Which of these oils is better?

@TallPaul
Better in terms of what? I guess product number 3 is cheapest, is that true?

I was specifically looking for your input, but hoping to hear something more like, "the CAS # on oil X indicates a better quality base oil" or "Oil Y is much more robust than ..." Hmmm, maybe there is not a significant difference. But I think you would favor A and B for their releases. All run about the same price, but sales generally tend to see better pricing on C. I can tell you what they are, but seriously am hoping to get your opinion on which is the better oil for general use in an older vehicle. It certainly seems to me that A is better than B, because of the higher proportion of hydrotreated base oil, for example, but the PAO content in C is interesting, but perhaps not enough to make it better than A.

Well, in general you are right that I would tend to say that OIl A and B seemto be better.

I personally would rather go to a 5W-40 then to a 10W-X or 15W-X. (Fuel Economy in the winter time)

The seperation of the influence of the base oil concerning performance is really difficult. There is no engine test available (at least I don't know one) which could seperate a good Group II+ oil from a PAO. Don't tell me Synlube or Mobil 1 is the solution. That's simply good marketing.

I can't tell you which is the best oil from those without additional data simply by looking at the base oils.

Any fresh oil TBN numbers available?

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Originally posted by Callisa:
Well, in general you are right that I would tend to say that OIl A and B _seem_ to be better.

I personally would rather go to a 5W-40 then to a 10W-X or 15W-X. (Fuel Economy in the winter time)

The seperation of the influence of the base oil concerning performance is really difficult. There is no engine test available (at least I don't know one) which could seperate a good Group II+ oil from a PAO. Don't tell me Synlube or Mobil 1 is the solution. That's simply good marketing.

I can't tell you which is the best oil from those without additional data simply by looking at the base oils.

Any fresh oil TBN numbers available?

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Well, in general you are right that I would tend to say that OIl A and B seem to be better.

I personally would rather go to a 5W-40 then to a 10W-X or 15W-X. (Fuel Economy in the winter time)

The seperation of the influence of the base oil concerning performance is really difficult. There is no engine test available (at least I don't know one) which could seperate a good Group II+ oil from a PAO. Don't tell me Synlube or Mobil 1 is the solution. That's simply good marketing.

I can't tell you which is the best oil from those without additional data simply by looking at the base oils.

Any fresh oil TBN numbers available?[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

Thanks Callisa. TBN on the company data sheets is 8 for each of these three. I will see if any VOA's are listed on the Oil Guy site with TBN. I agree 5w40 would be great winter oil, but that is synthetic and $4 or more a quart. I would not trust a dino or blend 5w40, nor do I expect such is even produced.

TallPaul,

To hand

Mineral Paraffininc Base Oil - 64742-54-7; VI of +94 to 120, any group.

Mineral Naphthenic Base Oil - 64741-96-4; VI of -15, any group.

Mineral Aromatic Base Oil - 64742-03-7; VI of -185, any group.

Hydrotreated paraffininc, heavy - 64742-52-5
Hydrotreated paraffinic, light - 64742-53-6

PAO's: 68649-12-7, 68037-01-4, 163149-29-9, 151006-63-2, 151006-62-1, 151006-60-9. VII's of +155 or greater.

Diester - 28472-97-1; VII's average +170.

VII Copolymers - 127883-08-3


Additives:
ZDDP Type Adds: 68649-42-3, XXXXX-46-6.

Calcium Sulfonates: 61789-86-4

Moly Dithiophosphate - 68958-92-7 or 68958-92-9

Moly Disulfide Powders - 1317-33-5


M1 Supersyn Antiwear Technology
This is a Polyol TME

Polyol esters have lower coefficients of friction than either diesters or PAO's.

By adding a polyol ester at least 5-10% to a PAO or mineral oil reduces base oil friction remarkably. So esters are natural Friction Modifiers.

They are also polar and M1 uses Moly.

Shell and Castrol use Group III but the more refined version with nearly same performace but at reduced cost.

