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quote:
Originally posted by scotchnsoda:
I quoted Charlene Blake's post, above, and now would like to comment on it and others by the same author in this forum:

First question needing to be addressed is "Why is Toyota being singled out and badmouthed over any other carmaker?"
Are there no other auto manufacturers in this world?
Is Toyota the only auto manufacturer guilty of the sins alleged?
Why (and how) is Toyota any different than any of the the others? (clipped rest...)


Toyota and Lexus are "being singled out" because THEY have a MAJOR engine oil sludge problem that has NOT been properly resolved! THESE OWNERS are not interested in what other automakers are doing as they don't own these makes.

Yes, there are other automakers. What do THEY have to do with this TOYOTA and LEXUS ENGINE OIL SLUDGE PROBLEM? How will the problems in the other makes help THEM?

Let's remember that it has been TOYOTA telling TV audiences (and now online audiences) that its vehicles are above the rest, correct? Why are we now going to surmise that Toyota vehicles are "like the rest?" Toyota has made claims about the quality of its vehicles; it has not backed up these claims for the affected Toyota and Lexus sludge victims.

The distracting away from the REAL ISSUE has been going on for YEARS. If one thing is quite clear, it is that Toyota never planned to let its valued vehicle owners know the TRUTH about how engine oil sludge develops in its engines. It wishes to lay the blame with either the owners or the oil or the maintenance facility.

NOTHING has changed since the CSP was implemented by Toyota itself or since the Toyota and Lexus owners brought and settled the class action lawsuit. Toyota sludge is alive and well!

Charlene Blake
cblake@erols.com
charlene.blake@cox.net
Toyota Owners Unite for Resolution: Engine Oil Sludge
http://www.petitiononline.com/TMC2003/petition.html
quote:
Originally posted by Steve L:
The problem here is simple, and Toyota has identified it. It is simply owners who do not use good oils and go too long between changes.

Sludge is ONLY formed when using PETROLEUM oils. At high heat, petroleum oil forms sludge.

Solution? Use ONLY a PREMIUM 100% synthetic Oil. No more sludge.

As far as the other ideas suggested like changing to a cooler thermostat, etc. DON'T DO IT!! That engine and computer is designed to run at a certain temperature. And, putting in a cooler thermostat can actually cause your engine to run hotter, just like having no thermostat.

A thermostat is designed to keep the coolant in the radiator for a certain period of time. Then at the desired temp it opens and the coolant flows. Opening too soon due to a lower temperature can cause the coolant to flow out too quickly and not have the time in front of the airflow needed to cool.

Every engine is designed to run at a specific temperature.


Steve:

Paragraphs #1, #2, and #3 are totally incorrect!

For Ottobooster, Silverfox, and others, please cite the evidence that confirms these statements. The TRUTH must be told, not covered up!

Charlene Blake
cblake@erols.com
charleneblake@cox.net
Toyota Owners Unite for Resolution: Engine Oil Sludge
http://www.petitiononline.com/TMC2003/petition.html
Scotchnsoda, maybe you have had a few two many?

I am not a "prolific spammer" by any stretch. I am a VERY involved auto consumer advocate and have been for over a decade now. I think the auto consumer should receive JUSTICE when applicable. I don't mind speaking out about that. Nothing could be more true than in the Toyota and Lexus engine oil sludge matter.

I see that you, Ottobooster, and Steve came here expressly to respond to my postings...out of the blue? Interesting...

I am happy to continue the dialogue about Toyota and Lexus engine oil sludge and the horrible consequences of the same for the owners of these vehicles.

I am not going to be distracted about the oil or maintenance issues because the are NOT the most important factor in this case. The ENGINE is the most important factor and I have yet to see Toyota provide the owners with PROOF that this engine treats motor oil well! Indeed, I have plenty of proof to the contrary though, beginning with my own engine oil analyses.

Alas, no one at Toyota will recognize what these sludge-affected Toyota and Lexus engines do to the innocent oil or the innocent vehicle owner!

Charlene Blake
cblake@erols.com
charleneblake@cox.net

Toyota Owners Unite for Resolution: Engine Oil Sludge
http://www.petitiononline.com/TMC2003/petition.html
quote:
Originally posted by silverfox:
(snipped first part) Next, she infers there are "Many low mileage Toyotas that were sludged"!!
Another outragious embellishment--not quite a lie but surely an irresponsible distortion of fact. (A lie, but by another definition perhaps??)
The only low mileage sludged engines came about as a result of neglected oil changes--and that's a documented fact!!(last part snipped)


Silverfox, please cite how you know that every low mileage sludged engine came about as a result of neglected oil changes! Have you personally noted all of them at Toyota? Do you work for Toyota or have privilege to see such documentation? Interesting that you make a global claim and yet you are not affiliated with Toyota at all! Wow!

