interpreting information

Go to http://www.bobistheoilguy.com and search on "Redline". Most controversial oil I can think of. Shows lousy UOA's. I'm not sure RL's street oils are all that great. Their reputation is based on their low viscosity racing oils. That is the market they do well in.

Buster,

I read through several threads on BITOG after searching "redline" as a subject. (Thanks for informing me of that forum.) It seemed like you were enthusiastic about Redline in most cases there, though not so much as others. Not trying to bust your chops at all, but could you elaborate what you mean by saying it's controversial?

The one thing I did see that gave me pause there was a passing, indirect statement about Redline "reacting" with Honda bearings. Any thoughts on that, anybody? I have put it in my '03 Honda, so all information on be appreciated.

Thanks

The engineers who designed and built you Honda and 1,000,000's of others just like it know far more about their drivetrain and the correct lubricants for your specific application than anyone at Redline or at Blob.

If you simply read your owners manual and use the oils the Honda engineers recommend and change them according to their recommended intervals based on your severity of service, chances are your new Honda will have no problems going 300,000 miles and beyond. Spend your extra pocket change elsewhere.

The exception being if you regularly operate in severe conditions, where cold cranking (below at least 0°F) temperatures are a common condition. There, the synthetic oils do help.

IMO, oil analysis (at least the ICP tests so popular now) are a waste of money for the standard motorist as are the aftermarket additives which are now also popular among a relatively uneducated few. You'll get a lot of heated argument/opinion on this, but no hard data that proves otherwise.


Chumley

Your points are all very well taken. I would guess that many people, particularly the "relatively uneducated few" like myself, obsess about oil to an extent not warranted by the vehicles we drive. However, the owner's manual does say that synthetics are acceptable, but gives no detail at all beyond that.

So, allow me to rephrase the original question:

Assuming hypothetically, just for the sake of argument, that good synthetics are better in some way than conventional oils, are there any specific reasons NOT to use Redline, other than the cost?

If the answer to that is "no," then the next step would be to the meat of the matter, which of course is substantiating the claims Redline and others make that their oils are better than dinos. (And bear in mind that it can get awfully hot in Georgia, which may justify the extra protection if indeed there is such.)

I do appreciate all input so far.

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=012378

Do you have a link to Honda bearing issue

Here is what I was refering to:

"Redline reacts quite aggressively towards the softer bearing overlay materials used by some manufacturers such as Honda. This effect normally dissipates with long term use of the product, so I'm not terribly concerned about it. Honda motorcycles don't exhibit this chemical reaction and I suspect they use a different type of metallurgy than the car engines....

The harder (Pb/Sn/Ni) bearings used by Toyota and most German manufacturers aren't affected by the RL chemistry. This is very obvious when looking at the UOA's that have been posted over the past several years.

TS"

Here is the link to the thread. If it doesn't work, I found it again by searchin "Honda bearings Redline" in "entire message."
https://forums.noria.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/616604995/m/9751086521

Sorry, that was the wrong link. Here it is:

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=...;f=1;t=010593#000008

Could tie into this butspeculation

at another corner of Honda's Wako R&D Center, a group of advanced engine designers and engineers were striving to get another engine to combine high-rpm power and reliability under very demanding operating conditions–Formula One racing. Lack of reliability had for some time been plaguing the naturally aspirated, 3.5-L, V12 engine.

To remedy the problem, a team of Honda metallurgists/engineers created a highly seizure-resistant overlay on the bearing's sliding surface using a unique electrodepositing of tetra-methyl lead, Pb (h00). The highly oriented Pb surface has a composition of myriad minuscule pyramids, which possesses outstanding "wettability" or lubricant-retaining properties. Honda claims it has given a 30% or higher increase in the anti-seizure parameter, PV, than a surface with conventional deposits.

quote:

Assuming hypothetically, just for the sake of argument, that good synthetics are better in some way than conventional oils, are there any specific reasons NOT to use Redline, other than the cost?

