Opinions (of better, facts) on Valvoline oil additives

Well, why use an oil additive? If you buy a proper formulated oil, you don't need any further additives. You may even spoil the oil's additive package and create new problems.

There is more than one engine manufacturer claiming that warranty will void if additional oil additives are used. If you look deeper into additive chemistry, you know why.

The Valvoline additives are used with Valvoline oils with the blessing of Valvoline. So I think they will be fine in that application. Using them with other brand oils may be different, but I believe they are made to universally apply to any company's oil.

What the Maxlife Engine Protector and Synpower Oil Treatment do is give the consumer a way to have a more robust oil than the standard SL-rated (soon SM) oil. Given the reduced levels of phosphorus and zinc in the SL (and moreso SM) oils, this seems to be a good thing.

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The Valvoline additives are used with Valvoline oils with the blessing of Valvoline. So I think they will be fine in that application. Using them with other brand oils may be different, but I believe they are made to universally apply to any company's oil.

What the Maxlife Engine Protector and Synpower Oil Treatment do is give the consumer a way to have a more robust oil than the standard SL-rated (soon SM) oil. Given the reduced levels of phosphorus and zinc in the SL (and moreso SM) oils, this seems to be a good thing.

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I have seen one GF-4 oil perform in an engine test. Wear was not an issue. I am quite sure that the makers of ILSAC GF-4 or API SM know very well what they do. Having a field problem with a new oil quality is the last thing they want to have.

Zinc and phosphate are really cheap, but not the only way to protect your engine against wear.

If you have the feeling that these oils are not robust enough for your engine, you may also use european oils with higher additive treat rates.

Most of the time, more additive will not give more wear protection.

Thanks, your points are all good. For easy going little additive is needed, but for hard use more is good--to a point. What I am proposing is a mild additive boost for an extra edge.

Why do the European oils have the higher additive treat rate? Makes me wonder if the N. American rates are really all that good, especially since they are so paranoid about damaging the catalytic converter that they keep dropping the phosphorus levels.

True there are other additives, and better base oils, but they do seem to be pushing the limit on lower levels and thinner oils in the USA. I like the additive boost of the Valvoline products (prime additive in these seems to be molybdnym at 489 ppm per an analysis someone at another site did). This gives extra protection and some friction mod. I like that for those times you really drive hard (say, maybe Castrol "Drive Hard" motor oil is the answer).

Would love to get some European oil. Maybe Maxlife 15w40, but I suspect it would be costly to ship. Do you know anyone stateside that distributes European version oil?

@TallPaul
Well, a little friction modifier most of the time will certainly not hurt the engine. It will even give some extra fuel economy, especially during cold start.

I do not quite understand your point about "... but for hard use more is good--to a point. What I am proposing is a mild additive boost for an extra edge."
Do you have a special tuned engine? If this is the case, safe your money for a proper oil formulation. After all, I think an extra additive with just a little Molybdenum is a money making nonsense.

I get your point about thinner oils and less additives for catalyst protection.
But thinner oil does not necessarily mean less protection for your engine, (e.g 0w-20 viscosity) if this is released by the manufacturer.

For me 15W-40 is an old fashioned viscosity, which I would not use nor recommend anymore. 5W-40 for an older vehicle is for sure safe enough in terms of oil pressure. 5W-30 is the state of the art viscoity, for the US and Europe.

You should get european oils at the VW, BMW,... dealer.

Callisa:

True, more is good only to a point. Hard use is just hard driving. Normal vehicle but sometimes driven hard. The 15w40 I am running is Valvoline Durablend and is a passenger car oil. Most other 15w40s are heavy duty motor oil. I don't want that level of additives as I do think that would be too much.

I plan on running mostly 10w40 in my pickup. Has 300 cubic inch (4.9L) straight six pushrod engine. Gets 44 psi oil pressure on 10w40 but only 35 on 5w30. My other vehicles are both on 10w30. I like the 10w for a more robust base oil, though that is not always the case (must look at MSDS sheets).

There should be a VOA comparison of the two Valvoline products on the oil guy site in a couple weeks. Should be interesting. The bets are the Synpower Oil Treatment is great and the Maxlife Engine Protector is so so.

