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Read our primer articles on High Mileage Oil, Synthetic Oil and Kinematic Viscosity

quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
[I don't doubt the product as I am a retired Shell Oil chemist.


Phew! Now I can finally sleep at night. Can Amsoil just do a test on every level and kill all the other oils out there and be done with it? I don't see such a test with Amsoil winning in all categories.

So entertain me on this notion: What happens if you run 25,000 miles or 1 year which ever comes last? (i.e. if over one year run until 25k or more with UOA) The point is the SELL the oil and to cover one's own rear end by putting a safe warranty period. In reality if a Dino oil can go beyond 3000miles how much can Amsoil be pushed? This is advisable only under UOA as claimed by Amsoil but I am sure 30k is not unreasonable. Then what about 35k? You sell less when people use the oil for longer, period. You make even more money by having a UOA lab take tells people they need to change the oil when in reality the testing mechanism is so inconsistent with oil from the same batch that they had no clue themselves! This is America! Come on! Money, money, money!

I am surprised Mr.Synlube (Miro Kefurt) didn't chime in to promote his product the never changing oil and filter (that is basically a old Amsoil pre-EaO). What is the point of Amsoil when you can use a oil that never needs changing but only additional additives and periodic filter replacement?

Synlube is brought into consideration because you representing Amsoil knocks on all the "inferior" oils and since Synlube claims to be better than oils that need changing it is then the "superior" oil to Amsoil.
Last edited by ebolamonkey
Ebola, you misinterpret my intentions. Or I'm stupid waiting for my day shift guy to show....

I do NOT advocate or believe in short oil changes except under conditions where a manufacturer is noted for claiming out of warranty issues. And once that warranty is up, I'll extend the hell outta it.

In short, I'll glady go 25,000. Glady, I hate changing oil.

I won't do so with inferior products.

Tim,

You claim EaOs are better because they use Donaldsons patent.

Where is the independent proof that says that one is the best?

You ask for independent testing of a PureOne.

Let's see Amsoils. (Paying for it makes it dependent.)

And your filter analysis is wrong. I know it is what you have been taught, by a sales guy. Go get an MLA III and then talk to me.
quote:
Originally posted by Ebolamonkey:

Synlube is brought into consideration because you representing Amsoil knocks on all the "inferior" oils and since Synlube claims to be better than oils that need changing it is then the "superior" oil to Amsoil.


No oil really needs to be changed until it can no longer perform it's functions. A used oil analysis can determine this. However, most oil warranties (except AMSOIL) will put a limit on mileage or time even with a UAO. Some have gone as high as 400,000 miles on an AMSOIL oil change.
quote:
Originally posted by RobertC:


Tim,

You claim EaOs are better because they use Donaldsons patent.

Where is the independent proof that says that one is the best?

You ask for independent testing of a PureOne.

Let's see Amsoils. (Paying for it makes it dependent.)

And your filter analysis is wrong. I know it is what you have been taught, by a sales guy. Go get an MLA III and then talk to me.


Donaldson tests their filter media for AMSOIL. Independent SouthWest Research Institute also tests AMSOIL's filters.

Any certified lab can verify AMSOIL's claim of 98.7% filter efficiency @15 microns per ISO 4548-12 as publicly stated on every AMSOIL filter box and filter. I'm sure several have, and none have disputed. And none have that level of efficiency and back it up with up to 25,000 mile/1 year warranty. A bit more believable, substantial and documented compared to an " e-mail response from the tech/engineer department" at Purolator. Compare to Purolators oil filter change recommendation "Purolator PureONE oil filters should be replaced every 3,000 miles or 3 months depending on the driving conditions - or unless otherwise specified by the vehicle's manufacturer." Seems pretty clear to me which one is the best.
Last edited by timvipond
quote:
Not true. AMSOIL is the only filter that has exclusively licensed Donaldson's proprietary synthetic nanofiber media for cars, light trucks and motorcycles. Thus it is better than any other filter on the market for the combination of filtration, flow, loading capacity, longevity and up to 25,000 miles/1 year warranty.


Hmm, I've always thought of Donaldson as an industrial filter manufacturer. I think they were bought by Parker recently, or did I dream that? There's been some consolidation recently to keep Pall from becoming the 900 lb gorilla.

Regardless, the requirements of industrial filters are much different from automotive filters. Industrial applications are much cooler, but not equivalent.
Ebola -I admire your iconoclastic tendencies, but must take issue with a few points:

The days when cars lasted 50,000 - 100,000 miles ended with point ignition and twice-a-year tune-ups. Modern vehicles are just getting broken in at 100K.

