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Oil Decision Time.

T trajanMember
It's near time for the 8k mile oil change for the car in my sig.

There are three things I look for in an oil.

1: API rating. It has to have the starburst on the container. If it does not have it, then I don't look any further.

2: ACEA rating. It has to have a HTHS of at least 3.5. So that means it has to be A3 or better. I've read that you can go to a higher A rating, but not lower. So if it's A1, it's rejected.

3: MFG approval. A great deal of money is spent on R&D to make sure the oil can handle the engine. Auto makers work closely with oil companies on that point. BMW works with Castrol, as does Audi/VW though other companies will pony up the money to test their oils. It's the same with Porsche/Mobil, Ferrari/Shell, etc.

Other companies also work with the auto makers. BMW factory fills with Castrol, but Valvoline/Mobil/Pennzoil also have BMW approvals for some of their oil. Porsche has over 100 approved oils, but factory fill with Mobil 1.

My point? Engine makers know more about their engines than anyone. So I'm a big proponent of using mfg approved oil in my engine.

So it is LL-01 for me. It is a point that I can bend on a little though, as my 6yr/100k mile warranty is up.


The next post will be a list of oils I'm looking at, and finally, the one that is my choice.

Feel free to advise, but within the paramaters. (LL-01 isn't an absolute.)
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T trajanMember
In no paticular order:
Motul 8100 X-MAX 5W-30
http://matrixsyntheticoils.com...0%20x-max%205w30.pdf

Castrol Syntec SAE 0W-30 European Formula (Meets all the specs.)

Castrol Syntec SAE 5W-40 European Formula (Ll-98 instead of 01 but meets the other two.)

Liqui Moly Leichtlauf Special LL 5W-30 (meets all)

Mobil 1 0w-40 (Meets all) The flagship as far as I'm concerned. Can't argue with Aston Martin, Porsche, Mercedes AMG either. My favorite oil.

Pento High Performance 5W-30 (Meets all)

Pennzoil Ultra 5W-40 Euro (I understand Pennzoil is going to set a link on their site so we can buy it. It's hard to find.)

Q HorsePower SAE 5W-40 (as of 2007 LL-01 approval was pending)

I know one who ran uses Motul in his M3 and is happy with it. It is also expensive compared to the M1.
B blk98mk8lscMember
http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html
Note the timing gears from the 2.5 Boxster M96 engine. 0-40 M1 with excessive oil change interval. It was specified by the factory. Government regs have a great deal to do with current oil specs. Any of the products you have listed for consideration will be OK BUT chose an interval that suits the one you choose. Error on the side of caution. Any of the synthetic products listed are overkill,especially if the change interval is shortened. I treat my toys better than I have to,so no lecture here about spending more than you have to. DO WHAT YOU LIKE. You must have some opinion about what you do and dont want.
A adfd1Member
Castrol Syntec SAE 0W-30 European Formula (Meets all the specs.) That would be my choice, seems to be a favorite oil for many drivers, with tons of data backing it up. Save the thicker stuff for if/when you ever have oil use problems. The other nice thing about the Castrol product is it is pretty easy to get, no jumping through hoops.

I have a few Shipmates using Castrol in BMW and they're all happy with it, engines are staying clean. We had the VC off one at the Hobby Shack not long ago, 100,000+ on the clock and clean as a bell using GC 0W30.

AD
T trajanMember
quote:
Originally posted by BKL98MK8LSC:
http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html
Note the timing gears from the 2.5 Boxster M96 engine. 0-40 M1 with excessive oil change interval. It was specified by the factory. Government regs have a great deal to do with current oil specs. Any of the products you have listed for consideration will be OK BUT chose an interval that suits the one you choose. Error on the side of caution. Any of the synthetic products listed are overkill,especially if the change interval is shortened. I treat my toys better than I have to,so no lecture here about spending more than you have to. DO WHAT YOU LIKE. You must have some opinion about what you do and dont want.


My OCI is normally @8K miles. Even under warranty I changed it halfway through. (I treat my toys better than I have to as well Smile)

I do have an opinion, thus the parameters I mentioned. But feel free to offer your advice. I may not heed it, but I won't bite your head off.

FWIW, I burn a qt /6k miles.
Last edited by trajan
T trajanMember
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
Castrol Syntec SAE 0W-30 European Formula (Meets all the specs.) That would be my choice, seems to be a favorite oil for many drivers, with tons of data backing it up. Save the thicker stuff for if/when you ever have oil use problems. The other nice thing about the Castrol product is it is pretty easy to get, no jumping through hoops.

I have a few Shipmates using Castrol in BMW and they're all happy with it, engines are staying clean. We had the VC off one at the Hobby Shack not long ago, 100,000+ on the clock and clean as a bell using GC 0W30.

AD


GC is a very good oil. I've used it a few times. The factory fill is rebadged Castrol TXT 5w-30.

There is one oil I didn't mention, though I'm using it. Mobil 1 TDT 5w-40.

Miscommunication between myself and my mechanic led to that. My fault that was. I wanted the Pz-5w-40, but the distributor didn't have it listed. (Common as we've heard over at BITOG). So I said "The M1 then.", meaning the 0w-40. Oops.....

Anyway, I looked up the specs, and was really surprised at the HTHS of 3.9, which is a tad higher the their 0w-40.
B bigbearMember
Trajan, what type of driving do you do, I remember corresponding with a member on BITOG about a particular 0W-20 motor oil that was rated for 25,000 miles or 1 year under normal service and 15,000 miles or one year under sever service, he asked me how many miles I drove the car a day, I said 20 miles to work and 20 miles back home, he recommended a 7500 mile OCI.

So, with what he told me, I am using PP 5W-20 and doing 5000 mile OCI's.

This person was a member of Terry Dyson's Blog, and he did not try to push Biosyn on me.
B blk98mk8lscMember
Im hesitant to recommend any product that I dont use myself or have any experience with. I can tell you the I use DELVAC 1 5-40 and lubrication engineers monolec SPB 5-30 in my own cars and trucks with no complaints. I also use lucas pure synthetic additive in some applications.Ive found it to be A very different product than their standard gorilla snot stabilizer. All depends on application and usage.
T trajanMember
quote:
Originally posted by BKL98MK8LSC:
Im hesitant to recommend any product that I dont use myself or have any experience with. I can tell you the I use DELVAC 1 5-40 and lubrication engineers monolec SPB 5-30 in my own cars and trucks with no complaints. I also use lucas pure synthetic additive in some applications.Ive found it to be A very different product than their standard gorilla snot stabilizer. All depends on application and usage.


