oil analysis/particle debris analysis

Sam,

Condition monitoring is best applied to large systems and larger the better, hence it is best utilised for corporations having large fleets.

The science behind it is quite simple, the larger the body or mass or fluid the more time the lube has to 'rest.' During the process, the material and energy balances (MEB) are maintained and the fluid "recuperates and rejunevates." Further baffles in tanks allow the finest of wear and metallic debris to "precipitate." Additionally on line filters remove bulk of the wear debris. Many OE's recommend a sump size of ten to twelve times the flowrate.

Major engine manufacturers ( marine engine manufacturers ) like Wartsila recommend ( demand would be more appropriate) a "finite lube life" based on changes to lubricant. The drain is based on depletion of TBN, drop in viscosity, "water content," Flash Point.

MANN feels differently. German engineers feel lube has "infinite life" provided water content and Flash points are in order. This means lubes can be used for thousands of hours if viscosity and TBN are maintained. This can easily be done by a process of 'sweetening", where I higher TBN oil is charged to compensate for drop in TBN, in short TBN is boosted. Similiarly viscosity too can be corrected by addtion SAE 30 or SAE 50 oil to meet SAE 40 requirements.

It is against this background of extending lubricant life and thereby obtain economy that condition monitoring finds its rightful place.

In India condition monitoring or regular analysis is provided by the MNC Lubricant suppliers, like Castrol, Shell, Mobil etc.. who provide a wear metal analysis by ICP technique. The services provided by IOC, HPCL, BPCL leave much to be desired.

Predict Technologies, a US based company provides Ferrography through its labs in India. It may be noted that wear analysis by Ferrography is adopted for advanced wear. This means that this process is capable of doing analysis for large particle sizes only (+ 12 microns or thereabouts). For wear analysis of smaller particles ICP is the quite reliable.

Submission of wear analysis ( by email/courier) is followed up with a visit by the Lube representative, who discusses various aspect of the report and recommends suitable action. Trend or graphical representation is done to map the metals and indicate 1. safe limits 2. Go-no-go signal and 3. Danger zone.

Hussam Adeni

thanks for ur guidance sir.
firstly,the fleet is of the order of approx 1000-1200...and a fairly large eqpt.
could u please guide me on
a) where can i access these facilities at delhi/north India...particularly of MNCs,to learn the capabilities and if possible feasibility of using them on contractual basis? and Predict Technologies too.
b) ICP involves setting up of static centralised facility.are there any mobile/portable testers,which may be less informative but could be inexpensive and used at 20-30 places,before sending to centralised facility(in case of expected major problem).
thanks in anticipation

Sam,

Oil Analysis Lab should give you

1.Machine condition
2.Oil Condition
3.Contaminant Condition.

4.Lab Turnaround time should be 48 Hrs.

5.Lab Interpretor should understand maintenance
practices,metallurgy,experience in data evaluation.

Oil analysis will not be beneficial if above
points are not met.

Bala.

Sam,

The lube supplier would be the first source of lube analysis reports and wear metal analysis. If your lube supplier is IOC, HP, BPCL, God bless you.

If your have not contracted your fuel & lube requirement ensure that the Lube order is released with provision for testing and analysis of lubes, including wear metal analysis every 5000 kms and every 1000 kms thereafter. Demand that a Technical sales or service Representative of the lube supplier visits you twice a month to discuss the trends and patterns.

In fact with a fleet of 1000 vehicles you can demand that the Lube supplier post a Service representative at your unit ( providing all 1000 vehicles use the same base station ).

While in Castrol I have submitted offers to clients which incorporated above actions. Further if customer was willing to sign

1.Five year lube oil contract with a mutually agreed "price escalation clause".

2.The minimum order requirement 500 kl per annum.

We would offer to the following:

a) Post an Service Executive at customers site.

b) At our expense, set up basic laboratory to test oil (except ICP equipment) and train customers chemist. Operation of the lab to be customers account.

c) Set up a storage tank at our expense for a 20 Kl and 10 kl storage tank, which would be the property of the customer at end of the 5 years contract. However the Storage tank to carry our signage/signalization visible from at least 100 feet.

d) Provide wear metals analysis every 5000 km and every 1000 km thereafter.

Most of the offer were not acceptable as NO ONE WAS WILLING TO SIGN THE FIVE YEAR MUTUALLY AGREED PRICE ESCALATION CONTRACT.

Even today I feel our offering was among the best in the Lube industry.

You may like to discuss above offer with your client.

Hussam Adeni

sir
could u please elaborate on 'basic laboratory to test oil',coz this is the basic requirement here,as the equipment is located at various places,with population of 20 at some places to 100 at other places.
yes the central facility having ICP could be suggested at delhi.
what are the approx equivalents of kilometerage to running hours,for sometimes cumulative vintage may be required.
where all is this ICP installed around MP and above?
and do these age limits (km or hrs) remain the same for compressors and gearboxes;ie irrespective of application,the analysis depends on oil or visa-versa.
thanks a lot,everyone for practical guidance.

