Re Refined Oil - Your thoughts...

Astrixstar,

With depleting oil resources it is imperative that we begin to use re-refined oils. In US I believe, its use is widely being permitted. I am not too sure if a specfication has been laid out for such oils.

It would make sense if virgin oils are partly dosed with "re-refined base oils", rather than 100% re-refined base oils.

Seek inputs and experiences from users in US.

Hussam Adeni

I completely agree with Hussam. It is unfortunate that there is so much resistance to the oil recycling industy. Most people have heard of or had bad experiences with re refined or recycled oil. But the fact is that if the process is carried out correctly then the end product is a high quality oil. Some people suggest that it is of higher quality due to the removal of impurities that aren't removed in the initial refining process.
Perhaps it is time that guidelines and standards are created to accomodate this. With this, at least the end user has some means of gauging whether or not it is suitable for specific applications.

Re-refining is a big help to our environment and earth. Unbelievable quantities of UEO (used engine oils) wind up in landfills, sewers, streams all over the world, polluting the waters, land, harming everything that comes in contact with it.

We must encourage re-refining activity and support them by buying their products. However, you must take care that the re-refiners themselves obey the rules and regulations of EPA and other bodies and re-refine properly. Some re-refiners do more harm than good. There are so many methods of re-refining out there, many of them are obsolete, but, still in use.

One of the best re-refining technologies I have seen at work is used at a ECOLUBE in Spain. It involves propane deasphalting and catalyst treatment to remove depleted additives and impurities from UEOs and then distills them into SN 70, SN 150 and SN 350 base stocks. This is a very environment friendly process and plant with good yields and excellent quality of base stocks. All this takes place at moderate temperatures, unlike many other re-refiners who subject their UEOs to very high temperatures, thereby, cracking and destroying the structure of the base stocks. Furthermore, this process doesn't use any clay treatment, acid, or hydrofinishing. ECOLUBE doesn't produce finished lubricants but instead sells the base stocks to other blenders.

One should be careful when purchasing lubes made from re-refined base stocks, ensuring that the base stocks were properly processed, and also properly treated with additives to make quality lubes. This is important so that you do not ruin your engine or other equipment with substandard oils.

Another re-refining plant I visited recently is ORRCO in Portland, Oregon. The very nice owner Mr. Bill Briggs, uses Thin Film Evaporators to refine the UEOs and then clay treats them if needeed. He gets two cuts from his process and sells the clay-treated base stocks to independents for production of finished lubes. He also sells non-clay treated base stocks to base oil producers as feedstock.

Lube Man

Pretty concise thoughts on otherwise very sensitive issue.

The point is whether the cost of re-refining UEOs to obtain base oils justifies displacement of usage of Base oils from virgin crude by the oil blenders.

Further more, I really am not aware of a processes which can reverse oxidation in the sense that as we all are aware Engine oils subjected to heat, moisture and air get oxidised gradually to generate acids and laquer. Laquer/carbon deposits can perhaps be removed by treatments, but can the oxidation reactions that change the chemistry of the HCs... be reversed to attain comparable levels of a virgin base stock?

Regards

Sandy Deeds

Sandy,

The cost of re-refined base oils as I have seen in some plants in Europe, US and Mid-East is not more than Euro 126 per ton. It may vary from region to region based on various factors, such as, govt. subsidies, collection costs, processes, and so on... However, generally there is definitely a sizeable cost benefit to using re-refined base oils versus virgin base stocks of similar group level. The benefits are considerably higher when the re-refiner is also a blender.

Now, on reversing the oxidation of oils... Yes, oxidation breaks down oils and their additives and I am not a chemistry wizard to answer your excellent question, however, this much is known, that all conventional oils contain naturally occuring substances such as sulphur, sulphur compounds, reactive hydrocarbons and other materials, that cannot be completely removed from the petroleum crude and thus end up in the final product. It is mostly these components (substances) that react with oxygen to produce deposits, varnishes, lacquers and other oxidation by-products, which cause the lubricant to deteriorate.

Of course antioxidants are added to control the oxidation or prevent it and these additives get depleted eventually, too. Anyway, to return to your question, re-refining is not about reversing oxidation or reversing the chemistry of the UEO to what it was before it went into the engine... it is about removing the contaminants, depleted additives, combustion acids and deposits, oxidation by-products, wear metals, and any other impurities that can be extracted successfully using physical or chemical processing. It is about conserving energy and resources.

Just as synthetic oils are resistant to oxidation because of their purity, it is the impurities in conventional base oil lubricants that get oxidised. It is these impurities that form oxiddation by-products and get extracted in re-refining.

Good re-refined base stocks like the ones produced at ECOLUBE in Spain are comparable with Group I base stocks. With further processing they could be converted to group II levels.