I came across this here: http://forums.bimmerforums.com...wthread.php?t=265292

"A note concerning Mobil 1 5w-40 SUV oil. I know that somebody is going to go to buy this and say "hey it doesn't say ACEA A3 on the back." They are correct. The 5w-40 oil repackaged Mobil Delvac 1, a Synthetic Heavy Duty Engine oil originally designed for trucks and fleet vehicles. This oil is slightly heavier than the 0w-40 and has an HTHS of 4.1. It meets ACEA E3,4 & 5 which are diesal requirements but still require an HTHS of greater than 3.5."

If it's the same as yours, that would be a good choice. I favor the higher HTHS numbers myself.

I hesitate to recommend oils I don't use too. In general though, I think an ACEA A3 oil is stouter than an non rated one of the same weight. JMHO though.
Last edited by trajan
T trajanMember
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
Trajan, what type of driving do you do, I remember corresponding with a member on BITOG about a particular 0W-20 motor oil that was rated for 25,000 miles or 1 year under normal service and 15,000 miles or one year under sever service, he asked me how many miles I drove the car a day, I said 20 miles to work and 20 miles back home, he recommended a 7500 mile OCI.

So, with what he told me, I am using PP 5W-20 and doing 5000 mile OCI's.

This person was a member of Terry Dyson's Blog, and he did not try to push Biosyn on me.


It's a car built for high speed/high rpm driving all day Smile

But seriously now. Most of my driving is highway. I'm about 1/2 mile or less from an expressway. Usually shift @2-2.5k, but once in awhile I rip it to 6k or do the Itailian tuneup.

No track days. But I average about 20K miles a year. (Bought it 4/06 with 10,300 miles, just turned 113,000 today.)
B bigbearMember
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
Trajan, what type of driving do you do, I remember corresponding with a member on BITOG about a particular 0W-20 motor oil that was rated for 25,000 miles or 1 year under normal service and 15,000 miles or one year under sever service, he asked me how many miles I drove the car a day, I said 20 miles to work and 20 miles back home, he recommended a 7500 mile OCI.

So, with what he told me, I am using PP 5W-20 and doing 5000 mile OCI's.

This person was a member of Terry Dyson's Blog, and he did not try to push Biosyn on me.


It's a car built for high speed/high rpm driving all day Smile

But seriously now. Most of my driving is highway. I'm about 1/2 mile or less from an expressway. Usually shift @2-2.5k, but once in awhile I rip it to 6k or do the Itailian tuneup.

No track days. But I average about 20K miles a year. (Bought it 4/06 with 10,300 miles, just turned 113,000 today.)


Since you do Highway Driving, I am guessing your driving at least 30 miles or so one way, and about 30 miles back, regardless of how many miles you drive on the highway, this is not stop and go driving, so 8000 mile OCI's should be fine.

If this car were seeing mostly stop and go driving or short trips then I would be more concerned with the oil choice. JMO
D deltonadaveMember
The only thing with RP, is they keep the HTHS a secret, but if the 0W-40 meets A3 spec., It would be a good bet it will meet LL-01. I have started using Synthetics in just about everything now, although Dino's are just about as good. The Wife's Altima is filled with PYB for a 3000 OCI (because I received a few jugs from a friend). She does a lot of short trips. Next OCI will be PP or PU.

I have not been scalloping in a few years, so should be fun. My Sister decided not to sell her 330Ci, so I am using some of my saved money for me and the Wife. She is getting new rims and tires for the Altima, I got cams and headers for the Titan.

Dave
T trajanMember
The LL-01 is a different spec then A3. You get one free oil change per year or 15,000 miles, which ever comes first, so they have that spec.

http://sas-origin.onstreammedi...009/RP/PC/index.html

Now that I'm out of warranty, I can bend on the LL spec. But if I do decide to go 10k between changes, then I'd lean towards it.

But still, the RP is a viable choice. Nice to have a boatload of good oil to choose from.
T trajanMember
quote:
Originally posted by Deltona_Dave:
From what I have read, A3 is one of the requirements of the LL spec.

There are quite a few quality, off the shelf oils that will meet your needs.

The RP seems to keep my Titan happy, although I have only had it in for 200 miles. I don't know if the extra cost is worth it, as platinum works as good in the VK56DE.

Dave


It is a requirement, but if you look at the link and compare the two (ACEA A3 with BMW LL-01), you'll see a bit of difference.

Kind of like how all poodles are dogs, but not all dogs are poodles. (M1 High Mileage 10w-40 is ACEA A3, but not LL-01, for example.)

One reason I started this was to look for and discuss a viable alternative/s. I didn't know RP made a 0w-40.

Thanks to you, now I know of another worthy oil Smile
T trajanMember
quote:
Originally posted by Deltona_Dave:
Summit Racing carries it, but I am sure it can be found cheaper elsewhere. I am still learning about the different man. specifications. Some of the articles I have read until my eyes bleed.

BTW, the 5w-30 and 40 is only A-2. The 0w-40 is A3.

Dave


Eyes bleed and head spin. Probably why it's just so much easier to look at BMWNA's list. They did all the work for me.

But what would be the fun it that? (HEHE)
D deltonadaveMember
I hear ya Big Grin

I think any of the oils you listed will work fine in the Bimmer. If I could "will" myself to going 10K OCI's I would run RP or GC all the time in the Titan. But I am conservative and run 5-6K on syn and 3-4K on dino juice.

These Jim Wolf cams have made a big difference on the Titan. Mid-range power band is much wider. I will find out tomorrow how they handle tugging a 19' Key West flats boat (My buddy lets me borrow it).

Dave
T trajanMember
quote:
Originally posted by Deltona_Dave:
I hear ya Big Grin

I think any of the oils you listed will work fine in the Bimmer. If I could "will" myself to going 10K OCI's I would run RP or GC all the time in the Titan. But I am conservative and run 5-6K on syn and 3-4K on dino juice.

These Jim Wolf cams have made a big difference on the Titan. Mid-range power band is much wider. I will find out tomorrow how they handle tugging a 19' Key West flats boat (My buddy lets me borrow it).

Dave


Thw M1 0w-40, the two Castrols I've used, so I know they work, The others are hard to find. I've seen the Pento at a National Auto. Everything else looks like mail order.

Nothing wrong with being conservative. You beefed up the motor, so it's a good thing anyway. You already use quality oil/filter, so you're good.

Sometimes I want to get more HP. But every BMW forum I look at says the same thing. Forced induction. The stock engine is pretty much maxed out as it is, so a software update/CAI/headers/catback will only give about 3-5 more.

