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Read our primer articles on High Mileage Oil, Synthetic Oil and Kinematic Viscosity

quote:
Originally posted by RobertC:
quote:
Originally posted by GeeAea:
While on the surface I would conclude that both the M1 and P1 are superior to the EaO, you've got to keep multipass ratings in perspective.

The reason this is so is due to the protocol used to rate a filter. The multipass tests required loading of the upstream fluid until the filter is saturated ..aka SHOT.

So you're not dealing with anything absolute right out of the box. You're reaching that level at the end of life.

The nominal rating is more indicative of sensible filter performance.

If you tracked the M1 vs. EaO over 5k and 10k on BITOG, you saw the EaO begin to catch up. The owner wasn't willing to entertain using the 5k or 10k filters over again to determine the performance in 15k-20k range.

The EaO is a 25k/1 year filter under just about all conditions. The M1 is a 15k one year filter where a one year OCI is sensible (which would be probably around 15k) The PureOne is (probably) a 15k/one year filter (same deal).


To make a better example, you could probably use an EaO over 4 or 5 5k OCI's ..3 with the M1 or PureOne. During the first 2, the M1 and PureOne will probably filter better. They're deeper into their lifespan toward saturation. Closer to their multipass rating.

Amsoil needed a ONE YEAR filter to compliment their ONE YEAR lubricants. They no longer needed to have intermediate filter changes to replenish additives. Hence, the EaO.


Non sensical.

Nomimal rating is done via measuring pores under a microscope.

Beta ratings ARE multipass efficiency. With particle counters on stream.

Betas are the standard.


Sure, nominal is a single pass test. The measuring modality is totally irrelevant. I believe their all done via optical laser.


Go and buy the multipass protocol ... You add material until the media is saturated. You don't find the saturation figure and then redo the test at half way and say "Wow, I've got a beta20= "much lower in efficiency than I could advertise".
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
I'd rather use the 15,000 severe miles to 25,000 normal mile up to 1 year AMSOIL filter than the 3,000 to 7,500 mile Purolator PureOne filter or the 15,000 normal mile (only if out of factory warranty) Mobil 1 filter.


People should buy based on getting their money's worth out of a filter. PureOne is a pretty good value. Not many people do the mileage in one year to justify an EaO.

Now a PureOne is a waste over a $3 filter if you're a 3k/3m type ..or even a 6month/6k type unless you're willing to use the filter for one year and change the oil at six months. The lower the mileage, the less sense it makes to use an expensive filter.

Insolubles ..combustion byproducts are what loads a filter. It's not chunks of metal, at least other than the random bigger chunks. The loading depends on the cold starts and fuel enrichment. Longer daily drivers don't produce a proportionate amount of insoluble material on average. The out of enrichment miles are mostly hollow.
I'll never understand why supposedly knowledgalbe people will use an inferior filter.

Really, you'll use a 15,000 mile 'severe' filter that does not work as well over a filter that FILTERS better?

What is the point of, oh, filtering if you do it wrong?

GA, I have a friend who does top of the line everything for his vehicle. and then throws it all out at 3,000 miles.

Go figure.
quote:
Originally posted by RobertC:
I'll never understand why supposedly knowledgalbe people will use an inferior filter.
Me too.

quote:
Really, you'll use a 15,000 mile 'severe' filter that does not work as well over a filter that FILTERS better?
What warranted filter performs better during a 15,000 severe miles oil and filter change than an EaO or a bypass filtration system? The 3500 Texas State Police cars use the EaO for 20,000 severe mile AMSOIL oil and filter changes for the past 10 years and had better used oil analysis, less wear and fewer repairs than when they used 2,000 to 3,000 mile conventional oil and filter changes. And saved a lot of time and money.

quote:
What is the point of, oh, filtering if you do it wrong?
Exactly.

quote:
GA, I have a friend who does top of the line everything for his vehicle. and then throws it all out at 3,000 miles.

Go figure.
They've been brainwashed by the oil companies that own quick lubes that promote 3,000 mile oil changes. Whose fault is that?
Last edited by timvipond
quote:
Originally posted by RobertC:
While the EaO is a good filter, it's not a great filter.

