Best additive used in the market....why?

The more that I keep reading these forums, the more it just keeps reinforcing that aftermarket oil additives are a bad idea.

Everybody tells me to start off with a quality oil that you would like to use, a good quality aftermarket filter, a reasonable OCI if you don't plan on doing a UOA on the oil, and be happy in ignorance at the lines and lines of useless chemicals on that oil additive shelf in the auto parts store.

This formula has worked for me, and I have asked about oil additives and fuel additives myself. They just seem to be pouring more money into something that has been researched and tested already for us, and by using them has the potential for offsetting a balance that, while it won't kill the engine, will actually shorten the useable life of the oil that you are using.

Stay away...stay far far away...

I have heard that additives are a waste as well, but it seems to me that more and more in the industrial market large companies have a great need to save fuel consumption, extend maintainance, and reduce wear metals so that the equipment does actually last longer. They are the ones with the money to be able to test these "new" products. This need to save is becoming more and more of a necessity due to the constant rise in fuel prices and there has to be some sort of breakthrough technology that the oil companies can't buy out and suppress because the potential to make the money from the consumers is begining to balance out or outweigh what the oil companies can pay them for their technology. Not all of business is driven by greed and a desire to make money. I believe there are people still existing who want to save the consumer more money on the bottom line and in some small way stick it to big corporate america by taking money away from those monopolies. Lets face facts, one way would be by having an additive that actually works and does what it claims. Even though it is a "snake oil" market, and people generally look at anything in the arena as such, there has to be some sort of breakthrough at some point, wouldn't you agree? Maybe this XenTx is one. It certainly doesn't look like the wheel being re-invented like many of the other products in existence today. Has anyone done any independent tests on it they are willing to share, or any other info?

I vote Valvoline Synpower Oil Treatment (15 oz platinum color bottle) one of the best. I had a new oil analysis done on it this March (Butler Catapillar Lab, Bismark ND). Anything less than 10 ppm is ignored:

Elemental Analysis (ppm)
Alum: 34
Sodium: 23
Moly: 2324
Boron: 1046
Calcium: 1050
Magnesium: 968
Phosphorus: 1792
Zinc: 1740

Viscosity cSt @ 100C: 74.6.0

Note the viscosity. This will boost the viscosity of your oil. Some use only an ounce per quart of oil, but the instructions are the whole bottle in one crankcase of oil. One user has consistently found lower iron in used oil analysis with this add at 1 oz per qt.

Another excellent additive (and I will add in all likelihood far better than the additive posted above), in the words of it's creator:

quote:

We had a request to see the elemental analysis for SX-UP from Specialty Formulations. The elements reported are averaged over 5 different lab reports and rounded.

Please recognize that there is more to SX-UP than just these elements. As per our PDS, we also use many ashless organic compounds (not shown on elemental analysis, of course) and agents such as rust inhibitors, Friction Modifiers, Anti-Oxidants, viscosity index improvers, surfactants, metal deactivators for copper (copper corrosion inhibitors), detergents, dispersants, etc. The base oils are PAO's and esters ("Quad-Esters").

Anything less than 10 ppm was ignored.


Molybdenum - 1400 ppm (Friction Reduction, AW, AO)
Boron - 500 ppm (AW, FM)
Tin - 12 (AW)
Phosphorus - 1500 (AW)
Zinc - 2900 (AW)
Calcium - 4200 (Detergent, AW, FM)
Magnesium - 250 (Detergent)

TBN 19.3

KV @100 C - 16.5

This product was originally developed for engine oils in muscle and classic cars from approx. 1955 to about 1980 in order to boost the additive levels of current SF/SH oils to approx. API SD equivalent AW status. The original SD oils had ZDDP levels approximately equivalent to today's HDEO oils.

If using RL then moly and Zinc are already high.

SpeedoMan,

One needs look at these additives with a cost vs performance attitude .