Choice depends on what car and use.

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Originally posted by MGBV8:
By adding a polyol ester at least 5-10% to a PAO or mineral oil reduces base oil friction remarkably.

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Hi MGBV8. Nice to see you over here at Noria. I like this forum as it is more global in participation. Also, no company sponsors so sponsor oils are not pushed, or should I say there is not a set of sponsors that you should not criticize too much.

Anyway, I recall MolaKule saying something about the firction mod effect of esters. I am more interested in the start up protection and am thinking as little as 5 percent probably gives a significant start up protection. But I wonder if a lower precentage would do.


Callisa: So how does one intelligently choose an oil? Seems me as the novice must go with a company that seems trustworthy. I will stick with Valvoline for now. The A & B are Valvoline Durablend; the C is Valvoline Maxlife.

Thanks

TallPaul,

I'm very lucky in that the following is a MG Owner and provides oil advice

http://www.noria.com/service/cv/Martin%20WilliamsonCV.asp

and provided the advice re mixing!

I've tried Castrol re esters but only confirmed RS has esters could be just 3% for say additive carrier but if GIII would this be necessary?

Looks like you have an excellent advisor, MGBV8. I would be interested in the mixing, if you can release that info.

What is RS?

@MGBV8
The Shell XHVI Group III is rather expensive, compared to Group III oils from other Companies. I don't know the source of Castrol, but they buy their base oil for sure somewhere elese and don't produce it themselves.

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I agree 5w40 would be great winter oil, but that is synthetic and $4 or more a quart.

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My personal hardwarestore oil is rather cheap, a 5W-40 and pour Group III. Group I is included to dilute the additives into the oil.

Look at the total perormance of an oil, not the base oil.

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Callisa: So how does one intelligently choose an oil? Seems me as the novice must go with a company that seems trustworthy.

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Look what your Car manufacturer recommends and stay with oil quality. About 90 % of all vehicles in Germany which don't have long oil drain intervals, are capable of using ACEA A3/B4 oils. That's a reasonable and affordable choice for average users.

TallPaul

Advice already provided on BITOG

Castrol RS is Fully Synthetic Motorsport Oil

Callisa,

If you are looking for ester content this should improve start up, but information not provided by Oil companies only hype from Magnatec.

A good data sheet gives you Pour point, pumping and crancing viscosity according SAE J300 Spec.

The Infuence during cold start is more related to pour point depressant and type of VI's used in Ester free oils.

I am personally not looking for Esters, I have mixed feelings with them, but not enough data to prove this.

Callisa

I'm looking for esters as they are are polarized and the oil is attracted to bare surfaces and is trying to spread to wherever there isn't any oil.That is one of the key advantages to an ester based synthetic. Once you put this type of product in you never start metal to metal, even after a year there should be a one, one millionth inch of film. Even if the car has been in storage. This is completely untrue of petroleum oil regardless of who makes it. Petroleum will come off just from it's own weight in time.

This to me seams a good idea apart from their performance above PAO.

MGBV8: Can you PM (at BITOG) the link to the appropriate thread to see the Noria contact's advice?


Callisa: As MGBV8 is looking for the special cling protection of esters, so am I. He could go straight Redline, but that is very expensive. I have contacted the Redline technical person and they have told me that I should not expect any additive clash by mixing half a quart to a quart of Redline oil into my crankcase. This would give me the "ester edge" that Castrol claims to offer in their new "Start Up" (presumably Magnatec for the USA), but will not release the amount of ester.

As you say, cold properties are important. I believe MRV is the best indicator, followed by CCS, and lastly pour point. But pour point is the only one useful to compare oils across different "w" numbers, since CCS and MRV are tested at different temperatures per different "w" numbers. Or do you know how to convert the CCS and MRV between "w" numbers?