I'll sacrifice longevity for effectiveness. Else, why bother?
The EaO is a great filter. No question about it.

Who else makes a full flow, synthetic nanofiber 15 micron near absolute, higher flow and particle capacity, and a 25,000 mile/1 year warranty? No one. These filters have shown use in million mile gasoline engines with 30,000 mile oil and filter change intervals and very little wear.
Last edited by timvipond
quote:
Originally posted by RobertC:
what is the EaOs beta rating?

Beta = 75 at 15 microns in accordance with industry standard ISO 4548-12 as performed by world renown independent SouthWest Research Institute in San Antonio, TX.
From http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/eao.aspx "Absolute Efficiency
AMSOIL Ea Oil Filters (EaO) have the best efficiency rating in the automotive/light-truck market. EaO Filters provide a filtering efficiency in accordance with industry standard ISO 4548-12 of 98.7 percent at 15 microns, while competitive filters containing conventional cellulose media range from 40 to 80 percent efficiency.

Less Restriction
AMSOIL Ea Oil Filters have significantly lower restriction than conventional cellulose media filters. Their small synthetic nanofibers trap smaller particles and hold more contaminants, resulting in lower restriction. During cold temperature warm-up periods, an EaO lube filter allows the oil to easily flow through the filter compared to a typical cellulose filter. Lower restriction decreases engine wear.

More Capacity
A filter’s capacity refers to the amount of contaminants it can hold and still remain effective. AMSOIL EaO Filters have a greater capacity for small, wear-causing contaminants than competing filter lines do. In most applications, when used in conjunction with AMSOIL synthetic motor oils in normal service, EaO Filters are guaranteed to remain effective for up to 25,000 miles or one year, whichever comes first."

Of course one of the ways to get even smaller particles filtered out is to use the AMSOIL EaA 100,000 mile air filter which absolute efficiency is 2 microns to keep out larger dirt/dust particles out of the oil in the first place.
Last edited by timvipond
quote:
Beta = 75 at 15 microns


So not a 15 micron ABSOLUTE as you said earlier.

That's a good filter, but now I am at the part that turns me off to Amsoil.

And I think if you do it once, you'll do it again. (not you specifically, a global you)

why claim an absurd 15 micron absolute rating when you have data that says a perfectly fine B75 at 15?

Why rely on a cheap screening test, 4 ball, as a basis for suitability when you have ngine run data that says it is better than some or even most?

My opinion, cherry picking to get tho the top of amsoils cherry picked list of attrtibutes.


At these levels of hyperbole and obfuscation, I have to wonder what is missed bu those without all of the raw data.
quote:
Originally posted by RobertC:
quote:
Beta = 75 at 15 microns


So not a 15 micron ABSOLUTE as you said earlier.
This is what some AMSOIL literature says "• Absolute Efficiency Filtration @ 15 Microns Per ISO 4548-12 " Some other literature says "Near-perfect absolute efficiency rating" This is why the 98.7% at 15 microns per ISO 4548-12 is given. Industry standard data that is often hard to find with other filters, likely because they do not perform as well. AMSOIL even prints the data on every box and filter and compares to "Conventional brand Name Synthetic Blend Filters" at 82.3% and "Conventional Brand Name Paper Oil filters" at 39.39% . Don't you wish other companies would step up and do the same?

quote:
That's a good filter, but now I am at the part that turns me off to Amsoil.

And I think if you do it once, you'll do it again. (not you specifically, a global you)

why claim an absurd 15 micron absolute rating when you have data that says a perfectly fine B75 at 15?
Again, this is what some AMSOIL literature says "• Absolute Efficiency Filtration @ 15 Microns Per ISO 4548-12 " Some other AMSOIL literature says "Near-perfect absolute efficiency rating " This is why the 98.7% at 15 microns per ISO 4548-12 is given. Industry standard data that is often hard to find with other filters, likely because they do not perform as well.