Lubes are not why oil prices and supply are volatile. A 42-gallon barrel of crude typically produces about a quart of lube basestock. One of the best arguments in favor of moving away from petroleum-based fuels is to save those molecules for lubes & chemical products. A typical barrel of crude is 20% 'natural gasoline', but we tweak another 30+% into fuels. It's an amazingly valuable mineral that has a finite (if unknown) supply remaining and we're burning it for fuel? If passenger car fuels moved away from petroleum, refinery engineers would just twiddle the dials (and modify units during turnaround) to align the product mix with demand.

Otherwise, nicely done.
quote:
Originally posted by RobertC:
quote:
Originally posted by Ebolamonkey:
RobertC - Try the Chevy Volt. No oil to change in that car. Smile


Soon as they make one comparable to my Dodge 4x4 Mega cab, Got to carry everything through 10 miles of beach sand to get to the vacation house.

And besides, it'll have bearings that need greasing, or not......


But no more oil at least except maybe for the tranny. Smile
So, regarding this wondrous proprietary medium, does Donaldson supply it exclusively to Amsoil, period, or is Amsoil the only automotive marketer? Is Amsoil's exclusively use of this medium based on the fact that no one else finds this medium particularly special for automotive applications? If this stuff is that good, you'd think that Donaldson would have shopped it around to marketers with more market-share so they could sell more of it.

Donaldson isn't the only filter manufacturer with a product development function. Everyone has their own version of state-of-the-art. Some of them may be quite similar, move a methyl group along the chain or rotate an ester to a different carbon on an aromatic ring and voila - a molecule that acts in a very similar manner but is not covered by the other guy's patent.

As for extending drains though UOA monitoring:
Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. This sort of activity makes perfect sense in an industrial environment, particularly in industries like utilities steel, mining & paper, where down time is anathema. But pulling samples, shipping them off, spending money on quick-&-dirty auto-flagged analyses that can as easily mislead as illuminate when you only think you know what you're looking at? I don't see where that adds value.

I haven't seen UOA prices recently, but it used to be about a wash - the cost of the analysis ran about as much as the oil & filter, pulling a good, representative sample is only slightly less work than changing the whole charge. I just don't see the benefit.

You might impress your gearhead buddies with this UOA report on a sample that may not be representative and was possibly mis-flagged by a computer that was reading carry-over from a prior sample (very common in assembly-line style UOA testing), which you may have further mis-interpreted because you don't understand the difference between developmental, product certification and UOA testing, but I don't see where it keeps your grocery-getter on the road any longer than just changing the oil for about the same cost & effort. When you change your oil, you know the condition that same day. (It's brand-new!) You'll get the UOA report in a couple of days, and you'll know the condition of the oil after you've run three or four more samples and have gotten an idea of the trend line...

UOA testing involves cutting a lot of corners. There is a lot of bias and contamination. The data is only useful for trend analysis, no individual datum should be relied on as being remotely close to an assigned test value. I've had to peel a few customers off of the ceiling after a scary UOA report, looking in deeper than the scary red, block-lettered alert at the top, finding the anomaly, and saying: "These two data don't make sense together, it looks like carry-over, as long as the machine is running normally, submit a new sample and call me back when you get that result." Usually I'd get a relieved call back (or no call back, as they'd moved on to other issues).

It's motor oil that is going to be in the engine for months, not circulating oil that is going to be in a steam turbine for decades. Try to maintain a little perspective.
Brava!!!!!

Of course, I have an issue.

Well, not really, but you kow how it goes.

I work very hard to learn, with many resources not available to most. Well, they're available, but most aren't spending the money on them, so it's the same thing.

Most is a cheap sucker.

I sometimes see issues with carryover at my corporate lab. And they don't have a conveyor feeding the ICP, particle counter, or viscometer.

So that rings very true.

I get 2 kinds of reports. Raw data only, which is a heck of a way to learn, btw.

And results personally interpretted by folks trained personnally by one of the giants of the industry.

I don't send them car stuff though. Because it's not worth the money!

Well, except for that once when my wife decided to let a shop change her S60R's oil w out watching.

As for extending drains, yes, I'll do it in select cases. Non warranty and RULER backed, because I can do those cheap, I understand the limitations, and I am not relying on some drone to tell me what to do.

Lamont, you really ought to be patentable.

There, I just established my claim!
quote:
Originally posted by Lamont B Dumont:
So, regarding this wondrous proprietary medium, does Donaldson supply it exclusively to Amsoil, period, or is Amsoil the only automotive marketer? Is Amsoil's exclusively use of this medium based on the fact that no one else finds this medium particularly special for automotive applications? If this stuff is that good, you'd think that Donaldson would have shopped it around to marketers with more market-share so they could sell more of it.
Donaldson made an exclusive agreement with AMSOIL to provide this synthetic nanofiber filtration media for automotive, light truck and motorcycle applications.

