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Read our primer articles on High Mileage Oil, Synthetic Oil and Kinematic Viscosity

It's near time for the 8k mile oil change for the car in my sig.

There are three things I look for in an oil.

1: API rating. It has to have the starburst on the container. If it does not have it, then I don't look any further.

2: ACEA rating. It has to have a HTHS of at least 3.5. So that means it has to be A3 or better. I've read that you can go to a higher A rating, but not lower. So if it's A1, it's rejected.

3: MFG approval. A great deal of money is spent on R&D to make sure the oil can handle the engine. Auto makers work closely with oil companies on that point. BMW works with Castrol, as does Audi/VW though other companies will pony up the money to test their oils. It's the same with Porsche/Mobil, Ferrari/Shell, etc.

Other companies also work with the auto makers. BMW factory fills with Castrol, but Valvoline/Mobil/Pennzoil also have BMW approvals for some of their oil. Porsche has over 100 approved oils, but factory fill with Mobil 1.

My point? Engine makers know more about their engines than anyone. So I'm a big proponent of using mfg approved oil in my engine.

So it is LL-01 for me. It is a point that I can bend on a little though, as my 6yr/100k mile warranty is up.


The next post will be a list of oils I'm looking at, and finally, the one that is my choice.

Feel free to advise, but within the paramaters. (LL-01 isn't an absolute.)
Last edited {1}
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In no paticular order:
Motul 8100 X-MAX 5W-30
http://matrixsyntheticoils.com...0%20x-max%205w30.pdf

Castrol Syntec SAE 0W-30 European Formula (Meets all the specs.)

Castrol Syntec SAE 5W-40 European Formula (Ll-98 instead of 01 but meets the other two.)

Liqui Moly Leichtlauf Special LL 5W-30 (meets all)

Mobil 1 0w-40 (Meets all) The flagship as far as I'm concerned. Can't argue with Aston Martin, Porsche, Mercedes AMG either. My favorite oil.

Pento High Performance 5W-30 (Meets all)

Pennzoil Ultra 5W-40 Euro (I understand Pennzoil is going to set a link on their site so we can buy it. It's hard to find.)

Q HorsePower SAE 5W-40 (as of 2007 LL-01 approval was pending)

I know one who ran uses Motul in his M3 and is happy with it. It is also expensive compared to the M1.
http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html
Note the timing gears from the 2.5 Boxster M96 engine. 0-40 M1 with excessive oil change interval. It was specified by the factory. Government regs have a great deal to do with current oil specs. Any of the products you have listed for consideration will be OK BUT chose an interval that suits the one you choose. Error on the side of caution. Any of the synthetic products listed are overkill,especially if the change interval is shortened. I treat my toys better than I have to,so no lecture here about spending more than you have to. DO WHAT YOU LIKE. You must have some opinion about what you do and dont want.
Castrol Syntec SAE 0W-30 European Formula (Meets all the specs.) That would be my choice, seems to be a favorite oil for many drivers, with tons of data backing it up. Save the thicker stuff for if/when you ever have oil use problems. The other nice thing about the Castrol product is it is pretty easy to get, no jumping through hoops.

I have a few Shipmates using Castrol in BMW and they're all happy with it, engines are staying clean. We had the VC off one at the Hobby Shack not long ago, 100,000+ on the clock and clean as a bell using GC 0W30.

AD
quote:
Originally posted by BKL98MK8LSC:
http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html
Note the timing gears from the 2.5 Boxster M96 engine. 0-40 M1 with excessive oil change interval. It was specified by the factory. Government regs have a great deal to do with current oil specs. Any of the products you have listed for consideration will be OK BUT chose an interval that suits the one you choose. Error on the side of caution. Any of the synthetic products listed are overkill,especially if the change interval is shortened. I treat my toys better than I have to,so no lecture here about spending more than you have to. DO WHAT YOU LIKE. You must have some opinion about what you do and dont want.


My OCI is normally @8K miles. Even under warranty I changed it halfway through. (I treat my toys better than I have to as well Smile)

I do have an opinion, thus the parameters I mentioned. But feel free to offer your advice. I may not heed it, but I won't bite your head off.

FWIW, I burn a qt /6k miles.
Last edited by trajan
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
Castrol Syntec SAE 0W-30 European Formula (Meets all the specs.) That would be my choice, seems to be a favorite oil for many drivers, with tons of data backing it up. Save the thicker stuff for if/when you ever have oil use problems. The other nice thing about the Castrol product is it is pretty easy to get, no jumping through hoops.

I have a few Shipmates using Castrol in BMW and they're all happy with it, engines are staying clean. We had the VC off one at the Hobby Shack not long ago, 100,000+ on the clock and clean as a bell using GC 0W30.

AD


GC is a very good oil. I've used it a few times. The factory fill is rebadged Castrol TXT 5w-30.

There is one oil I didn't mention, though I'm using it. Mobil 1 TDT 5w-40.

Miscommunication between myself and my mechanic led to that. My fault that was. I wanted the Pz-5w-40, but the distributor didn't have it listed. (Common as we've heard over at BITOG). So I said "The M1 then.", meaning the 0w-40. Oops.....

Anyway, I looked up the specs, and was really surprised at the HTHS of 3.9, which is a tad higher the their 0w-40.
Trajan, what type of driving do you do, I remember corresponding with a member on BITOG about a particular 0W-20 motor oil that was rated for 25,000 miles or 1 year under normal service and 15,000 miles or one year under sever service, he asked me how many miles I drove the car a day, I said 20 miles to work and 20 miles back home, he recommended a 7500 mile OCI.

So, with what he told me, I am using PP 5W-20 and doing 5000 mile OCI's.

This person was a member of Terry Dyson's Blog, and he did not try to push Biosyn on me.
Im hesitant to recommend any product that I dont use myself or have any experience with. I can tell you the I use DELVAC 1 5-40 and lubrication engineers monolec SPB 5-30 in my own cars and trucks with no complaints. I also use lucas pure synthetic additive in some applications.Ive found it to be A very different product than their standard gorilla snot stabilizer. All depends on application and usage.
quote:
Originally posted by BKL98MK8LSC:
Im hesitant to recommend any product that I dont use myself or have any experience with. I can tell you the I use DELVAC 1 5-40 and lubrication engineers monolec SPB 5-30 in my own cars and trucks with no complaints. I also use lucas pure synthetic additive in some applications.Ive found it to be A very different product than their standard gorilla snot stabilizer. All depends on application and usage.


I came across this here: http://forums.bimmerforums.com...wthread.php?t=265292

"A note concerning Mobil 1 5w-40 SUV oil. I know that somebody is going to go to buy this and say "hey it doesn't say ACEA A3 on the back." They are correct. The 5w-40 oil repackaged Mobil Delvac 1, a Synthetic Heavy Duty Engine oil originally designed for trucks and fleet vehicles. This oil is slightly heavier than the 0w-40 and has an HTHS of 4.1. It meets ACEA E3,4 & 5 which are diesal requirements but still require an HTHS of greater than 3.5."

If it's the same as yours, that would be a good choice. I favor the higher HTHS numbers myself.

I hesitate to recommend oils I don't use too. In general though, I think an ACEA A3 oil is stouter than an non rated one of the same weight. JMHO though.
Last edited by trajan
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
Trajan, what type of driving do you do, I remember corresponding with a member on BITOG about a particular 0W-20 motor oil that was rated for 25,000 miles or 1 year under normal service and 15,000 miles or one year under sever service, he asked me how many miles I drove the car a day, I said 20 miles to work and 20 miles back home, he recommended a 7500 mile OCI.

So, with what he told me, I am using PP 5W-20 and doing 5000 mile OCI's.

This person was a member of Terry Dyson's Blog, and he did not try to push Biosyn on me.


It's a car built for high speed/high rpm driving all day Smile

But seriously now. Most of my driving is highway. I'm about 1/2 mile or less from an expressway. Usually shift @2-2.5k, but once in awhile I rip it to 6k or do the Itailian tuneup.

No track days. But I average about 20K miles a year. (Bought it 4/06 with 10,300 miles, just turned 113,000 today.)
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
Trajan, what type of driving do you do, I remember corresponding with a member on BITOG about a particular 0W-20 motor oil that was rated for 25,000 miles or 1 year under normal service and 15,000 miles or one year under sever service, he asked me how many miles I drove the car a day, I said 20 miles to work and 20 miles back home, he recommended a 7500 mile OCI.

So, with what he told me, I am using PP 5W-20 and doing 5000 mile OCI's.

This person was a member of Terry Dyson's Blog, and he did not try to push Biosyn on me.


It's a car built for high speed/high rpm driving all day Smile

But seriously now. Most of my driving is highway. I'm about 1/2 mile or less from an expressway. Usually shift @2-2.5k, but once in awhile I rip it to 6k or do the Itailian tuneup.

No track days. But I average about 20K miles a year. (Bought it 4/06 with 10,300 miles, just turned 113,000 today.)


Since you do Highway Driving, I am guessing your driving at least 30 miles or so one way, and about 30 miles back, regardless of how many miles you drive on the highway, this is not stop and go driving, so 8000 mile OCI's should be fine.

If this car were seeing mostly stop and go driving or short trips then I would be more concerned with the oil choice. JMO
Trajan,
Might look at Royal Purple 0w-40. API certified, meets A3 specs.

My mechanic just filled my Titan's sump with 2qt's RP break-in, and the rest 5w-30. He just installed my JWT cams and springs. I will run it for 1K then dump.

Eneos is getting some good reviews, although it's TBN is a little low, but supposedly, it retains it longer.

If not, run GC. I just bought a few qt's (all they had at A.Z.), for my OPE. If the truck does not like RP, I am going to use GC.

Have a good weekend, I am headed to Crystal River tomorrow for some scalloping over the long weekend.
Dave
The only thing with RP, is they keep the HTHS a secret, but if the 0W-40 meets A3 spec., It would be a good bet it will meet LL-01. I have started using Synthetics in just about everything now, although Dino's are just about as good. The Wife's Altima is filled with PYB for a 3000 OCI (because I received a few jugs from a friend). She does a lot of short trips. Next OCI will be PP or PU.

I have not been scalloping in a few years, so should be fun. My Sister decided not to sell her 330Ci, so I am using some of my saved money for me and the Wife. She is getting new rims and tires for the Altima, I got cams and headers for the Titan.

Dave
The LL-01 is a different spec then A3. You get one free oil change per year or 15,000 miles, which ever comes first, so they have that spec.

http://sas-origin.onstreammedi...009/RP/PC/index.html

Now that I'm out of warranty, I can bend on the LL spec. But if I do decide to go 10k between changes, then I'd lean towards it.

But still, the RP is a viable choice. Nice to have a boatload of good oil to choose from.
quote:
Originally posted by Deltona_Dave:
From what I have read, A3 is one of the requirements of the LL spec.

There are quite a few quality, off the shelf oils that will meet your needs.

The RP seems to keep my Titan happy, although I have only had it in for 200 miles. I don't know if the extra cost is worth it, as platinum works as good in the VK56DE.

Dave


It is a requirement, but if you look at the link and compare the two (ACEA A3 with BMW LL-01), you'll see a bit of difference.

Kind of like how all poodles are dogs, but not all dogs are poodles. (M1 High Mileage 10w-40 is ACEA A3, but not LL-01, for example.)

One reason I started this was to look for and discuss a viable alternative/s. I didn't know RP made a 0w-40.

Thanks to you, now I know of another worthy oil Smile
quote:
Originally posted by Deltona_Dave:
Summit Racing carries it, but I am sure it can be found cheaper elsewhere. I am still learning about the different man. specifications. Some of the articles I have read until my eyes bleed.

BTW, the 5w-30 and 40 is only A-2. The 0w-40 is A3.

Dave


Eyes bleed and head spin. Probably why it's just so much easier to look at BMWNA's list. They did all the work for me.

But what would be the fun it that? (HEHE)
I hear ya Big Grin

I think any of the oils you listed will work fine in the Bimmer. If I could "will" myself to going 10K OCI's I would run RP or GC all the time in the Titan. But I am conservative and run 5-6K on syn and 3-4K on dino juice.

These Jim Wolf cams have made a big difference on the Titan. Mid-range power band is much wider. I will find out tomorrow how they handle tugging a 19' Key West flats boat (My buddy lets me borrow it).

Dave
quote:
Originally posted by Deltona_Dave:
I hear ya Big Grin

I think any of the oils you listed will work fine in the Bimmer. If I could "will" myself to going 10K OCI's I would run RP or GC all the time in the Titan. But I am conservative and run 5-6K on syn and 3-4K on dino juice.

These Jim Wolf cams have made a big difference on the Titan. Mid-range power band is much wider. I will find out tomorrow how they handle tugging a 19' Key West flats boat (My buddy lets me borrow it).

Dave


Thw M1 0w-40, the two Castrols I've used, so I know they work, The others are hard to find. I've seen the Pento at a National Auto. Everything else looks like mail order.

Nothing wrong with being conservative. You beefed up the motor, so it's a good thing anyway. You already use quality oil/filter, so you're good.

Sometimes I want to get more HP. But every BMW forum I look at says the same thing. Forced induction. The stock engine is pretty much maxed out as it is, so a software update/CAI/headers/catback will only give about 3-5 more.

Anyway, enjoy the weekend!!!
The German's have figured out how to get the most out of the engine, especially the smaller inline 6's.

Heck, the Krauts had synthetic oil during WWII!

The VK56DE in my truck, was modified for pulling. The original design was for the Q56 Infinity, with sodium filled valves, etc. Nissan just changed the valve train for truck work.

After driving my Sisters 330Ci, I can attest to the fact that BMW knows what they are doing. Medium displacement, HP number low on paper, but man does that thing sing on the hwy, and corner like it is on rails. Where I work, we are phasing out the HD Road King police for the BMW 1200RTP. The Hawgs pull away til about 20, then the Beamers say Bye Bye. Better warranty, balance, performance, 2 batteries, yep Germans know what they are doing. Maintenance is cheaper too.

Dave
quote:
Originally posted by Deltona_Dave:
The German's have figured out how to get the most out of the engine, especially the smaller inline 6's.

Heck, the Krauts had synthetic oil during WWII!