Good Idea. I will have to check out the VW and BMW dealers, just to see what they have.

@TallPaul
You cannot run your car harder then a Sequence IIIF / IIIG engine test which the oils have to pass.

The lower oil pressure you are referring to is during idling, right? With a good oil, you will not see an early wear, even with a 0W-20 viscosity.

Unfortunatelly as private person you have no chance to rate a good from a bad oil. You have to have standardized engine testing, everything else is just believing. Stay with your owners manual, if it releases a XW-30 viscosity, you shouldn't be afraid of the lower oil pressure.

Callisa, I think you are very knowledgable on motor oil, like as if you work in that industry. Anyway, I think you are basically right that additives are not needed. I had a good used analysis on Maxlife 10w40 in the pickup. Just got back an analysis of Maxlife 10w30 that I ran 4400 miles in my motorhome and it was excellent (mnfr says 3000 mile interval).

While I can't run harder than the Seq IIIF/IIIG tests, I can run differently. But probably not so that I could really damage an engine unless something else is wrong, like blown head gasket, and then no brand oil, or additive will help if not caught early.

Very good point about rating oils. All we have to go on is brand image, product spec sheets and whether we want some synthetic in it. But who knows the base oil type or viscosity, type of additives, etc. One reason I like to stick with Valvoline as I think they make pretty good motor oil, but I never go with the basic Valvoline, always a step up, either Maxlife or Durablend.

@TallPaul
Well, maybe I do work in that industry. Maybe in another.

And yes, you can run differently, and yes you are right, your oil will behave differently. How differently? Well, that depends lot from your engine, fuel used, and of course, your personal driving style.

I have no experience with Valvoline, Maxlife or Durablend oils, as they are not common in Germany. Just looking at the sum parameters from the oil (Ca, Mg, S, Sulfated ash etc.) says nothing about performance. So even if I wanted to, I cannot say anything about the quality of these oils, because I have no data.

To make things worse, "synthetic" or a high price does not guarantee to have a good oil.

So, what are your worries ("... but for hard use more is good--to a point. What I am proposing is a mild additive boost for an extra edge.") that you want to use extra additives or European oils? Do you believe that this will help to increase your engines life?

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Just looking at the sum parameters from the oil (Ca, Mg, S, Sulfated ash etc.) says nothing about performance. So even if I wanted to, I cannot say anything about the quality of these oils, because I have no data. To make things worse, "synthetic" or a high price does not guarantee to have a good oil.

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I believe you are right in every point.

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So, what are your worries ("... but for hard use more is good--to a point. What I am proposing is a mild additive boost for an extra edge.") that you want to use extra additives or European oils? Do you believe that this will help to increase your engines life?

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Well really I am just toying with ideas and realize that the basic oil will suffice. The engine already will outlast the rest of the truck.

But some of us have made this into sort of a hobby, trying to learn everything we can and talking about the different oils, etc. You can find a lot of us at Bobistheoilguy.com forums. Your knowledge would be helpful over there too.

The extra additives I mentioned are not necessary and only would prove of much use in extreme, potentially catastrophic situations. Such does not happen very often with a well maintained engine.

I do, however, wonder about the upcoming (or is it here) SM oils with the further reduced phosphorus, but surely something else is added to compensate.

Callisa, I guess I should add that some things that deplete over time such as TBN could be boosted by an additive to get more miles out of an oil that is otherwise in pretty good shape. Not sure how great that need is in passenger vehicles. One major benefit from my studying motor oil over the past 9 months is that I am extending my oil change intervals over the standard 3000 miles. I just got a UOA back on my motorhome (there is some severe service) which is supposed to be changed every 3000 miles, but I went 4400 miles and the oil was in great shape, probably could have gone 5000 miles.

Anyway Thanks for giving me some challenging thoughts to mull over. It has been useful.

Well, I myself change my oil rather often... every 20.000 Km, knowing that there is still plenty of reserve left. I could go even up to 30.000 km without hurting my engine. By the way, the oil is nothing special and not very expensive. In fact it is the right pick from the hardware store around the corner.