Anyway, enjoy the weekend!!!
L lamontbdumontMember
Wow, this is a whole lot of churn just to sort out what goes into your grocery-getter.

There is a dirty little aspect no one mentions here (because they may not be aware?) The formulation 'meets the spec', yippee. Pop open the bubbly. Does the batch in the bottle meet it? Are you buying from a company that plays the 'test until you get a pass, then put that on the CofA' game? What are their data handling guidelines for replicate results that are outside of acceptable test precision limits?

Since no one I know of gives you batch data unless you buy in bulk, you may be buying a pig in a poke.
T timvipondMember
quote:
Originally posted by Lamont B Dumont:
Wow, this is a whole lot of churn just to sort out what goes into your grocery-getter.

There is a dirty little aspect no one mentions here (because they may not be aware?) The formulation 'meets the spec', yippee. Pop open the bubbly. Does the batch in the bottle meet it? Are you buying from a company that plays the 'test until you get a pass, then put that on the CofA' game? What are their data handling guidelines for replicate results that are outside of acceptable test precision limits?

Since no one I know of gives you batch data unless you buy in bulk, you may be buying a pig in a poke.
You mean like the Mobil 1 API Certified 5w30 that Exxon said passed the API engine wear tests, yet when BP and Ashland tested the "same" product off the shelf, it failed the API engine wear spec miserably and showed 4 to 8 times more wear than the Castrol and Valvoline products?
C captainkirkMember
LAMONT....
"Wow, this is a whole lot of churn just to sort out what goes into your grocery-getter.

There is a dirty little aspect no one mentions here (because they may not be aware?) The formulation 'meets the spec', yippee. Pop open the bubbly. Does the batch in the bottle meet it? Are you buying from a company that plays the 'test until you get a pass, then put that on the CofA' game? What are their data handling guidelines for replicate results that are outside of acceptable test precision limits?"

"Since no one I know of gives you batch data unless you buy in bulk, you may be buying a pig in a poke."


TIM..
"You mean like the Mobil 1 API Certified 5w30 that Exxon said passed the API engine wear tests, yet when BP and Ashland tested the "same" product off the shelf, it failed the API engine wear spec miserably and showed 4 to 8 times more wear than the Castrol and Valvoline products?"
----------------------------------------------

Tajan Said.....
Nice to see you both have oils suggestions.
Oh, wait........... you don't.[/QUOTE]

____________

I guess if you were a little more perceptive,Trajan....you would realize they both do have a suggestion...................that would be........to rethink your final decision about who the "winner is" as you stated earlier. They both know something about oil,you apparently..........don't.

I am not really sure what this thread is about since you have basically answered your own question in your first post. You already have stated that you use GC or M1. What oil decision are you looking for....................to change to another brand after all these years!

Why don't you take your own advice,Trajan............and ask BMW! Why ask us!!! What do we Know! BMW IS YODA IN YOUR CASE! SO USE THEIR APPROVED OIL,AND BE DONE WITH IT!

Your Quote...

"Engine makers know more about their engines than anyone. So I'm a big proponent of using mfg approved oil in my engine."


ENOUGH SAID............
A adfd1Member
I guess we could say the knife cuts both ways. What guarantee does a person have buying oil that claims to meet all certifications, yet doesn't participate in the program?

It is real easy to say you meet/exceed when you're not a member of that group that bothers with the API certs, because it costs too much. At least the major oil companies have some guidelines they have to follow, and have the API to answer to.

Notice I didn't mention any company names? There's a reason. Smile

AD
L lamontbdumontMember
No Tim, I'm talking batch data, not formulation data. But you knew that.

Engine stand testing is a funny business because many of those tests are so complex that it is really easy to get a false fail (especially if that's what you wanted in the first place) but practically impossible to get a false pass. That is why those are some of the rare cases where it is an ethically valid practice to test until you pass.

With the possible exception of D 2272 for industrial oils, very few tests that would be used for batch certification fall into that category. Batch tests of necessity tend to fall into the 'go-no go' category.

Pulling a single batch and running a complex engine test once doesn't give you any useful data unless it's a pass in most cases.

Isn't it time for your Amsoil drum circle or something?
B bigbearMember
quote:
Originally posted by Lamont B Dumont:
Wow, this is a whole lot of churn just to sort out what goes into your grocery-getter.

There is a dirty little aspect no one mentions here (because they may not be aware?) The formulation 'meets the spec', yippee. Pop open the bubbly. Does the batch in the bottle meet it? Are you buying from a company that plays the 'test until you get a pass, then put that on the CofA' game? What are their data handling guidelines for replicate results that are outside of acceptable test precision limits?

Since no one I know of gives you batch data unless you buy in bulk, you may be buying a pig in a poke.


Lamont, I have a question, if I am choosing between 2 oil's and they both have tests is it fair to say that these tests are just pure Marketing to try and get me to buy there oil.

Would it be better to compare 2 different motor oil's by looking at each motor oil's PRODUCT DATA SHEETS.

I could then compare 40 Degree Celcius and 100 Degree Celcius Numbers

I could compare Flash Point and Pour Points.

I could compare HTHS Numbers as well as how both oil's do in the so called Cold Pumpability Test.
T trajanMember
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
I guess we could say the knife cuts both ways. What guarantee does a person have buying oil that claims to meet all certifications, yet doesn't participate in the program?

It is real easy to say you meet/exceed when you're not a member of that group that bothers with the API certs, because it costs too much. At least the major oil companies have some guidelines they have to follow, and have the API to answer to.

Notice I didn't mention any company names? There's a reason. Smile

AD


One thing to make a claim. Different ball game when you have to prove it.

The oils I listed not only claim it, but can prove it. Unlike, well, you know, that oil that can't meet it's advertised weight.

The links BLK listed really intrigued me. All good oils. Just couldn't convince myself to go with that weight.

Thanks to those who made the suggestions before I chose what I did.
C captainkirkMember
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:

One thing to make a claim. Different ball game when you have to prove it.


So true. Very easy to sit safely on the sidelines and say what you'd do if you were in the game. Stating you're the best, but since you're not part of it you enjoy the easy life having nothing to prove.

AD


What game! The game of politics? The only real game,the only real proving ground......is the market place,and how the masses play,or not!

If a product is not what it claims,the market place will brutally shoot it down! There is no easy life in the real world,Ad!
A adfd1Member
Its easy when you decide not to participate in certifications then claim you exceed them. Seems the market place decided that Mobil is #1, and everyone compares themselves to Mobil 1.

