination and higher coolant temperatures of cooled EGR systems on a diesel; CH-4 is not.
Nowhere does the TSB mention synthetic versus conventional oil recomendations or ranges.
Ford has not released anything recommending NOT to use a specific brand of oil.
Reply With Quote
30 weight is pretty thin for Florida.
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by BKL98MK8LSC:
After ford denied your warranty claim,did amsoil pick up the bill javier?


Ad said.....
I didn't read the thread, but I'd figure if it was Amsoil, they'd be looking long and hard for a way out. JMO


------------------------------------------------------
Well Ad,you should have read the thread before you posted. Amsoil,nor any lube company wouldn't need to "look long and hard" as you say for a way out............the coolant leak says it all.

The massive coolant leak into the oil is the issue,not the oil. The MFG is the one always looking for a way out,in this case ford.
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
One of those few times we agree Kirk. In this case the coolant leak is pretty obvious. Take away the coolant leak and the oil company would be looking long and hard for a way out.

AD


Impossible for the oil company to look long and hard if you follow their directions.

If you change the oil using the 'severe service' category,what could they find.

If the engine has issues....thus far historically..........

IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN ENGINE ISSUES UNRELATED TO THE SYNTHETIC OIL USED,IN THIS CASE...AMSOIL VS FORD.

Even when cheap oil was used that actually was causing sludge build up across almost all makes and models,the mfg's were the ones who got sued/blamed,when it should have been the oil companies that got sued(big oil in this case).

No one ever really gets that except me?

Motorists were basically running garbage for lube,unless they were using 100% synthetic PAO,or something very close.

That is the reason for GM creating a dexos standard,and also the European oil standards that practically mock the API standards.
We almost agree again. I've always followed SS recommendations. Being born and raised in NY everything we owned fell into SS categories. Just ride on the LIE, GCP, or Southern State on a beach day during rush hour and you'll see why. Forget the commute into NYC. The odds of us having an oil related engine failure are slim to none.

My comments are hypothetical, but could become reality. IMO any oil company will look for an out, Amsoil is no exception, and has one other strike against it, the API starburst for their high end products.

My father taught me to follow recommendations, use what the mfg, "suggests", it will keep me out of trouble. Why hassle the MM act? The only one who benefits from that is a lawyer. Risk to reward ratio tells me to follow recommendations. Now if I was making a living selling Amsoil, I'd have a different view. I don't sell it and won't sell it.

BTW the tone of this recent discussion is refreshing!

AD

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