As to why the other oil and filter companies do not make a 25,000 mile synthetic nanofiber filter, you'll have to ask them. My guess is they feel they make more money selling more 3,000 mile filters (PureOnes recommendation) than 25,000 mile filters.
Last edited by timvipond
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
Donaldson made an exclusive agreement with AMSOIL to provide this synthetic nanofiber filtration media for automotive, light truck and motorcycle applications.


Everything these days can be considered Nano which weren't Nano 10 or 20 years ago but they were the same size then as they are now being 1-100nm (nanometers). For instance Carbon Black is Carbon Black but now-a-days you can get research money if you tie in "nano" to whatever it is you want to do so instead of saying Carbon Black which everyone already knows about you put "Nano Carbon Particles."

This gimmick works in academia and unfortunately also for consumers who are not aware of such marketing schemes.

On another note please look at the following images:

(Nanofiber - Go Ches Cain! not)

(Web-like appearance with reference (length) scale)

("Nano" fiber arrangement without length scale)

("Traditional" cellulose media without length scale)

How does a bunch of lines turn into a web-like structure when the apparent size of the cellulose substrate is smaller on the lines as compared to the web-like picture? I am confused.

BTW, PureONE is #1!
http://www.bestcovery.com/puro...r-pureone-oil-filter

Smile
Last edited by ebolamonkey
quote:
Originally posted by Ebolamonkey:

Everything these days can be considered Nano which weren't Nano 10 or 20 years ago but they were the same size then as they are now being 1-100nm (nanometers). For instance Carbon Black is Carbon Black but now-a-days you can get research money if you tie in "nano" to whatever it is you want to do so instead of saying Carbon Black which everyone already knows about you put "Nano Carbon Particles."

This gimmick works in academia and unfortunately also for consumers who are not aware of such marketing schemes.

On another note please look at the following images:

(Nanofiber - Go Ches Cain! not)

(Web-like appearance with reference (length) scale)

("Nano" fiber arrangement without length scale)

("Traditional" cellulose media without length scale)

How does a bunch of lines turn into a web-like structure when the apparent size of the cellulose substrate is smaller on the lines as compared to the web-like picture? I am confused.

BTW, PureONE is #1!
http://www.bestcovery.com/puro...r-pureone-oil-filter

Smile
Yes, you seem to be confused. Look at the much smaller diameter, closer together nanofibers, compared to the much larger wide spread microfibers in the second photograph. The nanofibers would clearly filter smaller and more particles, yet allow more flow than the microfibers. That is how the AMSOIL synthetic nanofiber filters smaller particles and for up to 25,000 miles, compared to cellulose microfibers which are often recommended to be changed at 3,000 miles (such as PureONE). PureONE stands to sell up to 8 filters, whereas AMSOIL might only sell one for the same mileage.
"Yes, you seem to be confused. Look at the much smaller diameter, closer together nanofibers, compared to the much larger wide spread microfibers in the second photograph. The nanofibers would clearly filter smaller and more particles, yet allow more flow than the microfibers. That is how the AMSOIL synthetic nanofiber filters smaller particles and for up to 25,000 miles, compared to cellulose microfibers which are often recommended to be changed at 3,000 miles (such as PureONE). PureONE stands to sell up to 8 filters, whereas AMSOIL might only sell one for the same mileage."

Tim, do you mean the DONALDSON synthetic nanofiber filters that AMSOIL sells?
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
Yes, you seem to be confused. Look at the much smaller diameter, closer together nanofibers, compared to the much larger wide spread microfibers in the second photograph. The nanofibers would clearly filter smaller and more particles, yet allow more flow than the microfibers. That is how the AMSOIL synthetic nanofiber filters smaller particles and for up to 25,000 miles, compared to cellulose microfibers which are often recommended to be changed at 3,000 miles (such as PureONE). PureONE stands to sell up to 8 filters, whereas AMSOIL might only sell one for the same mileage.


If I am confused then you are delusional. If the nanomedia is that fine then how does it last 25,000 without clogging up? From what I see the whole point of having a fine web is to catch smaller particles. What happens when large particles comes along? Well since they are not smaller than the holes in the web they are caught or you can say well they somehow can be bypassed but that is stupid because the whole point of the filter is to filter and not let things get through. So then you can say well Amsoil's filter has a lot of medium but so does PureONE?

To answer some of my questions above it seems that it is a progressive filter:
http://minimopar.knizefamily.n.../reference.html#hd01

Hey look, that is another filter manufactured by Donaldson! Hmmm! Technology sharing? Noooo way If that filter is so good (HD01) then why is it discontinued? Hmmm...

Here is where you got 3,000mile change but finish the sentence:
http://www.purolatorautofilter...reoneoilfilters.aspx

"Purolator PureONE oil filters should be replaced every 3,000 miles or 3 months depending on the driving conditions - or unless otherwise specified by the vehicle's manufacturer."