Here is a FACT for you:

Toyota is selectively documenting just what it wants to! Do you suppose for a minute that Toyota has PROPERLY DOCUMENTED the occurrence of Toyota engine oil sludge in the wake of proper maintenance? No! It has gone to great lengths to avoid doing so.

You and Toyota know full well what kind of "selective documentation" is going on there! Toyota wants to have it down on paper that this condition is just caused by improper maintenance. This is simply NOT the case. You now it; Toyota knows it. Remember, I've spoken to Toyota owners over the course of seven years now. That's right...I stumbled on Toyota engine oil sludge back in late 2000 when researching information about BRAKE PROBLEMS (and susequently brake failure) in the Toyota Sienna minivan.

If you want to PROPERLY DEBATE this matter, please come out of the shadows to OPENLY discuss this matter. I'm happy to participate when you do. I do not resort to your kind of attack-posting, though. Be prepared to be civil in your dialogue; leave your emotion out of it.

Have you noted the new entries in my petition? The 2003 models and beyond are showing up there now. Other models (not included in the CSP) are showing up, too. Toyota has some explaining to do. Oh...let me guess...it is *only owners of CERTAIN MODELS* that do not properly maintain their vehicles????

Charlene Blake
cblake@erols.com
Toyota Owners Unite for Resolution: Engine Oil Sludge
http://www.petitiononline.com/TMC2003/petition.html
Silverfox,
I suggest that you speak with Bruce C. Ertmann at Toyota. He is the one that promised to send out the 3.3 million Toyota/Lexus owner letters to those affected in the engine oil sludge case.

Sure, we know that on the first round of letters he stopped them from being sent out. The first letter was a very customer-demeaning letter that shamed the owners of these iron-clad vehicles. Then, when the second round of letters began, I learned that many Toyota owners still never got their letter! Imagine that...evidence of a problem...and no notification from Toyota! I guess now you understand why these owners all signed on to a class action lawsuit.

There are 3.3 million Toyota and Lexus vehicles included in the sludge campaign initiated by Toyota.

Unfortunately, that is NOT the true number because other models and model years are affected. Toyota has yet to acknowledge this fact.

Charlene Blake
cblake@erols.com
Toyota Owners Unite for Resolution: Engine Oil Sludge
http://www.petitiononline.com/TMC2003/petition.html
RESPONSE TO MORE LIES--(AND SOME HASTY BACKPEDALLING??)--BY CHARLENE BLAKE.......


Charlene said:--"Millions of Toyota and Lexus owners are affected by the premature demise of their engines due to engine sludge!!"

Where are the "affected millions" Charlene??

You know, the millions of owners you "implied" whose engines "demised?"

Or are you now changing the story to try and deflect your lie by suggesting these "millions" of owners got a letter from Toyota and that somehow "affected" them and caused their engine to "demise?"

Truth be told, the only one I know of now who is "affected" is yourself--although I'm not sure with what---(perhaps a genetic predisposition)---and I know for sure there's no cure.
Sadly, when your lies become that compulsive, I don't think there's much hope for any change in the condition. Bruce Ertmann would probably agree!!

Your feeble backpedal is a day late and a dollar short!!

You just plain lied--and got caught!



Silverfox,
I suggest that you speak with Bruce C. Ertmann at Toyota. He is the one that promised to send out the 3.3 million Toyota/Lexus owner letters to those affected in the engine oil sludge case.

Sure, we know that on the first round of letters he stopped them from being sent out. The first letter was a very customer-demeaning letter that shamed the owners of these iron-clad vehicles. Then, when the second round of letters began, I learned that many Toyota owners still never got their letter! Imagine that...evidence of a problem...and no notification from Toyota! I guess now you understand why these owners all signed on to a class action lawsuit.

There are 3.3 million Toyota and Lexus vehicles included in the sludge campaign initiated by Toyota.

Unfortunately, that is NOT the true number because other models and model years are affected. Toyota has yet to acknowledge this fact.

Charlene Blake
cblake@erols.com
Toyota Owners Unite for Resolution: Engine Oil Sludge
http://www.petitiononline.com/TMC2003/petition.html[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Originally posted by silverfox:
RESPONSE TO MORE LIES--(AND SOME HASTY BACKPEDALLING??)--BY CHARLENE BLAKE.......


Charlene said:--"Millions of Toyota and Lexus owners are affected by the premature demise of their engines due to engine sludge!!"