Most all of the synthetic oils manufactured today are of excellent quality, however many do not meet the API, JASO, or ECEA specifications (for good reasons) which are called out in your owners manual. It's a commonly accepted myth promoted by oil industry marketing that because oil is for racing, aircraft jet engines, or any other high performance application that it is suitable for everyday use in your Honda. Often it's simply not true since the oil additive packages can and do vary widely based on the lubricants intended application.

Racing oils, for example, may provide excellent protection (at $8.00 a quart or more) but many are only intended for very short term use (one race) before they are changed out. Many racing oils may, in fact, perform substantially worse than the factory approved lubricants over the (7500-15,000 miles for example) standard automotive oil change intervals. Other synthetics which are sold through multi-level marketing plans may also be of excellent quality, but other competitive products are usually available <locally> at considerably less cost since you don't have to pay the hefty Multi-Level Marketing "sales commission" which is built into the M-LM price if you buy correctly specified lubricants at a local jobber or bulk/retail outlet. Your choice.

With that in mind, any recently/currently manufactured oil, either dino or synthetic will easily meet the needs of the standard motorist as long as it states on the container that it meets the specifications called for in your owners manual. Everybody has their favorite products, but for the most part, the long term differences between most lubrication products are indistinguishable for the standard motorist in any real world tests. As I said before, you'll always get lots of heated opinion/argument on this, but, rarely any well documented facts that prove otherwise.

The engineers who designed and built built your Honda know what they are doing. If you don't think they do and doubt their specifications, I suggest you try building a better vehicle. After you've designed and built built your first 100,000, please write back, gladly we'll talk further.

Chumley

I get your point. And I don't doubt Honda's engineers. Like I said, I'm not a chemist (or engineer), which is why I came here for help sorting through all the information and pervasive marketing chimeras out there. It just seemed to me that the manual might list minimum requirements, as for example it does for the gasoline (Min. 86 octane), which would imply that better wouldn't hurt. (Nobody sells less than 87 oct. around here anyway.) Of course gas and oil two are two different discussions; just using that to make a more general point.

Having said that, Redline does NOT in fact display the API emblem on their bottles. Instead, it says "recommended for API ...." And they state the API applications for their different street oils on their website:
http://www.redlineoil.com/pdf/4.pdf

I assume (chagrined) that means they are not API certified. Does that also mean necessarily that they do not meet the API specifications, even though they list those specifications? How would one find out? (Presumably not from Redline.) Or if they DO meet the specifications, why wouldn't they be certified? And why are so many people so enthusastic about their street oils? Just ignorance and a strong racing reputation, as Buster implied? Stranger things have occured....

You've definitely pointed out reasons for skepticism, which is helpful.

Correct , Redline oils do not have the API donut on their bottles . Is that a bad thing ? I certainly don't think so and evidently Redline don't think it's such a bad idea to NOT beat to the drum of the API and ISLAC either while paying money for the donut to boot . Maybe they think they can build a better oil that way .

The API , ISLAC or both upped the average cam and lifter wear allowance of the GM dyno mule engine from 20 μm maximum for the SL 30wts to 60 μm maximum for the SM-GF-4 30wts .

Sequence IIIF

Sequence IIIG


But thats beside the point


What was the topic ?

The "controversial" part of RL I was referring to was the basestock and whether it's not good at dealing with water. Among all the oil analysis results on bobistheoilguy.com, RL has been by far the most disappointing. Now on the other hand, some will say that due to RL's high Ester content, it scavenges and holds more metals/sludge etc. in suspension giving you the impression that wear is higher. That is a theory and even until this day I do not know what to think about RL. I beat up on RL quite a bit at BITOG as Motorbike will tell you. LOL. I'd like to think RL is great oil, but I'm still on the fence with it after 3 years of following this stuff.

I've read some interesting articles about how some esters compete with anti-wear additives on the surface and show more wear. In Race Car Engineering magazine, they did an article on lubricants. Shell actually makes some racing lubricants with Group III/IV blends. Additives are such a huge part of the equation and while RL might have a great basestock, I'm not so sure it's ideal in all situations.

Thanks dudes. I stuck my neck out hoping to get a little bit beat up, to help see what I otherwise wouldn't have. Mission accomplished. Now I'm with Buster on the fence, which is quite alright.

