Rather long but interesting reading
http://members.rennlist.com/oil/Motor%20Oil%20101.htm
Original Post
Read our primer articles on High Mileage Oil, Synthetic Oil and Kinematic Viscosity
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I read this article a couple weeks ago. IIRC the author advocates running thinner grade oil until you meet the criteria of 10 psi (what's that, about .7 bar?) oil pressure per 1000 rpm.
Initially I balked, but further study reveals that my pickup getting 44 psi at 2000 rpm actually meets the 10 psi/1000 criteria because the criteria is a minimum and if I run my truck up to 4000 rpm (pretty much the max it is meant to go) I am still getting about 44 psi.
So apparently it is OK to have higher pressure midrange so long as it does not drop below the min 10psi / 1000 rpm anywhere.
In fact, if it always ran exactly 10/1000 up the rpm scale, something would be wrong. Oil pressure should be a upward arching curve, not a straight line.
Initially I balked, but further study reveals that my pickup getting 44 psi at 2000 rpm actually meets the 10 psi/1000 criteria because the criteria is a minimum and if I run my truck up to 4000 rpm (pretty much the max it is meant to go) I am still getting about 44 psi.
So apparently it is OK to have higher pressure midrange so long as it does not drop below the min 10psi / 1000 rpm anywhere.
In fact, if it always ran exactly 10/1000 up the rpm scale, something would be wrong. Oil pressure should be a upward arching curve, not a straight line.
On start up I assume you hit the pressure relief valve at 44psi, and if so probably would even with a 0W .
With a big capacity engine rather than high rev I would have concerns about dropping viscosity to a 0W20 unless increasing HTHS.
With a big capacity engine rather than high rev I would have concerns about dropping viscosity to a 0W20 unless increasing HTHS.
quote:Cold runs about 54 psi at speed. I think the spring resistance must drop when it gets hot. With 5w30 I was getting 35 psi hot. Probably could get away with a 10w30/10w40 mix.
On start up I assume you hit the pressure relief valve at 44psi, and if so probably would even with a 0W .
quote:Agree. A big capacity engine running 5w20 should have something like Redline with its high HTHS. A small, high winding V engine probably fine with semi-synthetic 5w20.
With a big capacity engine rather than high rev I would have concerns about dropping viscosity to a 0W20 unless increasing HTHS.
quote:
A big capacity engine running 5w20 should have something like Redline with its high HTHS.
Aha. What is a "high HTHS" for a 5W-20 oil?
quote:Redline 5w20 has a listed HTHS of 3.3 cP @ 150C ASTM D4741. That is "high" compared to typical of-the-shelf U.S. 5w20s. In fact, it is comparable to a typical 10w30.
Originally posted by Callisa:quote:
A big capacity engine running 5w20 should have something like Redline with its high HTHS.
Aha. What is a "high HTHS" for a 5W-20 oil?
D-4683 is what I see almost all other oil makers use the arrive at an HT/HS for an oil .
I wonder what the difference is in the parameters of these two tests and if one will show a higher value than the other ?
I wonder what the difference is in the parameters of these two tests and if one will show a higher value than the other ?
Callisa
With a high HTHS you may be able use a lower viscosiity oil and add some bhp.
With a high HTHS you may be able use a lower viscosiity oil and add some bhp.
quote:
With a high HTHS you may be able use a lower viscosiity oil and add some bhp.
Yes. And with HTHS of 2,9 you may gain some fuel economy in addition to that.
Callisa,
I take it that you prefer low weight oil, so whats your view on this and its application for engine types (High rev / big capacity)
On page 19 this Shell Global test refers to a SAE paper but also gives other pertinate info on ring modeling , vi and more to include a 5w-20 oil giving higher top ring oil film thickness than a 15w-40 they tested along with viscosity affecting ring movement
I take it that you prefer low weight oil, so whats your view on this and its application for engine types (High rev / big capacity)
On page 19 this Shell Global test refers to a SAE paper but also gives other pertinate info on ring modeling , vi and more to include a 5w-20 oil giving higher top ring oil film thickness than a 15w-40 they tested along with viscosity affecting ring movement
quote:
I take it that you prefer low weight oil, so whats your view on this and its application for engine types (High rev / big capacity)
Well, I have seen some very good 0W-30 oils in terms of wear performance. I could not find any disadvantages compared to 5W-40 oils.