In cost vs performance there are true synthetics out there that will smoke any DOPED mineral based oil . That said , it's costly to dope the few really good synthetics with anything . If your synthetic needs doping ,pick another brand
I don't know what that product you speak about in the link is but the Valvoline additive above does lower Fe in analysis when used with many OTC mineral oils . It also can help better fuel economy and bump the TBN at only 1 ounce per quart without unwanted thickening of the oil . Most engines can be treated 3 times with one 15 ounce bottle " 30-35 cents per ounce " .


But , show me a better additive at same or lower cost in this cost vs performance deal I speak of and I'll listen but at the present time I don't know of any new additives that can beat using a good choice of motor oil and maintenance intervals based on type oil used .

TallPaul, I have another angle of that product that you mention from Specialty Formulations: would it be possible to add that to a very high quality 10w40 oil, and get the additive package up to the snuff of the additive package of 15w40 weight diesel oils.

I ask this because I found a very good synthetic based oil, but is in 10w40 weight, and was wanting to use this oil for winter in my 5.9 Cummins diesel engine. Yes, I know that there are very good 15w40 oils already, but I was looking for just a little thinner, but not detrimentally so, and the HT/HS of the oil in question is very high, making it very much in the commercial engine requirement range, but I am concerned about the wear/detergent package, hence why I ask if this would work.

Or should a rethinking be required of me?

Not sure the SX-UP is going to give you ALL the attributes of an HDEO, but may come close. If the oil you plan to use already meets the minimum requirement for light duty diesel, then I think you would be fine.

I want to throw out another additive, that looks very good. It's Powerservice Diesel Lube Oil Extender. A recent new oil analysis showed
Calcium: 6281 ppm
Magnesium:736 ppm
Phosphorus: 3548 ppm
Zinc: 3357 ppm

Best of all, it only has a viscosity of 20 cSt at 100C, so it won't appreciably thicken your oil. And the other good part, only $19 for a 3 quart jug at Walmart.

The Valvoline Premium Blue Extreme 5w-40 w/o any additional additives makes financial sense here .
Here's a TSB for you .
http://dodgeram.info/tsb/2001/09-003-01.htm

quote:

Originally posted by Dad2leia:
TallPaul, I have another angle of that product that you mention from Specialty Formulations: would it be possible to add that to a very high quality 10w40 oil, and get the additive package up to the snuff of the additive package of 15w40 weight diesel oils.

I ask this because I found a very good synthetic based oil, but is in 10w40 weight, and was wanting to use this oil for winter in my 5.9 Cummins diesel engine. Yes, I know that there are very good 15w40 oils already, but I was looking for just a little thinner, but not detrimentally so, and the HT/HS of the oil in question is very high, making it very much in the commercial engine requirement range, but I am concerned about the wear/detergent package, hence why I ask if this would work.

Or should a rethinking be required of me?

What do you want to do with an additive? There are some useful ones, and a lot of other ones. Is there something your gas or oil needs?

All of you guys who makes complain in additive in oil i want you to know that there is already an oil additive that is one of a kind oil its called Engine Protector(EP)try using this and tell me if that doesnt work on your engine...This is the World first Alkalined based oil no one else in the market today...for your order pls contact me dex_6000@yahoo.com
Beats all Highly super synthetic oil in the market....

Well , I will not email you or even google your product , but will read more information about what your selling if you post here .

quote:

Originally posted by Dexies:
All of you guys who makes complain in additive in oil i want you to know that there is already an oil additive that is one of a kind oil its called Engine Protector(EP)try using this and tell me if that doesnt work on your engine...This is the World first Alkalined based oil no one else in the market today...for your order pls contact me dex_6000@yahoo.com
Beats all Highly super synthetic oil in the market....

LOL

bruce

Does it beat ordinary low life synthetic oil, too? Tell us more. Or, like the song asks, is that all there is?

...would an alkaline based oil fight with a PAO or POE based oil?