The VK56DE in my truck, was modified for pulling. The original design was for the Q56 Infinity, with sodium filled valves, etc. Nissan just changed the valve train for truck work.

After driving my Sisters 330Ci, I can attest to the fact that BMW knows what they are doing. Medium displacement, HP number low on paper, but man does that thing sing on the hwy, and corner like it is on rails. Where I work, we are phasing out the HD Road King police for the BMW 1200RTP. The Hawgs pull away til about 20, then the Beamers say Bye Bye. Better warranty, balance, performance, 2 batteries, yep Germans know what they are doing. Maintenance is cheaper too.

Dave


Yes they do. best car I ever had. But oh the pain of having to fix it now....... Luckily my mechanic lets me bring my own parts.

If she ends up keeping it, inspect the expansion tank once in a while. It's a weak spot, and bimmers don't carry alot of coolant.

(I got lucky when mine cracked. Only cracked enough to empty itself and not the radiator.)
Wow, this is a whole lot of churn just to sort out what goes into your grocery-getter.

There is a dirty little aspect no one mentions here (because they may not be aware?) The formulation 'meets the spec', yippee. Pop open the bubbly. Does the batch in the bottle meet it? Are you buying from a company that plays the 'test until you get a pass, then put that on the CofA' game? What are their data handling guidelines for replicate results that are outside of acceptable test precision limits?

Since no one I know of gives you batch data unless you buy in bulk, you may be buying a pig in a poke.
quote:
Originally posted by Lamont B Dumont:
Wow, this is a whole lot of churn just to sort out what goes into your grocery-getter.

There is a dirty little aspect no one mentions here (because they may not be aware?) The formulation 'meets the spec', yippee. Pop open the bubbly. Does the batch in the bottle meet it? Are you buying from a company that plays the 'test until you get a pass, then put that on the CofA' game? What are their data handling guidelines for replicate results that are outside of acceptable test precision limits?

Since no one I know of gives you batch data unless you buy in bulk, you may be buying a pig in a poke.
You mean like the Mobil 1 API Certified 5w30 that Exxon said passed the API engine wear tests, yet when BP and Ashland tested the "same" product off the shelf, it failed the API engine wear spec miserably and showed 4 to 8 times more wear than the Castrol and Valvoline products?
LAMONT....
"Wow, this is a whole lot of churn just to sort out what goes into your grocery-getter.

There is a dirty little aspect no one mentions here (because they may not be aware?) The formulation 'meets the spec', yippee. Pop open the bubbly. Does the batch in the bottle meet it? Are you buying from a company that plays the 'test until you get a pass, then put that on the CofA' game? What are their data handling guidelines for replicate results that are outside of acceptable test precision limits?"

"Since no one I know of gives you batch data unless you buy in bulk, you may be buying a pig in a poke."


TIM..
"You mean like the Mobil 1 API Certified 5w30 that Exxon said passed the API engine wear tests, yet when BP and Ashland tested the "same" product off the shelf, it failed the API engine wear spec miserably and showed 4 to 8 times more wear than the Castrol and Valvoline products?"
----------------------------------------------

Tajan Said.....
Nice to see you both have oils suggestions.
Oh, wait........... you don't.[/QUOTE]

____________

I guess if you were a little more perceptive,Trajan....you would realize they both do have a suggestion...................that would be........to rethink your final decision about who the "winner is" as you stated earlier. They both know something about oil,you apparently..........don't.

I am not really sure what this thread is about since you have basically answered your own question in your first post. You already have stated that you use GC or M1. What oil decision are you looking for....................to change to another brand after all these years!

Why don't you take your own advice,Trajan............and ask BMW! Why ask us!!! What do we Know! BMW IS YODA IN YOUR CASE! SO USE THEIR APPROVED OIL,AND BE DONE WITH IT!

Your Quote...

"Engine makers know more about their engines than anyone. So I'm a big proponent of using mfg approved oil in my engine."


ENOUGH SAID............
I guess we could say the knife cuts both ways. What guarantee does a person have buying oil that claims to meet all certifications, yet doesn't participate in the program?

It is real easy to say you meet/exceed when you're not a member of that group that bothers with the API certs, because it costs too much. At least the major oil companies have some guidelines they have to follow, and have the API to answer to.

Notice I didn't mention any company names? There's a reason. Smile

AD
No Tim, I'm talking batch data, not formulation data. But you knew that.

Engine stand testing is a funny business because many of those tests are so complex that it is really easy to get a false fail (especially if that's what you wanted in the first place) but practically impossible to get a false pass. That is why those are some of the rare cases where it is an ethically valid practice to test until you pass.

With the possible exception of D 2272 for industrial oils, very few tests that would be used for batch certification fall into that category. Batch tests of necessity tend to fall into the 'go-no go' category.

Pulling a single batch and running a complex engine test once doesn't give you any useful data unless it's a pass in most cases.

Isn't it time for your Amsoil drum circle or something?
quote:
Originally posted by Lamont B Dumont:
Wow, this is a whole lot of churn just to sort out what goes into your grocery-getter.

There is a dirty little aspect no one mentions here (because they may not be aware?) The formulation 'meets the spec', yippee. Pop open the bubbly. Does the batch in the bottle meet it? Are you buying from a company that plays the 'test until you get a pass, then put that on the CofA' game? What are their data handling guidelines for replicate results that are outside of acceptable test precision limits?

Since no one I know of gives you batch data unless you buy in bulk, you may be buying a pig in a poke.


Lamont, I have a question, if I am choosing between 2 oil's and they both have tests is it fair to say that these tests are just pure Marketing to try and get me to buy there oil.

Would it be better to compare 2 different motor oil's by looking at each motor oil's PRODUCT DATA SHEETS.

I could then compare 40 Degree Celcius and 100 Degree Celcius Numbers

I could compare Flash Point and Pour Points.

I could compare HTHS Numbers as well as how both oil's do in the so called Cold Pumpability Test.
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
I guess we could say the knife cuts both ways. What guarantee does a person have buying oil that claims to meet all certifications, yet doesn't participate in the program?

It is real easy to say you meet/exceed when you're not a member of that group that bothers with the API certs, because it costs too much. At least the major oil companies have some guidelines they have to follow, and have the API to answer to.

Notice I didn't mention any company names? There's a reason. Smile

AD


One thing to make a claim. Different ball game when you have to prove it.

The oils I listed not only claim it, but can prove it. Unlike, well, you know, that oil that can't meet it's advertised weight.

The links BLK listed really intrigued me. All good oils. Just couldn't convince myself to go with that weight.

Thanks to those who made the suggestions before I chose what I did.
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:

One thing to make a claim. Different ball game when you have to prove it.


So true. Very easy to sit safely on the sidelines and say what you'd do if you were in the game. Stating you're the best, but since you're not part of it you enjoy the easy life having nothing to prove.

AD


What game! The game of politics? The only real game,the only real proving ground......is the market place,and how the masses play,or not!

If a product is not what it claims,the market place will brutally shoot it down! There is no easy life in the real world,Ad!
Its easy when you decide not to participate in certifications then claim you exceed them. Seems the market place decided that Mobil is #1, and everyone compares themselves to Mobil 1.

True there is no easy life in the real world, but some companies try and make it easier and cheaper by shooting their mouths off that they're the best but not playing in the game.

AD
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
Its easy when you decide not to participate in certifications then claim you exceed them.

AD


Which brings to mind the following:

Keep in mind that unlike standard oil industry approvals, where an oil can get a grade by being within a range of criteria, OEM-approved oils use a set of standards that have been tested on your vehicle and been proven to work. I would be surprised if a company that uses the term "exceeds" spent the money to have an OEM test its oil only to receive a letter that says, "We're sorry but your product is too good, we can't offer you approval." The same thing holds true with the use of the term "meets." Since the other oil companies don't spend the time and money to have the OEM, how would they know it meets the requirement? Plus, if it did really meet the requirement then it would be an approved oil.

Some people like to cry foul and say that they don't think it's right for a car manufacturer to dictate what type of oil to use, especially if another oil company says their product exceeds their specifications. The other oil company might throw up some test and show some proof that their oil is superior to an approved oil brand. But there really is only one test for approval and that's the real-world test, which includes extensive testing of emissions, oxidation, wear-and-tear distribution on moving metal-to-metal parts, fuel economy, and severe wear-and-tear testing (about 600 hours of continued use) on your type of vehicle.

I even told one purveyor of a certain oil that, provided he buy the engine, I'd use his oil. I'd even spring for the Dyson lab work.

The fact that he declined shows the level of faith in his product.
API certs. good or bad are a starting point and help the consumer. Maybe not the greatest testing in the world, but they are something. Sitting back not participating then tooting your own horn IMO about how great a product is would be a bunch of BS.

You want to make claims the product is better then get into the game. I can home brew my own oil and say how great it is too, putting my money where my mouth is would be another story. Since these companies claim these tests are expensive I see that as a half truth and an easy way out. Oh yea and a way to increase profit...............My $.02

AD
Trajan said....
quote:
I even told one purveyor of a certain oil that, provided he buy the engine, I'd use his oil. I'd even spring for the Dyson lab work.

The fact that he declined shows the level of faith in his product.


-----------------------------------------

Using your nutty logic Trajan,would that also apply to Goodyear tire as well if they didn't buy you a car if you promised to install their tires?

Let's also ask Mobil(using your logic-or lack of) to buy you a car if you promise to gas up for ten years with their fuel-with a signed contract even. That would be the most equitable agreement possible,and guess what Xom(mobil) would still tell you......


In sum........using, 'your logic',Goodyear tires are junk,and so is Mobil gas?


Any other brilliant conclusions Trajan,we're all on the edge of our seats!
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
API certs. good or bad are a starting point and help the consumer. Maybe not the greatest testing in the world, but they are something. Sitting back not participating then tooting your own horn IMO about how great a product is would be a bunch of BS.

You want to make claims the product is better then get into the game. I can home brew my own oil and say how great it is too, putting my money where my mouth is would be another story. Since these companies claim these tests are expensive I see that as a half truth and an easy way out. Oh yea and a way to increase profit...............My $.02

AD



Well Ad,what is stopping you? You too can get into the business as a tribologist/oil blender. Show'em how it's done! I bet those fees would make you think twice when it really cuts into your bottom line.

Why not just put the money into making a better product instead,like some are doing........and quite well at that!

Now, what I can't figure out, is.......Big oil with it's deep pockets should have no problems making the Best motor oil lube............SO WHY DON'T THEY?

Aren't they(big oil) already making more than enough from selling fuel.......to us! What gives! I have to buy their lousy gas...........and oil too! Instead,I will support the little guy making a quality lube product!
Well Kirk I look at it this way, at least with the certs the consumer has something to go by. Vs. dealers trying to make a buck pushing a product that isn't certified. Lets use beef for an example, I'd rather have "Grade A Beef" that passed USDA standards than something imported from a country that has no standards at all. I trust the USDA before someone who is paid selling non cert. meat, telling me its good beef. No thanks!

AD
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
Well Kirk I look at it this way, at least with the certs the consumer has something to go by. Vs. dealers trying to make a buck pushing a product that isn't certified. Lets use beef for an example, I'd rather have "Grade A Beef" that passed USDA standards than something imported from a country that has no standards at all. I trust the USDA before someone who is paid selling non cert. meat, telling me its good beef. No thanks!

AD



There is No comparison between between food and a man made product,like motor oil. You don't eat motor oil,you blend it from base stocks.

"dealers trying to make a buck"--------What about the major bucks big oil is making,and it's all certified too!........Doesn't it feel so much better when you're getting..... "officially robbed" by a certified robber!


Show me where the lack of any API "CERTS",has led to any legal,or quality issues with motor oil products.
quote:


There is No comparison between between food and a man made product,like motor oil. You don't eat motor oil,you blend it from base stocks.

"dealers trying to make a buck"--------What about the major bucks big oil is making,and it's all certified too!........Doesn't it feel so much better when you're getting..... "officially robbed" by a certified robber!


Show me where the lack of any API "CERTS",has led to any legal,or quality issues with motor oil products.


As far as food, man raises, cares for, and feeds the animal, then kills it, and brings it to market. Ever eat beef in Mexico?


Here we go with proof, show me proof the non certified oil is better? Not sales propaganda, or bogus tests.

AD
What are these guys(API) really all about...

The association’s chief functions on behalf of the industry include advocacy and negotiation with governmental, legal, and regulatory agencies; research into economic, toxicological, and environmental effects; establishment and certification of industry standards;

Lobbying

API has spent more than $3 million annually for each the last five years (2005 to 2009) on lobbying, and $3.6 million in 2009.[3] In API’s latest quarterly “Lobbying Report” submitted to the US Senate, the organization reported that it had 16 lobbyists supporting it to lobby on various Congressional activities.[4]

http://www.api.org/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A..._Petroleum_Institute


SOUND LIKE POLITICS TO ME! JUST ANOTHER BUREAUCRACY!


This reminds me of how BP got "certified" just before the well blew out!
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
quote:


There is No comparison between between food and a man made product,like motor oil. You don't eat motor oil,you blend it from base stocks.

"dealers trying to make a buck"--------What about the major bucks big oil is making,and it's all certified too!........Doesn't it feel so much better when you're getting..... "officially robbed" by a certified robber!


Show me where the lack of any API "CERTS",has led to any legal,or quality issues with motor oil products.


As far as food, man raises, cares for, and feeds the animal, then kills it, and brings it to market. Ever eat beef in Mexico?


Here we go with proof, show me proof the non certified oil is better? Not sales propaganda, or bogus tests.

AD


Funny how he cries about oil makers and "major bucks." When this "synlube", even on ebay, costs more than three times what M1 costs from say, Pep Boys.

Haven't seen a VOA where M1 failed. Seen synlube ones though.
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
quote:


There is No comparison between between food and a man made product,like motor oil. You don't eat motor oil,you blend it from base stocks.

"dealers trying to make a buck"--------What about the major bucks big oil is making,and it's all certified too!........Doesn't it feel so much better when you're getting..... "officially robbed" by a certified robber!


Show me where the lack of any API "CERTS",has led to any legal,or quality issues with motor oil products.


As far as food, man raises, cares for, and feeds the animal, then kills it, and brings it to market. Ever eat beef in Mexico?