True there is no easy life in the real world, but some companies try and make it easier and cheaper by shooting their mouths off that they're the best but not playing in the game.

AD
T trajanMember
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
Its easy when you decide not to participate in certifications then claim you exceed them.

AD


Which brings to mind the following:

Keep in mind that unlike standard oil industry approvals, where an oil can get a grade by being within a range of criteria, OEM-approved oils use a set of standards that have been tested on your vehicle and been proven to work. I would be surprised if a company that uses the term "exceeds" spent the money to have an OEM test its oil only to receive a letter that says, "We're sorry but your product is too good, we can't offer you approval." The same thing holds true with the use of the term "meets." Since the other oil companies don't spend the time and money to have the OEM, how would they know it meets the requirement? Plus, if it did really meet the requirement then it would be an approved oil.

Some people like to cry foul and say that they don't think it's right for a car manufacturer to dictate what type of oil to use, especially if another oil company says their product exceeds their specifications. The other oil company might throw up some test and show some proof that their oil is superior to an approved oil brand. But there really is only one test for approval and that's the real-world test, which includes extensive testing of emissions, oxidation, wear-and-tear distribution on moving metal-to-metal parts, fuel economy, and severe wear-and-tear testing (about 600 hours of continued use) on your type of vehicle.

I even told one purveyor of a certain oil that, provided he buy the engine, I'd use his oil. I'd even spring for the Dyson lab work.

The fact that he declined shows the level of faith in his product.
A adfd1Member
API certs. good or bad are a starting point and help the consumer. Maybe not the greatest testing in the world, but they are something. Sitting back not participating then tooting your own horn IMO about how great a product is would be a bunch of BS.

You want to make claims the product is better then get into the game. I can home brew my own oil and say how great it is too, putting my money where my mouth is would be another story. Since these companies claim these tests are expensive I see that as a half truth and an easy way out. Oh yea and a way to increase profit...............My $.02

AD
C captainkirkMember
Trajan said....
quote:
I even told one purveyor of a certain oil that, provided he buy the engine, I'd use his oil. I'd even spring for the Dyson lab work.

The fact that he declined shows the level of faith in his product.


-----------------------------------------

Using your nutty logic Trajan,would that also apply to Goodyear tire as well if they didn't buy you a car if you promised to install their tires?

Let's also ask Mobil(using your logic-or lack of) to buy you a car if you promise to gas up for ten years with their fuel-with a signed contract even. That would be the most equitable agreement possible,and guess what Xom(mobil) would still tell you......


In sum........using, 'your logic',Goodyear tires are junk,and so is Mobil gas?


Any other brilliant conclusions Trajan,we're all on the edge of our seats!
C captainkirkMember
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
API certs. good or bad are a starting point and help the consumer. Maybe not the greatest testing in the world, but they are something. Sitting back not participating then tooting your own horn IMO about how great a product is would be a bunch of BS.

You want to make claims the product is better then get into the game. I can home brew my own oil and say how great it is too, putting my money where my mouth is would be another story. Since these companies claim these tests are expensive I see that as a half truth and an easy way out. Oh yea and a way to increase profit...............My $.02

AD



Well Ad,what is stopping you? You too can get into the business as a tribologist/oil blender. Show'em how it's done! I bet those fees would make you think twice when it really cuts into your bottom line.

Why not just put the money into making a better product instead,like some are doing........and quite well at that!

Now, what I can't figure out, is.......Big oil with it's deep pockets should have no problems making the Best motor oil lube............SO WHY DON'T THEY?

Aren't they(big oil) already making more than enough from selling fuel.......to us! What gives! I have to buy their lousy gas...........and oil too! Instead,I will support the little guy making a quality lube product!
A adfd1Member
Well Kirk I look at it this way, at least with the certs the consumer has something to go by. Vs. dealers trying to make a buck pushing a product that isn't certified. Lets use beef for an example, I'd rather have "Grade A Beef" that passed USDA standards than something imported from a country that has no standards at all. I trust the USDA before someone who is paid selling non cert. meat, telling me its good beef. No thanks!

AD
C captainkirkMember
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
Well Kirk I look at it this way, at least with the certs the consumer has something to go by. Vs. dealers trying to make a buck pushing a product that isn't certified. Lets use beef for an example, I'd rather have "Grade A Beef" that passed USDA standards than something imported from a country that has no standards at all. I trust the USDA before someone who is paid selling non cert. meat, telling me its good beef. No thanks!

AD



There is No comparison between between food and a man made product,like motor oil. You don't eat motor oil,you blend it from base stocks.

"dealers trying to make a buck"--------What about the major bucks big oil is making,and it's all certified too!........Doesn't it feel so much better when you're getting..... "officially robbed" by a certified robber!


Show me where the lack of any API "CERTS",has led to any legal,or quality issues with motor oil products.
A adfd1Member
quote:


There is No comparison between between food and a man made product,like motor oil. You don't eat motor oil,you blend it from base stocks.

"dealers trying to make a buck"--------What about the major bucks big oil is making,and it's all certified too!........Doesn't it feel so much better when you're getting..... "officially robbed" by a certified robber!


Show me where the lack of any API "CERTS",has led to any legal,or quality issues with motor oil products.


As far as food, man raises, cares for, and feeds the animal, then kills it, and brings it to market. Ever eat beef in Mexico?


Here we go with proof, show me proof the non certified oil is better? Not sales propaganda, or bogus tests.

AD
C captainkirkMember
What are these guys(API) really all about...

The association’s chief functions on behalf of the industry include advocacy and negotiation with governmental, legal, and regulatory agencies; research into economic, toxicological, and environmental effects; establishment and certification of industry standards;

Lobbying

API has spent more than $3 million annually for each the last five years (2005 to 2009) on lobbying, and $3.6 million in 2009.[3] In API’s latest quarterly “Lobbying Report” submitted to the US Senate, the organization reported that it had 16 lobbyists supporting it to lobby on various Congressional activities.[4]

http://www.api.org/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A..._Petroleum_Institute


SOUND LIKE POLITICS TO ME! JUST ANOTHER BUREAUCRACY!


This reminds me of how BP got "certified" just before the well blew out!
T trajanMember
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
quote:


There is No comparison between between food and a man made product,like motor oil. You don't eat motor oil,you blend it from base stocks.

"dealers trying to make a buck"--------What about the major bucks big oil is making,and it's all certified too!........Doesn't it feel so much better when you're getting..... "officially robbed" by a certified robber!


Show me where the lack of any API "CERTS",has led to any legal,or quality issues with motor oil products.