Where are the "affected millions" Charlene??

You know, the millions of owners you "implied" whose engines "demised?"

Or are you now changing the story to try and deflect your lie by suggesting these "millions" of owners got a letter from Toyota and that somehow "affected" them and caused their engine to "demise?"

Truth be told, the only one I know of now who is "affected" is yourself--although I'm not sure with what---(perhaps a genetic predisposition)---and I know for sure there's no cure.
Sadly, when your lies become that compulsive, I don't think there's much hope for any change in the condition. Bruce Ertmann would probably agree!!

Your feeble backpedal is a day late and a dollar short!!

You just plain lied--and got caught!



PS.

Next lie;....Charlene then adds this..." I
guess now you understand why these owners all signed on to a class action lawsuit."



So Charlene... are you now saying those "millions" of owners ALL signed on to a class action law suit???"

Sheesh---It gets better by the hour here!!
So THAT's where the "millions" of owners went.
I viewed that "petition" and naturally Charlene's name is the first one on it.

In the narraratives of each post many people said nothing of sludge! They complain of "check engine lights" and rough idle, etc.

And, many of these people bought the car used but claim proper maintenence.

AND, the best part is, NOT ONE specified the use of 100% premium synthetic oil since day one!

The point Charlene STILL cannot comprehend, is that is PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE to get sludge when using 100% premium synthetic oil. Charlene, do you know what IMPOSSIBLE means?

Many of those people on that petition who have had engine failure were those who bought the cheap oil at the cheap oil change place. And, many knew of a problem and drove the car anyway.

I stand firm that sludge is an OIL problem, and NOT an engine problem. Sludge comes primarily from cheap PETROLEUM oil, and lack of proper maintenence.

I have an extensive mechanical background. I have built and raced performance cars as well. I have seen, first hand, the difference between using petroleum oils and synthetics. No comparison.

Cheap customers have sludge because cheap customers buy cheap oil. This is reality.
RESPONSE TO STEVE L.

Thanks for your common sense info.
Your advice for synthetic oil is a big part of a myriad of issues re sludge development.
I found this site out of curiosity because I have a Toyota product (which, like most owners,I'm quite happy with) and was just surfing.
When "paparazzi wannabe" Charlene Blake jumped in with that boatload of hype--mostly smoke and mirrors BTW--I decided to expose what was essentially a pile of lies and misleading inference.
I also did a google search on this person and found thousands of hits on literally every auto related site on the net!
It seems we're dealing with a person who, for Lord knows what reasons, has made a career out of bashing Toyota!
All of her efforts have a common denominator---mostly alarmist hype with little substance and absolutely no authenticity.
I also looked at her much touted "petition". What a joke that is--it's been active (if you consider active as barely alive!)for over 5 years and has accumulated an underwhelming number of around 2000 signatures!
I also noted a great many blank spaces throughout the thing--no signature at all yet counted as one!
That petition is mostly futility however, because it appears there's no way to verify any signatures as legitimate, and because there are no checks and balances to determine legitimacy--apparently a single person can sign as many times as desired!
If Blake has a legitimate beef with Toyota, I would respect that if she was the least bit honest in her condemnations, but she chooses to use cheap rhetoric and shoddy political hype in her obssession over that beef.
But she isn't being honest, and I'll challenge her every time she opens up with another one of her ill gotten manifestos---on principle!!
quote:
MILLIONS of Toyota and Lexus vehicle owners are affected by the premature demise of their engines due to ENGINE OIL SLUDGE.

Very dramatic overstatement.
quote:
that is PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE to get sludge when using 100% premium synthetic oil.

Not true. PAO and esters will degrade, just at a much slower rate. The AO and dispersant additives in the oil are another important factor. Expensive oils (syn) will tend to have better/more AO/ dispersant than cheap dino oil.
The degredation can be easily seen on the oxidation and nitration values in a UOA.
Tempest,

That was the uneducated response I was waiting for. You must be Charlene Blake's husband, or mechanic.

You obviously DID NOT read EXACTLY what I wrote. I will spell it out for you one more time.

First, sludge is a PETROLEUM by-product. Therfore, if you use a TRUE synthetic, you absolutely CANNOT get sludge.

Notice all of my posts clearly specified "100% Premium synthetic oil". This would be a GROUP 4 oil which uses a CHEMICALLY ENGINEERED synthetic base stock for its base oil. This oil does NOT contain ANYTHING petroleum. NOTHING.