Here we go with proof, show me proof the non certified oil is better? Not sales propaganda, or bogus tests.

AD


Funny how he cries about oil makers and "major bucks." When this "synlube", even on ebay, costs more than three times what M1 costs from say, Pep Boys.

Haven't seen a VOA where M1 failed. Seen synlube ones though.



The Synlube in the longer-run is actually quite inexpensive-100% credit for returned used SL.

NO FAILURES HERE! MY ENGINES SAY SO!

VOA FAILED.......SAYS WHO!

BRUCE!

LET'S SEE.......SAME OIL SAMPLE,SEVERAL TESTS DONE,DIFFERENT RESULTS EACH TIME,EQUALS FAILURE OF TEST/TESTER/EQUIPMENT......NOT OIL.

We have had this discussion regarding 'test results',and how unreliable/inconsistent they can be.

(AD said.)

"Here we go with proof, show me proof the non certified oil is better? Not sales propaganda, or bogus tests."

In all these years with the other,'non certified' oil being in the market place...........we would have found out by now if they were any issues with/'non-certified' oil. TO DATE-NONE! JUST THE OPPOSITE IN FACT. The non-certified oils are looking to be much,much better actually!

Where are all the blown up engines with the non certified oil?... OH,that's right,the blown/sludged up engines all had been running with........API "CERTIFIED" OIL. SO MUCH FOR API,certified oil!


In the end.............the engine-oil/ longevity/performance is the ultimate proving ground.......and all the proof positive in this case for the so-called,Non-cert/oil.
Last edited by captainkirk
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
Tell that to my uncle running PYB in an F Series Ford now approaching 275K. Sorry Kirk Pigs will fly before I put Synlube in anything I own. Especially since there is no real business address.

AD


Millions of cars use dino. That's all they need. Even the 2010 Camaro V6 uses dino. If dino oils were bad, no car maker would spec them for engines. No one would buy them.

Dino oil isn't the problem. Owners who use the wrong viscosity or the "put in an unapproved oil, and ran it way over the manufacturer specified limit, and now expect Ford to pay for your stupidity" kind are the problem.
"Millions of cars use dino. That's all they need."

Bingo!

All these Drama Queens are quite amusing, whacking each other over the head with their sequined bags regarding whose version of synthetic overkill is the one and only. They sound like the guy on the bizarre contact lens commercial moaning about his 'special eyes' and how no one could have his brand, which of course is just a regular old brand that is available everywhere.

I think there may be self-esteem issues at work here. If you convince yourself that your car needs 'special' oil, your car must be special and so are you for owning it, right? When the reality is that most modern dinos are overkill for most passenger vehicle applications.

I just don't see the benefit spending extra money so that when my worn out hulk is towed to the scrap yard, it will have a nice, shiny clean crankcase. I don't want my engine to last forever, I just want it to last as long as the rest of the car.
Lamont- You sound just like my uncle with the F series Ford. He says "for the most vehicles PYB, Mobil 5000, GTX, or any good dino would have made his old Ford last just as long as the very best A*******l brew." He doesn't buy into salesman's tales, or marketing hype.

He says use the recommended grade oil, change it, change the filters, and drive. I remember him asking a know it all type pushing expensive oil to prove him wrong, he's still waiting. I'm glad he set me straight, for a while I fell for he hype.

AD
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:

He says use the recommended grade oil, change it, change the filters, and drive.

AD


Good advice. I use what I do not because it's a "special" car, but because that is what is called for.

If it was spec'd for dino oil, I'd use that. That's what I used in every other car from the 1964 Buick to the 1997 Camaro.

A $32 bottle of goo? Not when what I know works is only $6.27
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lamont B Dumont:
"Millions of cars use dino. That's all they need."

Bingo!


Lamont,what oil is in your vehicles! GROCERY-GETTERS- Synthetic or petroleum.


How do you explain all the talk/use of MMO/ARX,flushes,cleaners,and new oil standards,such as dexos. We have people on these boards as we speak flushing out their engines with various solvents,and detergents,etc. What gives!

https://forums.noria.com/eve/fo...4995/m/625107773/p/1

Explain to us what happened in Europe regarding the black death(sludge) that was epidemic,and also epidemic in America....even with proper OCI's.

Why are so many cars being sold with synthetic in the crankcase brand new. Even the small engines(mowers,etc.) are recommending synthetic.

Why are there now service bulletins mandating to use synthetic oil in some models that originally spec'd mineral oil,because the mineral based oil isn't holding up,no matter how often it's changed or what brand is used!

How many cars are in the junk yard right now with sludge,contrary to what you stated!

How many people have sludge and don't even know it-Yet!

You posted..
"so that when my worn out hulk is towed to the scrap yard, it will have a nice, shiny clean crankcase."

I have been to a few Junkyards over the years,Lamont........Have you? Shiny clean engines........No way!!! Where?


sludge article.....
http://ezinearticles.com/?The-...Oil-Change&id=970590

quoted from above article:

"Aluminum engines with new heat transfer rates combined with hotter internal temperatures for emissions compliance, often overheating oil.

Finer internal tolerances and friction reduction called for lower viscosity motor oils.

These thinner lubricants allowed smaller pores on oil pan uptake screens which tended to clog easily. Front wheel drive compacted entire drive trains in crowded engine bays, where heat from tack-on turbochargers and catalytic converters built up. Cylinder heads evolved with three and four valves per cylinder, variable valve timing, and overhead cams with their associated chains and gears."

End quote-


Lamont,knowing all this,you would put mineral oil in your......"grocery getter",as you call it.

Well I don't know what you drive,however,my vehicles are not...."grocery-getters",as you say.

My vehicles are "paycheck-getters",and money "makers".

My vehicles cost a small fortune,and I am not going to 'cheap out',and install antiquated lubricant in a modern day machine......my high tech engines will be lubed by high tech synthetic oil so as to match the high tech engine technology they are lubricating.

In sum.........if you want your..."grocery getter" towed to the junk yard......... then run mineral oil in the engine! NOT ME! NO THANK YOU!
Last edited by captainkirk
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:

A $32 bottle of goo? Not when what I know works is only $6.27




Yeh sure.......spend $6.27 on (MINERAL)oil that only cost 75 cents...and don't buy the really good oil that lasts 20 times longer,and actually is much,much cheaper in the long run,and can be sent back for 100% credit when so desired. Keep feeding big oil.

Why don't you send some extra money right now to help your friend, "Big Oil"- you love so much........and help poor BP clean up the mess they made with.............DINO OIL!!!
I guess we've been very lucky then. I think poor engine design, like in some Toyota applications, and neglect are the biggest problems with sludge. Running an oil for 50,000 miles, is insane, and stupid, especially in an engine like some of the Toyota engines that are prone to problems by design.

Would Synlube back up a Toyota sludge prone engine that failed with it in the sump for 50,000 miles? LOL We were questioning Amsoil, I don't recall anyone asking about Synlube.

AD
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Trajan:

Even the 2010 Camaro V6 uses dino. If dino oils were bad, no car maker would spec them for engines. No one would buy them.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/...gine+specifications&

All that wonderful engine technology,and then install low tech oil? No,thanks!


Oh,wait............looks like I was right after-all about using synthetic in the V6 Camaro...I knew Gm wouldn't make such a bad choice with motor oil of all things........

//////Engine- (GM recomends using synthetic engine oil)
LS3/L99: 8.0 qts........5W-30 Synthetic Oil(GM uses Mobil 1)
V6: 6.0 qts........5W-30 Synthetic Oil(GM uses Mobil 1)
^^Capacities are WITH replacement of oil filter
LS3/L99 Oil Filter: ACDelco PF48.........K&N HP-1017........Napa Gold 7060
V6: ACDelco PF2129............K&N HP-7003........Napa Gold 7090///////////


http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49508


QUOTES FOR THE NAYSAYERS OF SYNTHETIC OIL.........

"As a past GM tech, I have pulled apart 100k mile engines that were "synthetic since birth" and 100k mile engines that were dino-based users... I believed in synthetic long before I started tearing down motors, but the proof I saw sealed the deal. "
Last edited by captainkirk
And yet.......... no synlube is spec'd by any car maker.

GM 6094M is not the the synthetic oil spec so if your owners manual says that then is came with mineral oil, not synthetic.

GM4718M is General Motors' High Performance engine oil specification. Oils which meet GM4718M tend to be made from synthetic base stocks, so it is often referred to as a "synthetic" specification.

However, not all oils, synthetic or otherwise, are capable of meeting the stringent requirements of GM4718M.
Last edited by trajan
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
And yet.......... no synlube is spec'd by any car maker.



Show me a lawsuit/FTC,ETC,that says not to use it.

Also,show me any-mfg, stipulating.....not-to-use synthetic oil,but to ONLY use MINERAL BASED OILS. SHOW ME THAT ONE!!!!


Never claimed there was a lawsuit that said one could not. What I said was/is the following:

No synlube is spec'd by any carmaker.
Last edited by trajan
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:

Never claimed there was a lawsuit that said one could not. What I said was/is the following:

No synlube is spec'd by any carmaker.



Nor is............ Motul,Amsoil,Royal Purple,Torco,lubro moly,Neo synthetic,Redline,etc,etc.

Yet,these are all very good lubricants....Much better than what the Avg motorist has installed in their engines....


AND YOUR POINT IS....TRAJAN....



OH LOOK,GM ENDORSES WALMART BRAND OIL,AND OTHER OILS BLENDED BY BIG-OIL COMPANIES.............POLITICS AGAIN!!!

http://www.gm.com/corporate/re...oved_engine_oils.pdf


TRAJAN..............KEEP DRINKING THE KOOL-AID........
Last edited by captainkirk
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
And yet.......... no synlube is spec'd by any car maker.



Show me a lawsuit/FTC,ETC,that says not to use it.

Also,show me any-mfg, stipulating.....not-to-use synthetic oil,but to ONLY use MINERAL BASED OILS. SHOW ME THAT ONE!!!!


And show us that car you claim exists down the street with the engine that was ruined by running Synlube.

We have been waiting months for your proof.

Well?
And he calls us liars!

None of them here can get over the fact that you are successfully running Synlube in your vehicles. They love to mention that it costs $32. per bottle, cenveniently not mentioning that you return it and a new supply is sent to you prepaid and no charge in replacement every 50 000 miles! No other company in the World does that!
quote:
Originally posted by inHaliburton:
And he calls us liars!

None of them here can get over the fact that you are successfully running Synlube in your vehicles. They love to mention that it costs $32. per bottle, cenveniently not mentioning that you return it and a new supply is sent to you prepaid and no charge in replacement every 50 000 miles! No other company in the World does that!


--------------------------------------------

Thanks,inHaliburton.......these guys are old school. One even talks about what his 'Uncle recommends'. My uncles ask me,not the other way around.

I bet these guys are from the same stock that thought 100k platinum spark plugs were impossible,let alone 200k iridium plugs. How about 100k tires and brakes......must have sounded crazy at one time.

What I can't figure out is that none of them get the fact they could just install-drain-refill, just like the stuff they use now(every 5-8k),and send in for 100% credit..thus almost free oil in the long-run,if they are afraid of 50k OCI's.

My prediction for the future is that the automakers will install lifetime oil,and lifetime(over-sized-integrated oil filters) because of all the environmental issues.....give it a few more years! They already are doing it with fuel filters,it's part of the pump module.

The fuel filter-pump module system was only really an issue in the beginning if someone went to fill up at a 'mom-n-pop' gas station with sediment laden fuel. Now days people go 150k with those things,no problem.
Kirk my uncle is someone I respect, who is extremely knowledgeable, and in tune with facts. He's not some shill on a message board, who talks to himself. There are many respectable people here who know the product is a hoax.

When you log 275,000 + miles let us know. I read your threads you haven't come close yet.

I do commend you on your new tactic to shill your product thought, nice approach. Did you get those business issues resolved and establish a business location yet? Or is the business location and mailing address still classified?

AD
I saw lots of anecdotes; if there were data, I must have missed them, though not for lack of looking.

RobertC, I'll agree with you that the 'accuracy window' (what us old lab-rats call 'test precision') is generally pretty tight for bench tests (viscosity, TAN, TBN, ICP, etc.) But an engine test stand is a whole different animal. They are run with, well, engines. So you have to start with the much greater variability that comes with using a commercial engine as your 'instrument'. Then you have to multiply that variability by that of the bench test used to evaluate the end-of-test oil. The reason bench test variability is so tight is because they well-controlled, highly isolated simulations of mechanical phenomena. Engine tests tend to sprawl.

I base my opinions on 35 years in laboratories located in various corners of the lube business. These have included analytical testing, product development, release testing and field tech service. But in the absence of that, I'd take the advice of an uncle over a fast-talking sales guy who stands to make a (potentially excessive) profit on my decision.

The notion that buying a synthetic from a compounder-blender is somehow sticking it to 'Big Oil' is the second funniest thing I've heard today, right behind the Korean techno-pop singer doing to Japanese roach-spray commercial. Where to you think those compounder-blenders get their molecules (and often their formulations)? The PAOs are probably coming from ExxonMobil, or some other major with excess capacity. Mineral base oils also probably from ExxonMobil, maybe Shell? (Who has surplus these days?) Addiitves will come from Lubrizol, Ethyl (no mom & pop shops, those), Oronite (Chevron), Infineum (ExxonMobil - Shell), or a few other players that may look small until you figure out who owns them.
quote:
Originally


I base my opinions on 35 years in laboratories located in various corners of the lube business. These have included analytical testing, product development, release testing and field tech service. But in the absence of that, I'd take the advice of an uncle over a fast-talking sales guy who stands to make a (potentially excessive) profit on my decision.

The notion that buying a synthetic from a compounder-blender is somehow sticking it to 'Big Oil' is the second funniest thing I've heard today, right behind the Korean techno-pop singer doing to Japanese roach-spray commercial. Where to you think those compounder-blenders get their molecules (and often their formulations)? The PAOs are probably coming from ExxonMobil, or some other major with excess capacity. Mineral base oils also probably from ExxonMobil, maybe Shell? (Who has surplus these days?) Addiitves will come from Lubrizol, Ethyl (no mom & pop shops, those), Oronite (Chevron), Infineum (ExxonMobil - Shell), or a few other players that may look small until you figure out who owns them.


