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Metal particles and dust in new car oil

M maindrianMember
Hi all,

On 12/26, I bought a new Ford 500 with the 3.0 Duratec 30 engine. The car had 32 miles on the odometer, and during the purchase, the salesman noted from the records on the car that it had sat on their lot for 211 days. Build date is 2/14/05.

I did an oil change with Motorcraft 5/20 and a Motorcraft filter per the manual, 6 qt fill, at 300 miles. At about 800 miles, I started noticing a metallic rapping noise at idle, sort of like a noisy valvetrain. My dealer said not to worry, it's normal and claimed it was intake noise.

Did the second oil change at 1000 miles, and noticed a lot of metallic dust and a few shavings in the pan. Dust about the size of metal flake in paint, and the shavings about the size of pencil eraser bits.

I showed the dust/shavings to the service manager at the dealer, and he said to bring him a sample of oil from my next change, and they'd send it out for analysis. The engine is still making the rapping noise, and comparison with other Ford 500s in for service confirm that this is not a "normal" noise.

I changed the oil again at 1500 miles, and got fewer shavings and dust, but still a significant amount. I gave a sample to the service manager, and am waiting for the results.

Tonight, laying under the car with a mechanic's stethoscope, it sounds like the rapping noise is coming from the rotating assembly, down low around the oil pan. I drained off about a pint of oil to check (1900 miles) and am still seeing metallic dust and a few particles.

Questions - is it normal to see metallic dust and particles in oil this far after break-in, or is this normal? I've never noticed debris in my oil in any of my other cars, and I've changed a LOT of oil.

What will the analysis be looking for, and if I know that there were shavings and dust in the oil I gave as a sample to the dealer, and they come back and say "It's normal, don't worry", should I trust them? It seems like they're being very cautious and avoiding telling me that they agree that there's something wrong with the car.

I broke the car in by the manual, and didn't drive like a madman. Despite the rapping noise, it runs strong.

Thank you for your help!
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S samcMember
Some metal in the oil of a new vehicle is to be expected, but it sounds like what you have is excessive. I use Blackstone labortories for my oil analysis. If you contact Blackstone they will send you a sampling kit. Send your own sample out for analysis and give the dealer a sample for them to have analyzed. Blackstone will let you know what normal values are and where your sample compares. It does sound like you may have a serious problem with the engine.
S samcMember
I suspect the noise is in the lower end of the engine, possibly connecting rod or main bearings. If that's the case an engine replacement would be the most desirable resolution to the problem. Metal has been circulating thoughout the engine causing wear on other parts. A lot depends on the dealer. Ford will probably have them disassemble the engine to determine the cause, but that is to be expected.
B barkermanMember
You might want to consider starting a log book with every person you talk to and records of everything. Get in contact with a manufacturer's rep and get a case number started. I hope you got several kits from Blackstone. Also contact Blackstone labs and get Terry Dyson's phone number. Pay him his fee to get his analysis and do this with as may samples as Terry might request. You could have a serious problem. The service manager may just say "it's normal" and if you believe that, you could get stuck with a problem and no documentation. Keep all your receipts, phone conversation records, visits to the dealer, everything. And thke photos. And keep us updated.
M maindrianMember
Finally got my Blackstone kit! I'll send it in asap. Coincidentally, I called them, and spoke with Jim Stark. I told him about my situation, and he told me that maybe I shouldn't be panicking yet, that maybe the metal is just left over junk from manufacturing, but I'll send the oil in and let them check it out.

Still no word from my dealer - the service mgr said he had trouble getting his boss to OK sending the sample out, then they had trouble at the post office sending it... clearly giving me the idea they have no idea what they're doing and maybe hoping I'll go away...
S samcMember
I am not a expert by any means on metal particles in the oil and can only comment to my personal experience. I do my first oil change at 1000 miles and the second at about 3000 miles. I have had my share of new vehicles and always perform my own maintenance. The first oil change always has a fair amount of metal in the oil. The second you may see a little if you look hard. After changing your oil three times I would expect the metal in the oil to have diminished considerably. What Jim Stark told you may be true in your instance, but the fact that you hear a rap in the lower end leads me to believe something is going on. At 1900 miles the engine is still breaking in, but most of the wear metals should be gone.
M maindrianMember
Got my test back from Blackstone!
According to the report, the oil seems ok. The narrative says that with this engine, it's not unusual to see wear particles from break-in in the oil for up to 4600 miles.
Report also says that the viscosity is dropping a bit. I'm using Motorcraft 5/20 - I might switch to Mobil 1 soon.