Sam,

I am pasting below names of three companies who can provide lube analysis.

1. IIPM - Orissa
Indian Institute for Production Management
Kansbahal - 770 034, Near Rourkela, Orissa, INDIA
Telephone Number +91-6624-280322/948/576 | FAX : +91-6624-280122


2. Predict India - Hyderabad
Mr.S.K.Mehta
Managing Director
skm@predictindia.com
For any general information, write to info@predictindia.com.

3. S & S Industries
C-15, Sector - 7
Noida, U.P. - 201301 (INDIA)

Tel : +91-120-2423191/ 207/ 523/ 382
Fax : +91-120-2423654
Email : ssengg@giasdl01.vsnl.net.in

Contact Person : Mr. Mahesh Gupta

S & S Engg makes portable kits useful for various lube tests. They are based near Delhi.

Trust you will find the info useful.

Hussam Adeni

The intiator of this mail seems to be from IIPM if I am not wrong.
So he knows the source in east
In north SS Engg only supplies the kits and chemicals for analysis.
IIP Deradhun has a tribological lab including SRV testing facility and FZG Test rigs and good engine performance test facility and lot of oil companies are associated with them.
IIT Delhi has SRV machine and runs a masters degree on Tribology. Ihad interactions with thembut really did not understand their application knowledge.
I am not aware of any othe lab in North.
regards
Arupanjan

hi
i have another point to seek discussion i.e. with wear debris analysis and oil analysis, essentially/primarily off-line techniques, what is the prospect of WDA as on-line detection/diagnosis,in early wear region.

also during the life of an equipment,WDA is advised during infant mortality, random failure and wear-out stages,while oil analysis is recommended during random failure region and wear out.since max life time is during random failure region,which analysis shall be more informative and priority number one?
sir,like i pointed out,to invest and therefore provide take-off of this very effective project, i would like to project the minimum as well as maximum resources.
i wish to express my sincere thanks to everyone who seems to unfurl a little bit more towards this post.

hi
what all other such active forums are suggested please.

first of all few clarification from your side.What is the differce between oil analysis and WDA?. As my knowledge goes WDA is a form of oil analysis with a specific type of objective.
2ndly can some do WDA on line except for Direct reading(DR) ferrography and thtas a go or no go test like?It does not add significant value.
Third during infant mortality period WDA IS A MISLEADING indication of equipment health.
Fourthly
The objective of oil analysis and equipment in question will determine the type of analysis that is -if it is an engine I will go for Spectrgraphy, if its a gear or hydraulic oil I will go for DR froography folowed bvy WDA and if necessary followed by Spectro or FTIR.
So once these questions are answered
I think rest of the things are easy.
Again as for resources you need to compare what is that you can allow.
regards

well, theoritically the difference in capability during early wear:
oil analysis monitors changes in lubricant properties and condition.it detects solid and fluid contaminants before wear occurs.
wear debris analysis is capable to monitor wear severity and type of wear.
secondly,during infant mortality the WDA measures increase in wear severity by high rate of wear debris generation.
thirdly, on line determination of wear particle size and shape can also be achieved through the use of optically based monitoring technology,designated as 'LaserNet Fines'.this technique is presently under development by USNRL at washington DC,with the intention of making it available for use by industry.basically this technique uses a pulsed laser diode illumination through a flowing liquid colomn.artificial neural networks have been trained using debris obtained from controlled lab tests.
what i actually was aiming to ask is-
if the equipment is new-is WDA preferred over oil analysis and what about random life and wear out?
also why only spectrography in case of an engine,and ferrography followed by spectrography in case of gear or hydraulic oil?
i hope,i am somewhere near correct,coz experience is less.

Well let me put some priorities and objectives clear.
Oil Analysis-the objective is to determine the condition of the machine primarily and oil senconderily as the cost of the machine is much higher than the oil.
Oil properties are also checked as a part of the test in WDA as to certify or check if there is an abnormal wear.
In any case during infant mortality the wear rate is high, and hence the results are misleading.
As in case of on lne methods the instrument should be costeffective and hence very high price system is not effective in industrial use
May be in crtical space conditions we can use sophisticated systems.
As to WDA, and oil analysis, as you have put it differently, depend on the objective and importance you place on the whole system.If you want to save and test the oil- go for oil analysis parameter but if you want the machine condition test for WDA, and its always WDA folowed by oil analysis.
As a matter of comment on why spctro for Engingine oils it is to check the fuel dilution in engigine oil which cheks the Lub propoerty of the engine oil,which is the main property to avoid engine seizure as well as blowby by checking the vanadium content in engine oils from fuels.
Spectroscopy has a limitation of results above 10 micron which is a normal wear in case of Hydraulic and gear oils and hence spectro doesnot justify cost as well as the results.
Hence Ferrography is the solutiion.
Hope I could clarify the points.