The ester should help on the cold start, warm starts, and all the time by clinging to the metal. And the esters likely would provided extra protection against deposits since by clinging to the metal they will be in the way off deposits. They may even to some degree push existing deposits off as they "fight" for contact with the metal, at least it seems that is how the esters in Auto-Rx are supposed to work.

Yes total package performance is important but in general it seems the higher oil groups would be the better deal, especially at the same price. I also realize some Group I is sometimes needed for additive solubility, but does not ester also provide the same additive solubility advantage?

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Once you put this type of product in you never start metal to metal, even after a year there should be a one, one millionth inch of film. Even if the car has been in storage.

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Yeah, this is an advantage of esters.

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I believe MRV is the best indicator, followed by CCS, and lastly pour point.

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Yes, I see this the same way.

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Or do you know how to convert the CCS and MRV between "w" numbers?

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I guess this is impossible.

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And the esters likely would provided extra protection against deposits since by clinging to the metal they will be in the way off deposits.

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Hm. No, this is not the way things work....
Dispersants are the key for deposit control, and nothing but dispersants.

If you look into oil analysis during a complete engine life, and you overdrain the service intervals 4-5 times, you'll see that Nitrates and Nitrateesters will accumulate. These are polar components, having their origin in blowby gases. These are sludge precursors. As they are polar, they stick on the metal the same way esters do. This is the reason why you see sludge most of the time first after 4-6 years old vehicles.

If you would drain more often in between, you could get rid of those sludge precursors. Having ester based oil may result in faster accumulation of those molecules. But I have no data, I don't know if this is true.

Not sure I follow

One of benefits
Detergency/Dispersency: The polar nature of esters also makes them good solvents and dispersants. This allows the esters to solubilize or disperse oil degradation by-products which might otherwise be deposited as varnish or sludge, and translates into cleaner operation and improved additive solubility in the final lubricant.

Auto rx looks a good cleaner!

quote:

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Originally posted by Callisa: No, this is not the way things work....
Dispersants are the key for deposit control, and nothing but dispersants.

If you look into oil analysis during a complete engine life, and you overdrain the service intervals 4-5 times, you'll see that Nitrates and Nitrateesters will accumulate. These are polar components, having their origin in blowby gases. These are sludge precursors. As they are polar, they stick on the metal the same way esters do. This is the reason why you see sludge most of the time first after 4-6 years old vehicles.

If you would drain more often in between, you could get rid of those sludge precursors. Having ester based oil may result in faster accumulation of those molecules. But I have no data, I don't know if this is true.

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Fascinating! This tells me that running a synthetic is no gaurentee that you will not get sludge. Also, the polar nature of the blowby byproducts leads me to think one does not want too thin an oil (thinner film, more blowby, right?). But esters helping sludge formation... did I understand correctly?

Yes, I agree dispersants are key for deposit control. I guess I was speculating when I said the esters likely would prevent deposits by clinging to the metal.

Thanks

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This tells me that running a synthetic is no gaurentee that you will not get sludge.

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If course not.

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But esters helping sludge formation... did I understand correctly?

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It could this way, or the other way...
I don't know at this moment, I have to read a little literature and think about this.

quote:

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The polar nature of esters also makes them good solvents and dispersants. This allows the esters to solubilize or disperse oil degradation by-products which might otherwise be deposited as varnish or sludge, and translates into cleaner operation and improved additive solubility in the final lubricant.

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Sounds good. I'll check that out. I have only few experience with ester oils.

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Also, the polar nature of the blowby byproducts

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...there is a lot more inside, also polar products.

Callisa
This is good re esters
http://www.hatcocorporation.com/pages/about_esters.html

As I read it esters are expensive and only used if needed in performance sector.

However Magnatec came from other direction dino + esters for start up protection.

These ester compounds are patented and hence M1 Supersyth.

The question being raised is how much ester is really needed for a road car as not much doubt about race use.

The easiest route is to chose say Silkolene being an ester base stock plus PAO for reasonable price and suitable for track days with a road car.