Doesn't explain the noise I'm hearing, but at least it's a bit of a relief.
M motoristMember
Maindrian,

start up your engine, let it take the runing temperature, try to accelerate and hear fom where the noise is coming you have to be at the lateral side side of the engine (vehicule) -for your security- if you can't do it alone some one can help you by accelerate and you can try to hear the noise:
if it come from the engine and it is similar to "tag tag tag tag" at low speed and "rrrrrrrrrr" at high speed (spanish language) at a frequency going up an down with the engine speed it may be the bushing of the crackshaft.
if the noise come from the pump of injection it is a pump defect.
if the noise come from the up of the engine it may be a valve clearance wich can produce many type of noise going from simple to a combustion noise.

to confirm a engine wear you can disassemble the carter and look for debris of metal and slice thinly melting lead. in this case you have to open the engine (disassemble) and inspect it.

excuse my bad english,if you know french or arabic i can explane better.
M maindrianMember
Thank you for the suggestion. At this point, I'm nearing 6000 miles on the car. The dealer where I purchased the car confirmed their incompetency by losing the oil sample I gave them, and asking me to come give them another one. No. I took the car to another dealer that has tracked down some weird noises for me on other cars in the past, and tells me the truth. They kept the car for a few days and determined that the noise is coming from one of the timing chains still wearing in, and that the metal in the oil is probably leftover junk from manufacturing still washing out.

The noise didn't alarm them, they said is was a bit on the loud side, but nothing to be worried about. That made sense to me - the noise can be isolated to the right front wheel area, which is the side of the car where the timing chains are, and the wheel opening would be the clearest point for the noise to come out of the car. They said that if it got any louder, to come back.

In the mean time, when the car rolled 5000 miles, I changed to Mobil-1 5/20. Very little metal came out in the drain oil, just two or three little dots. With the Mobil-1, the noise can barely be heard at all. I think I'm going to stop worrying about it unless I hear the noise louder, or if I still see any metal in my oil at 10,000, when I plan to do my next change.
R rudyhiebertMember
quote:
Originally posted by Maindrian:
"...What will the analysis be looking for, and if I know that there were shavings and dust in the oil I gave as a sample to the dealer, and they come back and say "It's normal, don't worry", should I trust them?..."


The lab that does the oil analysis should not be looking for anything, just show the facts as they see it. Have you thought of what might be coming through your air filter? Most air filters like the ones they use on the track are designed to only keep out tires. Once your ready for air & oil filters that will do a finer job, that might be something to think about.
K kellytidwellMember
micbial, do you have any idea how 5/20 motor oil is compounded? also are you aware that the lighter a motor oil base is,also is a general indicator that the additive pak has been reduced as well? fuel economy is not accomplished simply by reducing the viscosity;also if you reduce base viscosity something else is going to take a back seat?the ultra light oils are compounded to assist vehicle mfgrs.to meet C.A.F.E. requirements. go to radio shack, purchase a $ 25.00 decibel meter ; start an engine which has 5/w20 motor oil. allow the engine 5 minutes to stabilize and then measure the decibels with the meter lying on the ground, or on the fender or anywhere close to the engine compartment.change the oil to a 10/w30, or a 10/w20 allow the same time for the engine to stabilize, then measure the decibels from the same position.it is more emphatic if you permit the engine test to go on for 30 minutes. afterward i believe it becomes quite clear that the engine noise is a product of FRICTION .so it then becomes a question of 2 or 3 tenths of a mile per gallon in fuel economy, or the obvious wear in the engine??? i personally prefer engine life! also the hoo-rah concerning cold weather does not become a real issue when you consider that some commercial grades of 10/w30 and 10/w20 have pour points of almost minus,-50 degrees f.
M micbialMember
Well in my own personal experience with 5W/20 it has shown no amount of increased engine wear. I have had 5W/20 installed in my 2001 Impala for over 3 years now (which calls for 5W/30). Run UOA's every 4,000 miles and never had a test show wear metal reading's over what I would find in the same engines running a thicker oil or what my previous UOA's showed when the engine was run on 5W/30. The car now has close to 200,000 miles on it, about 120,000 miles of that being on 5W/20. Average OCI is 16,000 miles. Car get's driven on average between 100 to 200 miles a day 5 day's a week. Since the change to 5W/20 I average per year a .41 MPG increase in fuel economy over what I was getting on 5W/30. Also, about 5 months ago I pulled the front valve cover to check the condition of the valvetrain and also checked the front 3 cylinders with a bore scope. No unusual wear was noticed. In fact the engine looks like it should easily last another 200,000-300,000 miles. So where's the downside here? Used properly 5W/20 does not have a downside.
C csquaredMember
This is a sad story. No one who just purchased a new car should have to go through this. No wonder Ford and GM are going bankrupt. I am having metal flake trouble in my oil as well on my 1996 Mustang with 3.8 liter V6. but at least its 11 years old! Do not listen to the people at the dealer. About a year after I bought my Mustang it started leaking oil out of the front of the water pump. They told me it was the front crank seal. After going back to the mechanic and showing him where it was leaking from he insisted it was leaking from the crank seal and being thrown up on to the front of the engine so I figured he is the expert he must Know more than me. Guesse what after pulling half the front of my motor off and replcing a pefectly good crank seal it still leaked. So I took it to another dealer and sure enoungh it was just a matter of sealing the waterpump bolt with some teflon. Don't trust these mechanicis they will milk you even if the car is still under warranty!
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