You think you can do the same with your engine and the same oil? Maybe yes, maybe not. For sure, 3000 miles is a very short drain interval. But to extend oil drain to 20.000 km or more, many things must fit perfectly together, otherwise you'll see strange effects like Toyota sludge.

I cannot recommend you to boost up your TBN with extra additives. It would take me a lot of time to explane why I would not recommend this, just believe me that there is reason behind that recommendation.

Wow, 12000 mile OCI on basic corner store oil. Great. You must know what you are doing. No, I won't push it like that without UOA support. Won't use an additive to boost TBN either, but maybe if on a long OCI and the UOA says all good but TBN. Still, messing around like that I should get help from and expert like Terry Dyson of Dyson Analysis (or you). But oil is relatively cheap here and I am not exactly poor, so easiest for me to do some UOAs and establish a better OCI like 5000 miles. I like the longer OCI simply because it seems a waste to dump good oil.

Presumably bumping TBN up too too much would throw other things out of wack. Thanks again,

Having oil change Intervals between 20.000 and 30.000 Km is rather common for most new vehicles in Europe. My OCI is really nothing special. Don't mix up TBN depletion and wear. You may sludge your engine slowly if TBN is completely depleted, but you will not see any wear until oil channels are blocked with sludge.

A really important trick for a good oil is the ability to disperse things. This helps to prevent sludge formation. Unfortunatelly it is impossible to analyze this feature with a simple oil sample.

I am aware of the much longer OCIs in Europe and am puzzled at how it is done because in USA they (oil companies and lube change places) blanked recommend the extremely short 3000 miles.

TBN is important, but unlikely to be an issue with short interval that I use (up to 5000 miles). I agree dispersancy is critical and should not normally need an additive unless on a longer OCI. Diesel rated oils are higher in dispersancy. Valvoline Maxlife Engine Protector also I believe adds some dispersancy. Bypass filtration could help in this area too, I would think, by removing the smaller particals from the oil before it is overloaded, but again, not for short OCIs.

How are long oil drains done?
Now we start to get a little off-topic.

I can do some words how this works, but am not sure if this is the right topic to start such a discussion.

You are right by claiming that Diesel oils usually have higher dispersancy. But dispersancy is important for every oil, may it be used in a long or short OCI. Otherwise you get sludge/deposits, even with high TBN. Still I cannot recommend to top-up dispersants to your oil. Otherwise your antiwear additives might be flushed away from their work.

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Originally posted by Callisa:
I cannot recommend to top-up dispersants to your oil. Otherwise your antiwear additives might be flushed away from their work.

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Very good point. That is why I feel safe with adding a Valvoline aftermarket additive to Valvoline oil.

Use a good oil from the beginning, additive top-ups are a waste of money.

Well, you are right, but you are spoiling my fun. Now what am I going to do for all those 1000s mile between oil changes?

BTW, one could look at using for a top up additive the same oil that was initially installed. Now you can't argue with an additive like that.

But the bottom line on what you just said is I probably should run Havoline for a buck a quart instead of Valvoline for >2 bucks a quart, even though Valvoline is good is it expensive.

I think you will find some challenging discussion on the oil guy site and that would be good to enlighten folks like me. Hope to see you there sometime (noticed you are a new user, but haven't seen a post yet).

Also, if you ever would like to give us the whole story on how Europeans get such long OCIs without toasting their engines, many would love to know. I suspect the motor oils over there are more robust. You know the mantra in the USA to always change oil every 3000 miles. So I think the oil is made to follow that with thankfully a broad leeway.

Well, I read a little in those forums the other day, and I must say there are some things I do not quite understand yet.

For instance it seems to be a more or less religious question to use "Amsoil" or "Mobil 1" or "Penzoil". I know Mobil 1, but not the other brands. Some seem to be cheap and work, others expensive and working, too. Is that the trick? More or less two parties claiming they do OCI's with cheap or expensive oil? Maybe you can explain this to me.

Besides, there seem to be discussions about Mg, Ca, Boron content etc. and which is better for having oil performance.

This is ridicoulous. It's like saying what amount of what color the artist used for his picture, this picture must be more beautiful then the other one. Or like saying, this is the best steel, this is the reason why this must be the very best car. Do you understand what I mean?