quote:
Why rely on a cheap screening test, 4 ball, as a basis for suitability when you have ngine run data that says it is better than some or even most?
The whole industry relies on the 4 ball test as a screening tool. It frequently correlates with engine wear tests as seen in numerous papers when comparing similar oils. And as seen when BP/Castrol and Ashland Valvoline saw 4X and 8X less engine wear than Mobil 1, which correlated to AMSOIL's 4 ball wear test. The 4 ball wear test is only 1 test AMSOIL uses to compare oils. You need to look at the data sheets, white papers, and other comparisons. I would rather use a well formulated oil that has better 4 ball wear results than one not formulated as well that has poorer 4 ball results.

quote:
My opinion, cherry picking to get tho the top of amsoils cherry picked list of attrtibutes.


At these levels of hyperbole and obfuscation, I have to wonder what is missed bu those without all of the raw data.

No one in the industry has ever proven AMSOIL of false data or claims for 38 years. No oil company has ever shown their oil to be equal to or superior to AMSOIL.
Last edited by timvipond
http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-En..._Specifications.aspx

These are the tests that are required for a motor oil to meet.

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-En...Mobil_1_Brochure.pdf

Honda tested several synthetic oils a few years ago and most failed miserably on the TEOST test. Amsoil probably would have done well, although when I asked why their ASL 5w30 was not recommended for HTO-06 they told me it might need a "booster" oook. They only recommend SSO for this spec.

If it wasn't for Mobil 1 being such a good oil and readily available, I'd probably be more inclined to use Amsoil. I've used Amsoil in the past and for my personal application it never outperformed Mobil 1.

quote:
Not All Oils Are Created Equal
Not all synthetic oils meet Acura’s HTO-06 standard.
In fact, using the wrong oil in a high-performance
turbocharged engine leads to accumulated deposits
in the engine, which reduces performance and
causes engine wear. In exhaustive testing conducted
by Acura engineers, Mobil 1 produced no critical
deposits on critical engine components such as
the seal ring, shaft, and the turbo walls.
I'd probably be willing to wager a nickel or three that Amsoil doesn't manufacture filters. You can buy a lot of private label filters with names ranging from fluid suppliers to parts suppliers to equipment builders, but the filters are manufactured by Wix, Fram, Purolator, or some other company that makes filters.

Amsoil can go to one of these companies and ask about what sort of options exist with regard to media type, pore size, support & flow configurations, just like anyone else who wants to market a private label filter.

But let's not kid ourselves that whoever Amsoil hired to make their filters gave them access to some special, super-secret combination of materials & design that's not available to anyone else who walks in the door. And don't imagine for a minute that design is better than the manufacturer's own top-of-the-line filter.
quote:
Originally posted by Buster:
http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-En..._Specifications.aspx

These are the tests that are required for a motor oil to meet.

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-En...Mobil_1_Brochure.pdf

Honda tested several synthetic oils a few years ago and most failed miserably on the TEOST test. Amsoil probably would have done well, although when I asked why their ASL 5w30 was not recommended for HTO-06 they told me it might need a "booster" oook. They only recommend SSO for this spec.

If it wasn't for Mobil 1 being such a good oil and readily available, I'd probably be more inclined to use Amsoil. I've used Amsoil in the past and for my personal application it never outperformed Mobil 1.

quote:
Not All Oils Are Created Equal
Not all synthetic oils meet Acura’s HTO-06 standard.
In fact, using the wrong oil in a high-performance
turbocharged engine leads to accumulated deposits
in the engine, which reduces performance and
causes engine wear. In exhaustive testing conducted
by Acura engineers, Mobil 1 produced no critical
deposits on critical engine components such as
the seal ring, shaft, and the turbo walls.
Too bad Mobil 1 5W30 off the shelf got caught failing the test for certification after it was certified. But several other certified oils have also.
Last edited by timvipond
quote:
Originally posted by Lamont B Dumont:
I'd probably be willing to wager a nickel or three that Amsoil doesn't manufacture filters. You can buy a lot of private label filters with names ranging from fluid suppliers to parts suppliers to equipment builders, but the filters are manufactured by Wix, Fram, Purolator, or some other company that makes filters.

