interpreting information

Go to http://www.bobistheoilguy.com and search on "Redline". Most controversial oil I can think of. Shows lousy UOA's. I'm not sure RL's street oils are all that great. Their reputation is based on their low viscosity racing oils. That is the market they do well in.

Buster,

I read through several threads on BITOG after searching "redline" as a subject. (Thanks for informing me of that forum.) It seemed like you were enthusiastic about Redline in most cases there, though not so much as others. Not trying to bust your chops at all, but could you elaborate what you mean by saying it's controversial?

The one thing I did see that gave me pause there was a passing, indirect statement about Redline "reacting" with Honda bearings. Any thoughts on that, anybody? I have put it in my '03 Honda, so all information on be appreciated.

Thanks

The engineers who designed and built you Honda and 1,000,000's of others just like it know far more about their drivetrain and the correct lubricants for your specific application than anyone at Redline or at Blob.

If you simply read your owners manual and use the oils the Honda engineers recommend and change them according to their recommended intervals based on your severity of service, chances are your new Honda will have no problems going 300,000 miles and beyond. Spend your extra pocket change elsewhere.

The exception being if you regularly operate in severe conditions, where cold cranking (below at least 0°F) temperatures are a common condition. There, the synthetic oils do help.

IMO, oil analysis (at least the ICP tests so popular now) are a waste of money for the standard motorist as are the aftermarket additives which are now also popular among a relatively uneducated few. You'll get a lot of heated argument/opinion on this, but no hard data that proves otherwise.


Chumley

Your points are all very well taken. I would guess that many people, particularly the "relatively uneducated few" like myself, obsess about oil to an extent not warranted by the vehicles we drive. However, the owner's manual does say that synthetics are acceptable, but gives no detail at all beyond that.

So, allow me to rephrase the original question:

Assuming hypothetically, just for the sake of argument, that good synthetics are better in some way than conventional oils, are there any specific reasons NOT to use Redline, other than the cost?

If the answer to that is "no," then the next step would be to the meat of the matter, which of course is substantiating the claims Redline and others make that their oils are better than dinos. (And bear in mind that it can get awfully hot in Georgia, which may justify the extra protection if indeed there is such.)

I do appreciate all input so far.

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=012378

Do you have a link to Honda bearing issue

Here is what I was refering to:

"Redline reacts quite aggressively towards the softer bearing overlay materials used by some manufacturers such as Honda. This effect normally dissipates with long term use of the product, so I'm not terribly concerned about it. Honda motorcycles don't exhibit this chemical reaction and I suspect they use a different type of metallurgy than the car engines....

The harder (Pb/Sn/Ni) bearings used by Toyota and most German manufacturers aren't affected by the RL chemistry. This is very obvious when looking at the UOA's that have been posted over the past several years.

TS"

Here is the link to the thread. If it doesn't work, I found it again by searchin "Honda bearings Redline" in "entire message."
https://forums.noria.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/616604995/m/9751086521

Sorry, that was the wrong link. Here it is:

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=...;f=1;t=010593#000008

Could tie into this butspeculation

at another corner of Honda's Wako R&D Center, a group of advanced engine designers and engineers were striving to get another engine to combine high-rpm power and reliability under very demanding operating conditions–Formula One racing. Lack of reliability had for some time been plaguing the naturally aspirated, 3.5-L, V12 engine.

To remedy the problem, a team of Honda metallurgists/engineers created a highly seizure-resistant overlay on the bearing's sliding surface using a unique electrodepositing of tetra-methyl lead, Pb (h00). The highly oriented Pb surface has a composition of myriad minuscule pyramids, which possesses outstanding "wettability" or lubricant-retaining properties. Honda claims it has given a 30% or higher increase in the anti-seizure parameter, PV, than a surface with conventional deposits.

quote:

Assuming hypothetically, just for the sake of argument, that good synthetics are better in some way than conventional oils, are there any specific reasons NOT to use Redline, other than the cost?

Most all of the synthetic oils manufactured today are of excellent quality, however many do not meet the API, JASO, or ECEA specifications (for good reasons) which are called out in your owners manual. It's a commonly accepted myth promoted by oil industry marketing that because oil is for racing, aircraft jet engines, or any other high performance application that it is suitable for everyday use in your Honda. Often it's simply not true since the oil additive packages can and do vary widely based on the lubricants intended application.

Racing oils, for example, may provide excellent protection (at $8.00 a quart or more) but many are only intended for very short term use (one race) before they are changed out. Many racing oils may, in fact, perform substantially worse than the factory approved lubricants over the (7500-15,000 miles for example) standard automotive oil change intervals. Other synthetics which are sold through multi-level marketing plans may also be of excellent quality, but other competitive products are usually available <locally> at considerably less cost since you don't have to pay the hefty Multi-Level Marketing "sales commission" which is built into the M-LM price if you buy correctly specified lubricants at a local jobber or bulk/retail outlet. Your choice.

With that in mind, any recently/currently manufactured oil, either dino or synthetic will easily meet the needs of the standard motorist as long as it states on the container that it meets the specifications called for in your owners manual. Everybody has their favorite products, but for the most part, the long term differences between most lubrication products are indistinguishable for the standard motorist in any real world tests. As I said before, you'll always get lots of heated opinion/argument on this, but, rarely any well documented facts that prove otherwise.