I'll also read through threads like this and take advise from someone like Mr. Dumont who obviously knows what he's talking about, then someone with a clear sales agenda.

AD
Lamont, I have the greatest respect for you and your ilk. Your knowledge is first-rate and few can question what you post. Similarly, I respect Capt. Kirk who is using a contraversial product. All he is doiing is giving us his personal experience with said product, and his opinions on sludge formation. I also agree with his vision of the future, which could have been yesteryear if it could have been more profitable for big oil than the usual 5- to 8-thousand kilometer oil change intervals we enjoy up here in the Great White North. When that era arrives, we can expect to pay much more for permanant oils to make up for the lack of OCIs on new vehicles. I can recall when cars were assembled without grease nipples and at the time I was positive that it would mean big problems for my car. Of course, I have yet to experience such a problem.
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:

I'll also read through threads like this and take advise from someone like Mr. Dumont who obviously knows what he's talking about, then someone with a clear sales agenda.

AD

I do not believe that Capt. Kirk has a sales agenda. He has no relationship with Synlube except as a customer. Like Kirk, I could care less whether anyone purchases Synlube or not.
quote:
Originally posted by inHaliburton:

I do not believe that Capt. Kirk has a sales agenda. He has no relationship with Synlube except as a customer. Like Kirk, I could care less whether anyone purchases Synlube or not.


Well then three of us agree on something! That is not caring who uses it. I don't care who uses it either. But you'll never find it in anything I own.
I will agree with that. If Kirk uses Syn-Lube and has good luck with it, hey, no problem. I prefer a good name brand oil that is API certified. I have a hard time buying products from a vehicle trunk (the old speaker scam comes to mind). I really would not have a hard time with S-L-4_life, if the website was not from 1996. Anyone with a little computer knowledge can make a decent site with DreamWeaver and cold fusion.

I prefer a quality oil that I can find on the shelf.

Dave
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
quote:
Originally posted by inHaliburton:

I do not believe that Capt. Kirk has a sales agenda. He has no relationship with Synlube except as a customer. Like Kirk, I could care less whether anyone purchases Synlube or not.


Well then three of us agree on something! That is not caring who uses it. I don't care who uses it either. But you'll never find it in anything I own.


Fails to explain why he spent so much bandwidth defending the product and attacking any and all who question it though.

Or why he's afraid to use it despite such a defense.

Or why this kirk person spends so much time pushing it.
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
[QUOTE]
And verifiable, third party tests.


If your certified oils are so good, why do you find it necessary to use that black ARX gunk.

BTW, I used that stuff on my first Focus at about 200 000 km. Had to dig the stuff out of the bottle because it had gone solid just like sludge. Either my engine was pristine, or that stuff did not do as advertised because I noticed no difference whatsoever, except my bank account was somewhat lighter...

I still have 2 bottles. Anyone want them
Well said Lamont. You are right.

Engines today are outlasting the rest of the car. Cars today require such little maintenance. Oils today are better than ever.

I have the greatest respect for XOM's marketing. Much more professional than many of the other companies.

I'm at least glad to see Shell is using the Seq IIIG & IVA instead of the 4- ball wear test to make wear claims. LOL
Well Trajan, as I have told you and the masses at least 5 times since the turn of the year why I will not used Synlube. I cannot use Synlube until warranty is up because the OCI is 5 000 kms.

At the rate I am going, it will not be very long. I drove the truck off the lot May 4th. I now have over 15 000 kms on the odometer. Frankly, I cannot wait for the day when I will install a add-on oil filter system and be able to choose an oil that will not have to be changed for 10s of thousands of kms. I am fed up with this oil change interval of 5- to 8-thousand kms. I am in and out of the jiffy lubes every 2 or 3 weeks.
How long does a car last........?



Consumer Reports ( www.consumerreports.org/) says the average life expectancy of a new vehicle these days is around 8 years or 150,000 miles.



That would be 50 iffy-lube visits for the average motorist! NOT ME! NO THANKS!

My wife loves the fact she never has to have her car serviced for an oil change..........I agree!


We just gas-n-go! Wash-n-wax! Everything is synthetic,even the brake fluid!
Read through all the synlube threads out on the web, and you get alot of claims.

But hard data, that you can actually verify, is rare. So rare that Indiana Jones would die of old age before he found it.

The promoters seem to tell us to keep an open mind..... ok is looking for evidence an example of a closed mind?? Now maybe those that just fell off the turnip truck will automatically believe all sales pitches... that seems to be the nature of most scams.

Anecdotes are no substitute for the lengthy and grueling testing that other oils are subjected to. And no one has presented a shred of evidence that SYNLUBE can pass these tests even once, let alone forever.
Last edited by trajan
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
Read through all the synlube threads out on the web, and you get alot of claims.

But hard data, that you can actually verify, is rare. So rare that Indiana Jones would die of old age before he found it.

The website is a travesty. Very poor example of marketing and information.

You don't claim that a police department uses the stuff, and not provide anything to back it up.

You don't claim to pass tests, and fail to provide anything to back it up.

Other than that, the threads here and at bitog speak volumes about this "oil".



"""MFG approved engine/trans/diff oil"""---Does that include -AR-X?

SYNLUBE HAS ALL THE PROOF I NEED! I DO BELIEVE THE PROOF YOU SPEAK OF, WAS PROVIDED TAJAN!

WOULD YOU LIKE AN INVITATION TRAJAN,PLUS DINNER AND A MOVIE-MAYBE.. A FEW COCKTAILS? SEVERAL FREE CASES OF THE STUFF? YOU'VE ALREADY ASKED FOR A FREE ENGINE--JUST TO TRY IT! WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT?
Up here 50 trips by the time you get outta there is at least $50. for easy math. Thats for bottom end dino probably out of the gun, so who knows what the stuff is. Do you believe the hype from the kid who is trying to upsell you. Anyway, that works out to $2500, plus 15% HST = $2875. Round if off to $3000. Sure makes Synlube look like a bargoonie at $32 per bottle.
quote:
Originally posted by Capt. Kirk:


"""MFG approved engine/trans/diff oil"""---Does that include -AR-X?


Capt., he will never answer why he is using ARX. You know the drill. Got to be a reason for sure cuz the stuff is way over priced for doing nothing. I know cuz I got sucked in with the all the hype over on BOBALOO 4 years ago. He is trying to clean up the engine from using that BMW goop they tell the non-thinkers to use. You have to use it during warranty even if it is no good, hence, his filty engine. That is the only reason to use ARX. He know darn well if he was using Synlube he would have saved a bundle and have a pristine engine just like yours!
Last edited by inhaliburton
quote:
Originally posted by inHaliburton:
Well Trajan, as I have told you and the masses at least 5 times since the turn of the year why I will not used Synlube. I cannot use Synlube until warranty is up because the OCI is 5 000 kms.

At the rate I am going, it will not be very long. I drove the truck off the lot May 4th. I now have over 15 000 kms on the odometer. Frankly, I cannot wait for the day when I will install a add-on oil filter system and be able to choose an oil that will not have to be changed for 10s of thousands of kms. I am fed up with this oil change interval of 5- to 8-thousand kms. I am in and out of the jiffy lubes every 2 or 3 weeks.


Why worry? According to many people here the oil can't void the warranty, the car maker would have to prove the oil is at fault if the engine takes a dump and dies.

Since synlube is such a fantastic oil, and Kirk pours into his new vehicles with no worry, and runs extended drains in new cars, why should you worry? Go for it if you have that much faith in the product. A Shipmate pal of mine dropped the Factory Fill in his new F250 and went with RL 5W20, a non certified oil w/o any fear. Oh yea RL is a real company with an actual street location.

AD
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
quote:
Originally posted by inHaliburton:
Well Trajan, as I have told you and the masses at least 5 times since the turn of the year why I will not used Synlube. I cannot use Synlube until warranty is up because the OCI is 5 000 kms.

At the rate I am going, it will not be very long. I drove the truck off the lot May 4th. I now have over 15 000 kms on the odometer. Frankly, I cannot wait for the day when I will install a add-on oil filter system and be able to choose an oil that will not have to be changed for 10s of thousands of kms. I am fed up with this oil change interval of 5- to 8-thousand kms. I am in and out of the jiffy lubes every 2 or 3 weeks.


Why worry? According to many people here the oil can't void the warranty, the car maker would have to prove the oil is at fault if the engine takes a dump and dies.

Since synlube is such a fantastic oil, and Kirk pours into his new vehicles with no worry, and runs extended drains in new cars, why should you worry? Go for it if you have that much faith in the product. A Shipmate pal of mine dropped the Factory Fill in his new F250 and went with RL 5W20, a non certified oil w/o any fear. Oh yea RL is a real company with an actual street location.

AD


That would mean that he actually has the courage of his convictions. Never seen such rabid defense of a product by one who doesn't/is too scared to use it.
Last edited by trajan
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
[QUOTE]
Why worry? According to many people here the oil can't void the warranty, the car maker would have to prove the oil is at fault if the engine takes a dump and dies.

Since synlube is such a fantastic oil, and Kirk pours into his new vehicles with no worry, and runs extended drains in new cars, why should you worry? Go for it if you have that much faith in the product. A Shipmate pal of mine dropped the Factory Fill in his new F250 and went with RL 5W20, a non certified oil w/o any fear. Oh yea RL is a real company with an actual street location.

AD

AD, a touch of sarcasm. Easy there... Wink

Well, bully for you friend. That's his truck and he's welcome to do what he wants, just like me. Nope, makes no sense to not change the oil for 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 thousand miles. The numbers get real big when transforming to metric. Believe me, the Ford crowd up here are not into very long OCIs. If something with wrong with the motor or driveline, they would laugh me out of the service department if I go in there looking for warranty and can't prove that the oil had been changed every 5 000 kms. Not worth the risk. I can wait. It's unlikely that I'll have a warranty issue with the engine. I've not has one in more than 20 years. Can't remember having an issue ever with the engine or tranny. Mostly recalls over the years.
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:

That would mean that he actually has the courage of his convictions. Never seen such rabid defense of a product by one who doesn't/is too scared to use it.

The big bucks you've been throwing away for all those additives you've been dumping in that dirty engine of yours to clean it up after using that crumby BMW-authorized oil you been using will easily pay for loading up the truck when and if decide to switch to Synlube.

That hocky stuff you are using is not necessary if you use a quality synthetic motor oil and quality oil filter and change according to your operating manual. That's simple, basic, logical maintenance.
quote:
Originally posted by inHaliburton:
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
[QUOTE]
Why worry? According to many people here the oil can't void the warranty, the car maker would have to prove the oil is at fault if the engine takes a dump and dies.

Since synlube is such a fantastic oil, and Kirk pours into his new vehicles with no worry, and runs extended drains in new cars, why should you worry? Go for it if you have that much faith in the product. A Shipmate pal of mine dropped the Factory Fill in his new F250 and went with RL 5W20, a non certified oil w/o any fear. Oh yea RL is a real company with an actual street location.

AD

AD, a touch of sarcasm. Easy there... Wink

Well, bully for you friend. That's his truck and he's welcome to do what he wants, just like me. Nope, makes no sense to not change the oil for 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 thousand miles. The numbers get real big when transforming to metric. Believe me, the Ford crowd up here are not into very long OCIs. If something with wrong with the motor or driveline, they would laugh me out of the service department if I go in there looking for warranty and can't prove that the oil had been changed every 5 000 kms. Not worth the risk. I can wait. It's unlikely that I'll have a warranty issue with the engine. I've not has one in more than 20 years. Can't remember having an issue ever with the engine or tranny. Mostly recalls over the years.


Yea there was a touch of sarcasm, sorry man, it was to bring up a point. My point was there was lots of discussion about warranty claims, and the company having to prove the oil was to blame, even if you used a non approved oil and ran it 3x longer than the mfg wants.

I feel exactly the same way as you, and yes the dealer would probably laugh right in your face for sure! Even if you ran one of the non-certified oils that has an actual mail address for 1 year or 35,000 miles. FMC or anyone else would probably laugh really hard. Save those oils for after the warranty, if you plan on using them. Me I'll pass though!

AD
quote:
I feel exactly the same way as you, and yes the dealer would probably laugh right in your face for sure! Even if you ran one of the non-certified oils that has an actual mail address for 1 year or 35,000 miles. FMC or anyone else would probably laugh really hard. Save those oils for after the warranty, if you plan on using them. Me I'll pass though!

AD



How would the dealer even know the 'synthetic oil' was in the pan for up-to-35k.

In the past,a dealer/mfg "proved" the oil was in the crank way too long with the presence of severe and heavy sludge....because sludge always occurred when the oil was left in too long. I know of people who leased, didn't change the factory fill,blew up the motor now loaded up with sludge,and voided their warranty.

If the engine is running pure synthetic and has a defect,but no sludge,and a clean engine, the engine/part will be fixed under warranty.

You do not have to "Brag" to the dealer what brand of oil you are using,nor how long you left in the oil. Do change the 'factory' oil filter out very early on.

Almost all the people who have had lubricant issues/sludge/varnish-engine failures.....almost 100% of the time had been running mineral oil/and or group III oil.

Lexus/toyota,did have an issues with sludge and spec'd way undersized-laughable tiny oil filters that may have clogged up on few occasion with even amsoil...but not synlube.

However,the bulk of the issues were with mineral oil,and cellulose oil filters.

Those tiny oil filters give no margin of protection,if there is an issue.

http://media.photobucket.com/i...4Runner/IMG_1705.jpg


The tiny oil filters pictured above work great under lab conditions-so the engineers gave the ok to use them,but Bigger is still better. A Larger media,less pressure drop/loss,more capacity-if needed,is always better. This is why I never totally trust the MFG,and their various specs,recommendations..........they are wrong about many things.....can you say recall!!!!

While on the subject of filters....I just replaced the mustang oil filter that happened to be the new fram-x2/100% synthetic media(fram says good up-to-10k) with 10,500 miles on it just to see how well it would perform with synlube. I cut open the filter and the media looked spotless inside. I even dissected the fuzzy type media,and NO dirt,no sludge,no varnish,no metal the filter-mag would have attracted if any,I believe this filter could have gone for another 10k.