Alternative is to mix say RL with normal oil, however this means mixing additives which may not perform as intended, note also not all Motul oil can be mixed with same brand.

Sorry, Germany has different products.Hatco is unknown to me to be represented in Germany. Doesn't matter. Maybe I'll try a 100% ester base oil. I have one in my mind. Maybe I'll do just some paper research.

Thanks anyway.

Ester info

http://www.hatcocorporation.com/pages/about_esters.html

http://www.motul.co.jp/eg/fact_sheets/estel_oil.html

Callisa: maybe you can make it yourself? LUBRIZOL

Some light reading if not seen before

http://www.hatcocorporation.com/pages/about_esters.html

Sorry guys, lot's of work to do at this moment.
Thanks for the information, but I need a few weeks more time. I stick into some other things right now rather deeply...

Yes, it's oil related...

I cannot quote all that I would like .

Esters for start up protection is not a cure all or even a must . Other additves like boron , moly which are plated by heat activation to the internal engine surfaces are there and ready to protect . Nothing will give you better start protection than an oil in the correct viscosity for the ambient and the engine in use that pumps well and gets to the parts quickly .

To want polar protection then to use a 10w-40 in 20F ambient is backwards . The oil still must flow or pump well . Base oils must also have anti-wear additives and anti-corrosion additves working alone or together. Just because Ester is polar and may be attached to certain metals does not mean they will not be wiped off the surface immediately upon start .

Ester is used as a pour point depressant for some group I oils . You might already have a small amount in the oil you use but not enough to compete for the metal surfaces like surfactants/metal de-activators or the boron and moly if the formula uses it .

Oils have become very synergystic in approach , not one additive does it all and it's to the point synthetic base oils are almost synergystic when they are blended to improve performance over the strictly PAO-Ester of the past .

What metals do you believe Ester can adhere to in a polar way ?

Timer,

The assumption must be that you have choosen the correct oil viscocity with the necessary additive package.

The question is whether the package can be improved by changing to an ester based or content oil

Quote from Silkolene

Due to their structure, ester molecules are “polar”; they stick to metal surfaces using electrostatic forces. This means that a protective layer is there at all times, even during that crucial start-up period. This helps to protect cams, gears, piston rings and valve train components, where lubrication is “boundary” rather than “hydrodynamic”, i.e. a very thin non-pressure fed film has to hold the surface apart. Even crank bearings benefit at starts, stops or when extreme shock loads upset the “hydrodynamic” film. (Are you listening, all you rally drivers and off road fanatics?)

This splits into two questions
1) Beneficial for start up
2) Beneficial for extreme use as in Motorsport

Re 1) This is the Magnatec hype or not
Until the oil reaches all engine parts does the ester protect?
and Magnatec state the first 10mins but to me this is the same with all oils unless the additives do not work properly until up to operating temperature compared to esters.

2) Most Motorsport oil is ester based apart from M1 and Castrol Shell but are they adding more esters in blend without disclosing this fact

quote:

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Due to their structure, ester molecules are “polar”; they stick to metal surfaces using electrostatic forces.

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In fact, once you have them in your engine, it's quite hard to get completly rid of them again. One oil change is most of the time not enough.

If you are really worried about cold start protection, look at pumping and crancing Viscosity of an oil. I know most data sheets don't show this, but sometimes you can find that information.

What's more important after cold start, is that the oil get's heated up to let's say more then 80°C. If you don't do that for a dozen times, do a lot of cold starts and then start to do racing, you'll experience increased wear because the additives need a little heat to get activated and protect your engine.

Callisa

Ester oils are good at pumping and cranking and they are there to protect all the time unlike additives that need to get activated.

That would mean that you could formulate ester oils without antiwear additives. That is according to my knowledge not possible. You need those additives.

I would only use an ester to formulate a daily use pao gasoline engine oil to help offset engine seal shrinkage and to aid soluability of the dispersant package .

When using PE and other esters close attention along with bench and field tests must be used to make sure the final product with additives is not corrosive to lead and copper .