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Originally posted by Callisa:
Well, I read a little in those forums the other day, and I must say there are some things I do not quite understand yet.

For instance it seems to be a more or less religious question to use "Amsoil" or "Mobil 1" or "Penzoil". I know Mobil 1, but not the other brands. Some seem to be cheap and work, others expensive and working, too. Is that the trick? More or less two parties claiming they do OCI's with cheap or expensive oil? Maybe you can explain this to me.

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For many people oil selection seems to be like a religious experience. There is endless debate whether to use dino on short OCIs vs synthetic on long OCIs, debate over Group III"synthetic" vs Group IV and Group V. These folks are never contented. As I said, their hobby is motor oil. I am having fun with it too. But rather than all the switching off I am pretty much committed to using Valvoline. Why, I couldn't tell you. I understand there are cheaper oils that would work as well.

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Besides, there seem to be discussions about Mg, Ca, Boron content etc. and which is better for having oil performance.

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Folks there are very intersted in antiwear properties and friction modifiers, etc.

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This is ridicoulous. It's like saying what amount of what color the artist used for his picture, this picture must be more beautiful then the other one. Or like saying, this is the best steel, this is the reason why this must be the very best car. Do you understand what I mean?

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Well sort of. The amount of various additives can vary considerably and different ones can make up for lower amounts of others. Additionally, better quality base oil can make up for excess additive levels. Valvoline generally gets run down on that site as "having a weak add pack," but I have seen very good performance from Valvoline. So, what am I to conclude? Perhaps the base oil Valvoline uses is much better that it does not need such high levels of ZDDP, Moly etc. Perhaps Valvoline is more careful to avoid dumbell distribution of base oil molecules--or perhaps not. I really don't know. I am there hoping to learn something, but will be unmoved from Valvoline until someone can show me it is no good.

One thing the site did for me was to wean me of a 27 year habit of Rislone Engine Treatment (now watch you tell me that is the one and only addive that is any good--no, just kidding). But now I play with a few additives, just for fun. It won't hurt my engine to try the Synpower Oil Treatment, but you are right that is is unnecessary. However, I have an even more devious desire--I plan to throw about 8 to 16 ounces of Redline oil into my Valvoline. Why? Just can't help myself. The chemist at Redline already blessed this, so I feel there is nothing to lose, but time and a little cash.

And Economically I am not at all interested in finding the cheapest oil out there, however, I like to get my oil cheap and paid about $1.75 a quart for the last 24 quarts of Valvoline Durablend I have purchased (normally $2.50 aprox.).

Anyway, appreciate the conversation with you. I am getting to think this site (Noria) is better because of their vendor neutrality. ONly wish it would become more active.

Finally, just curious about your web name, Callisa: are you she?

no, me is he.

1,75 $ for 0,97 L of oil... rather cheap.

Cars are a serioius matter in Germany.

A "normal long drain oil" cost between 15 and 25 Euro....

per Liter, not per complete Service fill...

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Originally posted by Callisa:
1,75 $ for 0,97 L of oil... rather cheap.

Cars are a serioius matter in Germany.

A "normal long drain oil" cost between 15 and 25 Euro....

per Liter, not per complete Service fill...

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That alone explains 95% about the long drain intervals in Europe. The remaining 5% is, how do they keep the oil from turning to gunk?

So Valvoline Durablend is a good oil?

What about Valvoline Maxlifefor older cars? What is behind that?

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The remaining 5% is, how do they keep the oil from turning to gunk?

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Well, to understand that, you must understand that you need three things for a long oil drain interval. If one of these three things is missing, you get gunk.

1.) A good fuel
2.) A proper designed engine
3.) ...Yeah, a good oil

Would you try to d long oil drain interval with a Chevy BelAir '56? No? Yep, you are right, you shouldn't do that.

Going with a good oil and a good engine in a bad fuel country,....
-> Gunk.

Understood?