The engine-looking inside the oil fill cap opening is also spotless,and uses Zero oil. I normally use a better filter than the very good fram x2 which cost me $6.95 at walmart.......they are now $8.95. I wonder how the Bosh distance plus compares since it does not have the backing screen like the fram X2. Most of these high end filters generally pull down to 5-7 microns at the 50% measure of efficiency(2 minutes on the highway or less)-when they are new,so perhaps they only get better over time.
Last edited by captainkirk
For those of you who think that ARX is cleaning up your engine by virtue of the filter media.....

QUOTED..
"ARX's lanolin esters are semi-solid and rather large particles. I have filtered the virgin product with coffee filters which caught a lot of these particles on the filter. It looked like jelly and I think that this is what you are seeing here."

THE LINK

fficial%26channel%3Ds%26ndsp%3D20%26tbs%3Disch:1" target="_blank">http://www.google.com/imgres?i...%3D20%26tbs%3Disch:1
quote:
Almost all the people who have had lubricant issues/sludge/varnish-engine failures.....almost 100% of the time had been running mineral oil/and or group III oil.


You have to be a complete idiot at this point. Do you not understand that some Grp III's match PAO's and have better solvency? Have you seen what Shell has done with a Grp III? Take a look at their Seq III G performance. It's also the additive package. You really need to get a grip and stop spreading bad information. You're only making yourself look like an idiot. LOL
quote:
Originally posted by Buster:
quote:
Almost all the people who have had lubricant issues/sludge/varnish-engine failures.....almost 100% of the time had been running mineral oil/and or group III oil.


You have to be a complete idiot at this point. Do you not understand that some Grp III's match PAO's and have better solvency? Have you seen what Shell has done with a Grp III? Take a look at their Seq III G performance. It's also the additive package. You really need to get a grip and stop spreading bad information. You're only making yourself look like an idiot. LOL


He has posted link after link that fails to support his claim. From claiming that all those class action suits over sludge prone engines were because of the oil, (They were not.), to links of people who used the wrong oil, went way over on an oci, or just blamed anything but their own stupidity.

Has made claims that using his "oil", or other oils, will result in no sludge. And, so far, has never produced any verifiable results, any independant tests, that back that up.

https://forums.noria.com/eve/fo...4995/m/190100014/p/2 for a taste.
quote:
You have to be a complete idiot at this point



You really need to get a grip and stop spreading bad information. You're only making yourself look like an idiot. LOL
------------------------------------------


The only idiots in this world are the ones....like yourself.......buster........who deny..........H-I-S-T-O-R-Y !!!!!!!! Who deny the F-A-C-T-S!!!


Do you have a problem with what has already happened,historically,FACTUALLY- leading up to my posts.

Prove to me I have been wrong about.......anything I have posted thus far. I have made my case several times over by now!

Prove to me I am wrong when I state that most of the cars that have/had lube issues were running mineral oil most of the time,and group III some of the time,and typically a paper type,undersized oil filter.


Prove to me that the same percent of cars with lube issue running mineral/and or group III,were equal to the percent of cars running group IV with lube issues.......BET YOU CAN'T! HISTORY WON'T LET YOU!

Where are all those sludged up Toyotas and so forth with the Group IV stuff!

Most of us readily Admit that all lubes across the board have gotten better,including group III. However, I still choose Group IV,and the facts back me!


quote: Almost all the people who have had lubricant issues/sludge/varnish-engine failures.....almost 100% of the time had been running mineral oil/and or group III oil.


http://www.zddplus.com/TechBri...%20Base%20Stocks.pdf

The above statement,Buster...................STANDS!!!!!!!!!!!!
Last edited by captainkirk
My Drop to the bucket:

Just like oil will surface to the surface no matter what BP may claim about it, lies and deceptions will eventually surface too.

Yes those who lie and deceive and make it their business model will still call it something different rather than admitting they ALWAYS lied about EVERYTING, or at minimum “most everything”.

Cae in point AMSOIL, whit slogans like “First in Synthetics” but we have already discussed it.
The fact that most of AMSOIL formulations are not at all 100% “true” synthetics is becoming rather obvious as they have to increase price of their products by 3 to 6% as of August 1, 2010.

WHY ? PAO and Ester are both DOWN in cost from ALL suppliers in USA !!
But API Group III is up 6 to 10 % - Aha may be that is why, and since API Group III is 1/3 the price of pure PAO, then only if it is a substantial portion of the mix (like 50%) that would force this price increase !!!
API Group III base stock is at best even with all the additives good for about 10,000 miles of service with 16,000 being the absolute limit.
Small number of AMSOIL customers with over 90 different vehicle models spanning as much as 10 years for each model suddenly have “problems” with loosing oil pressure due to clogged oil filters and plugged oil pump screens.
This small number even if there was just ONE vehicle problem for each one listed would be in 1,200 to 1,500 range !!!
How does oil filter get “plugged” so much that oil no longer flows through it even with by-pass valve?
Oxidized LOW COST base stock, which turned to yoghurt like goo or sludge that is why!
But following in the footsteps albeit with very small shoes that were imprinted on the American Consumers by Toyota, of course it is the customers FAULT by not changing the oil filters (Claimed to last 25,000 miles) – as often as recommended by the OEM = 6,000 to 7,500 miles !!!
Or as often as 3 to 6 months – so what gives AMSOIL ?
May be rebranding SHELL products that are based on API Group III is not such a good idea after all, better go back to your roots and once again start rebranding Exxon Jet Oil, bit ooups that costs $10 to $15 per Quart nowadays so selling it for $7.00 with a discount just will not work.

May be it is time for IPO. As selling a hot air (viz-a-viz TESLA) is far more profitable in USA than actually making any product at all.
PS: The Prices of SynLube have been the same since 1996, if there was even a drop of Petroleum in it we would not be able to do that – keep the price the same !
From AMSOIL Web:

“A small number of customers with Honda, Acura, Toyota, Lexus and Pontiac vehicles with Toyota-built engines have reported that their vehicles’ oil pressure light has illuminated prior to reaching the end of the AMSOIL-recommended 25,000-mile drain interval.”

And their small number vehicle list:
following applications:
• 2001-2010 Honda
• 2002-2010 Acura
• 1992-2006 Chrysler imports
• 1993-1997 Ford Probe
• 1996-2010 Nissan/Infiniti
• 1971-2000 Mazda
• 1999-2000 Mercury Villager
• 1990-2010 Mitsubishi
• 2004-2007 Saturn
I rest my case !!!
They'll call it a small problem, replace the filter and send the customer a qt of oil. Once the oil lite comes on the damage has been done. It might not be immediate, and that's Amsoil's out, but damage has been done.

How much once again Amsoi's out and anyones's guess. A year two down the road if the car starts blowing smoke or using oil you think Amsoil will help? I don't.

I'll stick with what I can buy locally and change when the mfg suggests. Extended drain oils and filters are not my cup of tea.

Good point Trajan: The last thing Miro wants is anything floating to the surface about his oil. Somethings are best left at the bottom of the sea!

AD
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:

I'll stick with what I can buy locally and change when the mfg suggests. Extended drain oils and filters are not my cup of tea.
AD


No reasonable person should have a problem with that. Quality dino/synth oil and filter along with a reasonable oci is the way to go.

Too many links have been posted that show what happens when you don't.

I'm going to try a 10K oci with a filter change when I add oil. (Burn a qt @6k)
Trajan quoted..
quote:
I'm going to try a 10K oci with a filter change when I add oil. (Burn a qt @6k)



AAHHH...the truth comes out once again! You burn oil,and have sludge/varnish issues(You admit to using A-RX).............GOTCHA !!!!!



So, let's sum up your "STELLAR" results with this..........the so called "MFG APPROVED OIL" you're using and swear by.... is really working out well I see.......engine is burning the stuff,and the oil also sludge/varnishes up the engine. All those 'expensive' oil changes with your "Approved oil",and all the flushes,rinses,chemicals,TCW3 in the fuel(don't tell BMW/EPA),etc,etc,............SOUNDS LIKE YOU HAVE PROVEN MY POINT QUITE WELL-conventional wisdom/techniques don't work so well...do they!


The above issues Trajan is dealing with,is the reason why I use Synlube.

I have zero sludge,zero varnish,(zero oil burning/loss/evaporation),no chemicals or flushes ever needed,and No worries!
Last edited by captainkirk
These are all quotes from the 'other site',where everyone is still hung up on VOA,and lab results being unreliable.
-------------------------------------
"As for “simple” VOA and UOA Lab results, they are traditionally variable. Those from Oil Company Labs when testing their own products are certainly better. At a recent visit to Daimler AG in Unterturkheim, I was assured that they do their own VOAs on FF lubricants as a matter of course. Variances in supply quality do occur!

and the 0w-40 is not synthetic basestock? also, viscosity as published is an average value not an exact one. look at

Yes. Most oil companies give averages on their PDS sheets and UOA's all depend on the calibration of the test equipment and which human did them. I've had VOA's done in the past where I questioned the additive level. Resent samples three times from the same bottle and got back three different answers. All within the 10% range

The Blackstone 100C vis of 13.36 cSt is quite a bit off the M1 PDS spec' of 14.0 cSt (used to be 14.3 in the not too distant past).
That's something to keep in mind when reviewing UOAs from this lab particularly when assessing how shear prone M1 0W-40 is reported to be.


This seems to happen far too often. I know VOA/UOA are relatively inexpensive via Blackstone but having to send out a sample to verify a sketchy result does add up. It seems the adage "you get what you pay for" does apply to oil analyses. "

VOA's are not a good way to answer your question Shup1. They are good to have for reference in comparison to UOA's to see what changes occured during use. You cannot rate an oil bt its VOA


Some might be close, but when a VOA is even over a year old, it's pretty much old news. When a VOA is 4+ years old, there is almost 100% certainty it been changed by the formulator. Driven by improvement, specification chasing, cost, new and discontinued additives - lubricant formulas change.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SAVE YOUR MONEY GUYS. ......ALL THAT REALLY MATTERS IS LONG TERM PERFORMANCE,AND ACTUAL RESULTS!!! THOSE TESTS(VOA/UOA) ARE CERTAINLY GOOD AT DRAINING YOUR WALLETS-IF NOTHING ELSE! THAT'S WHY I HAVE NEVER BOTHERED!
Last edited by captainkirk
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
Kirk- I hardly think Trajan has a problem. Burning a qt of oil in 6000 miles is not considered a problem. A car mfg considers oil consumption a problem when an engine uses more than 1 qt/1000 miles, anything else is considered normal.

AD


I don't burn any oil at all....ZERO! Even the German VW 1.8T uses almost Zero oil. I am going to check my records because it might be very close to Zero oil use!

I also don't do flushes with A-RX like Trajan speaks of. Don't need to!

The VW 1.8t by design should use more oil than Trajan's BMW,not way less,if any at all,unless of course the 1.8t has,you guessed it....... SYNLUBE!!!


On a side note.....


Here is a quote from Bob from a guy bragging how clean his engine is with pics using Dino oil. I could see right off the bat this engine was flushed,and guess what.........

the quote...

"Usually 4000 miles. I put on 500 miles a week so I have had intervals slip to 5000. Most of the miles I put on the car are highway miles. And I usually add a quart of kerosene to the crank case and let it idle for 3 to 5 minutes before draining." (is that good for the cams?)

------------------------------------

I have noticed a distinct pattern with all the Dino/mineral users bragging about their clean engines,and how great mineral oil is,but.......they All flush their engines with chemicals/solvents.......THEN TAKE PHOTOS OF A NOW SOLVENT FLUSHED ENGINE-GIVING THE FALSE ILLUSION THE MINERAL OIL KEPT THE ENGINE CLEAN! What gives? I never flush my engines now days..........don't need to!

the link..

http://www.google.com/imgres?i...%3D20%26tbs%3Disch:1
Last edited by captainkirk
We have hundreds of BMW customers about 1/2 of them swithced to SynLube at very low mileage typically before the first oil change (BECAUSE THE free SERVICE WAS JUST TOO much hastle, like coming back to pick up the car 4 hours later only to find it was not even toucvhed yet) - and with engines from 4 cylinder to 12 cylnder and they all go at least 16,000 miles before adding any oil (and most never fo between filter changes at 25,000 miles intervals). Then the other half switched AFTER the free BMW maintenance was over, or when they bought USED BMW (like Trajan did) and their oil consumption on the SAME ENGINES in SAME MY use as much as quart every 3,000 miles - which of course BMW claims is quite fine AND NORMAL !!!

So the problem really is that the FREE maintenance with the Glorified ZERO W Motor Oil causes so much wear in the 50,000 miles or 4 years that it turns ANY BMW engine in USA into Oil Burner.

And it is not one case in few hundred but 1/2 of the few hundred.

The BMW engines in Rolls Royces are the ones that get worn out the most.

So if you think the BMW Dealers use the best there is for their FREE service bit, perhaps you should do VOA on both the bottle and the stuff they pump in - I can make almost certain bet that the two are not the same, they probably use SA oil and just pocket the $75 from BMW that they get for OIL, FILTER and LABOR which probably is not enough to cover the genuine stuff.

Amazingly only MINI Dealers for most part seem to use good oil or else that NON BMW engine is more tollerant of poor quality oil.

Germans simple are not capable to make engines that do not burn oil - for PORSCHE 600 to 900 miles to a quart is OK and it is the only car in the world that has OIL LEVEL GAUGE (911) there sure is a reason why even with 14 Liters of oil it is needed !!!
quote:
Buster


Well you now have prood how "GOOD AS PAO" really is as AMSOIL mostly uses SHELL "synthetic" which they re-brand and NOW they have all these problems with thousands of cars of all makes and models clogging oil filters - that problem AMSOIL did NOT have in the past when they used PAO from Mobil.

Since neither ExxonMobil or Chevron or BP sell anything to AMSOIL, they really no longer have even a drop of PAO in any formulation - that is more involved that straight re-label.

The great "solvency" of Group III is usually gone in as little as 2,500 miles due to evaporative loss of the "solvent molecules" and oxidation of the others.