I saw some strange results with a 0W-20 oil (fully ester based) like high oil consumption, increased piston ring wear. Conclusion: Oil and engine have to "fit" to each other, not every engine should be lubed with such an oil.
Ester based oils do not appear to perform well with road engines and maybe this is why M1 has moved away from esters.
Perhaps an HTHS of 2.6 is all thats needed and the thinner oils actually performs better at start up and aids cooling and reduces heat and maintains therefore maintains viscosity at operating temperature, compared to a 5W40 which may thin.
Any comments on fuel as LPG appears to produce low wear.
Perhaps an HTHS of 2.6 is all thats needed and the thinner oils actually performs better at start up and aids cooling and reduces heat and maintains therefore maintains viscosity at operating temperature, compared to a 5W40 which may thin.
Any comments on fuel as LPG appears to produce low wear.
Has anyone ever compiled a list of automotive/industrial engine oils that contain esters?
A list of oils that contain ester would be interesting. Also would be nice to have the percentage. Could that be found in the MSDS's?
BTW, I understand Valvoline Maxlife initially had about 15% ester, but that after a couple years it was reformulated to instead have about 15% PAO. Would be very interesting to know the reason for the change, but probably had more to do with cost, the PAO being cheaper than ester.
Also, I have heard that a lot of the motor oil additive packages include some ester for solubility, so maybe there is ester in a lot more of the oils than we think, but probably a small percentage I would guess.
BTW, I understand Valvoline Maxlife initially had about 15% ester, but that after a couple years it was reformulated to instead have about 15% PAO. Would be very interesting to know the reason for the change, but probably had more to do with cost, the PAO being cheaper than ester.
Also, I have heard that a lot of the motor oil additive packages include some ester for solubility, so maybe there is ester in a lot more of the oils than we think, but probably a small percentage I would guess.
quote:
Any comments on fuel as LPG appears to produce low wear.
Well, oil is deteoriated from blowby. LPG is a very clean fuel. I have seen results with 30.000 km OCI which looked like 3.000 km.
Maybe we should open a new thread which is wear related. What is best case / worst case concerning wear? I have seen some "believes" that cold start is worst case for wear. This is only partly true.
And LPG is not better than gasoline in terms of wear in my opinion. It's just that LPG drivers are most of the time long distance drivers, which is best case in terms of wear.
What information especially from these "you all" reliable sources could be given about Esters?
Esters pros:
Sticks to metal
Good for turbo engine use
...etc...etc...
Esters cons:
Makes seals swell [just guessing]
...etc...etc...
I look around to find out what PAO is and always see PAO but not definition. so much info to plow through using search engine. I must also do work here today, boss giving me "the eye". HAHA
I found something on "Kung PAO chicken" recipe.
Esters pros:
Sticks to metal
Good for turbo engine use
...etc...etc...
Esters cons:
Makes seals swell [just guessing]
...etc...etc...
I look around to find out what PAO is and always see PAO but not definition. so much info to plow through using search engine. I must also do work here today, boss giving me "the eye". HAHA
I found something on "Kung PAO chicken" recipe.
Dynamo Joe
Ester info
http://www.silkoleneoil.com/techtip8.htm
I posted a bit more detail from John Rowland on an earlier thread
Esyters General
http://www.hatcocorporation.com/pages/about_esters.html
Redline site has a short presentation.
Motul site also has info.
The advantage of esters appears to be film strength and ability to handle heat (jet engines). For an ICE they are really over the top unless racing or using car for track days.
There does not appear to be any evidence that they prevent wear better than a non ester based oil, even on start up, despite claims by Castrol Magnatec/Start Up.
Castor Oil has been used in racing for many years but gums up engine.
Silkolene is appox 20% diester - Motul 20% diester plus blend of ester and PAO and Redline may have highest ester content. Off the shelf Redline could be used in an F1 car and Motul 5W40 used in WRC.