As far as food, man raises, cares for, and feeds the animal, then kills it, and brings it to market. Ever eat beef in Mexico?


Here we go with proof, show me proof the non certified oil is better? Not sales propaganda, or bogus tests.

AD


Funny how he cries about oil makers and "major bucks." When this "synlube", even on ebay, costs more than three times what M1 costs from say, Pep Boys.

Haven't seen a VOA where M1 failed. Seen synlube ones though.
A adfd1Member
Lamont- You sound just like my uncle with the F series Ford. He says "for the most vehicles PYB, Mobil 5000, GTX, or any good dino would have made his old Ford last just as long as the very best A*******l brew." He doesn't buy into salesman's tales, or marketing hype.

He says use the recommended grade oil, change it, change the filters, and drive. I remember him asking a know it all type pushing expensive oil to prove him wrong, he's still waiting. I'm glad he set me straight, for a while I fell for he hype.

AD
T trajanMember
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:

He says use the recommended grade oil, change it, change the filters, and drive.

AD


Good advice. I use what I do not because it's a "special" car, but because that is what is called for.

If it was spec'd for dino oil, I'd use that. That's what I used in every other car from the 1964 Buick to the 1997 Camaro.

A $32 bottle of goo? Not when what I know works is only $6.27
C captainkirkMember
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Trajan:

Even the 2010 Camaro V6 uses dino. If dino oils were bad, no car maker would spec them for engines. No one would buy them.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/...gine+specifications&

All that wonderful engine technology,and then install low tech oil? No,thanks!


Oh,wait............looks like I was right after-all about using synthetic in the V6 Camaro...I knew Gm wouldn't make such a bad choice with motor oil of all things........

//////Engine- (GM recomends using synthetic engine oil)
LS3/L99: 8.0 qts........5W-30 Synthetic Oil(GM uses Mobil 1)
V6: 6.0 qts........5W-30 Synthetic Oil(GM uses Mobil 1)
^^Capacities are WITH replacement of oil filter
LS3/L99 Oil Filter: ACDelco PF48.........K&N HP-1017........Napa Gold 7060
V6: ACDelco PF2129............K&N HP-7003........Napa Gold 7090///////////


http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49508


QUOTES FOR THE NAYSAYERS OF SYNTHETIC OIL.........

"As a past GM tech, I have pulled apart 100k mile engines that were "synthetic since birth" and 100k mile engines that were dino-based users... I believed in synthetic long before I started tearing down motors, but the proof I saw sealed the deal. "
Last edited by captainkirk
T trajanMember
And yet.......... no synlube is spec'd by any car maker.

GM 6094M is not the the synthetic oil spec so if your owners manual says that then is came with mineral oil, not synthetic.

GM4718M is General Motors' High Performance engine oil specification. Oils which meet GM4718M tend to be made from synthetic base stocks, so it is often referred to as a "synthetic" specification.

However, not all oils, synthetic or otherwise, are capable of meeting the stringent requirements of GM4718M.
Last edited by trajan
T trajanMember
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
And yet.......... no synlube is spec'd by any car maker.



Show me a lawsuit/FTC,ETC,that says not to use it.

Also,show me any-mfg, stipulating.....not-to-use synthetic oil,but to ONLY use MINERAL BASED OILS. SHOW ME THAT ONE!!!!


Never claimed there was a lawsuit that said one could not. What I said was/is the following:

No synlube is spec'd by any carmaker.
Last edited by trajan
C captainkirkMember
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:

Never claimed there was a lawsuit that said one could not. What I said was/is the following:

No synlube is spec'd by any carmaker.



Nor is............ Motul,Amsoil,Royal Purple,Torco,lubro moly,Neo synthetic,Redline,etc,etc.

Yet,these are all very good lubricants....Much better than what the Avg motorist has installed in their engines....


AND YOUR POINT IS....TRAJAN....



OH LOOK,GM ENDORSES WALMART BRAND OIL,AND OTHER OILS BLENDED BY BIG-OIL COMPANIES.............POLITICS AGAIN!!!

http://www.gm.com/corporate/re...oved_engine_oils.pdf


TRAJAN..............KEEP DRINKING THE KOOL-AID........
Last edited by captainkirk
I inhaliburtonMember
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
And yet.......... no synlube is spec'd by any car maker.



Show me a lawsuit/FTC,ETC,that says not to use it.

Also,show me any-mfg, stipulating.....not-to-use synthetic oil,but to ONLY use MINERAL BASED OILS. SHOW ME THAT ONE!!!!


And show us that car you claim exists down the street with the engine that was ruined by running Synlube.

We have been waiting months for your proof.

Well?
I inhaliburtonMember
And he calls us liars!

None of them here can get over the fact that you are successfully running Synlube in your vehicles. They love to mention that it costs $32. per bottle, cenveniently not mentioning that you return it and a new supply is sent to you prepaid and no charge in replacement every 50 000 miles! No other company in the World does that!
C captainkirkMember
quote:
Originally posted by inHaliburton:
And he calls us liars!

None of them here can get over the fact that you are successfully running Synlube in your vehicles. They love to mention that it costs $32. per bottle, cenveniently not mentioning that you return it and a new supply is sent to you prepaid and no charge in replacement every 50 000 miles! No other company in the World does that!


--------------------------------------------

Thanks,inHaliburton.......these guys are old school. One even talks about what his 'Uncle recommends'. My uncles ask me,not the other way around.

I bet these guys are from the same stock that thought 100k platinum spark plugs were impossible,let alone 200k iridium plugs. How about 100k tires and brakes......must have sounded crazy at one time.

What I can't figure out is that none of them get the fact they could just install-drain-refill, just like the stuff they use now(every 5-8k),and send in for 100% credit..thus almost free oil in the long-run,if they are afraid of 50k OCI's.

My prediction for the future is that the automakers will install lifetime oil,and lifetime(over-sized-integrated oil filters) because of all the environmental issues.....give it a few more years! They already are doing it with fuel filters,it's part of the pump module.

The fuel filter-pump module system was only really an issue in the beginning if someone went to fill up at a 'mom-n-pop' gas station with sediment laden fuel. Now days people go 150k with those things,no problem.
A adfd1Member
Kirk my uncle is someone I respect, who is extremely knowledgeable, and in tune with facts. He's not some shill on a message board, who talks to himself. There are many respectable people here who know the product is a hoax.

When you log 275,000 + miles let us know. I read your threads you haven't come close yet.

I do commend you on your new tactic to shill your product thought, nice approach. Did you get those business issues resolved and establish a business location yet? Or is the business location and mailing address still classified?