BAD PAO (Non hydrogenated, undistilled C10)has volatility of less than 6%, a good one (C12 distilled and then hydrogenated) is in 2% to 4% range and Group III is 15% and above.
quote:
Originally posted by Miro Kefurt:
We have hundreds of BMW customers about 1/2 of them swithced to SynLube at very low mileage typically before the first oil change (BECAUSE THE free SERVICE WAS JUST TOO much hastle, like coming back to pick up the car 4 hours later only to find it was not even toucvhed yet) - and with engines from 4 cylinder to 12 cylnder and they all go at least 16,000 miles before adding any oil (and most never fo between filter changes at 25,000 miles intervals). Then the other half switched AFTER the free BMW maintenance was over, or when they bought USED BMW (like Trajan did) and their oil consumption on the SAME ENGINES in SAME MY use as much as quart every 3,000 miles - which of course BMW claims is quite fine AND NORMAL !!!

So the problem really is that the FREE maintenance with the Glorified ZERO W Motor Oil causes so much wear in the 50,000 miles or 4 years that it turns ANY BMW engine in USA into Oil Burner.

And it is not one case in few hundred but 1/2 of the few hundred.

The BMW engines in Rolls Royces are the ones that get worn out the most.

So if you think the BMW Dealers use the best there is for their FREE service bit, perhaps you should do VOA on both the bottle and the stuff they pump in - I can make almost certain bet that the two are not the same, they probably use SA oil and just pocket the $75 from BMW that they get for OIL, FILTER and LABOR which probably is not enough to cover the genuine stuff.

Amazingly only MINI Dealers for most part seem to use good oil or else that NON BMW engine is more tollerant of poor quality oil.

Germans simple are not capable to make engines that do not burn oil - for PORSCHE 600 to 900 miles to a quart is OK and it is the only car in the world that has OIL LEVEL GAUGE (911) there sure is a reason why even with 14 Liters of oil it is needed !!!


You can, of course, prove that. Oh, wait, look who I'm asking......

So ummmm, what BMWs are factory filled with, what did you call it, 0w motor oil.

Which ones use SA oil and, as you claim, pocket the difference?

Asking you to prove anything is an excersize in futility. But unlike some posters here, one especially, I don't take the word of one like you.

Must be rough, knowing that I'll use quality, proven oil, over that garbage you peddle.
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
quote:
Originally posted by Miro Kefurt:
We have hundreds of BMW customers about 1/2 of them swithced to SynLube at very low mileage typically before the first oil change (BECAUSE THE free SERVICE WAS JUST TOO much hastle, like coming back to pick up the car 4 hours later only to find it was not even toucvhed yet) - and with engines from 4 cylinder to 12 cylnder and they all go at least 16,000 miles before adding any oil (and most never fo between filter changes at 25,000 miles intervals). Then the other half switched AFTER the free BMW maintenance was over, or when they bought USED BMW (like Trajan did) and their oil consumption on the SAME ENGINES in SAME MY use as much as quart every 3,000 miles - which of course BMW claims is quite fine AND NORMAL !!!

So the problem really is that the FREE maintenance with the Glorified ZERO W Motor Oil causes so much wear in the 50,000 miles or 4 years that it turns ANY BMW engine in USA into Oil Burner.

And it is not one case in few hundred but 1/2 of the few hundred.

The BMW engines in Rolls Royces are the ones that get worn out the most.

So if you think the BMW Dealers use the best there is for their FREE service bit, perhaps you should do VOA on both the bottle and the stuff they pump in - I can make almost certain bet that the two are not the same, they probably use SA oil and just pocket the $75 from BMW that they get for OIL, FILTER and LABOR which probably is not enough to cover the genuine stuff.

Amazingly only MINI Dealers for most part seem to use good oil or else that NON BMW engine is more tollerant of poor quality oil.

Germans simple are not capable to make engines that do not burn oil - for PORSCHE 600 to 900 miles to a quart is OK and it is the only car in the world that has OIL LEVEL GAUGE (911) there sure is a reason why even with 14 Liters of oil it is needed !!!


You can, of course, prove that. Oh, wait, look who I'm asking......

So ummmm, what BMWs are factory filled with, what did you call it, 0w motor oil.

Which ones use SA oil and, as you claim, pocket the difference?

Asking you to prove anything is an excersize in futility. But unlike some posters here, one especially, I don't take the word of one like you.

Must be rough, knowing that I'll use quality, proven oil, over that garbage you peddle.



Proof............NO PROBLAMO!

http://www.google.com/search?h...BMW+BURN+OIL&spell=1



Hows that 'Quality proven oil' working out?...oh that's right......your engine sludges and you burn oil. SEE ABOVE LINK!

Oh,Oh.............BIMMER SLUDGE......Now I see why Trajan uses A-RX

http://www.google.com/images?h...ource=og&sa=N&tab=wi


So much for more frequent oil changes........right from Bimmer forums too!

quote-
There is no link between more frequent oil changes and avoiding the unfortunate sludging shown above. I think if you look at the history of these cars, either the wrong oil was used and/or the head gasket is blown allowing coolant into the oil. One post even mentioned the sudden onset of problems after the car overheated.



I used to be in the Car business. The real Germans who are really into engineering,were not very impressed with BMW,ONLY BENZ! But that was a few years ago I have to say!
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
Kirk- I hardly think Trajan has a problem. Burning a qt of oil in 6000 miles is not considered a problem. A car mfg considers oil consumption a problem when an engine uses more than 1 qt/1000 miles, anything else is considered normal.

AD


You're right. It isn't a problem. It's far from a problem. The dealer doesn't see it as a problem. My mechanic doesn't. People who own and drive these cars, unlike kirk, don't see it as a problem.

No synlube, no worries.
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ADFD1:
Kirk- I hardly think Trajan has a problem. Burning a qt of oil in 6000 miles is not considered a problem. A car mfg considers oil consumption a problem when an engine uses more than 1 qt/1000 miles, anything else is considered normal.

AD


You're right. It isn't a problem. It's far from a problem. The dealer doesn't see it as a problem. My mechanic doesn't. People who own and drive these cars, unlike kirk, don't see it as a problem.

-------------------------------------------

Well...then your all blind...or ignoring the obvious! Your engines are not in stellar condition.

If I were the dealer, I would also tell you the car is fine,and then say........"have a nice day and be sure to come back when the warranty runs out--and your ready for an engine overhaul"............OUT OF WARRANTY OF COURSE! LOL
Just a simple question:

Why is $46,000 car worth only $14,000 when it runs out of the 4 year 50,000 miles Warranty ?

That is the $32,000 question !!!

May be there is reason for it = it is BMW....

The Ultimate sucker machine, and the fact that it sucks oil too; is just part of the "Unique owner Experience".


Infact BMW depreciation rate is just about the same as that of a HYUNDAI, i.e. in used car business it is valued the same, that alone should be a clue.

(Except for MINI which while sold by BMW dealers from spearate showroom is not real BMW - fortunately, and thus it has the hihgest reseale value in the car industry)
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
All cars depreciate, it's called reality. How about those Yugos? What a joke they were.

AD


The explaination goes over his head. He should also realize that, in time, many cars do increase in value. Depends on many things though.

A pristine 1969 Camaro with the right options is worth more than a new 2011 model. Today, an old Isetta, well, http://autos.aol.com/used-list...-BMW/model1-Isetta/, which is far more than it costs when new.

He's only frothing at the mouth due to the very harsh light we've thrown on synlube. and the product came up short.

I would also explain to him that the 15K service on a BMW is much more than a simple oil change. But that would go over his head too.

We all know what a Yugo is worth. Even an Edsel is worth far more.

I also see that, and there is no surprise there, that once again, he can't back his "claims".

A free hint miro. Making fun of BMW doesn't faze me. Just displays the on going ignorance you convey. Good for a laugh or two.

Yugos sell for what, $100, if that now?
Last edited by trajan
BMW uses low tension piston ring sets on purpose. They provide less parasitic drag on the cylinder walls and superior cylinder lubrication at high RPM high load. Small and large high specific output engines from many brands use this strategy. Not a problem. They are designed this way for A reason. Its not the oils fault they chose this engineering compromise.
This is from "Imperial Palace" in Las Vegas

"And for the collector who has everything, a yellow 1990 Yugo convertible is on display and costs only $15,000."

Previous one sold for $22,500 on Auto Auction - yes these are PERFECT CARS and not $100 beat up and abused junkers.

But then Most BMW drivers do not beat up the car bodies as much as Yugo drivers did.

Still for $5,200 car to be worth 3 times its original price is rather good return on investment.

As for any "value" - anyone can advertise anything on E-bay for any amount that does not set the value, but auction prices do (If sold).

The LOWEST priced YUGO sold at auction was for $7,500 in 2007 the highest one $22,500 a cabrio of which only 60 were made.

And guess what it was one of the 25 cabrios equipped with SynLube right out of the factory in Serbia.

And while BMW depreciates at the same rate as Hyundai, at least Hyundai warranty is twice as long and it does not burn any oil.

Even YUGOS with SynLube went at minimum 20,000 miles before they needed any oil, and for that matter OKA which I also have used only 2 quarts in 50,000 miles and that engine being 2 cylinder revs up to 9,000 RPM and is @ 4,200 to 4,500 at highway speeds about double that of any BMW at cruise speed.

Yet the 1970 design Piston Rings do just fine, none have ever broken and no engines have ever seized. The EFI OKA puts out 45 HP out of 750 cc @ 6,500 RPM, so that actually qualifies as HIGH OUTPUT.

So theoretical experimentations on high budget customer vehicles is not really the "reliable or dependable" way to build a vehicle or engine.

But as long as someone is willing to pay $20 a day just for depreciation, there always will be engineers that need to justify their existence and employment and will make their reinventions of a wheel look like the latest and the greatest.

The fact that it is a design or in service falure is none of their concern, after all they never realy drive what they have desgned, or own vehicles made by the company they work for manufacturers.

Years ago I had a pleasure at SAE meetting to sit next to a BMW engineer from Germany and after some brief conversation I found:

1.) He did not own a car - he rented what ever was available where ever he was on business, mostly flying about USA.
2.) His wife had Citroen
3.) His son an Opel.

Really strange I thought

PS: But then I found out recently that MR. Lutz did not own or drive a GM vehicle either .... and then he promotes VOLT, ah well

At least I drive OKA, YUGO, MORETTI, and BERTONE and shortly will also have a BREMACH - all SynLube Lube-4-Life equipped of course.

But really the ISSUE WAS:
Why AMSOIL Clogs filters on so many vehicles ?

Can anyone answer that one ???
KBB values based on real transaction prices in 2010

BLUE BOOK® PRIVATE PARTY VALUE
Close
Private Party Value
Kelley Blue Book Private Party Value is the amount a buyer can expect to pay when buying a used car from a private party. The Private Party Value assumes the vehicle is sold "As Is" and carries no warranty (other than any remaining factory warranty). The final sale price may vary depending on the vehicle's actual condition and local market conditions. This value may also be used to derive Fair Market Value for insurance and vehicle donation purposes.

1990 YUGO GV Value

Excellent $2,300
Good $2,150
Fair $1,650

Not bad for a car that was $5,225 MSRP and sold for about $4,900 in 1990 to be worth that much 20 years later.

This is data from the came company that depreciates BMW 62% in the first year of ownership, while MINI is worth 62% of its price 36 months later.

But still YUGO tops the list it is worth 41% of its original price (if not beat up) 20 years LATTER !!!

Compare that to most cars that are worth that much (less) just in 12 to 18 months !!!
Compare that with BMW and that is one of the "top" models: 2010 BMW M6
MSRP $$106,225.00
New 100% $102,350.00
2 45% $46,057.50
3 37% $37,869.50
4 30% $30,705.00
5 24% $24,564.00

It is 45% of its value after just 12 months, dont you wish you have YUGO ? It's value drops almost $4,000 even before it is driven off the dealer's lot - how is that for a "great" car ?
MY point of all of this is, in case you have missed it:

Great vehicles no matter the make or model retain its value over time.

Poor vehicles lose their value very very quickly.


As simple as that.

If BMW retained it's value Trajan would not be able to afford even the used one.


NO ONE Can argue with that, the data is there and available to every one, but if you elect to stick your head into a sand dune that of course is you privilege.

Similarily data is availalble about the problems conventional lubircants cause, like sludge, gel, varnish, excessive oil consumption, and so on.

I accept the fact that BMW may have "special" low tension rings, but that does not explain why cars converted to a better lubricant at low mileage DO NOT consume much oil, while those serviced at BMW for FREE do develop such "problem" when the warranty is over or in just 50,000 miles.

NO one seems to report that their car lost 2 quarts or more before the FIRST service was due, but by 45,000 iles the same vehicle "burns" oil - WHY ???

May be the 15,000 + service intervals are just TOO LONG for the stuff the BMW dealers use in these vehicles.

Clearly when the engine leaves the BMW assembly it is as perfect as can be, it is only latter that it develops the "oil consumption", so something DOES NOT last.

And if the oil you use makes a difference then of course it is lubrication related issue.

Well actually more like Tribological Issue as friction, wear and lubrication all play a role in that scenario.

And do not think of this as SynLube promotion, simple as I have stated before we have BMW customers that did not use the FREE BMW service and NONE have oil consumption issues, while those that waited for the FREE and WARRANTY to expire FIRST before they switched all are asking why is my car burning so much oil.

It is not one in many vehclies issue; it is statistically proveable trend with identical experience shared my many.

Just search the web -------
I find it quite funny reading this. Miro are you trying to say a Yugo is a better car than a BMW? Then trying to make the case for your oil?

Bad move, pick another car, YUGO was/is a POS. You're not selling your oil by pointing out that Yugo is a good car. People vote with their check books, and YGUO failed horribly in the USA. Anyone I ever heard talk about them called them throw away cars, and garbage. I think most here will agree?

Lets take a vote: Pick a car to own, anything from BMW, or anything from YUGO?

Then or now?

I'll sound off with BMW.