yes the points have been driven home.thanks.
i'll also share the info:ssengg offers their kit at approx rs14000/- per kit.
however,can oil analysis be used as a precursor to more expensive and lesser available test machines for WDA? i mean if 200 such portable kits are used to keep track of lube oil for 1000 differently located equipments,regularly say every 70-100km of run,and only subjected to WDA when variation is quite obvious.how effective can this proposal be,say for engine oil?
i surely would like to get info,if any other supplier has an alternative test-kit.

hi
may i also request someone,who has used such kits,for the duration for which they remain usable-no of tests or no of years.
and are there any standards(ISO,BIS for oil analysis and WDA for engines,gearbox etc).
thanks in anticipation

Sam,

Try SKF, India. A few years ago they had introduced a hand held oil tester. If I recall correctly it possibly measured the die-electric constant of the oil and gave a signal of "GO or NO-GO".

Hussam Adeni

It seemed rotary particle depositor is more economical and would be landing up with a cost of analysis of Rs 600 persample and asfar as other things are concerned I have to get back on the cost part
But SKF oil testers may be giving results but I am not sure if they are commercially available now.

hi
OilCheck Oil Condition Monitor TMEH 1 costs around $1195 (US cost)-compact (250mm x 95mm x 32mm) unit that will last for more than 150 hours or 3,000 tests on one 9V alkaline battery.The SKF OilCheck is not an analytical instrument. It is an instrument to detect only changes in the oil condition. The visual and numerical read-outs are purely a guide to enable trending of the comparative readings of a good oil to a used oil of the same type and brand.
* Shows changes in oil condition affected by such things as:
Water content
Fuel contamination
Metallic content
Oxidation

howevr,skf-india is slow to respond.thanks mr hussam adeni.has anybody used this instrument please.

Sam,

Pls visit this site

http://www.mmel.biz/

Lots of info you will find interesting.

Hussam Adeni

Sam,

Particle quantifier can be used as a screening
test for engines,gear boxes,compressors.Gross
deviation from baseline is an indication of
failure mode in progress.simple microscope
analysis can be performed to verify the particle
shape and sizes.Both particle quantifier and
optical microscope is inexpensive.

Physical tests like viscosity,TBN,TAN,Mositure
can be performed by Test kits by kittiwake.
Here you go www.kittiwake.com

Bala.



Bala.

Are there any suppliers of spectrometers, viscometers,TBN tester etc,particularly for oil analysis of engine lube oils in India.
thanks in anticipation

quote:

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Originally posted by Hussam Adeni:
Sam,

Condition monitoring is best applied to large systems and larger the better, hence it is best utilised for corporations having large fleets.

The science behind it is quite simple, the larger the body or mass or fluid the more time the lube has to 'rest.' During the process, the material and energy balances (MEB) are maintained and the fluid "recuperates and rejunevates." Further baffles in tanks allow the finest of wear and metallic debris to "precipitate." Additionally on line filters remove bulk of the wear debris. Many OE's recommend a sump size of ten to twelve times the flowrate.

Major engine manufacturers ( marine engine manufacturers ) like Wartsila recommend ( demand would be more appropriate) a "finite lube life" based on changes to lubricant. The drain is based on depletion of TBN, drop in viscosity, "water content," Flash Point.

MANN feels differently. German engineers feel lube has "infinite life" provided water content and Flash points are in order. This means lubes can be used for thousands of hours if viscosity and TBN are maintained. This can easily be done by a process of 'sweetening", where I higher TBN oil is charged to compensate for drop in TBN, in short TBN is boosted. Similiarly viscosity too can be corrected by addtion SAE 30 or SAE 50 oil to meet SAE 40 requirements.

It is against this background of extending lubricant life and thereby obtain economy that condition monitoring finds its rightful place.

In India condition monitoring or regular analysis is provided by the MNC Lubricant suppliers, like Castrol, Shell, Mobil etc.. who provide a wear metal analysis by ICP technique. The services provided by IOC, HPCL, BPCL leave much to be desired.

Predict Technologies, a US based company provides Ferrography through its labs in India. It may be noted that wear analysis by Ferrography is adopted for advanced wear. This means that this process is capable of doing analysis for large particle sizes only (+ 12 microns or thereabouts). For wear analysis of smaller particles ICP is the quite reliable.

Submission of wear analysis ( by email/courier) is followed up with a visit by the Lube representative, who discusses various aspect of the report and recommends suitable action. Trend or graphical representation is done to map the metals and indicate 1. safe limits 2. Go-no-go signal and 3. Danger zone.

Hussam Adeni

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thanx for quoting, aprevious comment.but still my requirement is to find out companies : manufacturers, suppliers, marketing the spectrometers,ferrography equipments in India.