AD
I inhaliburtonMember
Lamont, I have the greatest respect for you and your ilk. Your knowledge is first-rate and few can question what you post. Similarly, I respect Capt. Kirk who is using a contraversial product. All he is doiing is giving us his personal experience with said product, and his opinions on sludge formation. I also agree with his vision of the future, which could have been yesteryear if it could have been more profitable for big oil than the usual 5- to 8-thousand kilometer oil change intervals we enjoy up here in the Great White North. When that era arrives, we can expect to pay much more for permanant oils to make up for the lack of OCIs on new vehicles. I can recall when cars were assembled without grease nipples and at the time I was positive that it would mean big problems for my car. Of course, I have yet to experience such a problem.
D deltonadaveMember
I will agree with that. If Kirk uses Syn-Lube and has good luck with it, hey, no problem. I prefer a good name brand oil that is API certified. I have a hard time buying products from a vehicle trunk (the old speaker scam comes to mind). I really would not have a hard time with S-L-4_life, if the website was not from 1996. Anyone with a little computer knowledge can make a decent site with DreamWeaver and cold fusion.

I prefer a quality oil that I can find on the shelf.

Dave
I inhaliburtonMember
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
[QUOTE]
And verifiable, third party tests.


If your certified oils are so good, why do you find it necessary to use that black ARX gunk.

BTW, I used that stuff on my first Focus at about 200 000 km. Had to dig the stuff out of the bottle because it had gone solid just like sludge. Either my engine was pristine, or that stuff did not do as advertised because I noticed no difference whatsoever, except my bank account was somewhat lighter...

I still have 2 bottles. Anyone want them
B busterMember
Well said Lamont. You are right.

Engines today are outlasting the rest of the car. Cars today require such little maintenance. Oils today are better than ever.

I have the greatest respect for XOM's marketing. Much more professional than many of the other companies.

I'm at least glad to see Shell is using the Seq IIIG & IVA instead of the 4- ball wear test to make wear claims. LOL
I inhaliburtonMember
Well Trajan, as I have told you and the masses at least 5 times since the turn of the year why I will not used Synlube. I cannot use Synlube until warranty is up because the OCI is 5 000 kms.

At the rate I am going, it will not be very long. I drove the truck off the lot May 4th. I now have over 15 000 kms on the odometer. Frankly, I cannot wait for the day when I will install a add-on oil filter system and be able to choose an oil that will not have to be changed for 10s of thousands of kms. I am fed up with this oil change interval of 5- to 8-thousand kms. I am in and out of the jiffy lubes every 2 or 3 weeks.
C captainkirkMember
How long does a car last........?



Consumer Reports ( www.consumerreports.org/) says the average life expectancy of a new vehicle these days is around 8 years or 150,000 miles.



That would be 50 iffy-lube visits for the average motorist! NOT ME! NO THANKS!

My wife loves the fact she never has to have her car serviced for an oil change..........I agree!


We just gas-n-go! Wash-n-wax! Everything is synthetic,even the brake fluid!
T trajanMember
Read through all the synlube threads out on the web, and you get alot of claims.

But hard data, that you can actually verify, is rare. So rare that Indiana Jones would die of old age before he found it.

The promoters seem to tell us to keep an open mind..... ok is looking for evidence an example of a closed mind?? Now maybe those that just fell off the turnip truck will automatically believe all sales pitches... that seems to be the nature of most scams.

Anecdotes are no substitute for the lengthy and grueling testing that other oils are subjected to. And no one has presented a shred of evidence that SYNLUBE can pass these tests even once, let alone forever.
Last edited by trajan
C captainkirkMember
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
Read through all the synlube threads out on the web, and you get alot of claims.

But hard data, that you can actually verify, is rare. So rare that Indiana Jones would die of old age before he found it.

The website is a travesty. Very poor example of marketing and information.

You don't claim that a police department uses the stuff, and not provide anything to back it up.

You don't claim to pass tests, and fail to provide anything to back it up.

Other than that, the threads here and at bitog speak volumes about this "oil".



"""MFG approved engine/trans/diff oil"""---Does that include -AR-X?

SYNLUBE HAS ALL THE PROOF I NEED! I DO BELIEVE THE PROOF YOU SPEAK OF, WAS PROVIDED TAJAN!

WOULD YOU LIKE AN INVITATION TRAJAN,PLUS DINNER AND A MOVIE-MAYBE.. A FEW COCKTAILS? SEVERAL FREE CASES OF THE STUFF? YOU'VE ALREADY ASKED FOR A FREE ENGINE--JUST TO TRY IT! WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT?
I inhaliburtonMember
Up here 50 trips by the time you get outta there is at least $50. for easy math. Thats for bottom end dino probably out of the gun, so who knows what the stuff is. Do you believe the hype from the kid who is trying to upsell you. Anyway, that works out to $2500, plus 15% HST = $2875. Round if off to $3000. Sure makes Synlube look like a bargoonie at $32 per bottle.
I inhaliburtonMember
quote:
Originally posted by Capt. Kirk:


"""MFG approved engine/trans/diff oil"""---Does that include -AR-X?


Capt., he will never answer why he is using ARX. You know the drill. Got to be a reason for sure cuz the stuff is way over priced for doing nothing. I know cuz I got sucked in with the all the hype over on BOBALOO 4 years ago. He is trying to clean up the engine from using that BMW goop they tell the non-thinkers to use. You have to use it during warranty even if it is no good, hence, his filty engine. That is the only reason to use ARX. He know darn well if he was using Synlube he would have saved a bundle and have a pristine engine just like yours!
Last edited by inhaliburton
T trajanMember
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
quote:
Originally posted by inHaliburton:
Well Trajan, as I have told you and the masses at least 5 times since the turn of the year why I will not used Synlube. I cannot use Synlube until warranty is up because the OCI is 5 000 kms.

At the rate I am going, it will not be very long. I drove the truck off the lot May 4th. I now have over 15 000 kms on the odometer. Frankly, I cannot wait for the day when I will install a add-on oil filter system and be able to choose an oil that will not have to be changed for 10s of thousands of kms. I am fed up with this oil change interval of 5- to 8-thousand kms. I am in and out of the jiffy lubes every 2 or 3 weeks.


Why worry? According to many people here the oil can't void the warranty, the car maker would have to prove the oil is at fault if the engine takes a dump and dies.

Since synlube is such a fantastic oil, and Kirk pours into his new vehicles with no worry, and runs extended drains in new cars, why should you worry? Go for it if you have that much faith in the product. A Shipmate pal of mine dropped the Factory Fill in his new F250 and went with RL 5W20, a non certified oil w/o any fear. Oh yea RL is a real company with an actual street location.