Callisa
The LPG UOA I've seen is with Silkolene and LPG in UK, so perhaps not just high mileage.
A what cause most wear thread would be interesting.
Most oils have some ester as part of additive package but Molakule has stated 10-30% is required for the Silkolene effect and Magnatec may only contain 5%, so maybe just good advertising.
Other oils that may contain that quantity of ester are probably specialist race oils and may include Royal Purple. Another may be Synlube! and M1 may or may not contain ester - lable states uses 3 Synthetics.
Ester info
http://www.silkoleneoil.com/techtip8.htm
I posted a bit more detail from John Rowland on an earlier thread
Esyters General
http://www.hatcocorporation.com/pages/about_esters.html
Redline site has a short presentation.
Motul site also has info.
The advantage of esters appears to be film strength and ability to handle heat (jet engines). For an ICE they are really over the top unless racing or using car for track days.
There does not appear to be any evidence that they prevent wear better than a non ester based oil, even on start up, despite claims by Castrol Magnatec/Start Up.
Castor Oil has been used in racing for many years but gums up engine.
Silkolene is appox 20% diester - Motul 20% diester plus blend of ester and PAO and Redline may have highest ester content. Off the shelf Redline could be used in an F1 car and Motul 5W40 used in WRC.
Callisa
The LPG UOA I've seen is with Silkolene and LPG in UK, so perhaps not just high mileage.
A what cause most wear thread would be interesting.
Most oils have some ester as part of additive package but Molakule has stated 10-30% is required for the Silkolene effect and Magnatec may only contain 5%, so maybe just good advertising.
Other oils that may contain that quantity of ester are probably specialist race oils and may include Royal Purple. Another may be Synlube! and M1 may or may not contain ester - lable states uses 3 Synthetics.
I am thinking for the average automobile or light truck, a little ester may be beneficial in helping to clean deposits from the engine internals.
A little ester may go a long way in cleaning department.
As Auto Rx may be best cleaning ester, what is dose rate.
As Auto Rx may be best cleaning ester, what is dose rate.
Another idea for selecting oil thickness. At the tail end of an oil change interval I drained off 40 oz from a 4.5 quart system on my wife's Aerostar and installed 40 oz of 15w50. This vehicle always had 30 weight. I had been topping with the 15w50 and they some Synpower Oil Treatment. It ran fine on straight 30 weight (10w30) at 10.9 cSt 100c viscosity, fine all the way up to about 13 cSt (a very light 10w40), but currently it is up to 14.3 cSt and it feels like the parking brake is left on lightly when I drive it. Perhaps a sign the oil is too thick? Even the engine sounds different, a little lower toned. Will be going back to about a 12 - 13 cSt (about a 10w30/40) 
.
Here, calculate you resultant viscosity from mixing at this site: Viscosity Blending Calculator
.Here, calculate you resultant viscosity from mixing at this site: Viscosity Blending Calculator
MGBV8 writes regarding esters:"Redline site has a short presentation."
Joe writes:
I click on redline site and on homepage there something that grab my attention right away. A notebox that says..."My truck has always had a problem with running hot, especially in the city - Ross Willis.
I think back and remember something that Mr. Haas say in this interesting article that MGBV8 1st posted at the beginning of this discussion.
http://members.rennlist.com/oil/Motor%20Oil%20101.htm
[u]Motor Oil 105
Part Five.[/u]
Near bottom, A.E. Haas writes:
http://www.redlineoil.com/popup.asp?wid=61
Testimonial:
My truck has always had a problem with running hot, especially in the city and being on gas with just the fans ...stuck in traffic on a hot summers day can be a worry. So when my next service was due, I decided to try some Red Line Engine Oil and WaterWetter. I could not believe the difference it made. The first thing I noticed was the engine ran quieter and the engine idle speed had increased, apparently due to less friction. The running temperature of my truck has reduced so much that it takes an extra five minutes to heat up to running temperature in the mornings.
Ross Willis
Australia
[u]Nit picking i:[/u]
Redline say..."Reducing cooling temps to 30 deg."