I think this is a very importanttopic and needs further deliberations! The problem of re-refining/ useageof UEO is more acute in underdeveloped countried and it adds to more environmental pollutent load than any other thing! Be it by meance of adulterantto good lubricants, whereby dammaging the engine and resulting to air pollution, or by emance of draining to soil and drains without its proper collection whereby polluting the ground water !
But along with that what is more of important is themethod used for its re-refining! If an age old Acid -clay method is used, then we are basically doing more harm to the enviornment than doing any good! The other advanced methods are definitly environment friendly and leads to much better quality of the finished products, but arecapital intensive too!!! Moreoever, without a roburst Used Oil collection mechanism in place under the overall monitoring of the federal environmental agencies , countries like India, is having real problems looming at large! Only good thing to happen is banning of Imports of UEO to India!

Back to the basics,

Refining, series of processes for converting crude oil and its fractions to finished petroleum products. Everything subtracted in the refining process has a purpose and a use somewhere along the chain.

Re-Refining, series of processes for converting drain oil, used oil, waste oil, (just another form of crude oil) and its fractions to finished petroleum products. It is truly a re-refining process that subtracts asphaltics, bunker fuel for ships, up to the lighter gases, to generate power and somewhere in the middle they take cuts out for base oil to be used in the blending of gear oils, hydraulic oils, motor oils, railroad diesel engine oils, R&O oils, etc.

Whether one uses "virgin base oil" or "re-refined base oil" addtives still have to be blended in to meet the ASTM, OEM, API, ILSAC and other manufacturers' performance requirements. How long would one stay in business offering products that under perform?

In the past there have been "recycled" lubricants to which a cloud was formed because of poor blending practices and bad performaces of the past created objections to "re-refined baseoils" of the future.

Oil Can Hairy

Lube Man,

Thanks for the info. Happy to know that ECOLUBE Spain,is delivering user friendly re-refined oil with minimum impact on the environment.

Request you to visit
Filtration and Contamination Control/ Re-refining of used industrial oils

on the Noria message board, where the above topic was briefly discussed.

Hussam Adeni

Tapas,

Banning re-refined oils is not a solution in India. Liqour is banned in Gujarat and the result bootleggers may hay.

It would be better to lay down a specification and only permit products that pass the specs. The subject of re-refined lubes in India was touched briefly, earlier in the forum under filteration.

Hussam Adeni

In the US, irrespective of whatever specs a company says re-refined oil will meet, the product carries a lot of bad vibes. IMHO, the only way it will see significantly increased usage is by government mandate. A reference point would be the use of post-consumer content in plastic products. My 2 cents.

When we talk of re-refined oil, to what extent it has been rerefined and by what method it has been rerefined is important. Iagree with Tapas, that if the method is old clay treatmeant then these oils will not find good use.
In India now government has laid down specifications for used oil.They should meet Shedule 5 and sheduled 6 specn.However, these rerefined oils can not be used for making high performance lubricants such as Turbine oils,hydraulic oils etc.
The cost of rerefined oils play an important role.
Vijay

There should not be a need to drain out the engine oil periodically if some perfect refiner is installed in the bye pass line of the engine,the purifier should be able to remove all types of contaminants , solid, liquid and gases from the oil thoroughly and continuously. There is one such Byepass Purifier , named KLAROL available. It removes solid particles upto 1 micron, removes moisture and unburnt fuel and combustion gases dissolved in the oil. It thus retards the process of acid formation in the oil.It has given excellent results in the Loco Department of Tata Steel, Jamshedpur, India. They have about 60 locomotives, each having 2 Cummins NT 855 engines, lube oil capacity of sump 35 Litres. They have installed Klarol on all the engines and are changing engine oil after 3600 hours (approx 6 months)instead of 300 hours(approx 15 to 30 days) as scheduled.Even after 3600 hours the condition of oil is OK, they are planning to extend the drain out period to 1 year. When they opened some engines after 25,000 hours for major overhauling, crankshaft, camshaft and bearings etc were found to be as good as new. Mr SK Seth or Mr Amal Roy of Tata Steel , Jamshedpur, India may be contacted for confirmation.
The manufacturers claim that if Klarol is installed on an engine, there will be no need to change the oil ever.It means that there will be no need to collect and re-refine the used oil and it is better than discussing the pros and cons of Re refining.
I may be contacted at minimac@rediffmail.com for any further clarification.

Prabhakar,

It's all depend upon Load conditions and Average
time the engine Operates.The application severity of this loco engine must be low.
Machines operating in high load and continuous
operation,drops its viscosity due to VI shear
thinning,Molecular cracking,eventually forms
deposits.Oil change is necessary to prevent
damages to components.

Bye-pass filters with very fine filtration will
remove oil additives that are not discretely
dissolved in base oils.....

Bala.