Chlorinated alkanes work well as EP or anti scuff but under heat break down and form HCL acid NOT good even when inhibited as they say good as a cutting oil but with low TBN oils a corroison problem. Bye the way Chlor additives have been used in heavy locomotive oil for years BUT that oil is monitored for acid and TBN depletion on a routine bassis somethjing most people will not do and as such with the oil killinmg effect of acids formed by the chlor additive IMHO it is not suited for normal PCMO use.
bruce

I have to wonder how long it would take of constant use of some of these shelf additives for evidence of bore polishing and other non-repairable damage to crop up .... if it's going to .

I'm not certain analysis can tell if the dispersant is being jacked with as just one example . Not additive related but I have seen an analysis of oil that looked fairly good then the oil pan was dropped and the bearings was coming apart .

Can anyone else name off any tell-tale signs of potential harm from long term use . Burning oil would come fairly gradual and same for seals leaking so I'd presume at times those might simply be laid off to age and miles ?

Thoughts ?

motorbike, I'm not doubting your knowledge or experience but I do question your understanding of the benefits and requirements of a regular oil sampling program. I've managed the service dept for a heavy equipment dealership for approx 5 years and we encouraged regular oil sampling.

A single oil sample is sort of like seeing one still frame of a movie and trying to figure out the plot from it. Oil sampling is a trending tool and should be used to track ongoing levels of wear metals and contaminants. You could view one lab report on a new engine's break- in oil and be convinced that not only was the wrong oil being used, but that the engine was about to have a catastrophic failure.

If you got a lab report on oil that showed it to be fine and then dropped the pan and found bearings coming apart you either need a new lab, need to learn the proper procedure to obtain an oil sample (when and where to draw it from, identify the system the oil came from, identify the type of fluid it is, etc).

The lab doesn't have a magic bullet analysis. They need to know what kind of lubricant you've sent them, whether it came from an engine, trans, transfer case, diff, etc and then they test for specific contaminants and wear metals associated with that fluid and type of system.

Again, my intention is not to belittle you, only to clarify that oil sampling is a lab process and unless samples are switched or they've received insufficient or incorrect information, isn't going to miss significant enough levels of wear metal to "not catch" bearings coming apart.

quote:

Originally posted by Motorbike:
...In cost vs performance there are true synthetics out there that will smoke any DOPED mineral based oil . That said , it's costly to dope the few really good synthetics with anything . If your synthetic needs doping ,pick another brand....

Absolutely true! End of story!

The market has plenty of offerings to the general public when it comes to oils and additives for our favorite set of wheels.

My personal favorite is from Lucas Oil. the Lucas Oil Stabilizer was originally marketed years ago under the "Morey's" brand name. Forrest Lucas was an over-the-road trucker and high performance car enthusiast who recognized the need for premium products in these areas. Forrest Lucas was instrumental in the development of the Morey's Heavy Duty Oil Stabilizer and in 1989 formed the Lucas Oil Company to market his products. I have had enough faith in the use of his products that I formed a company, Newark Distributing, www.newarkdistributing.com, with my cattle ranch partner to market these products myself.

As far as the technical aspects go, I am not a mechanic or a technician. I am a pleased consumer who wholly believes in the Lucas Products. I have the direct phone line to the head Lucas chemist to provide this type of information to any who desire this. I will provide the links to the Lucas Stabilizer below to help those that want more info.

http://www.lucasoil.com/images/medialibrary/hd_oil_stabilizer.pdf

http://www.lucasoil.com/images/medialibrary/product_msds-8.pdf

http://www.lucasoil.com/

A final thought not pertaining to this forum is that in 2008 the 2007 Super Bowl Champions, the Indianapolis Colts, will start play in the Lucas Oil Stadium. They are a "Well oiled machine in their own right."

Enjoy...

tbas ,

You seem sincere and I'll leave it at that . I don't have time to discuss photos concerning same removed from a site and more , to include posting my own photos of bearings and jpg's of analysis or desire to discuss even the analysis's themselve's .