Amsoil can go to one of these companies and ask about what sort of options exist with regard to media type, pore size, support & flow configurations, just like anyone else who wants to market a private label filter.

But let's not kid ourselves that whoever Amsoil hired to make their filters gave them access to some special, super-secret combination of materials & design that's not available to anyone else who walks in the door. And don't imagine for a minute that design is better than the manufacturer's own top-of-the-line filter.
Not true. AMSOIL is the only filter that has exclusively licensed Donaldson's proprietary synthetic nanofiber media for cars, light trucks and motorcycles. Thus it is better than any other filter on the market for the combination of filtration, flow, loading capacity, longevity and up to 25,000 miles/1 year warranty.
This debate is turning into the battle of Snake oil salesmen. It isn't hard to find out who is a Amsoil dealer from the way some of these responses are phrased. I was, in fact, a previous Amsoil dealer and quit because I don't buy into the pyramid scheme of Amsoil and the way they do business.

To Summarize the arguments up to this point:

Amsoil dealers claim that Amsoil filter is the end all filter that lasts up to 25,000 miles or 1 year which ever comes first.

PureONE is one of the best filters that supposedly doesn't last as long (mileage) but does a better job of filtering for the duration of its intended use as compared to Amsoil's EaO. (Filter quality vs. Duration compromise)

What if one doesn't drive anywhere near 25,000miles in one year duration and is it not economical to go Amsoil if this is the case?

*Amsoil dealer* - EaO is the best filter out there bar none, use it anyways.
*Conventional economics* - why bother paying the mark up, membership, tax, and shipping if you are going to ditch the car in 2-3 years (statistically)?

Amsoil dealers have to fight or argue against conventional wisdom to sell because that is their job so keep that in mind regardless of what is the best for the end-user. This is how I was taught and this is how they all come.

Tim Vipond is the voice of Amsoil while RobertC is the voice of conventional wisdom and I am the OP who thinks the following:

Why bother with oil filters if you buy cars that are made to last only 50,000-100,000 miles? Do all the calculations before making such a costly investment such as purchasing Amsoil and buying all sorts of special filters, pre-chargers (pre-lube units), by-pass filters (useless on non-Diesels and useless of Diesels for the most part), and all this other fancy oil by-products.

The world is trying to shift AWAY from oil and all the dependencies and not TOWARDS. Production electric cars are no longer a dream and no longer a dead beat like the EV1 as they are just around the corner with Nissan and Chevy releasing a few in 2011. Once Carbon Taxing kicks in the demand for hybrids and electrics will rise. Argument for Amsoil and oil-company side is that there will always be a demand for oil and by-products but there will be considerably LESS. Sure there will still be fleets and sure there will still be ICE-engines but that is fading. Amsoil dealers and the like will be at each others necks to grab whats left of the remaining customers who either don't have enough money for a hybrid (bogus because the Honda Insight's starting price is around $20k and does 41mpg combined - http://automobiles.honda.com/i...rid/performance.aspx) or econ diesel VW Polo (71mpg diesel).

I don't agree with either Tim Vipond or RobertC 100% because 3000 mile oil change is too extreme as most of the owners manuals says otherwise (5k+) and some cars (GM) that have oil change indicators based on acidity and various other engine factors end up changing their oil around 10k mark on DINO, yes read that right, DINO oil. On the other hand claiming Amsoil is the end all oil is nonsense. Amsoil has been around for a while now and if this were true then more people would be on the Amsoil team but they aren't because not everyone likes the idea of ordering oil from someone else through a pyramid scheme.