Heh, what if Ross was previous using Mobil 1 oil then he go through this exercise of change oil to redline oil and also add water wetter. Knowing what Mr. Haas say in his document about either being in Alaska or Florida the engine run at operating temperature; Or stuck in a traffic jam the temperature increase is no big deal for the oil...
...Would this prove that Ross Willis wasted his money on changing out previous brand oil when he only needed waterwetter?
If engine designed to run because of thermostat at 190, the waterwetter would not be needed unless engine ran around 235 deg. Then waterwetter would be a bandaid to a greater problem?
[u]Nit picking ii:[/u]
Ross Willis say..."The running temperature of my truck has reduced so much that it takes an extra five minutes to heat up to running temperature in the mornings."
Mr. Haas writes:
More confusion occurs because people think in terms of the oil thinning when it gets hot. They think this thinning with heat is the problem with motor oil. It would be more correct to think that oil thickens when it cools to room temperature and THIS is the problem. In fact this is the problem. It is said that 90 percent of engine wear occurs at startup. If we are interested in engine longevity then we should concentrate our attention at reducing engine wear at startup.
30 weight oil:
Temperature ( F )....Thickness
302...........................3
212..........................10
104..........................100
32..........................250 (rough estimate)
Joe writes:
So now Mr. Willis is spending more time running engine with cooler oil, would this not be harder on the engine taking so long to get to operating temperature?
Regareds
N. Itpicker
Joe writes:
I click on redline site and on homepage there something that grab my attention right away. A notebox that says..."My truck has always had a problem with running hot, especially in the city - Ross Willis.
I think back and remember something that Mr. Haas say in this interesting article that MGBV8 1st posted at the beginning of this discussion.
http://members.rennlist.com/oil/Motor%20Oil%20101.htm
[u]Motor Oil 105
Part Five.[/u]
Near bottom, A.E. Haas writes:
quote:
Now let me discuss what people think is a similar situation to racing. That is hot summer traffic jam driving. Your car should be able to handle this. If you have problems then you have a problem with your car, most likely in need of a cooling system overhaul.
When you drive that car down the road mid-winter in upstate New York or mid-summer in Florida the engine and oil temperatures will be around 212 F. But your Florida vacation is suddenly altered by a hurricane. You have to get out of Tampa, but so do a million other people. It is now 95 F and you are in a snarl. Everyone thinks they need a thicker oil for this situation. This is false.
Your engine is not producing much heat at low RPM and low BHP output. The production of heat is relatively slow. It can easily be transmitted to your cooling system. The problem is that your cooling system has trouble getting rid of the heat. The oil and the coolant will slowly rise in temperature. They both rise together. The increase is no big deal for your oil. It goes to 220, then 230 F. The problem is that the cooling system can only handle heat up to 230 F. After that you overheat the cooling system and the car must be shut off. The oil never got that hot, It was just that the water got a little hotter than its system design.
You now see that overheating in traffic is a cooling system problem and not an oil system problem. Do not change to a thicker oil based on your traffic situation.
http://www.redlineoil.com/popup.asp?wid=61
Testimonial:
My truck has always had a problem with running hot, especially in the city and being on gas with just the fans ...stuck in traffic on a hot summers day can be a worry. So when my next service was due, I decided to try some Red Line Engine Oil and WaterWetter. I could not believe the difference it made. The first thing I noticed was the engine ran quieter and the engine idle speed had increased, apparently due to less friction. The running temperature of my truck has reduced so much that it takes an extra five minutes to heat up to running temperature in the mornings.
Ross Willis
Australia
[u]Nit picking i:[/u]
Redline say..."Reducing cooling temps to 30 deg."
Heh, what if Ross was previous using Mobil 1 oil then he go through this exercise of change oil to redline oil and also add water wetter. Knowing what Mr. Haas say in his document about either being in Alaska or Florida the engine run at operating temperature; Or stuck in a traffic jam the temperature increase is no big deal for the oil...
...Would this prove that Ross Willis wasted his money on changing out previous brand oil when he only needed waterwetter?