The engineers who designed and built built your Honda know what they are doing. If you don't think they do and doubt their specifications, I suggest you try building a better vehicle. After you've designed and built built your first 100,000, please write back, gladly we'll talk further.

Chumley

I get your point. And I don't doubt Honda's engineers. Like I said, I'm not a chemist (or engineer), which is why I came here for help sorting through all the information and pervasive marketing chimeras out there. It just seemed to me that the manual might list minimum requirements, as for example it does for the gasoline (Min. 86 octane), which would imply that better wouldn't hurt. (Nobody sells less than 87 oct. around here anyway.) Of course gas and oil two are two different discussions; just using that to make a more general point.

Having said that, Redline does NOT in fact display the API emblem on their bottles. Instead, it says "recommended for API ...." And they state the API applications for their different street oils on their website:
http://www.redlineoil.com/pdf/4.pdf

I assume (chagrined) that means they are not API certified. Does that also mean necessarily that they do not meet the API specifications, even though they list those specifications? How would one find out? (Presumably not from Redline.) Or if they DO meet the specifications, why wouldn't they be certified? And why are so many people so enthusastic about their street oils? Just ignorance and a strong racing reputation, as Buster implied? Stranger things have occured....

You've definitely pointed out reasons for skepticism, which is helpful.

Correct , Redline oils do not have the API donut on their bottles . Is that a bad thing ? I certainly don't think so and evidently Redline don't think it's such a bad idea to NOT beat to the drum of the API and ISLAC either while paying money for the donut to boot . Maybe they think they can build a better oil that way .

The API , ISLAC or both upped the average cam and lifter wear allowance of the GM dyno mule engine from 20 μm maximum for the SL 30wts to 60 μm maximum for the SM-GF-4 30wts .

Sequence IIIF

Sequence IIIG


But thats beside the point


What was the topic ?

The "controversial" part of RL I was referring to was the basestock and whether it's not good at dealing with water. Among all the oil analysis results on bobistheoilguy.com, RL has been by far the most disappointing. Now on the other hand, some will say that due to RL's high Ester content, it scavenges and holds more metals/sludge etc. in suspension giving you the impression that wear is higher. That is a theory and even until this day I do not know what to think about RL. I beat up on RL quite a bit at BITOG as Motorbike will tell you. LOL. I'd like to think RL is great oil, but I'm still on the fence with it after 3 years of following this stuff.

I've read some interesting articles about how some esters compete with anti-wear additives on the surface and show more wear. In Race Car Engineering magazine, they did an article on lubricants. Shell actually makes some racing lubricants with Group III/IV blends. Additives are such a huge part of the equation and while RL might have a great basestock, I'm not so sure it's ideal in all situations.

Thanks dudes. I stuck my neck out hoping to get a little bit beat up, to help see what I otherwise wouldn't have. Mission accomplished. Now I'm with Buster on the fence, which is quite alright.

Out of interest I checked Castrol UK site for oil recommendation.


http://www.castrol.com/castrol/castrolhomepage.do?categ...lobalcountryselector

The answer appears to be 0W40.

Would you get 3x less cam wear with this oil?

quote:

The API , ISLAC or both upped the average cam and lifter wear allowance of the GM dyno mule engine from 20 μm maximum for the SL 30wts to 60 μm maximum for the SM-GF-4 30wts .

Wow! That is astounding. So it appears that engine wear is the sacrifical lamb to "mother earth." I bet the low zddp is the main culprit. Sort of like when the schools show better overall student performance by lowering the standards.

Geez. This is enough to make one wonder whether businesses should have free speech rights, as they've used that freedom to make it all but impossible for most people to make reasonably informed judgments about their products without taking advanced chemistry and engineering courses.

TallPaul, if your analogy works, then there is indeed reason to worry. As a public high school English teacher I definitely share your concern with lowered standards. By the time many lower level students get to me, they are already so far behind that it is all I can do to get them to respond intelligently to the local newspaper. But I can assure you that politicians and business leaders who think they know better are making the problem far, far worse.

Back to oil, if API and ILSAC standards are suspect, will some manufacturers start making more specific recommendations? I noticed a thread here about a new VW specification, for example. Anybody know of others, and what the specific reasons were for those changes?

Tallpaul

The UK have the same problem re lowering exam standards, perhaps we are lucky not being CAFE driven, although AEHaas continues with the thin is better although RL 5W20 is not exactly "thin" with HTHS of 3.3.

The Penrite oil site is worth a visit as they go for thick is better.

For the record,Redlines "race" oils lack detergents. Detergents themselves have no lubricating ability, so for short term racing use where oil will be changed every race, it is far better to run without them (just plain better protection). Their race oils are also not multi-vis, so no viscosity index improvers in there to mess things up either (again, better protection). These oils have naturally high viscosity indexes anyway, so it's no big deal on a racing engine that will be carefully warmed up, driven once, then have its oil changed. "Race" oils are however, not suitable for everyday use.

Got to say that I am a long time Redline user. Sorry, no horror stories to tell! My engines last forever, and a day. Same with my 15 or so quads and dirt bikes. I have run Maxima Extra or Ultra (also ester synthetics) for years, with no issues.

I have heard that of Redline's street oils, only the 5w40 has any viscosity index improvers added. All the rest have a high enough viscosity index to meet the multigrade criteria. That is another benefit of the Group V ester formulation.

Yeah, and Redline has loads of ZDDP and moly.