Bala,
I knew that the information given by me will not be believed by those who just think on conventional lines. The Locos as mentioned are running 22 hours, some of them in Blast Furnace Area where the temperature is always very high.Just one question? Can you run an engine 22 hours daily, whatsoever the load may be, by changing engine oil after every 3600 hours for a life of 25,000 hours without damage to engine.I dont think that it is possible with a high speed engine like Cummins NT-855.
But it has been made possible with the installation of KLarol Oil Purifier installed on 112 engines and all the engines are OK , some of them went for overhauling after 25000 hours; Bearings, camshaft and crankshaft were all found OK.
It is not a csae of Locomotives only, Tata Steel has installed Klarol Oil Purifier on its Dozers, Dumpers, Shovels and Payloaders etc, and on each equipment the drain out period has been extended from 250 hours to more than 1500 hours, and these engines have been running for more than 6 years, daily running not less than 12 hours.
You are talking theoretically and I have given you a practical report, not a freak case of one engine, but a fleet of 112 engines. Seeing is believing, you are thought to be an expert in this field, you must contact the concerned persons of Loco Deptt, Tata Steel, Jamshedpur. Being such a special case against all the established theories, you must visit Tisco before passing any judgement or giving any opinion.
I still say that by installing Klarol Oil Purifier on every diesel engine, we may simply eliminate the need of periodic oil drain -out, then there will be no environmental problem and no need of re -refining

Prabhakar,

Can you post some Analytical results like Viscosity,Molecular additives levels,wear elements of the Engine oil samples of TISCO Equipment? What is the condition of Components
like Turbocharger,What is their Top Overhauling
periods? I believe that Klarol purifier does't
stop the molecular shearing of Engine oils.
At high load conditions,oil molecules gets
squeezed out at Upper end of Corod bearings,
Oil pump,Lifters area resulting in permanent
loss of viscosity.Thermal cracking of oil molecules causes piston land & groove deposits.
Over a period of time deposits grows,imparis
heat transfer,losses hydrodynamic oil property,
eventually leads to bore polishing,seizure.

Don't argue here without scientific documents.

Bala.

quote:

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Originally posted by Prabhakar Agrawal:
Bala,
..... The Locos as mentioned are running 22 hours daily, some of them in Blast Furnace Area where the temperature is always very high.Just one question? Can you run an engine 22 hours daily, whatsoever the load may be, by changing engine oil after every 3600 hours for a life of 25,000 hours without damage to engine.I dont think that it is possible with a high speed engine like Cummins NT-855.
But it has been made possible with the installation of KLarol Oil Purifier installed on 112 engines and all the engines are OK , some of them went for overhauling after 25000 hours; Bearings, camshaft and crankshaft were all found OK.

...I have given you a practical report, not a freak case of one engine, but a fleet of 112 engines. Seeing is believing, you are thought to be an expert in this field, you must contact the concerned persons of Loco Deptt, Tata Steel, Jamshedpur. Being such a special case against all the established theories, you must visit Tisco before passing any judgement or giving any opinion.
I still say that by installing Klarol Oil Purifier on every diesel engine, we may simply eliminate the need of periodic oil drain -out, then there will be no environmental problem and no need of re -refining

---

I think you have not gone through the above statement of mine. There is a practical example for 112 engines involved, after 25000 hours of running they opened the engines for Major overhauling, found the bearings, camshaft , crank shaft, valves etc as good as new, there was no deposit on the top of piston or anywhere else, even compression was not lost, amount of topping never increased,Turbocharger is in a better condition in comparison to those engines without this purifier ,then why should we go for other tests, These engines are now rerunning.Every engine comes for weekly maintenance and they check viscosity, viscosity index, TBN, Flash point , moisture and if found OK, continue the oil.They have a sophisticated in house lab where they test the oil off and on exhaustively. Yes,Lot of things are always happening to oil inside the engine , but only a fraction of oil is burnt or oxidised or goes through molecular shearing ,this worn out portion of oil is converted into contaminants and all the solid, liquid and gaseous contaminants are removed by this purifier every moment. It removes unburnt fuel, moisture and combustion gases also from the oil .
Again , simple one question- Can anybody run a Cummins NT 855 engine with 35 litres oil sump capacity changing the oil after every 3600 hours for a total duration of 25,000 hours without any damage to engine? With Klarol Oil Purifier we have run 112 engines, why should we submit any analysis, anybody who is interested may come forward himselfand see the results with own eyes. Tata Steel is not a small company, anybody may contact Mr SK Seth or Mr Amal Roy of Loco Department there for verification.I again say that it is not a freak case of one engine, 112 engines are running satisfactorily, saving lot of lube oil for Tata Steel and at the same time reducing break downs and maintenance.

quote:

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Originally posted by vijay:
When we talk of re-refined oil, to what extent it has been rerefined and by what method it has been rerefined is important. Iagree with Tapas, that if the method is old clay treatmeant then these oils will not find good use.
In India now government has laid down specifications for used oil.They should meet Shedule 5 and sheduled 6 specn.However, these rerefined oils can not be used for making high performance lubricants such as Turbine oils,hydraulic oils etc.
The cost of rerefined oils play an important role.
Vijay

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Vijay,

Re-refined oils if scientifically processed as per approved process, meets laid down specification, the same can be used for manufacturing industrial oils like hydraulic and engine oils. Re-refined oils are not inferior compared to Virgin base oils, rather it can be superior if properly re-refined due to removal of impurities and improved anti-oxidation properties (Increased saturateslevel).

Oil never wears out, it gets contaminated due to oil degradation and physical contaminants.

Kumar