Trimethyl Propane works well at up to 10% wt for such use in pao oil formulas . Another ester is good to around 20% with group III and that type blend is in our future showing surprising results already with the correct additive pack.

They still need pour point depressants and vi index improvers . Even the Pao ester blends .

It's great to read information off of an site that makes primarily ester oils . That info will always be pro ester though and there is two sides to the coin .

The downsides to ester is exactly why mobil maintains it's use of primarily pao lubes for long term use and there are internal engine parts that no oil can protect that gets overlooked as far as the ultimate in longetivety goes .

Ring land on pistons along with connecting rod elongation of the large end are but two of these parts .

Some oils are just flat overkill and using them in normal operation will not yield an engine that lasts longer . Using overkill oils in extreme conditions can even add to problems seen in the newer engines .

Timer

Esters also have a polar attraction to metallic substrates, so they provide startup protection until the ZDDP becomes fully active.
ZDDP works around 150 to 300 F while Moly takes over from there and up to 500 F.
This leaves a gap in protection so we use engine gently until oil up to temp.
However on start up we rely on the oil being pumped to all engine parts or all oil has not drained down.
The ester additive provides this protection?

With PAO there may be sufficient ester anyway (How much in M1 and is it enough?)
With Mineral Magnatec added the ester and generated the hype.

A pure ester is probably overkill unless racing
M1 Supersyn is a friction modifier ester which may be a bit more than an additive carrier so say perhaps 10% as you indicated.

With M1 Motorsport is additional ester added?

Group III with 20% ester provide an interesting cheaper blend and Magnatec may be the GI & II with 20% ester forerunner.

quote:

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Originally posted by MGBV8:
Timer

Esters also have a polar attraction to metallic substrates, so they provide startup protection until the ZDDP becomes fully active.
ZDDP works around 150 to 300 F while Moly takes over from there and up to 500 F.

.

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That does not matter though . An engine when first started does not have to rely on boundry lubrication . All the zinc in the world will not help here even is the engine is abused in the first 5-10 seconds of cold start .
Moly and plated boron works well along with dual function VII's if used then add the well chosen oil what pumps to the critical top end parts .

Dry starts is never thought of in this way . To drain engine oil and change oil filter creates the dryest of starts . So to get away fron cheap oils that require 2-3 month changes and move on to 6 month or longer oil changes with better PAO lubes will reduce much start up wear over a 10 year life span .
As the engines wear , it takes longer for the oil pump to reprime . Everyone who performs their own oil changes have heard the main bearing death knock at one time or another .

Re main bearing death knock. Just imagine some flunkie at the local shop after changing your oil, fireing up your engine and revving the life out of your engine to get the oil light to go out, all the while the engine death-knocking like mad.

Interesting poing about minimize oil change starts, but I find by prefilling the filter it is no worse than a cold start. The oil pump should not lose prime on an oil change. Happened to me only once in 27 years. You can prevent it by pumping a little oil down the oil pump output at the filter mount.

So what protects the engine at cold start before the pump brings up pressure? AW/EP components that have plated onto the metal and the remaining oil film from the last shutdown. So a thicker oil (40 weight) would likely leave more up in the parts for the next start. But an ester would be even better. Now if you say that oil film gets scraped off quickly, how quickly? This would show a need for quick oil flow, which is another strong point of esters. I mixed 50/50 Redline and Maxlife 10w30s and put it in the freezer at zero F. Compared to straight Maxlife 10w30, the mix pours better.

40 wt will run off parts just as a 30 wt will unless tackifiers are in the formula , think race dino only there .
All newer engines are not like yours and have differing oil systems.

Take a 4.6 Ford , drain the oil pan until it quits dripping then unscrew the oil filter , about a half quart will siphon out and into the pan .

Oh also , you cannot prefill a horizontal mount filter .

Ester will be swiped off the parts and the oil it's used in still needs delivered as quick as possible . If there is a long delay , just as much start wear as the next oil more or less .