AD
Just to further the fact that miro doesn't know what he's talking about

Oil Service 15,000 miles

Replace oil and filter
Reset service indicator
Check front brake pads
Check rear brake pads
Check parking brake operation
Replace cabin air filter

Inspection 1 30,000 miles or 24 months (whatever is first)

The above, plus:

Check manual transmission fluid level. (If equipped)
Check all underhood componets/hoses for fluid leaks.
Check and drivebelts and replace if necessary.
Check steering and suspension components.
Check exhaust systems and mountings.
Check condition and operation of seatbelts.
Check headlight beam alignment.
Check operation of headlight/windshield washer system.
Check engine management system.
Road test.

45,000 miles/36 months

Repeat oil service.

60,000/48 months: Inspection II

repeat Ins 1
Replace spark plugs
Check drive shaft boots.

There's more to it,Like air filter changes, but it's more than the oil change he claims.

What he also doesn't mention is that the dealer arranges a loaner car for you. (I've had two 3 series sedans and a new Toyota Camry. The guy who owns the BMW dealership also owns the Toyota and Lexus dealership next to each other.)

You can of course wait at the dealer, but they give you a free loaner, so why bother.
quote:
Originally posted by BKL98MK8LSC:
BMW uses low tension piston ring sets on purpose. They provide less parasitic drag on the cylinder walls and superior cylinder lubrication at high RPM high load. Small and large high specific output engines from many brands use this strategy. Not a problem. They are designed this way for A reason. Its not the oils fault they chose this engineering compromise.


Very well said. Also, I didn't know that. Thanks!!
Last edited by trajan
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
I find it quite funny reading this. Miro are you trying to say a Yugo is a better car than a BMW? Then trying to make the case for your oil?

Bad move, pick another car, YUGO was/is a POS. You're not selling your oil by pointing out that Yugo is a good car. People vote with their check books, and YGUO failed horribly in the USA. Anyone I ever heard talk about them called them throw away cars, and garbage. I think most here will agree?

Lets take a vote: Pick a car to own, anything from BMW, or anything from YUGO?

Then or now?

I'll sound off with BMW.

AD


BMW, Porsche, Trans AM/Camaro SS. 2011 Mustang 5.0. Even my mother's 2001 Alero. A nice car really, even though it has a 4cyl. Corvette.

Yugos have the best front end protection around..... it's called a tow truck.

http://freeweb.deltha.hu/zastava.in.hu/jokes.htm

Consumer Reports, in its review of the Yugo, called the car "hard to recommend at any price" and concluded that "you'd be better off buying a good used car than a new Yugo."

The Yugo stands out as the only car from a non-U.S. manufacturer to make the Hagerty Insurance "Most Questionable Cars" list.

"I threatened a couple of times to buy one and leave it in somebody's driveway," said McKeel Hagerty, president of Hagerty Insurance.
quote:
Originally posted by BKL98MK8LSC:
BMW uses low tension piston ring sets on purpose. They provide less parasitic drag on the cylinder walls and superior cylinder lubrication at high RPM high load. Small and large high specific output engines from many brands use this strategy. Not a problem. They are designed this way for A reason. Its not the oils fault they chose this engineering compromise.


------------------------------------------

This low ring pressure is not an engineering compromise.......it's an engineering achievement!


All,if not most vehicles are now able to use low ring tension because of modern day engineering techniques that allow for very,very precise bore/piston tolerances that could not be achieved years ago.

Years ago,especially during a rebuild,a very tight install/ring pressure was needed so that the engine could "run in-break in"....and if done correctly, yielded a well broken-in engine,that used little oil,and now had a very good 'fit'. Anyone who raced with a brand new car back in the day would surely scuff/score the cylinder walls/piston-rings/skirts,etc. before a thorough run-in was achieved......causing an oil burner!


Today,the engines are leaving the factory with little break in needed,because the tolerances,and quality control are that much better............especially in a BMW. Yes,this does allow for less friction/drag, better throttle response,less heat,and better fuel economy!


Also realize that less engine break-in also equates to less metallic debris in the engine during this critical period,and less overall initial wear.


It would make absolutely no sense to fuss over all the emission/EPA issues/hurdles, only to build a 'sloppy' engine that burns oil,damages the cat,and pollutes the environment....that would be absurd. Also,compression loses must be kept to a minimum,otherwise any and all fuel economy improvements would be lost due to the loss of power from excess blow-by!


If you installed the best motor oil in these German cars,or any car when they are brand new,or close to new.....they will not 'burn',or use oil.

The best motor oil if you're wondering, is not on store shelves anywhere in America. It has to be special ordered! Or, if you live in Europe,you would be able to find really good motor oil unlike on American store shelves!

Also realize that really smart European motorists don't need to fuss over VOA/UOA like some on these boards are doing and spending a small fortune to analyze.. 'garbage motor oil' That never has made any sense to me. You are throwing good money after-bad on that one!


Engine design link.......(six years old)......tolerances are even better now since it was written

http://webcache.googleusercont...=us&client=firefox-a

A newer link for the motor heads.....

http://www.underhoodservice.co...9778/Advances_i.aspx
Last edited by captainkirk
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
Since the tolerances are so much better and engines tighter, I'd stay clear of that 50 grade oil you're pushing and follow mfg specs, using an approved oil.


No point mail ordering anything, pick a good synthetic oil from a reputable company and have at it.


AD


Stay clear of 50 Grade.....Why?

The European engineers are all for heavier oil. That includes 10w-60.

http://www.voltronic-germany.com/Motor-Oil-10W60.htm


You say pick a good oil(in stores)................where?

Trajan did what you say and now look at his engine. Burns oil,needs to be flushed all the time,etc. So,hows that MFG 'approved' oil working out?...............

http://www.motorator.com/uploa...Line_Oil_10W60_3.jpg
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
Since the tolerances are so much better and engines tighter, I'd stay clear of that 50 grade oil you're pushing and follow mfg specs, using an approved oil.


No point mail ordering anything, pick a good synthetic oil from a reputable company and have at it.


AD


One of his own links states that one way to combat sludge is to use the correct viscosity. Using synlube in a Mustang isn't it.
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
Since the tolerances are so much better and engines tighter, I'd stay clear of that 50 grade oil you're pushing and follow mfg specs, using an approved oil.


No point mail ordering anything, pick a good synthetic oil from a reputable company and have at it.


AD


One of his own links states that one way to combat sludge is to use the correct viscosity. Using synlube in a Mustang isn't it.



How would you know about mustangs and synlube.

You own neither.

I own a mustang with synlube in the engine. It uses ZERO OIL,HAS ZERO SLUDGE. The oil filter cut open with 10,500 was spotless. The engine is spotless.

This is my car, and that makes me an expert for this particular car and what is going on with the engine and so forth.

I also cut open the oil filter on the VW 1.8t filter and it too was-spotless at 10k on just the filter! I could have gone to 20k on that filter,easily!

Remember,the 1.8t is a known sludge monster-and I have ZERO SLUDGE,ZERO ISSUES. No check engine light,spotless engine innards,and always passes inspection/emissions. The biggest highlight with this car is the car wash.

Unlike Your German car that burns oil,and needs engine flushes.............my German car doesn't have those issues.


This is what happens when you go to the dealer for an oil change...

http://www.motorator.com/uploa...Line_Oil_10W60_3.jpg


YOU ALLOW THEM TO DESTROY YOUR ENGINE WITH---'APPROVED OIL' LOL
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
Since the tolerances are so much better and engines tighter, I'd stay clear of that 50 grade oil you're pushing and follow mfg specs, using an approved oil.


No point mail ordering anything, pick a good synthetic oil from a reputable company and have at it.


AD


Stay clear of 50 Grade.....Why?

The European engineers are all for heavier oil. That includes 10w-60.

http://www.voltronic-germany.com/Motor-Oil-10W60.htm


You say pick a good oil(in stores)................where?

Trajan did what you say and now look at his engine. Burns oil,needs to be flushed all the time,etc. So,hows that MFG 'approved' oil working out?...............

http://www.motorator.com/uploa...Line_Oil_10W60_3.jpg


Good stores, Walmart, AAP, Auto Zone, back home, East Coast, Auto Barn. That's where I get my oil, not from out of a trunk or a car in an alley way. Or give a CC# to someone w/o a business address and pray I get my oil.

A qt of oil in 6000 miles is no oil burner, ask any good mechanic.

Keeping an engine internals clean is something a lot of car buffs do. My father and uncle call it preventative maint. It spilled over to me. A pint of MMO for a 1000 miles or so keeps my engine spotless. My uncle has that Ford PU with now over 275,000 miles running strong and clean, dino oil, and MMO from time to time. No problems to report. I bet he gets 300K+ out of it, and it hauls a 25' boat and trailer weighing over 6500 lbs. No sweat.


I can't comment for Trajan as to why he's cleaning an engine, if I had to guess he is a car buff and is looking at PM like many here.

AD
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
Since the tolerances are so much better and engines tighter, I'd stay clear of that 50 grade oil you're pushing and follow mfg specs, using an approved oil.


No point mail ordering anything, pick a good synthetic oil from a reputable company and have at it.


AD


Stay clear of 50 Grade.....Why?

The European engineers are all for heavier oil. That includes 10w-60.

http://www.voltronic-germany.com/Motor-Oil-10W60.htm


You say pick a good oil(in stores)................where?

Trajan did what you say and now look at his engine. Burns oil,needs to be flushed all the time,etc. So,hows that MFG 'approved' oil working out?...............

http://www.motorator.com/uploa...Line_Oil_10W60_3.jpg


Good stores, Walmart, AAP, Auto Zone, back home, East Coast, Auto Barn. That's where I get my oil, not from out of a trunk or a car in an alley way. Or give a CC# to someone w/o a business address and pray I get my oil.

A qt of oil in 6000 miles is no oil burner, ask any good mechanic.

Keeping an engine internals clean is something a lot of car buffs do. My father and uncle call it preventative maint. It spilled over to me. A pint of MMO for a 1000 miles or so keeps my engine spotless. My uncle has that Ford PU with now over 275,000 miles running strong and clean, dino oil, and MMO from time to time. No problems to report. I bet he gets 300K+ out of it, and it hauls a 25' boat and trailer weighing over 6500 lbs. No sweat.


I can't comment for Trajan as to why he's cleaning an engine, if I had to guess he is a car buff and is looking at PM like many here.

AD


If you're into all that old school stuff.........go-for-it! I used to do all that old school stuff too,so I know it works,but it's also work/expense to do it. It also creates a lot of chemical waste you have to deal with,so why bother when you don't need to.
I can't recall ever saying that I "flush" my engine once, to say nothing of "all the time."

As for oil consumption, well, not only is it at acceptable levels, but it was explained above why. But I guess that's too technical for kirk.

Now, I am doing an arx cycle. Not because I need it, because I don't. Or even think I need it.

The reason is very technical. Very difficult to understand for some. well, who am I kidding. Difficult for kirk/inhal. But I'll see if I can dumb it down. Nah..... no need to

Ready, here is my very technical reason for doing an arx clean/rinse.

I................feel...................like it.

Hopefully, not too technical.

And AD is right, A car buff who does PM.

Maybe kirk should read this again?

*******Originally posted by BKL98MK8LSC:
BMW uses low tension piston ring sets on purpose. They provide less parasitic drag on the cylinder walls and superior cylinder lubrication at high RPM high load. Small and large high specific output engines from many brands use this strategy. Not a problem. They are designed this way for A reason. Its not the oils fault they chose this engineering compromise. ********
Last edited by trajan
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
I can't recall ever saying that I "flush" my engine once, to say nothing of "all the time."

As for oil consumption, well, not only is it at acceptable levels, but it was explained above why. But I guess that's too technical for kirk.

Now, I am doing an arx cycle. Not because I need it, because I don't. Or even think I need it.

The reason is very technical. very difficult to understand for some. well, who am I kidding. Difficult for kirk. But I'll see if I can dumb it down. Nah..... no need to

Ready, here is my very technical reason for doing an arx clean/rinse.

I................feel...................like it.

Hopefully, not too technical



---------------------------------------

Here is something not too technical for you trajan, why I use Synlube...........

I.....................feel...........LIKE..........it!!!


Oh,by the way- regarding synlube

IT......................ALSO............WORKS.........REALLY..........REALLY.........WELL!



ONE MORE THING-TRAJAN....

YOUR QUOTE:
Ready, here is my very technical reason for doing an arx clean/rinse.

I................feel...................like it. (INCORRECT)......... YOU NEED TO CLEAN/RINSE WITH THAT 'APPROVED OIL' YOU USE) -BECAUSE IT CREATES VARNISH IN THE ENGINE-AND YOU KNOW IT!!

Hopefully, not too technical
Last edited by captainkirk
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:

Maybe kirk should read this again?

*******Originally posted by BKL98MK8LSC:
BMW uses low tension piston ring sets on purpose. They provide less parasitic drag on the cylinder walls and superior cylinder lubrication at high RPM high load. Small and large high specific output engines from many brands use this strategy. Not a problem. They are designed this way for A reason. Its not the oils fault they chose this engineering compromise. ********




TRAJAN........I've got more technical knowledge/know-how,than you'll ever have.

I already explained the ring pressure issue. Here it is again.


This low ring pressure is not an engineering compromise.......it's an engineering achievement!


All,if not most vehicles are now able to use low ring tension because of modern day engineering techniques that allow for very,very precise bore/piston tolerances that could not be achieved years ago.

Years ago,especially during a rebuild,a very tight install/ring pressure was needed so that the engine could "run in-break in"....and if done correctly, yielded a well broken-in engine,that used little oil,and now had a very good 'fit'. Anyone who raced with a brand new car back in the day would surely scuff/score the cylinder walls/piston-rings/skirts,etc. before a thorough run-in was achieved......causing an oil burner!


Today,the engines are leaving the factory with little break in needed,because the tolerances,and quality control are that much better............especially in a BMW. Yes,this does allow for less friction/drag, better throttle response,less heat,and better fuel economy! BUT NOT OIL BURNING!


Also realize that less engine break-in also equates to less metallic debris in the engine during this critical period,and less overall initial wear.


It would make absolutely no sense to fuss over all the emission/EPA issues/hurdles, only to build a 'sloppy' engine that burns oil,damages the cat,and pollutes the environment....that would be absurd. Also,compression loses must be kept to a minimum,otherwise any and all fuel economy improvements would be lost due to the loss of power from excess blow-by!


If you installed the best motor oil in these German cars,or any car when they are brand new,or close to new.....they will not 'burn',or use oil.