Take care , i'm sure you can be of assistance to others here .

data accumulated at oil and additivesand click on the currently open articles. More will be available after the November 2007 Avanti magazine has sold out.

quote:

Originally posted by TallPaul:
I vote Valvoline Synpower Oil Treatment (15 oz platinum color bottle) one of the best. I had a new oil analysis done on it this March (Butler Catapillar Lab, Bismark ND). Anything less than 10 ppm is ignored:

Elemental Analysis (ppm)
Alum: 34
Sodium: 23
Moly: 2324
Boron: 1046
Calcium: 1050
Magnesium: 968
Phosphorus: 1792
Zinc: 1740

Viscosity cSt @ 100C: 74.6.0

Note the viscosity. This will boost the viscosity of your oil. Some use only an ounce per quart of oil, but the instructions are the whole bottle in one crankcase of oil. One user has consistently found lower iron in used oil analysis with this add at 1 oz per qt.

quote:

Originally posted by TallPaul:
Not sure the SX-UP is going to give you ALL the attributes of an HDEO, but may come close. If the oil you plan to use already meets the minimum requirement for light duty diesel, then I think you would be fine.

I want to throw out another additive, that looks very good. It's Powerservice Diesel Lube Oil Extender. A recent new oil analysis showed
Calcium: 6281 ppm
Magnesium:736 ppm
Phosphorus: 3548 ppm
Zinc: 3357 ppm

Best of all, it only has a viscosity of 20 cSt at 100C, so it won't appreciably thicken your oil. And the other good part, only $19 for a 3 quart jug at Walmart.

I think they stopped making that stuff, I found a quart on th clearance rack at a local tractor supply place. I tried to research it on their site, but couldnt find it.

How about XADO. Found this link http://www.xado.co.uk seems to be rated by customers, though not technically described as an additive.

Many consider anything you pour into your crankcase, other than oil, an additive. The makers of these products think in terms of additives (suppliments) or treatments. With an additive you need to continue to use the product in order to retain the benefit. With treatments the benefits are longer lasting, although they too may need to be suplimented from time to time.

Ive used lucas pure synthetic additive for years. That's the only product that they make that I do use. Its the only one that wont degrade the delvac one 5-40 that i use in my trucks. The thickeners are band aids that can make pressure problems worse,and mask the real problem depending on the cause. I have found some interesting stuff that i can hardly wait to get hold of when my budget will allow. http://www.apnano.com/
The testing that has been done to date in gear applications is impressive. The only engine additive using this substance is available in Israel.

Aftermarket additives are essential because all of those PhD's & MSE's formulating engine oils in multimillion dollar laboratories equipped with a vast array of bench, stationary and fleet testing options don't have the first clue what to put into a engine oil. After all, these guys have dedicated years to the study and practice of lube formulations and as such are absolutely incompetent. They obviously need some guy in a garage to determine what they've left out.

Or maybe not.

Early on in my career, the notion of "balanced formulation" was beaten through my thick skull. Lube additives are generally like drugs - they have beneficial primary effects and negative side effects. Some additives, like antioxidants and demulsifiers, can actually have the reverse effect at excessively high treat rates.

When you start dumping in aftermarket additives, particuarly when they have such nebulous descriptions as "stabilizer", do you know what function you are boosting and what other functions may be impaired? (Just what are we stabilizing here, oxidation, viscosity, deposit-forming tendencies? It matters. More importantly, what are we harming?)

Did you spend extra for a GF-4 or 5 oil? Well, the extra phosphorus in most of those additives is going to bump you oil out of that category. That means you'll be replacing you cataclysmic perverter sooner than you'd like.

Maybe if there were a legitimate need for that extra stuff, there would be an oil on the market that already has it. Such an oil would also have been pulled though the "balanced formulation" knothole, ensuring that none of the "solutions" brought along problems of a greater magnitude.

Well said Lamont

Bravo to Lamont.