Why is my lead sky high?

Have you been feeding the vehicle some aviation fuel? I've seen these kind of numbers from aircraft engine oils using leaded fuel. It seems aviation fuel is the last one to still use tetraethyl lead as an octane booster.

Hopefully your catalytic converter still works.

Nope, just plain old 87 octane. Usually Mobil or Sunoco, but some BP too. I just wonder if all that was freed up from the cleaning treatments and still being rinsed out from the engine surfaces. Will do another UOA at 3000 miles on current fill.

My guess is that the "STP 6000" contains lead (as lubrication agent) and therefore is discontiued..

quote:

Originally posted by mr. Hughes:
My guess is that the "STP 6000" contains lead (as lubrication agent) and therefore is discontiued..

Good point, but my motorhome had 4400 miles with 20 ounces of the same STP stuff and had only 1 ppm lead.

That's quite a stew you formulated for your vehicle.

1) I would have the lab recheck the sample if they retained it or see if they can verify the numbers.

2) Recommend resampling to verify the results.

4) Have a reference sample of the mixture of products you are using tested for comparison, if you still have some of the same lot available. Sometimes, the products we buy are NOT in specification or as expected.

5) PERHAPS: the lead constiuent that was indicated could be the result of "corrosion" of the metals/bearings in your engine. This can be further determined by analytical ferrography or filterable solids digested and analyzed by ICP.

6) Worst case: something is going wrong in your engine. Exception testing will tell the story.

Without further actions (verification, resampling, exception tests), it is very difficult to "guess" where the lead constituent is coming from. (it's either in solution or generated wear). It's kind of like the element silicon you see in your report. It could be from "silica" or "silicone".

I would also try to find out the actual metallurgy of the bearings and other parts in the engine to get a better idea of the source. There are several alloys used in bearing material with each exhibiting different concentrations of lead, tin, and other alloys.

I am not an expert as to the alloys used in main crank bearings. I would have to research this myself.

I hope that the blend of products and strategies you are using didn't cause some sort of additive upset that resulted in a mechanical problem(?).

Good Luck.

Stevis, You give me too much credit. I didn't "formulate" this batch. I brewed it the old fashioned way:

Pretty sure the lab did recheck the result when they first ran it. Don't have a reference sample or any of that lot, but a good idea to always save a little for that purpose.

Lab did not think it was the bearings because the other wear metals were low.

I plan to do an analysis at 3000 miles on the current batch, which is a much tamer brew: Valvoline Durablend 10w40 and one bottle Valvolilne Synpower Oil Treatment.

quote:

Why the very high lead? If it were bearings, would it not also have high tin and copper?

But the tin and copper "is" elevated . Compare to your previous analysis's , especially the tin .

Duh, Of course Motorbike. I should have thought of that.

First analysis was in 2003 at 108,500 miles on a 3012 mile OCI with 10w40.

Second analysis was last month at 123,200 miles on a 4200 mile OCI with a thick 10w30.

Here are the numbers:

Parameter: 2003 OCI, 2005 OCI

Tin: 0, 12
Lead: 4, 476
Copper: 6, 13
Iron: 7, 14
Silicon: 12, 12

Curious: why was the silicon not higher given that the PCV breather was sucking unfiltered air?

I plan on an analysis at 3000 miles on the current fill. Or should I do it sooner? I am currently at 1600 miles.

Thanks

Silicon might not "appear" higher if ingressed dirt through the PCV breather was captured by the oil filter or hit the bottom of the pan and stayed there.

Detection of metals by ICP or Rotating Disc are affected by particle size. If particle sizes are large (ie: >10 micron) the particles are likely to not be completely "burned" and yield an exact concentration.

That's why Dirty Harry says "A man's got to know his limitations" (I think it was Dirty Harry,). Some of our oil analysis tests have limitations and require companion and exception tests.

That's why I recommended exception tests in my previous post.

I would recommend sampling sooner than later. This will aid in determining if you have an ongoing wear issue or if the presumed wear metals (as indicated)were from a crud burst due to the extra stuff you added last time.

The downside is that you might not get a good idea of what happened if the engine had an "event" and has reached a new equilibrium (and your evidence from the last drain is in the waste drum).

I am still curious if your condition was due to active wear, corrosion, or was a crud burst.