Out of interest I checked Castrol UK site for oil recommendation.


http://www.castrol.com/castrol/castrolhomepage.do?categ...lobalcountryselector

The answer appears to be 0W40.

Would you get 3x less cam wear with this oil?

quote:

The API , ISLAC or both upped the average cam and lifter wear allowance of the GM dyno mule engine from 20 μm maximum for the SL 30wts to 60 μm maximum for the SM-GF-4 30wts .

Wow! That is astounding. So it appears that engine wear is the sacrifical lamb to "mother earth." I bet the low zddp is the main culprit. Sort of like when the schools show better overall student performance by lowering the standards.

Geez. This is enough to make one wonder whether businesses should have free speech rights, as they've used that freedom to make it all but impossible for most people to make reasonably informed judgments about their products without taking advanced chemistry and engineering courses.

TallPaul, if your analogy works, then there is indeed reason to worry. As a public high school English teacher I definitely share your concern with lowered standards. By the time many lower level students get to me, they are already so far behind that it is all I can do to get them to respond intelligently to the local newspaper. But I can assure you that politicians and business leaders who think they know better are making the problem far, far worse.

Back to oil, if API and ILSAC standards are suspect, will some manufacturers start making more specific recommendations? I noticed a thread here about a new VW specification, for example. Anybody know of others, and what the specific reasons were for those changes?

Tallpaul

The UK have the same problem re lowering exam standards, perhaps we are lucky not being CAFE driven, although AEHaas continues with the thin is better although RL 5W20 is not exactly "thin" with HTHS of 3.3.

The Penrite oil site is worth a visit as they go for thick is better.

For the record,Redlines "race" oils lack detergents. Detergents themselves have no lubricating ability, so for short term racing use where oil will be changed every race, it is far better to run without them (just plain better protection). Their race oils are also not multi-vis, so no viscosity index improvers in there to mess things up either (again, better protection). These oils have naturally high viscosity indexes anyway, so it's no big deal on a racing engine that will be carefully warmed up, driven once, then have its oil changed. "Race" oils are however, not suitable for everyday use.

Got to say that I am a long time Redline user. Sorry, no horror stories to tell! My engines last forever, and a day. Same with my 15 or so quads and dirt bikes. I have run Maxima Extra or Ultra (also ester synthetics) for years, with no issues.

I have heard that of Redline's street oils, only the 5w40 has any viscosity index improvers added. All the rest have a high enough viscosity index to meet the multigrade criteria. That is another benefit of the Group V ester formulation.

Yeah, and Redline has loads of ZDDP and moly.

Here's a uoa for my Civic at 375k miles with Red Line oil. I was using 10w-40 because of oil consumption and with the 10w-40 is was less than 1/2 quart per 5k miles. The viscosity has stepped through 5w-30, 10w-30, then the 10w-40 thru the years. The head has never been off and no major repair work other than a camshaft and valve seals at 200K+ miles becuse of one bad lobe, the other lobes were in perfect condition. I check the valves every 30k miles, now (was 15k) because they just don't need to be adjusted much. I'm very picky about the adjustment and they have never been more than a couple of thou's off. If this is a terrible uoa, I'll take it. This car is 21 years old, driven all the time and gets 37-40 mpg and runs great. The compression is right on new car specs and it passes California smog every two years. So, if Red Line is no good for everyone else, it's good enough for me.

Alum 3
Chrom 1
Iron 8
Copper 7
Lead 6
Tin 1
Moly 415
Nickel 0
Manganese 0
Silver 0
Titanium 0
Potassium 10 usual with RL
Boron 29
Silicon 7
Sodium 22 usual with RL
Calcium 2423
Magnesium 10
Phosphorus 1002
Zinc 1016
Barium 0
Flash 425
Fuel <0.5
A/F 0.0
Water 0.0
Insolubles 0.4
TBN 4.5
6,105 miles on oil sample

UOA looks pretty good to me, other than zddp seems to have depleted quite a bit considering it is around 1500 ppm (IIRC) in the new Redline.

quote:

This car is 21 years old, driven all the time and gets 37-40 mpg and runs great. The compression is right on new car specs and it passes California smog every two years. So, if Red Line is no good for everyone else, it's good enough for me.