If engine designed to run because of thermostat at 190, the waterwetter would not be needed unless engine ran around 235 deg. Then waterwetter would be a bandaid to a greater problem?
[u]Nit picking ii:[/u]
Ross Willis say..."The running temperature of my truck has reduced so much that it takes an extra five minutes to heat up to running temperature in the mornings."
Mr. Haas writes:
More confusion occurs because people think in terms of the oil thinning when it gets hot. They think this thinning with heat is the problem with motor oil. It would be more correct to think that oil thickens when it cools to room temperature and THIS is the problem. In fact this is the problem. It is said that 90 percent of engine wear occurs at startup. If we are interested in engine longevity then we should concentrate our attention at reducing engine wear at startup.
30 weight oil:
Temperature ( F )....Thickness
302...........................3
212..........................10
104..........................100
32..........................250 (rough estimate)
Joe writes:
So now Mr. Willis is spending more time running engine with cooler oil, would this not be harder on the engine taking so long to get to operating temperature?
Regareds
N. Itpicker
Not aware that Water Wetter has much effect on normal operating temperature as should be controlled by thermostat. Should help in avoiding hotspots and running less fluids to avoid additional weight and maximising cooling for modified cars as standard cooling system is not designed for additional horses
Synthetics may reduce oil temp by 20% (M1 appears to be an exception) so may delay warm up.
However, Redline has esters and then Zinc aw.
Would be useful to establish how and when wear occurs and the best options to combat this wear.
Synthetics may reduce oil temp by 20% (M1 appears to be an exception) so may delay warm up.
However, Redline has esters and then Zinc aw.
Would be useful to establish how and when wear occurs and the best options to combat this wear.
Hi MGBV8:
I clicked on waterwetter link and watched video.
http://www.redlineoil.com/products_coolant.asp?productID=53&coolantFlash=1
Me being a smartass, I like to think that Waterwetter is basically a liquid "stuck open thermostat" ? hehehe
...Joking
MGBV8 writes:Would be useful to establish how and when wear occurs and the best options to combat this wear.
Joe: I lurk on this forum every day now and read, then use search engine to follow and research clues the regulars here talk about...me wanting to learn more about this, "your comment".
My last car got 555,000 kms before I give it viking funeral, I am hoping that I can get my new car and it's engine to last that long, information from contributors is most interesing and does not really give me too much answers, rather raises more questions...
...which is good.
I clicked on waterwetter link and watched video.
http://www.redlineoil.com/products_coolant.asp?productID=53&coolantFlash=1
Me being a smartass, I like to think that Waterwetter is basically a liquid "stuck open thermostat" ? hehehe
...Joking
MGBV8 writes:Would be useful to establish how and when wear occurs and the best options to combat this wear.
Joe: I lurk on this forum every day now and read, then use search engine to follow and research clues the regulars here talk about...me wanting to learn more about this, "your comment".
My last car got 555,000 kms before I give it viking funeral, I am hoping that I can get my new car and it's engine to last that long, information from contributors is most interesing and does not really give me too much answers, rather raises more questions...
...which is good.
Joe,
Did not realise video for Water Wetter but temps above normal road car and thermostats not normally used on race cars.
The old version
http://www.vtr.org/maintain/lubricants-redline.html#coolants
Evans is another option
http://www.evanscooling.com/index2.html
Did not realise video for Water Wetter but temps above normal road car and thermostats not normally used on race cars.
The old version
http://www.vtr.org/maintain/lubricants-redline.html#coolants
Evans is another option
http://www.evanscooling.com/index2.html
quote:
Originally posted by MGBV8:
Would be useful to establish how and when wear occurs and the best options to combat this wear.
Kinda easy , kinda not but an oil that pumps quickly , does not suffer temp viscosity shear while in severe service " WOT " with newer additives that plate on the metal surfaces along with polar base oils and sweet smelling anti-corrosion adds is a start .
Hey , thats Silkolene with boron and oils similar to it correct ?
Even true synthetics using vii's can give better wear protection in a variety of engines and conditions . Thats why vii's are still used in most synthetics for daily driven passenger cars .