AD


That would mean that he actually has the courage of his convictions. Never seen such rabid defense of a product by one who doesn't/is too scared to use it.
Last edited by trajan
I inhaliburtonMember
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
[QUOTE]
Why worry? According to many people here the oil can't void the warranty, the car maker would have to prove the oil is at fault if the engine takes a dump and dies.

Since synlube is such a fantastic oil, and Kirk pours into his new vehicles with no worry, and runs extended drains in new cars, why should you worry? Go for it if you have that much faith in the product. A Shipmate pal of mine dropped the Factory Fill in his new F250 and went with RL 5W20, a non certified oil w/o any fear. Oh yea RL is a real company with an actual street location.

AD

AD, a touch of sarcasm. Easy there... Wink

Well, bully for you friend. That's his truck and he's welcome to do what he wants, just like me. Nope, makes no sense to not change the oil for 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 thousand miles. The numbers get real big when transforming to metric. Believe me, the Ford crowd up here are not into very long OCIs. If something with wrong with the motor or driveline, they would laugh me out of the service department if I go in there looking for warranty and can't prove that the oil had been changed every 5 000 kms. Not worth the risk. I can wait. It's unlikely that I'll have a warranty issue with the engine. I've not has one in more than 20 years. Can't remember having an issue ever with the engine or tranny. Mostly recalls over the years.
I inhaliburtonMember
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:

That would mean that he actually has the courage of his convictions. Never seen such rabid defense of a product by one who doesn't/is too scared to use it.

The big bucks you've been throwing away for all those additives you've been dumping in that dirty engine of yours to clean it up after using that crumby BMW-authorized oil you been using will easily pay for loading up the truck when and if decide to switch to Synlube.

That hocky stuff you are using is not necessary if you use a quality synthetic motor oil and quality oil filter and change according to your operating manual. That's simple, basic, logical maintenance.
C captainkirkMember
For those of you who think that ARX is cleaning up your engine by virtue of the filter media.....

QUOTED..
"ARX's lanolin esters are semi-solid and rather large particles. I have filtered the virgin product with coffee filters which caught a lot of these particles on the filter. It looked like jelly and I think that this is what you are seeing here."

THE LINK

fficial%26channel%3Ds%26ndsp%3D20%26tbs%3Disch:1" target="_blank">http://www.google.com/imgres?i...%3D20%26tbs%3Disch:1
A adfd1Member
They'll call it a small problem, replace the filter and send the customer a qt of oil. Once the oil lite comes on the damage has been done. It might not be immediate, and that's Amsoil's out, but damage has been done.

How much once again Amsoi's out and anyones's guess. A year two down the road if the car starts blowing smoke or using oil you think Amsoil will help? I don't.

I'll stick with what I can buy locally and change when the mfg suggests. Extended drain oils and filters are not my cup of tea.

Good point Trajan: The last thing Miro wants is anything floating to the surface about his oil. Somethings are best left at the bottom of the sea!

AD
T trajanMember
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:

I'll stick with what I can buy locally and change when the mfg suggests. Extended drain oils and filters are not my cup of tea.
AD


No reasonable person should have a problem with that. Quality dino/synth oil and filter along with a reasonable oci is the way to go.

Too many links have been posted that show what happens when you don't.

I'm going to try a 10K oci with a filter change when I add oil. (Burn a qt @6k)
C captainkirkMember
Trajan quoted..
quote:
I'm going to try a 10K oci with a filter change when I add oil. (Burn a qt @6k)



AAHHH...the truth comes out once again! You burn oil,and have sludge/varnish issues(You admit to using A-RX).............GOTCHA !!!!!



So, let's sum up your "STELLAR" results with this..........the so called "MFG APPROVED OIL" you're using and swear by.... is really working out well I see.......engine is burning the stuff,and the oil also sludge/varnishes up the engine. All those 'expensive' oil changes with your "Approved oil",and all the flushes,rinses,chemicals,TCW3 in the fuel(don't tell BMW/EPA),etc,etc,............SOUNDS LIKE YOU HAVE PROVEN MY POINT QUITE WELL-conventional wisdom/techniques don't work so well...do they!


The above issues Trajan is dealing with,is the reason why I use Synlube.

I have zero sludge,zero varnish,(zero oil burning/loss/evaporation),no chemicals or flushes ever needed,and No worries!
Last edited by captainkirk
C captainkirkMember
These are all quotes from the 'other site',where everyone is still hung up on VOA,and lab results being unreliable.
-------------------------------------
"As for “simple” VOA and UOA Lab results, they are traditionally variable. Those from Oil Company Labs when testing their own products are certainly better. At a recent visit to Daimler AG in Unterturkheim, I was assured that they do their own VOAs on FF lubricants as a matter of course. Variances in supply quality do occur!

and the 0w-40 is not synthetic basestock? also, viscosity as published is an average value not an exact one. look at

Yes. Most oil companies give averages on their PDS sheets and UOA's all depend on the calibration of the test equipment and which human did them. I've had VOA's done in the past where I questioned the additive level. Resent samples three times from the same bottle and got back three different answers. All within the 10% range

The Blackstone 100C vis of 13.36 cSt is quite a bit off the M1 PDS spec' of 14.0 cSt (used to be 14.3 in the not too distant past).
That's something to keep in mind when reviewing UOAs from this lab particularly when assessing how shear prone M1 0W-40 is reported to be.


This seems to happen far too often. I know VOA/UOA are relatively inexpensive via Blackstone but having to send out a sample to verify a sketchy result does add up. It seems the adage "you get what you pay for" does apply to oil analyses. "

VOA's are not a good way to answer your question Shup1. They are good to have for reference in comparison to UOA's to see what changes occured during use. You cannot rate an oil bt its VOA


Some might be close, but when a VOA is even over a year old, it's pretty much old news. When a VOA is 4+ years old, there is almost 100% certainty it been changed by the formulator. Driven by improvement, specification chasing, cost, new and discontinued additives - lubricant formulas change.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SAVE YOUR MONEY GUYS. ......ALL THAT REALLY MATTERS IS LONG TERM PERFORMANCE,AND ACTUAL RESULTS!!! THOSE TESTS(VOA/UOA) ARE CERTAINLY GOOD AT DRAINING YOUR WALLETS-IF NOTHING ELSE! THAT'S WHY I HAVE NEVER BOTHERED!
Last edited by captainkirk
T trajanMember
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
Kirk- I hardly think Trajan has a problem. Burning a qt of oil in 6000 miles is not considered a problem. A car mfg considers oil consumption a problem when an engine uses more than 1 qt/1000 miles, anything else is considered normal.