That's fine and I mean that. But, the engineer in me has to ask the question, "How many similar vehicles are out there that can make similar claims while using good ol' $1.00 a quart (or less) dino oil (that meets the vehicle specifications) changed regularly?" You have no idea since your data base is only one car, . . . YOURS!

I don't get promoted and/or establish a good reputation at my job in my industry by providing the most expensive answer that solves the problem long term, just the opposite.

Chumley

I actually agree with your statement that one dollar a quart oil might do just as well. I just don't know of one. An indicator that I am going by for wear, is not the uoa, but valve adjustments. I used to check the clearances every 15k miles, but for years its been 30k miles. I can't remember the last time a valve was off more than a thou or two, and I'm picky. I did a double Auto-RX cycle and the filter, on the rinse cycle picked up hardly any crud. This engine is extremely clean inside and I don't know if I'd get that with dyno oil. I know is popular to take shots at Red Line, especially the price, but for me, it is doing the job just fine. Maybe we can answer your questions about long term performance in another 10 years. Right now, it's too soon.

That's funny. In 1982 I bought an 82 Audi Coupe with the 2.14 Liter 5 cyl OHC WE engine and a manual 5 speed transmission. It had solid lifters and the service manual suggested (under normal service) that I change the oil (using API SE grade) every 7500 miles, the oil filter every 15,000 and adjust the valves every 30,000. For the next 14 years (along with all the improvements in oil quality) I changed the oil every 5,000 miles using standard dino oil that meets the current specifications (which are better than those called out in the owners manual), the oil filter every 10,000. (Of course it was a stock vehicle unmodified from the day it was built) Well, after driving the car 90,000 miles and wasting several valve cover gaskets (at 30,000 mile intervals) without making a single valve adjustment, I figured I was doing something right, and stopped checking the valve clearance which never needed any adjustment from day one. At 210,000 miles I sold the car (there was no sludge anywhere in the engine and it didn't burn any oil) which still met it's initial fuel mileage specs and met the local emission standards to my neighbor who later moved and I have no further history about the vehicle. It's just one car, but as an engineer myself I can tell you that the those at Audi who engineered that car were pretty conservative, as long as you keep up on the maintenance. IMO, those who whine about sludged up engines are like the obese guys who swear that they don't eat too much while insisting that they regurlarly work out. Please, . . . it's insulting to those of us who know better. Call the local news media, they're the only ones dumb enough to listen. My next Audi is currently doing better than the last one.

And I didn't spend a penny on oil analysis or synthetic oil, nor do I intend to. Nice try Molafool and Barry Liesome.

Of course, if my owners manual suggested that I should use synthetic oil, I would at a moments notice. But it would only be lubricants that clearly meet my specific vehicle specifications. It's your choice, you decide! If you know more about the vehicle you bought/drive than those who designed and built it, well, . . . we will all wonder why you did that and eagerly await you latest product.

Chumley

Do we have to play childish games with peoples names? Why don't you go to BITOG and debate these fellows directly instead of smearing them on other sites.

The 5-cylinder Audi has hydraulic lifters..... I owned an 84 4000S Quattro. The best driving piece of junk in the world. That car ate water pumps, alternators, batteries and allignments. It was carefully maintained and was too much trouble to keep, typical Audi of those years. It handled well, had great breaks and blew the fuel pump fuses as quick as I could replace them until I rewired the circuit. You're right about the engine lasting a long time, those cars couldn't run long enough to wear out.

It seems to me that the whole purpose of a site like this is twofold: 1. for knowledgeable people to have intelligent debates and exchange information and ideas, and 2. for the intellectually and pragmatically curious like myself to learn as much as we can from those who know more than we do.

Chumley, you have made the same point, and it is a very good point, in three separate posts in this thread, with an increasingly condescending tone. I'm sure we all understood you very well the first time. There is no logical contradiction between agreeing with you and still searching for more and possibly better answers. And TallPaul is right about the names. If you think somebody is wrong, then cite and explain, as an engineer, specific points of contention; that is all that is necessary.

quote:

Originally posted by TallPaul:
Do we have to play childish games with peoples names? Why don't you go to BITOG and debate these fellows directly instead of smearing them on other sites.