What sampling method are you using? Your sampling method can have a great impact on your test results. Perhaps we can help.

Looking forward to your response.

I forgot something yesterday.

Was aluminum or chromium reported in your test results? If so, what was the trend?

Aluminum could indicate piston wear and/or dirt ingression.

Chromium could indicate ring wear.

Still wondering if your engine has an abnormal active wear condition, had an "event", had a crud burst, or sampling issues are involved.

Let us know!!

Stevis:

Aluminum was 3 ppm in 2003 and 6 ppm with the high lead.
Chromium was 1 ppm in both.

Sampling is through a Fram Sure Drain valve. When I dumped the oil I let a quart or more drain off and then grabbed the sample.

To sample this batch I will have to drain into a clean bottle, grab the sample, and then put the quart back in the engine.

I would like to sample now. If lead is still high a change and maybe flush would be a good idea. The breather was still disconnected the first 260 miles of this current OCI, but I changed the filter after 200 miles, quite by coincidence because it was giving me dry starts. When I checked that filter I did not get gritty feeling from the filter folds, but then it was only 200 miles. So the present filter has only 60 miles of it disconnected. I am running a Valvoline Maxlife filter now.

Sadly I did not save a spare sample, but it probably would be a good practice in the future.

Thanks for all your input. If you think it's a good idea I will go ahead and pull a sample in the next few days. I expect some residual lead from the drippings left from the last change as well as the short time with the hose still disconnected, but I would think it should be much lower this time, maybe no more than 50 t0 100. I will keep UOAing until it returns to normal.

Well, here's another idea for the Do it yourself'ers.

You seem to be really into lubes and analysis, so I offer the following:

1) Perform your own particle analysis. This can be done with some solvent, vacuum sample gun with a funnel attachment, and a handy-dandy microscope from Radio Shack or the like. I am also aware that there are inexpensive microscope attachments that can be plugged into a personal computer that works really well. Check the Noria buyer's guide for the sample/funnel parts for the supplier.

2) Some solvent, beaker, and an old magnet from a dead speaker works to visually observe ferro-magnetic particles. Hold the magnet on the bottom of the beaker.

3) Try the blotter-spot method. There's info out there regarding this method. Check the Noria archives.

4) Try dissecting a filter and washing out the debris and making a filtergram. You'll need a clean cut on the filter housing to keep from adding "cutting debris" to your analysis.

These are all qualitative tests that can be easily performed in the garage. It can be fun, too.

I would suggest that you keep after your engine. If you need a referral to a source of laboratory wear debris analysis, let me know. The cost of tests is not that high with respect to your engine. (BTW: I don't work for a lab!)

We'll be watching for your next results.

Stevis: I will certainly post the next set of results here.

I have a set of 9 blotter spots (every 500 miles) through this OCI. It is in a PDF file at the office. I can send it to you Tuesday if you are interested. I will say they are a bit unusual because of the ring formation. I have been doing blotters for two years now.

1995 F150, 4.9L inline six, 126,200 miles with 10w40 SL Valvoline Durablend 5.5 qts and 15 oz Valvoline Synpower Oil Treatment for 3000 miles (oil is still in truck with 3450 miles now). Since I had sky high lead the last OCI I have included the numbers from the previous OCI in parenthesis for comparison (* is less than 1 ppm).

The issue is that in the previous OCI the PCV breather hose was sitting unhooked from its filter and sucking raw air while I blithely drove 20 miles per day of construction zone. Lot of sand in the air box, so I figure sand went in the breather hose too.

Lead has dropped significantly from 476 ppm to 114 ppm. That lead is still high may be due to the breather hose still being unhooked for the first 250 miles of the current OCI. Copper, tin, and iron are much lower too, so I figure the lead is residual and the next OCI should be close to normal.

What bugs me is the viscosity. I don’t doubt the viscosity of the previous OCI because I was running a thick 10w30, but the current OCI was 10w40 plus VSOT and should have been 13.9 cSt plus the VSOT. My oil pressure gauge also supports the thicker oil. (BTW, the previous OCI viscosity is slightly different from that reported in the linked VOA thread but is what is printed in the comparison on the current oil report.)