Unlike the GROUP 3 [wannabe] synthetic oils that use mineral oil for a base stock. This is your low end "synthetic" and "synthetic blend" oil like the stuff you buy with the Wal-mart brand or other store brand, etc. This is NOT a TRUE synthetic. This is the oil you are speaking about and is NOT the oil I was speaking about. This is NOT a "100% Premium synthetic oil".

I hope this clears up your confusion.

Steve


>>

-----Original Message-----
From: "forums.noria.com"
Sent: Dec 3, 2007 2:32 PM
To: Steve L
Subject: New Reply by Tempest - Re: "Toyota Engine Oil Sludge/Failure"


quote:
MILLIONS of Toyota and Lexus vehicle owners are affected by the premature demise of their engines due to ENGINE OIL SLUDGE.


Very dramatic overstatement.

quote:
that is PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE to get sludge when using 100% premium synthetic oil.

Not true. PAO and esters will degrade, just at a much slower rate. The AO and dispersant additives in the oil are another important factor. Expensive oils (syn) will tend to have better/more AO/ dispersant than cheap dino oil.
The degredation can be easily seen on the oxidation and nitration values in a UOA. You can view the message here https://forums.noria.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&m=305601547&f=616604995--> A new post from forums.noria.com > Message Boards > Car and Truck Lubrication!

Author Topic: Toyota Engine Oil Sludge/Failure
Tempest
Posted Mon December 03 2007 01:27 PM
quote:
MILLIONS of Toyota and Lexus vehicle owners are affected by the premature demise of their engines due to ENGINE OIL SLUDGE.


Very dramatic overstatement.

quote:
that is PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE to get sludge when using 100% premium synthetic oil.

Not true. PAO and esters will degrade, just at a much slower rate. The AO and dispersant additives in the oil are another important factor. Expensive oils (syn) will tend to have better/more AO/ dispersant than cheap dino oil.
The degredation can be easily seen on the oxidation and nitration values in a UOA.
Steve L,

Would you like to explain the oxidation and nitration of PAO/ester oils like Amsoil and Redline if sludge is impossible? How about oxidative thickening?

quote:
You must be Charlene Blake's husband, or mechanic.

You're funny.
quote:
Unlike older generation Group III stocks, which can have more than five percent aromatics, modern Group III stocks also undergo subsequent severe hydrofinishing after hydrocracking and hydroisomerization. Consequently, they have exceptional purity with aromatics levels of much less than one percent, resulting in high thermal and oxidative stability. On the other hand, PAO stability depends largely on residual olefin content, which can be present at significant levels - up to five percent. Even though PAOs have generally excellent oxidation stability, in many applications such as engine oils or high-temperature compressor oils, their performance is matched by modern, severely processed Group III base oils.

http://www.machinerylubrication.com/article_detail.asp?articleid=533
quote:
Oxidative, thermal and hydrolytic degradation will change the base oil's chemical and physical properties, which then alters the lubricant's performance properties.
One of the most common forms of base oil degradation is oxidation. It occurs when oxygen reacts with the lubricant's base oil, which is typically a hydrocarbon. When the oil becomes oxidized, some hydrocarbon molecules are transformed into acid and sludge,

http://www.machinerylubrication.com/article_printer_fri...y.asp?articleid=1010
Does PAO not contain Hydrocarbons?
Last edited by tempest
Hey guys---As much as your input as to some of the many possible sludge causes is greatly appreciated, an important issue here IMO is a challenge to Charlene Blake for the "dramatic overstatements" (as one of you put it so succinctly!)she makes here in her long standing campaign of misinformation re Toyota.

Her as yet unrepentent "lie" re "millions of 'demised' sludged engines" is so off the wall that it goes far beyond ludicrous.
It's agreed she was caught in another (of many) overstated accusations, so that in and of itself speaks to her habitual untruthfulness.

She then attempts to deflect from her lie by offering a Class Action Law Suit as support--but lies again when she implies (note the second syllable!) the Suit was signed by those "millions" of owners.
More characteristic untruthfulness---BTW, in this case she conveniently omits several facts re that Law Suit: (1) It was in Louisiana, and involved only one hundred "class interests"--people who were represented in the action; (2) Judgement in the Suit was no different than the SPA Toyota offered owners years ago; (3) There was no mechanical or design flaw identified--in fact the suit placed no blame whatsoever on either party; and (4) Louisiana is by far the most prolific Tort Litigation site in the country--even the National Law Society has admitted the situation there is tantamount to legalized extortion!!

So I guess what I'm trying to say here is to ask not to add more controversy to the issue than it deserves--and if there's something to take issue over, focus first on people like Blake who take malicious potshots at others, and continually misuse these forums with their "dramatic overstatements" !!