I would be thrilled to do that, however, for whatever their reasons, I was banned from posting there. Imagine that? America, the country of free speach? You really think so? Well, that's not the case if you post at BLOB. Whenever their self appointed experts disagree with you and they think you hinder their agenda or that of their advertisers, they ban you. Get a grip on reality. Of course, if you are as dumb as dirt, you've got lifetime membership at BLOB. (you do)

What I did isn't childish. (that's just the dumb guy take) It's actually very smart. I did what I did so my comments won't regularly show up on the common search engines. That way, I can avoid/minimize having future oil discussions with people like you, Smaulpaul AKA, Mr. Oil Minimumoligist.

Chumley

quote:

Originally posted by Barkerman:
The 5-cylinder Audi has hydraulic lifters..... I owned an 84 4000S Quattro. The best driving piece of junk in the world. That car ate water pumps, alternators, batteries and allignments. It was carefully maintained and was too much trouble to keep, typical Audi of those years. It handled well, had great breaks and blew the fuel pump fuses as quick as I could replace them until I rewired the circuit. You're right about the engine lasting a long time, those cars couldn't run long enough to wear out.

Thats funny, since I had a similar car, it wasn't my experience at all. The person you sold it to is probably still driving it, unless they got in a serious accident. In which case it probably saved their life! Chances are you're just too ignorant/cheap to own, drive, maintain, and appreciate a German car.

My suggestion: buy a Toyota, or the current US generated junk pile. Ford and GM are currently losing money and selling their products at below cost while closing plants and laying off workers. Give 'em a hand! AudiAG is currently making money, isn't offering rebates, and has a 6-12 week (depending on the model ordered) customer waiting list.

Passing a course in business/grammar/spelling might help you too!

Chumley

Chumley, you stated, "Chances are you're just too ignorant/cheap to own, drive, maintain, and appreciate a German car."

Don't you realize that you've just given an implicit argument for the contention that German cars are not well engineered? (Which seems at least prima facie to be a ridiculous idea.)

Either 1) you're right, but thus have thrown your own engineering expertise into question by insisting that they'll last forever, or 2) you're wrong, and thus have thrown your engineering expertise into question by insisting that their real quality lies in some otherworldly aura of Germanness that exists apart from their engineering.

Perhaps YOU would benefit from a course or two in critical, syntactical, and semantic reasoning.

It seems to me that you were booted from BITOG not because they disagreed with you but because you are an aggressive, condescending jerk. This is like giving a disciplinary lecture to one of my unruly high-schoolers. I'm through with you.

Thanks very much to everyone who was willing to help and give advice to one who realizes how much he has to learn.

Chumley, I'm happy that you had good luck with your Audi. Mine was not so good. I wish you were around, then, to help me with my Audi. I know, now , through your explination that is was all my fault and I'm too stupid to own a fine German car. I had my chance and blew it. I'm stuck with the Honda that I bought that same year, 1984, and still drive, every day. I often say to myself, when driving the Honda, that I wish I had my Audi back. Oh were, oh were is my long lost Audi. At least you are here to correct my
grammar and spelling. Better late, than never. You may have been kicked of BITOG

didn't finish.... computer problem....

I think my last sentense go cut off..

This is off topic, but I see that Chumley is back to pronouncing his lubrication expertise and superiority once again.

Chumley, we all can't be engineers, tribologists, specialists, and the like. However, that should NOT shun us from asking questions, stupid or not, trying to find out information, free or not, and learning what we can to make an INFORMED decision about one of the most expensive "investments" that the average working stiff purchases in his/her lifetime.

It takes time and effort to search through all of the bull and useless information on the internet, so it is not "free" per se. How much is your time worth to you? Must be a pretty price tag considering the way you strut around your expertise and formal education.

I'll shut up now, and let this topic get back to the enjoyable process of input/output and exchanging of ideas/information/opinions/experiences and stuff like that.