The best motor oil if you're wondering, is not on store shelves anywhere in America. It has to be special ordered! Or, if you live in Europe,you would be able to find really good motor oil unlike on American store shelves!

Also realize that really smart European motorists don't need to fuss over VOA/UOA like some on these boards are doing and spending a small fortune to analyze.. 'garbage motor oil' That never has made any sense to me. You are throwing good money after-bad on that one!


Engine design link.......(six years old)......tolerances are even better now since it was written

http://webcache.googleusercont...=us&client=firefox-a

A newer link for the motor heads.....

http://www.underhoodservice.co...9778/Advances_i.aspx


WELL TRAJAN..............SHOW US YOUR TECHNICAL EVALUATION/EXPERTISE! Big Grin OH,THAT'S RIGHT,YOU HAVE NONE!
Last edited by captainkirk
Miro quoted:
quote:
But really the ISSUE WAS:
Why AMSOIL Clogs filters on so many vehicles ?

Can anyone answer that one ???



I would say the first mistake on Amsoil's part was and/is recommending up to 25k on every one of their filters,especially the Mico-sized foreign car application. Those were clogging up before 10,000 miles in some of the lexus/Toyota models.

The way-undersized filters would have worked if the engines were spotless when the Amsoil was installed.......and only then if Amsoil was formulated not to oxidize/crystallize and then subsequently clog the tiny filters.

There must be an issue with the oil breaking down in these high tech/ultra-low emission engines and not capable of nowhere near a 25k OCI-clogging up the 'tiny' filters into major bypass mode...unless the car 'lives' on the freeway all day long,and runs quality fuel as well,then maybe up-to-25k.

A larger oil filter is always good for many reasons,if nothing more than insurance,but the oil quality is paramount,and the oil filter should compliment the oil,not the other way around.
Last edited by captainkirk
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
quote:
Originally posted by Miro Kefurt:
My Drop to the bucket:

Just like oil will surface to the surface no matter what BP may claim about it, lies and deceptions will eventually surface too.



So synlube like..........


So Trajan like. Where's that engine belonging to you neighbour that sludged-up using Synlube, eh Big Mouth?

Well?
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:

Must be rough, knowing that I'll use quality, proven oil, over that garbage you peddle.


Temper, temper. Another dumber than dirt statement from the great orator, TRAJAN. You use quality, proven oil, do you? Why do you use ARX to clean up that engine of yours if your oil is so wonderful? You should listen more to Capt. Kirk who sucessfully uses a product that would have prevented your engine from becoming an oil burner and from becoming filthy with sludge and varnish! Wake up, man and smell the coffee.
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
You're right. It isn't a problem. It's far from a problem. The dealer doesn't see it as a problem. My mechanic doesn't. People who own and drive these cars, unlike kirk, don't see it as a problem.

No synlube, no worries.


Dirty engine. Burns oil. Using ARX to fix. Blame the original owner. No problem. BMW says so. No problem. Mechanic say so. No problem. What me worry? Alfred E. Newman = Trajan.
6000 miles and a qt of oil is needed, come on guys lets get real. That is not oil burning.

With all the positive press 3 people are giving Synlube, only two of them are using it. One of them owns the company. The other a shill. How come no one else is stepping up to the plate? Probably because most people reading about it realize what it's all about.

AD
fowvay quote...

I used this stuff after reading an article in European Car. At least I think it was European Car magazine back then.... anyhoo...

I put it in my 1986 Jetta Diesel at 121,000 miles and installed a canton mecca remote oil filter at the same time. I changed the filter every 25,000 miles and added a quart of oil at that time.

I sold the car at 486,000 miles after it was rear ended by a Chevy Chevette doing 45mph. It still ran great and delivered a solid 42mpg in the city (redline to redline shifts) and averaged a healthy 52mpg at 70mph.

I did change the oil out every 50,000 miles as per there directions back in the early 90's and allthough extremly black it still was performing very well and there was no sludge build up anywhere.

I thought the company had fallen off the face of the Earth or had gone out of business. That is untill today when I came across a link to it from another website.

I will try it out first in our Ford Focus since it sees the most use. I will report back in 2 years when it had accumalted 50,000 miles and let you know the averages.
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-------------------------------------------

jonny-b-quote

Hi, Gary Allan. I will also take a VOA and send it in together with the UOA. I have been driving 10000 km(6200 miles) now, since I filled my old Nissan with Synlube. All I can say now, is that this seem to be the best oil I have ever used. However, this is based on sounds from the engine being gradually reduced, how the engine idles and how I think it performs,as well as a slight reduction in fuelconsumption. I will do a lot of driving this summer, so I was planning to send in a UOA when I reach some 20K miles.
I also have ordered their gear oil, and already have their oil in the diff. I also ordered their microglass filter, and I will replace the OEM Nissan oil filter with this. I don't think you can go wrong, by using their products, but if anyone can give some info proving otherwise, I would be glad to know. In the meantime, I keep on driving to test it.


And Many,many others like myself and so forth have been using synlube for many years now.........
Last edited by captainkirk
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
6000 miles and a qt of oil is needed, come on guys lets get real. That is not oil burning.

With all the positive press 3 people are giving Synlube, only two of them are using it. One of them owns the company. The other a shill. How come no one else is stepping up to the plate? Probably because most people reading about it realize what it's all about.

AD


Why doesn't inhaliburton step up to the plate???????

Yep. it's far from oil burning. Especially when you consider what BKL pointed out. Which I'll post again since they *still* don't get it:

*****Originally posted by BKL98MK8LSC:
BMW uses low tension piston ring sets on purpose. They provide less parasitic drag on the cylinder walls and superior cylinder lubrication at high RPM high load. Small and large high specific output engines from many brands use this strategy. Not a problem. They are designed this way for A reason. Its not the oils fault they chose this engineering compromise.*****

The problem these three have is that no one, either here or at bitog, is jumping on their bandwagon.

Still a mystery why one of the fans fears to use it. Or why the other two don't go after him.

Only someone who knows nothing about BMWs, or cars in general, would find 1qt/6k a problem.
A few years ago: http://www.pistonslap.com/tsb/010601011A.pdf

The accepted rate of oil consumption for engines used in the vehicles referenced is 0.946
liter (1 qt) in 3200 km (2000 mi). This rate only applies to personal use vehicles, under
warranty, maintained in accordance with the appropriate maintenance schedule, with less
than 58,000 km (36,000 mi), or 80,450 km (50,000 mi) for Cadillac, driven at legal
speeds in an unloaded (for trucks) condition.

Oops, they've been skunked again.

They probably feel the same way about Mazda's rotary engine as well.

A sure fire sign you're burning oil is the cloud of blue smoke. Don't have that.

I should also point out that none of my three fans stuck their beaks in this thread until *after* I chose the oil. Very telling.
Last edited by trajan
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:

Maybe kirk should read this again?

*******Originally posted by BKL98MK8LSC:
BMW uses low tension piston ring sets on purpose. They provide less parasitic drag on the cylinder walls and superior cylinder lubrication at high RPM high load. Small and large high specific output engines from many brands use this strategy. Not a problem. They are designed this way for A reason. Its not the oils fault they chose this engineering compromise. ********



I already explained the ring pressure issue. Here it is again.


This low ring pressure is not an engineering compromise.......it's an engineering achievement!

All engineering is a combination of compromises. It is possible to go to far with any of them. The best choices are a matter of constant debate and tend to become self evident over time through successes ,failures or plain mediocrity. Some companies are better at making these decisions than others. The same goes for oil companies and car companies.
quote:
Originally
jonny-b-quote

Hi, Gary Allan. I will also take a VOA and send it in together with the UOA. I have been driving 10000 km(6200 miles) now, since I filled my old Nissan with Synlube. All I can say now, is that this seem to be the best oil I have ever used. However, this is based on sounds from the engine being gradually reduced, how the engine idles and how I think it performs,as well as a slight reduction in fuelconsumption. I will do a lot of driving this summer, so I was planning to send in a UOA when I reach some 20K miles.
I also have ordered their gear oil, and already have their oil in the diff. I also ordered their microglass filter, and I will replace the OEM Nissan oil filter with this. I don't think you can go wrong, by using their products, but if anyone can give some info proving otherwise, I would be glad to know. In the meantime, I keep on driving to test it.


And Many,many others like myself and so forth have been using synlube for many years now.........


jonny-b has been on other sites pushing different products from time to time, a ceramic additive that could repair the internals of worn out engines comes to mind. He pushed that hot and heavy too. I take anything he says with a grain of salt, as did many others.

Then there is the recent Yogo debate, and how they held value. Some cars become collectable and desireable because they represent GARBAGE, engineering nightmares, horror stories, or stupidity. The Yugo meets all of the above and probably more.

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Last edited by adfd1
Ah yes, ole jonny b. The guy who insulted anyone who dared question synlube. Or any other miracle in a can..... never did that VOA/UOA.

Just like inhaliburton. a guy who not only still defends a swill known as synlube, but is too scared, lacks the courage of his convictions, isn't man enough, to actually use it.

What can you expect from a child who, being that he lacks any ability, can only do things like make up lies. Find that thread you accussed me of inflicting ruin on yet? Oh, that's right, you made it up.
Last edited by trajan
quote:
All engineering is a combination of compromises.



The only thing I see that's compromised is the store bought oil some are using,and then go on to shout....hey, it's MFG APPROVED so it must be the best stuff I can buy 'locally' for my engine!

Believe me,these foreign car MFG'S need to sell cars worldwide,so they have to 'pick' whatever they hope to be the best oil in that particular country(u.s.a)......otherwise they wouldn't sell any cars in that country. What would you do,what do you expect them to do.

If BMW had their druthers,they would spec what oil the engine actually needs the most......however, the oil is typically just not available,so they just- 'pick their poison' so to speak for what the typical American will install in that model of car,and hope for the best.... So far,not so good!

The domestic automakers are basically doing the same thing........being forced to pick the best motor oil when there are not really very good choices....hence the reason for the new dexos standard(dictated by GM,not big-oil) just around the corner. Gm is tired of low quality motor oil choices,ruining their engines.

Many of these BMW-M cars burn almost NO oil,and many burn oil like crazy. Some are getting rebuilds way before 150k........using so-called MFG Approved oil.

I blame the low quality oils being used,for the most part. If the engines are 'compromised' as you say.........then all the more reason to use the best possible lubricant..ignoring the 'useless'-MFG APPROVED GARBAGE oil that is apparently very good at killing these engines early.

I am willing to wager that European cars,using European motor oils-in Europe,don't burn oil,and wear out like their American counterparts. The American oils being installed at the dealerships are ruining those engines early on...........including the domestic cars as well.


AND THEN.........THERE IS ALWAYS PLAN-B

http://search.yahoo.com/search...=sb-top&fr=yfp-t-701


OR..........PLAN-C



http://www.newcar.com/14/yugo/index.html

The incarnated new YUGO...Comming soon to a dealer near you!

http://blogs.consumerreports.o...wheel-fiat-500-.html
Last edited by captainkirk
I think we agree on some points. GM did not go with their own specification because they were happy with API. Being blown off for a period of years makes the general REAL unhappy. What their specific issues are I dont know but certainly it was something. Europe and japan have gone their own way and are not immune to problems. I think the elephant in the room that is causing issues is government regulations. Pressure to reduce waste streams to a minimum got the Europeans to specify long OCI and some got bit. Regulations on VOC emissions here have made crankcase ventilation systems very effective moisture traps. CAFE standards are pushing manufacturers to spec lighter oils than they would otherwise use,even if only slightly. Non of these are deal breakers when all you have to do is change your oil to fix it. Forcing 100000 mile catalytic converter life at the expense of safe reliable engine wear protection and sabotaging older engines with mechanical valve trains is a piss poor use of government power,however well intentioned. The engineering responses to regulation are as varied as can be,some are successful,some not. BMW is not immune to this. The crank case ventilation system on some models can fail in very cold weather and suck all the crankcase oil into the intake manifold and cause engine destruction. Not the oils fault unless you count water trapped in it. When the water freezes the valve fails. These may be the failures your referring to.
quote:
Originally posted by BLK98MK8LSC:

The crank case ventilation system on some models can fail in very cold weather and suck all the crankcase oil into the intake manifold and cause engine destruction. Not the oils fault unless you count water trapped in it. When the water freezes the valve fails. These may be the failures your referring to.


That is a problem in the colder climates. IIRC there is a cold climate version of it. It's insulated IIRC.

FWIW, "normal" PCV valves can have the same thing happen. For instance: http://www.subaruforester.org/...-ltd-heads-up-47434/

Not a problem I have though.
quote:
Originally posted by BLK98MK8LSC:
I wasnt picking on BMW but on the VOC emission regs that dictate sealed up tight crank cases. They trap moisture to the point of build up. Does depend on conditions.


I know, I just didn't see the need to quote the whole post Smile

You may find this of interest:
http://www.bimmerfest.com/foru...wthread.php?t=422965

"To cool the piston crowns directly, nearly all BMW engines are equipped with oil spray jets that moisten the piston crowns with engine oil."

I wasn't aware they had that feature.
Low tension rings for superior cylinder lube. Check.

Oil spray jets for the piston crowns. Check.

Very acceptable oil consumption rates as determined by the people who know what they're doing. Check.

Nobody buying what miro/kirk/inhal sell. Check.

Miro/kirk/inhal displaying their wealth of ignorance on such things. Check and mate.
Oil Consumption is oil consumption, no matter how much or little it is.

Strange though that is seem to have inverse relationship to perceived quality.

Terrible cars like YUGO and HUYNDAI do NOT burn much oil typically 20,000 miles or more to a Quart.

And then really great cars like Cadillac with Nothstar, Porsche, VW, AUDI and of course BMW do consume "what is normal"

That said PORSCHE 911 TURBO wins, it needs 14 quarts to lube engine that only holds 3.2 Liters, as it burns so much oil !

So chill out it is the BEST engine /car combination in the World made today !!!

So next time you go to your Lexus dealer for a recall on broken this or that and stuck this or that, COMPLAIN that it is not up to par as it is NOT burning MORE oil than PORSCHE, and thus it is an inferior vehicle...

The oil consumption proves it !!!