Marketing gets in the way of truth sometimes so beware what you read .

One probable last thing from me on this particular subject of Esters supposedly doing such a great job reducing wear during cold starts where none of the other additives combined can approach such qualities if the oil is esterless as you are telling me .

I believe it's been agreed that 90% or more wear is caused during cold start . Please take your best used oil analysis and compare to your next one using Castrol Startup , a formulated ester oil or even the proposed spike with Redline mixed with conventional oil .

You should show ZERO wear or a minimum 10% or better wear metal reduction just because an ester is now used in some fashion correct ?

40 wt will run off parts just as a 30 wt will unless tackifiers are in the formula. Well, I guess ester oil is sort of tackified.

Re the Ford 4.6, a great engine, but poorly designed re oiling. When an engine needs a 5w20 along with reservoirs of oil up in the block to ensure the ohc gets lubed quickly enough, it is not a practicable design in my book. I will stick with my 1965-designed 300 straight six Ford.

Oh also , you cannot prefill a horizontal mount filter . Oh that beautiful 300 straight six. Horizontal mount filter, but I prefill it nearly to the brim with very little spillage because I can mount it from above holding it vertically until just as I flip it up onto the stud. Would prefer a slight down angle to make the antidrainback valve less critical, but it works, especially with Purolator or Motorcraft filters.

How much will esters be swiped off? Completely? But if more is left in the bearing upon shutdown than with non ester fortified oil, that is better, right? Might as well have something there while you are waiting for the oil to come up to pressure.

One probable last thing from me on this particular subject of Esters supposedly doing such a great job reducing wear during cold starts where none of the other additives combined can approach such qualities if the oil is esterless as you are telling me . I don't know. Perhaps additives could give as good of startup protection as esters presumably would. I view the ester as a nice thing to have as it (1) clings to metal thereby giving a little more protection, even if it does wipe off, (2) if makes the total mix flow better cold, (3) it apparently has cleaning properties, and (4) it holds up well under intense heat.

I believe it's been agreed that 90% or more wear is caused during cold start . Please take your best used oil analysis and compare to your next one using Castrol Startup , a formulated ester oil or even the proposed spike with Redline mixed with conventional oil.

You should show ZERO wear or a minimum 10% or better wear metal reduction just because an ester is now used in some fashion correct ?

I don't know if anyone has ever run tests to actually see what startup wear is, but it seems reasonable to assume there is more wear at startup than otherwise. If I do a mix and an analysis, I sure will compare them. Not sure how much wear would be reduced (if any) by using ester in the oil. Depends on how many cold starts and a statistically significant sample would require much more than two oil analysis. Likely only laboratory testing can discern a difference.

Thanks

Timer,

Esters prevent metal to metal contact whearas additives minimise wear.

However on start up we are only talking about the time taking for the oil to reach the necessary parts.

It would be useful to have some evidence either way.



I cannot see that esters provide any more protection after this initial phase

MG ,

I fully understand the difference between additives and esters . I was pointing out that ZDDP will not help during cold start that much due to operational temps or lack of .

Keep in mind the future holds for ester base oil to be part of the additive packs . Particular types do offer exceptional anti-wear and frictin modification it's just I wanted to get thoughts in proper perspective on the use of them marketed as a start-up protector only . Their are many additives that will and "do" the same job .These are not metals or salts either . They are not seen through analysis .

Fuchs is using a base oil as part of the additive package now , Elf is playing with it in their SXR 5w-30 . The world of oils are getting greener everyday , greener as in enviromentaly friendly .

No doubt Silkolene and others make fine primarily ester oils that if used in very demanding applications will shine . These oils though can be outperformed in everday use by others if chosen wisely based on some education for 1/2 the price is all .

I'm not brand loyal but in the UK , Esso has every product you would need . Mobil as well unless we get into a racing engine topic then many others enter the picture .

I would think other manufacturers of oils in the UK offer full product lines too .