I really never thought about the fuel factor in oil condition. But there is one fuel system cleaner that is highly rated and of the half dozen or so, this one only made a (perceived) difference to me in the F150 300 straight six: Redline SI-1 Complete Fuel System Cleaner. ON the US Redline site they have a brochure about it and it is amazing what they say fuel can do to your engine. Some folks doing UOAs at the oil guy site found (this I believe from Terry Dyson of Dyson Analysis nonetheless) that running the Redline fuel system cleaner affected the UOA. Remarkable. I am sold on the Redline SI-1

A proper engine design has many factors. The person I spoke to at www.auto-rx.com said many engines have areas where oil does not drain down but sits in the top end in pools. This apparently was for start up lube, but the net effect is you shut down and these pools cook to gunk a little at a time. Auto-Rx is an engine cleaner made of esters including lanolin. Looks snake oilish at first, but I believe it is for real and am trying it in one vehicle that is somewhat sludged.

I believe Valvoline Durablend and Maxlife are good oils, but I could not prove it. I can direct you to good UOAs on my vehicles with Maxlife. But looking at the MSDS sheets for US vs Euro Maxlife, it appeared to me that they are much different in formulation and I noticed a much higher flash point to the US 10w40 than the Euro 10w40 Maxlife, but that could be an anomoly.

The Maxlife has seal conditioners added, both US and European, which is supposed to be good for older cars, but really any car. I think it is a good way to get an oil that doesn't have the IMO "politically corrrect" Energy Conserving and Starburst emblem. I really don't care if the API likes my oil so long as I can trust the company.

What do you think of Redline Oil? Certainly not for the average user at $8 a quart over here. It is suppposed to be made largely from Group V esters. But in my "playing with oil" I can't help my desire to try mixing a bit of Redline into my oil (can't leave well enough alone).

As for the OIl guy site, try the Question of the Day forum and look at anyting user MolaKule writes (I think member #59 for searching). I believe he is the most knowledgable person on the site. I think you would find his info quite interesting.

Hmmm. A good fuel system additive is not exactly what I would define as "good fuel"

A good fuel has no Dienes, no sulfur, is low on olefines, high octane numbers, etc.

I don't know the redline products. They are not common here in Germany.

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It is suppposed to be made largely from Group V esters.

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I am suspicious against Esters. They have have excellent properties and cost a lot of money. But they can act as seal swelling agents which can be good for your engine - but does not necessarily need to be good.

In addition, I can think of some (very rare) circumstances, where esters have big disadvantages.

I do not have too much experience with ester oils, except with one oil. And this one stinks like cat pee after it was used, and in addition irritates the skin.

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Originally posted by Callisa:
Hmmm. A good fuel system additive is not exactly what I would define as "good fuel."

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Guess I took a tangent on the fuel quality thing. I would think USA should have some of the best fuels, but not necessarily. For one thing, I think the EPA and fuel economy regulation/concerns may have adulterated our fuel quality. Still great compared to say Bolivia I would presume.

As for octane number, most of our engines are designed/'set up to run the basic octane and running higher octane is not helpful.

Redline has a european site, but maybe not found in Germany.

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I would think USA should have some of the best fuels, but not necessarily.

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I don't want to hurt your feelings....
but the US has compared to Germany horrible fuel...

Even though Bolivia is worse, I must admit.

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Originally posted by Callisa:
[QUOTE] but the US has compared to Germany horrible fuel...

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Maybe I should be spending my time trying to find the best fuel in the US and not worry so much about oil. What good is micro improvement in engine oil when the fuel is what is killing me. Thanks. I recently selected to try to stick with BP as it was more highly rated, but that is just from a thread or two on the other site and no real data.

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Maybe I should be spending my time trying to find the best fuel in the US and not worry so much about oil.

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Yep.

At least in Germany BP is O.K. If they could, your Inlet valves would love you for that decission,too.

Ah yes. The inlet valves. Very important. I believe the Redline SI-1 is supposed to help that. The purpose of the SI-1 is largely to counteract less than perfect fuel quality/additives.

Back in '77 I bought a new Ford pickup and had to have it in under warranty for valve work twice. Saw one of the valves and it had huge deposits of black stuff caked on very think and rough. This was when no-lead fuel was just beginning, so maybe they had not gotten the technology down at that time, and the emission equipment of those days war rudimentary and power-stifling. Ah, the good old days!