Most car manuals specify 5000-7500 mile oil change interval so does that mean all of a sudden magically PureONE works twice as well? Purolator is really Bosch and being Bosch and connected with the industry do you think they can put some ridiculous oil change interval on there even though it can go up to a certain amount of miles? No. The point of the industry, this one, is to stay in business and sell more filters and the point of Amsoil's market scheme is to steal customers away from the former but still attempting to make a pretty penny in the process and the ever lower margin of profit.

Just because Amsoil says I can do 25,000miles or 1 year which ever comes first no problem I can all of a sudden trust that for ANY given gasoline car driven at ANY given conditions in ANY driving style be it a turbo/super/combined charged car or the Honda CR-X? Just because PureONE tells me to change 3,000 then I read my car manual and it says 7500 or maybe even 10,000 miles that should then change at those intervals? You've got to be kidding me. What if a driver feels like only doing 3,000miles a year on the EaO? Should we change filters then (funny because it's at 3000miles) or keep driving? If so then EaO just became the victim of your own rampage against the marketing claims of other filters.
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
quote:
Originally posted by Ebolamonkey:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
Yes, you seem to be confused. Look at the much smaller diameter, closer together nanofibers, compared to the much larger wide spread microfibers in the second photograph. The nanofibers would clearly filter smaller and more particles, yet allow more flow than the microfibers. That is how the AMSOIL synthetic nanofiber filters smaller particles and for up to 25,000 miles, compared to cellulose microfibers which are often recommended to be changed at 3,000 miles (such as PureONE). PureONE stands to sell up to 8 filters, whereas AMSOIL might only sell one for the same mileage.


If I am confused then you are delusional. If the nanomedia is that fine then how does it last 25,000 without clogging up? From what I see the whole point of having a fine web is to catch smaller particles. What happens when large particles comes along? Well since they are not smaller than the holes in the web they are caught or you can say well they somehow can be bypassed but that is stupid because the whole point of the filter is to filter and not let things get through. So then you can say well Amsoil's filter has a lot of medium but so does PureONE?
. You still seem to be confused. The larger particles just sit on top of the nanofibers and still allows oil flow around it into the many pores available.

quote:

Just because Amsoil says I can do 25,000miles or 1 year which ever comes first no problem I can all of a sudden trust that for ANY given gasoline car driven at ANY given conditions in ANY driving style be it a turbo/super/combined charged car or the Honda CR-X? Just because PureONE tells me to change 3,000 then I read my car manual and it says 7500 or maybe even 10,000 miles that should then change at those intervals? You've got to be kidding me. What if a driver feels like only doing 3,000miles a year on the EaO? Should we change filters then (funny because it's at 3000miles) or keep driving? If so then EaO just became the victim of your own rampage against the marketing claims of other filters.
AMSOIL says: "Service Life
AMSOIL Ea Oil Filters are guaranteed for 25,000 miles or one year, whichever comes first, when used in conjunction with AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oil. AMSOIL recommends changing the oil filter at the time of oil change.

If used in conjunction with AMSOIL Motor Oil that is being changed at intervals less than 25,000 miles, the EaO Filter should be changed at the same time. AMSOIL EaO Filters are not guaranteed for 25,000 miles when used with any oil other than AMSOIL Motor Oil and should be changed according to vehicle OEM recommendations."

For AMSOIL's motor oil:

"SERVICE LIFE
AMSOIL Synthetic 0W-20 Motor Oil is recommended for extended drain intervals in unmodified(1), mechanically sound(2) gasoline-fueled vehicles as follows:

• Normal Service(3) – Up to 25,000 miles or one year, whichever comes first.

• Severe Service(4) – Up to 15,000 miles or one year, whichever comes first.

• Replace AMSOIL Ea Oil Filter at the time of oil change, up to 25,000 miles or one year service life, whichever comes first (other brands at standard OEM* intervals).

• In all non-gasoline fueled vehicle applications, extend the oil change interval according to oil analysis or follow the OEM* drain interval.

*OEM – Original Equipment Manufacturer

(1) Engines operating under modified conditions are excluded from extended drain recommendations. Examples include the use of performance computer chips; non-OEM approved exhaust, fuel or air induction systems; and the use of fuels other than those recommended for normal operation by the manufacturer.

(2) Mechanically sound engines are in good working condition and do not, for example, leak oil or consume excessive amounts, are not worn out, do not overheat, do not leak anti-freeze and have properly working emission control systems. AMSOIL recommends repairing malfunctioning engines prior to the installation of AMSOIL synthetic oils.

(3) Personal vehicles frequently traveling greater than 10 miles (16 km) at a time and not operating under severe service.

(4) Turbo or supercharged vehicles, commercial or fleet vehicles, excessive engine idling, first and subsequent use of AMSOIL in vehicles with over 100,000 miles, daily short trip driving less than 10 miles (16k), frequent towing, plowing, hauling or dusty condition
driving."
Last edited by timvipond

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