AD


You're right. It isn't a problem. It's far from a problem. The dealer doesn't see it as a problem. My mechanic doesn't. People who own and drive these cars, unlike kirk, don't see it as a problem.

No synlube, no worries.
C captainkirkMember
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ADFD1:
Kirk- I hardly think Trajan has a problem. Burning a qt of oil in 6000 miles is not considered a problem. A car mfg considers oil consumption a problem when an engine uses more than 1 qt/1000 miles, anything else is considered normal.

AD


You're right. It isn't a problem. It's far from a problem. The dealer doesn't see it as a problem. My mechanic doesn't. People who own and drive these cars, unlike kirk, don't see it as a problem.

-------------------------------------------

Well...then your all blind...or ignoring the obvious! Your engines are not in stellar condition.

If I were the dealer, I would also tell you the car is fine,and then say........"have a nice day and be sure to come back when the warranty runs out--and your ready for an engine overhaul"............OUT OF WARRANTY OF COURSE! LOL
M mirokefurtMember
Just a simple question:

Why is $46,000 car worth only $14,000 when it runs out of the 4 year 50,000 miles Warranty ?

That is the $32,000 question !!!

May be there is reason for it = it is BMW....

The Ultimate sucker machine, and the fact that it sucks oil too; is just part of the "Unique owner Experience".


Infact BMW depreciation rate is just about the same as that of a HYUNDAI, i.e. in used car business it is valued the same, that alone should be a clue.

(Except for MINI which while sold by BMW dealers from spearate showroom is not real BMW - fortunately, and thus it has the hihgest reseale value in the car industry)
T trajanMember
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
All cars depreciate, it's called reality. How about those Yugos? What a joke they were.

AD


The explaination goes over his head. He should also realize that, in time, many cars do increase in value. Depends on many things though.

A pristine 1969 Camaro with the right options is worth more than a new 2011 model. Today, an old Isetta, well, http://autos.aol.com/used-list...-BMW/model1-Isetta/, which is far more than it costs when new.

He's only frothing at the mouth due to the very harsh light we've thrown on synlube. and the product came up short.

I would also explain to him that the 15K service on a BMW is much more than a simple oil change. But that would go over his head too.

We all know what a Yugo is worth. Even an Edsel is worth far more.

I also see that, and there is no surprise there, that once again, he can't back his "claims".

A free hint miro. Making fun of BMW doesn't faze me. Just displays the on going ignorance you convey. Good for a laugh or two.

Yugos sell for what, $100, if that now?
Last edited by trajan
B blk98mk8lscMember
BMW uses low tension piston ring sets on purpose. They provide less parasitic drag on the cylinder walls and superior cylinder lubrication at high RPM high load. Small and large high specific output engines from many brands use this strategy. Not a problem. They are designed this way for A reason. Its not the oils fault they chose this engineering compromise.
M mirokefurtMember
KBB values based on real transaction prices in 2010

BLUE BOOK® PRIVATE PARTY VALUE
Close
Private Party Value
Kelley Blue Book Private Party Value is the amount a buyer can expect to pay when buying a used car from a private party. The Private Party Value assumes the vehicle is sold "As Is" and carries no warranty (other than any remaining factory warranty). The final sale price may vary depending on the vehicle's actual condition and local market conditions. This value may also be used to derive Fair Market Value for insurance and vehicle donation purposes.

1990 YUGO GV Value

Excellent $2,300
Good $2,150
Fair $1,650

Not bad for a car that was $5,225 MSRP and sold for about $4,900 in 1990 to be worth that much 20 years later.

This is data from the came company that depreciates BMW 62% in the first year of ownership, while MINI is worth 62% of its price 36 months later.

But still YUGO tops the list it is worth 41% of its original price (if not beat up) 20 years LATTER !!!

Compare that to most cars that are worth that much (less) just in 12 to 18 months !!!
M mirokefurtMember
Compare that with BMW and that is one of the "top" models: 2010 BMW M6
MSRP $$106,225.00
New 100% $102,350.00
2 45% $46,057.50
3 37% $37,869.50
4 30% $30,705.00
5 24% $24,564.00

It is 45% of its value after just 12 months, dont you wish you have YUGO ? It's value drops almost $4,000 even before it is driven off the dealer's lot - how is that for a "great" car ?
M mirokefurtMember
MY point of all of this is, in case you have missed it:

Great vehicles no matter the make or model retain its value over time.

Poor vehicles lose their value very very quickly.


As simple as that.

If BMW retained it's value Trajan would not be able to afford even the used one.


NO ONE Can argue with that, the data is there and available to every one, but if you elect to stick your head into a sand dune that of course is you privilege.

Similarily data is availalble about the problems conventional lubircants cause, like sludge, gel, varnish, excessive oil consumption, and so on.

I accept the fact that BMW may have "special" low tension rings, but that does not explain why cars converted to a better lubricant at low mileage DO NOT consume much oil, while those serviced at BMW for FREE do develop such "problem" when the warranty is over or in just 50,000 miles.

NO one seems to report that their car lost 2 quarts or more before the FIRST service was due, but by 45,000 iles the same vehicle "burns" oil - WHY ???

May be the 15,000 + service intervals are just TOO LONG for the stuff the BMW dealers use in these vehicles.

Clearly when the engine leaves the BMW assembly it is as perfect as can be, it is only latter that it develops the "oil consumption", so something DOES NOT last.

And if the oil you use makes a difference then of course it is lubrication related issue.

Well actually more like Tribological Issue as friction, wear and lubrication all play a role in that scenario.

And do not think of this as SynLube promotion, simple as I have stated before we have BMW customers that did not use the FREE BMW service and NONE have oil consumption issues, while those that waited for the FREE and WARRANTY to expire FIRST before they switched all are asking why is my car burning so much oil.

It is not one in many vehclies issue; it is statistically proveable trend with identical experience shared my many.

Just search the web -------
A adfd1Member
I find it quite funny reading this. Miro are you trying to say a Yugo is a better car than a BMW? Then trying to make the case for your oil?

Bad move, pick another car, YUGO was/is a POS. You're not selling your oil by pointing out that Yugo is a good car. People vote with their check books, and YGUO failed horribly in the USA. Anyone I ever heard talk about them called them throw away cars, and garbage. I think most here will agree?

Lets take a vote: Pick a car to own, anything from BMW, or anything from YUGO?

Then or now?

I'll sound off with BMW.

AD
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