Let me present a final perspective on products that claim to save you money at the same time save the world. Suppose Tim Vipond made us all believers and we all reverted to Amsoil (this is impossible but lets assume that is it true). We all give big companies like Mobil the middle finger and switch our car's diet from changing the oil in our cars at 25,000miles instead of say 5,000miles (sorry RobertC). With Amsoil's claim of better engine protection, etc etc now our cars are running better, less gunk, less problems, less visits to the quick lube and the garage for Engine, transmission repairs, etc. We now consume 5 times less the motor oil as before and Dino oil is a thing of the past and synthetic reigns king. This saved us the money and also saves the Earth from unnecessary oil pollution and oil production. What is the consequence of such an action? Big oil takes a big hit, job loss there, quick lubes find little or no business even if they attempt to change Amsoil they would be down 5 times in frequency of customer visits, garages get less business engine related, job loss. Where does the money then go if we all use Amsoil? Albert J. Amatuzio and all the Direct Jobbers of the Month while a group of hopeless individuals who see Amsoil as the best thing since a slice of bread busts their butt to try to earn a pretty penny off of commissions.

MLM and let a few group of elites who have been in the game longer than everyone else win or allow the small local garages, national chains, and big oil dominate?

It is a hard call but those who truly claim that they want to save the Earth should quit using oil all together and get an electric car or the next best thing. (Coal,gas,Nuclear vs. Petroleum)

The debate goes on but I want to see more arguments backed up with REAL NUMBERS and not this "I use Amsoil/Mobil 1 and I think you should use it too." Give me a break.
I'd like to clarify a few things.
quote:
Originally posted by Ebolamonkey:
I was, in fact, a previous Amsoil dealer and quit because I don't buy into the pyramid scheme of Amsoil and the way they do business.
Where is this pyramid scheme you talk about? Pyramid schemes have been outlawed for years and AMSOIL has been in business for 38 years. AMSOIL Dealers are independent businessmen who make their money by selling AMSOIL/WIX/Donaldson/Mann-Hummel/NGK/Injen/Mother's products to individuals, retail stores, commercial accounts and government agencies. They can also make some money when their dealers they trained make sales. Sounds like a regular small business to me.

quote:
To Summarize the arguments up to this point:

Amsoil dealers claim that Amsoil filter is the end all filter that lasts up to 25,000 miles or 1 year which ever comes first.

PureONE is one of the best filters that supposedly doesn't last as long (mileage) but does a better job of filtering for the duration of its intended use as compared to Amsoil's EaO. (Filter quality vs. Duration compromise)
I have yet to see any independent data to confirm that PureONE does a better job of filtering than the AMSOIL filter.

quote:
What if one doesn't drive anywhere near 25,000miles in one year duration and is it not economical to go Amsoil if this is the case?
Some quick lubes, independents and dealerships recommend changing oil and filters every 3,000 miles or 3 months, so a minimum of 4 oil filters, where AMSOIL would only require 1 filter, saving time and money and fewer oil filters in the landfill. My Chevy and Ford recommend 3,000 mile filter and oil changes for severe service, where AMSOIL recommends/warranties up 15,000 miles for most vehicles, saving time and money on 4 oil and filter changes.


quote:
Amsoil dealers have to fight or argue against conventional wisdom to sell because that is their job so keep that in mind regardless of what is the best for the end-user. This is how I was taught and this is how they all come.
. No fighting required. When you figure the time and money AMSOIL saves most people, they figure out what is best for them.


quote:
Amsoil has been around for a while now and if this were true then more people would be on the Amsoil team but they aren't because not everyone likes the idea of ordering oil from someone else through a pyramid scheme.
If you don't like ordering through a Dealer, you can order direct from AMSOIL or purchase from a retail store.
Last edited by timvipond
quote:
Originally posted by Ebolamonkey:
MLM. Same difference.
Nope. Big difference. Educate yourself and learn the difference. http://www.amsoil.com/dealer/f...r/pyramid_scheme.pdf MLM is also known as Direct Marketing.

quote:
You can order through Amsoil at a huge mark up after you've seen the dealer prices. Tax and shipping still kills.
The price difference between wholesale (dealer price) and MSRP is only about 20%. For a $10 Preferred Customer Membership you can buy at wholesale for 6 months. When that runs out you can buy at 10% below MSRP. You pay tax on any motor oil. No shipping charge if you pick up at an AMSOIL warehouse.

quote:
You cannot be a successful dealer if you doubt your product which is why I am not sitting on that side of the fence now as the grass is greener on this pasture.
I don't doubt the product as I am a retired Shell Oil chemist.

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