Her credo seems to be "It's not whether you win or lose, it's who you can find to blame".
So "back yard mechanic" for one, agrees with Charlene Blake?
The "for one" part is significant--there aren't many who do!
That must mean "back yard mechanic" subscribes to dramatic overstatements, half truths, lying when everything else fails, and always blaming others for one's misfortunes! (Small wonder she gets bashed--if her remarks the slightest bit honest the sludge issue would be more credible!)
That said, "back yard mechanic's" support for what's wrong with Blake's manipulative tactics and the accomanying story seem right out of Blake's playbook!!
Coincidence perhaps??
RESPONSE TO CHARLENE BLAKE:

Yet gain, with trademark bluff and bluster laced with inference--coupled with a few subtle lies to bolster the inference--Charlene Blake, you're out in left field once more--COMPLETELY WRONG!!

I have never said anything about sludge being a hoax, nor am I an incarnation of someone else who may have said it. (Is this inference another form of your 'fire for effect' lies??)

On the contrary, I have already stated that engine sludge is a reality--many times.

Unlike you, however, I hold to the truth.

Like a multitude of knowledgeable and responsible individuals--many whom you have arrogantly dismissed and marginalized in similar fashion in your remarks to me--I KNOW engine sludge can occur for a multitude of reasons.

I also KNOW that sludge is (thankfully) a fairly rare occurence, and likely won't happen at all if certain fundamental tenets are adhered to.
These tenets involve modest attention to what is going on in one's engine, with a similarly modest degree of personal responsibility toward ensuring that attention is given.

I read through your comments in this forum--and to my amazement found them copied into an extraordinary number of other sites--hundreds in fact--and I decided to address what is essentially compendium of manipulative spin, plus more than a few serious untruths.

If, on the other hand, your expressed angst against Toyota hadn't been so blatantly dishonest, I wouldn't have done so.
If you aspire to genuine consumer advocacy you would be wise to stick to the truth.
Spin and outright dishonesty don't help any cause--ask your President about WMD in Iraq--you and Mr. Bush have much in common it seems.

You come across very clearly as one who has a compulsive personal vendetta and is willing to use whatever it takes--including outright lies--to convince others of the rightiousness of your case.

And you evidently have no conscience whatsoever in saying the things you say!

Either that or your objective is sparked by some form of monetary gain to dissuade as many people as possible from buying a Toyota product.


I came upon this site as a Toyota owner looking for info on buying another Toyota--which I intend to do in spite of your fatuous comments and illusions about doom and gloom, and those who challenge your outragious lies.

One more thing.
Insofar as anecdotal stories such as those by of "back yard mechanic", I take them for what they are--anecdotal, unverified, anonymous, unproven, and coupled with a follow on to your rhetoric, probably false!!
to Charlene, thanks for your response

To silverfox
The only person spreading lies and inuendos on this site seems to be you. Your only rebuttal to Charlene's claims and myself seems to be ad hominum arguments which carry no weight. I merely relay a personal experience which supports Charlene's claims and you get your panties in a bunch. Why is that anyway? You own Toyota stock?

Just for your own edification Toyota has put out several bulletins with regards to engines prone to sludge, thus far thay admit to 2 engines in particular. Maybe you should call them and tell them they are lying!

In addition, Amsoil also has a list of cars prone to sludge, and yes Toyota is on their list as well.Maybe they are lying to!

You can go to bob is the oil guy's website they have numerous discussion on the toyota sludge problem, guess they are lying too!

How amazing, you seem to be the only one smart enough to figure out everyone else is lying! And we we have your say so as proof!I guess everyone should come to you first and see if the problems we are having are real or if we are all just hallucinating. Thanks for clearing that up.
Silverfox, I beg to differ. Backyard mechanic's posting had no spin whatsoever. He stated the facts of the matter.

There are almost 2400 signatories on my online Toyota engine oil sludge petition now. Remember...Toyota claimed that there were only 3,200 sludge victims from the beginning. How realistic is that number considering the fact that the equivalent of 75% of that number of owners has now gone online to register DISSATISFACTION with Toyota?

Logical reasoning, Silverfox...its all there. Illogical reasoning is using name-calling (no, libel!) as a defense. Do you suppose you are helping Toyota make amends to the vehicle owners? I represent over 2,000 of these owners by virtue of my petition alone. Will you now spew names at them, too? More importantly, will you continue to minimize the effect of this serious engine problem?

Charlene Blake
cblake@erols.com
Toyota Owners Unite for Resolution: Engine Oil Sludge
http://www.petitiononline.com/TMC2003/petition.html

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