So finally, what to do? Since lead already in the oil is not going to harm the engine (hey, might help lubricate, no?), it seems reasonable to take this OCI out to 5000 miles. Or would it be wise to change it now and get a clean fill? Should I run a quick rinse with some cheap oil and a quart or two of Marvel Mystery Oil? Don’t say AutoRx because it had a double treatment and rinse already prior to the previous OCI. Prior to the AutoRx my lead was 4 ppm.

K = * (*)
V = * (*)
Moly = 202 (268) ppm
Magnesium = 129 (?) ppm
Calcium = 1665 (1681) ppm
Phosphorus = 862 (888) ppm
Zinc = 1068 (1002) ppm
Sb = * (*)
Titanium = * (*)
Silver = * (*)
Copper = 8 (13) ppm
Lead = 114 (476) ppm
Tin = 1 (12) ppm
Aluminum = 3 (6) ppm
Nickel = * (1) ppm
Iron = 8 (14) ppm
Chromium = * (1) pm
Cd = * (*)
Sodium = 14 (13) ppm
Boron = 32 (32) ppm
Silicon = 9 (12) ppm
Water = less than .05 % vol (less than .05)
Soot = less than 0.2 (0.6) %
Glycol = N (N)
Fuel = less than 0.5 (less than 0.5)
100C vis cSt = 12.61 (12.76)
_________________________
* = less than 1 ppm

With all of the variables <that you have> introduced in your vehicle, I don't see how you could draw any meaningful conclusions based on the oil analysis data you currently have.

Why not attach the PCV system, replace all the filters, and just use the factory recommended oil for a few standard factory recommended oil change intervals and then see where you stand? Possibly if you stop messing around and worrying so much while eliminating all the goop <'er, I mean additives> that you insist on using in your oil and return the vehicle to its factory stock condition, it will work the way it was initially designed?

Chumley

Well Chumley, I doubt it is additives. Perhaps the AutoRx, but when I search the oil guy site for high lead and AutoRx, I see people complaining about 16 ppm lead. No, I'm pretty sure it has to do with the PCV intake and BTW that was reconnected at the time I discovered it loose. Anyway, I did not see any benefit from AutoRx and have no plans to ever use it again. And, in fact, I am not really worried about my lead levels. I think it will all settle down to normal in a few OCIs.

I knew that!

Chumley

I had saw high lead, no tin engine oil sample before. Because the bearing overlay is SAE 15 alloy(lead babbit metal), which is about 85%Pb,14%Sb,and 1%As. There will be no tin in oil when bearing overlay worn. You can analyse Sb ppm to confirm.

Regard,
Jack

In both cases Sb was less than 1 ppm which I take to mean they did not detect Sb at a 1 ppm detection limit.

Oh sorry I missed Sb ppm part in your post. Well, . Thank you for sharing this interesting case.

An interesting case and still more to come. I was hoping to report even lower levels this spring, but about 1700 miles into the current OCI I found the other end of the same breather hose (where it enters the valve cover) popped out of the valve cover. Who knows how long that was out. Difference is it was winter and no construction, so no extra sand and thankfully for this situation, there was practically no road salt because we have had virtually no snow this winter, but for a nice storm in December. So hopefully this was not out long and did not ingest a lot of grit and my lead actually will have gone down. We'll see.

I'm getting close to 3000 miles, so maybe I should pull a sample soon. Maybe have something posted in a month or so.

Well lead is down nice and low this time, but iron is a shade high as is silicon, and copper is rather up there.

The oils are:

Aug 05: A mixture of about 30/70 NAPA Synthetic 15w50 and 10w30, about 20 oz Redline, about 14 oz Maxlife Engine Protector, and about 5 oz STP 6000-Mile OIl Extender (discontinued), sampled at 4200 miles.

Dec 05: Durablend 10w40 with Synpower Oil Treatment, sampled at 3000 miles and run to 3500.

(Jan 05 I did a 200 mile OCI of 5w20 for a rinse, no UOA data though.)

April 06: Citgo Ultralife (sampled at 3000 miles) with about 12 oz of Coastal 5w20 that I sloshed through the empty (but still coated around the edges) gallon can of PCMO additive (21000 ppm zinc, and other stuff, complete package), so that helps explain the nice zddp levels, though Ultralife is supposed to be around 1200 ppm z and p from the get go, so accounting for depletion, the PCMO additive seems to have boosted it back up.

I did notice the breather hose unhooked, but this time from the valve cover end of things (Aug05 OCI it was at the air box and for a long time during road construction). This time I don't think it was unhooked for long and there was virtually no snow, so no road salt but for what was laid down in Dec (our only real snow storm of the winter).

This oil is still in the truck and now has 3500 miles on it. Guess I will run it out to 5000 miles.

Key:
All in ppm unless otherwise noted.
* = less than 1 ppm
LT = less than

Parameter = Aug05, Dec05, April06
K = *, *, *
V = *, *, *
Moly = 268, 202, 4
Magnesium = 149, 129, 426
Calcium = 1681, 1665, 3533
Phosphorus = 888, 862, 1185
Zinc = 1002, 1068, 1474
Sb = *, *, *
Titanium = *, *, *
Silver = *, *, *
Copper = 13, 8, 74
Lead = 476, 114, 11
Tin = 12, 1, *
Aluminum = 6, 3, 5
Nickel = 1, *, 2
Iron = 14, 8, 29
Chromium = 1, *, 2
Cd = *, *, *
Sodium = 13, 14, 14
Boron = 32, 32, 1
Silicon = 12, 9, 20
Water = LT 0.05, LT 0.05, LT 0.05
Soot = 0.6, LT 0.2, LT 0.02 percent
Glycol = N, N, N
Fuel = LT 0.5, LT 0.5, LT 0.5
100C vis cSt = 12.76, 12.61, 11.73
_________________________

For the Aug05 OCI the moly was Maxlife Engine Protector. For Dec05 the moly was Synpower Oil Treatment.

The Citgo oil used has a load of boron and moly that the lab did not pick up . I'd toss it in the trash as it's useless IMO . If the moly and boron is not correct , how can one positively say the copper is ?

If truely concerned about the engine condition just run a 10w-30 of the same brand without doping for a couple intervals and recheck . I sincerely hope the relentless doping and mixing of oils does not cause the early demise of this otherwise battle tough Ford 300ci inline six cylinder engine series thats been known to run 300-500k miles .

If your not hearing main bearing knock on cold start I'd not worry too much. Oil analysis is not a tell all thing at all times as proved many times over .
It can lighten the pocket book though w/o obtaining any meaningfull info in return for the funds spent .

Best wishes was mean't by this post

Thanks for the tip Motorbike. I'll see if the lab can re run the copper moly and boron. I have three more kits with this lab and then need to find a new lab. What ever happened with Butler Catepillar Labs in Bismark ND? They were a site sponsor at the oil guy site until Mark died and then they were dropped, never to be mentioned there again. I believe the lab should still be good though.

Oh yeah, no discernable knocking on startup.

Okay, just talked to Citgo. The tech person said the oil I used should be 60 ppm moly and boron less than 10 ppm, but usually closer to zero. He went over the whole UOA and felt maybe a bushing was wearing some, but did not fell the oil needed to be changed before 5000 miles. I'll run it out to that for now.

Got back with the Lab tech. He said the numbers do not look like what he first saw and he would re run things for me. Now copper is 9 ppm and lead is 64. That is more in line with what I would expect in a trend off the last two UOAs. Also I think the previous UOA was modified some. Here are all three with the latest lab sheet (all three on one sheet):

SIGNIFICANTLY CORRECTED DATA IN BOLD:
Parameter = Aug05, Dec05, April06
K = *, *, *
V = *, *, *
Moly = 268, 202, 91
Magnesium = 149, 129, 46
Calcium = 1681, 1665, 1877
Phosphorus = 888, 862, 889
Zinc = 1002, 1068, 967
Sb = *, *, *
Titanium = *, *, *
Silver = *, *, *
Copper = 13, 8, 9
Lead = 476, 124, 64
Tin = 12, 3, *
Aluminum = 6, 3, 4
Nickel = 1, *, 1
Iron = 14, 8, 12
Chromium = 1, *, 2
Cd = *, *, *
Sodium = 13, 15, 14
Boron = 32, 34, 81
Silicon = 12, 10, 16
Water = LT 0.05, LT 0.05, LT 0.05
Soot = 0.6, LT 0.2, LT 0.02 percent
Glycol = N, N, N
Fuel = LT 0.5, LT 0.5, LT 0.5
100C vis cSt = 12.76, 12.61, 11.73

Thanks Motorbike! Your knowledge is very valuable.