During the last year or two, a study has been conducted on the Neptune website that tests the wear trends in Mobil 1 over it's lifetime. There are numerous difficulties with their methodology though I applaud their honesty. Many of the problems are simply due to lack of funds but also a reticence to be willing to "risk" a $5K engine. Also, as we all know, valid testing of lubricants is extremely expensive and time-consuming.
When I read of their intentions, I suggested that rather than test Mobil 1 whose properties were indeed pretty well known, that SynLube be used for the test. This proposition was rejected because of the oils inclusion of PTFE (nanoFlon) and because it is a 5W50 oil as opposed to the 5W30 viscosity speced by GM.
All this took place while a debate on MYFORDFOCUS.com (in which yours truly was one of the instigators) raged as to the merits or demerits of SynLube. This debate was in stark contrast to the restrained comments made here. Anyway, even Miro Kefurt, who owns SynLube got involved in the Neptune study. The following link traces the communications that occurred and they may of some interest to participants here.
http://neptune.spacebears.com/cave/syn-tolo.html
Read our primer articles on High Mileage Oil, Synthetic Oil and Kinematic Viscosity
The Neptune study debate was interesting and the two areas of rejection solids and vis IMO opinion were valid.
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The shear stability of an oil is a function of the quality of the additive package so far as I understand the term, not a function of the viscosity.
You are partly wrong. HTHS and kinematic viscosity are related to each other according SAE J300 specification. In addition additives may influence HTHS, too.
I just checked my oil level today.
I have 10,231 miles on the SynLube and the oil level was down 4 ounces.
That's a oil consumption rate of 80K+ miles per quart.
I have 10,231 miles on the SynLube and the oil level was down 4 ounces.
That's a oil consumption rate of 80K+ miles per quart.
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Originally posted by MGBV8:
The Neptune study debate was interesting and the two areas of rejection solids and vis IMO opinion were valid.
Who set the solids standards and what was the limit ? Was the laboritory used acclaimed for setting a solids standard that all other laboritories around the world use ?
The Neptune site was primarily concerned with the inclusion of PTFE (nanoFlon by Shamrock Technologies) in the formula due to the problems seen when a crude form of PTFE was used in Slick 50. The PTFE in nanoFlon is in the form of colloids 0.3-1.0 microns in size. They are permanently suspended in the oil due to the attraction these colloids have to the molecules in the liquid lubricants. The person who conducted the Neptune study did not completely deny that PTFE might work in the oil but was still uncomfortable "risking" his engine by using the SynLube.
When a proper form of PTFE is properly blended with the oil, there will be no problem with its use.
In regard to the viscosity of SynLube, 5W50, the problem here is that such a wide range of viscosity arouses suspicion since cheap polymers added to increase the viscosity range of an oil can fail under hard use and then the oil experiences "viscosity breakdown", a term coined by Castrol and which might very well apply to their 5W50 Syntec oil as some indications on the Redline Oil site seemed to suggest. SynLube, in contrast, stays "in grade" for the duration of its service life.
To date, I am unaware of any standards organization that has specifically warned or implemented standards contrary to the SynLube formulation. The 1996 formula met the new ILSAC and API standards without modification.
No one on the site except myself has even seen a bottle of SynLube, I have been using it for 4 years and have nothing but praise for its performance.
When a proper form of PTFE is properly blended with the oil, there will be no problem with its use.
In regard to the viscosity of SynLube, 5W50, the problem here is that such a wide range of viscosity arouses suspicion since cheap polymers added to increase the viscosity range of an oil can fail under hard use and then the oil experiences "viscosity breakdown", a term coined by Castrol and which might very well apply to their 5W50 Syntec oil as some indications on the Redline Oil site seemed to suggest. SynLube, in contrast, stays "in grade" for the duration of its service life.
To date, I am unaware of any standards organization that has specifically warned or implemented standards contrary to the SynLube formulation. The 1996 formula met the new ILSAC and API standards without modification.
No one on the site except myself has even seen a bottle of SynLube, I have been using it for 4 years and have nothing but praise for its performance.
Why use a 50w oil rather than as recommeded by manual, unless used in applications where oil temperature will be higher?
Why add PTFE if only for noise reduction?
Is Synlube any better than any other longlife oil?
With top quality synthetics the reason for changes appears now more to do with additives being used up not viscosity breakdown, mineral oil not even being used as a carrier. Soot/fuel dilution also change viscosity.
Why add PTFE if only for noise reduction?
Is Synlube any better than any other longlife oil?
With top quality synthetics the reason for changes appears now more to do with additives being used up not viscosity breakdown, mineral oil not even being used as a carrier. Soot/fuel dilution also change viscosity.
PTFE pulls babbit layer off bearing after time no ?
quote:Many OEMs recommend oils that are too thin to be compatible with the quality of life for our engines. As you may well know, the OEMs key their maintenance requirements to the expected life of the car which will vary from 70 to 150K. Now, no one believes that the car will fall apart @ 70K but that is the point where one can expect to begin anticipating repairs. 0W20 and 5W20 oils just don't work when one is going to keep a vehicle for 10-15 years. There's no secret about this. A 20W oil is a 20W oil and by definition provides less protection than a 30W oil given that both oils are in functional condition. When SynLube provides a 1-2% advantage in gas mileage over the thin oils in addition to providing superior engine performance, give me a reason (Hint: There isn't one.) why anyone would use anything else, especially since it doesn't have to be changed but once every 150K miles.
Why use a 50w oil rather than as recommeded by manual, unless used in applications where oil temperature will be higher?
quote:Why not? PTFE does its part for the engine protection and is particularly effective protecting sleeve bearings. As I've pointed out exhaustively, properly implemented, PTFE helps an engine.
Why add PTFE if only for noise reduction?
quote:Yes!! It is better than any oil in any climate for any engine (except a rotary) on weekdays, holidays, Sundays, Boxing Days, and National Cement Pavers Day. No exceptions!!!!
Is Synlube any better than any other longlife oil?
quote:Since SynLube has been designed from the start to effectively fight soot, and other forms of contamination, one isn't taking any chance at all using SynLube for the full duration of its service life. Its ability to prevent deterioration in the first place is due to its unsurpassed ring-sealing ability. Many of the problems experienced with oils are a direct result of their reaction to the presence of heat, which causes oil molecules to bind to contaminants thus undermining the oil's ability to protect. Because SynLube's components are inert, deterioration of the lubricant occurs at an extremely slow rate. At the end of the service life of SynLube, it is still more effective than any other oil when new! Additionally, when it's time to replenish oil that's been consumed, SERVICE FILL or ADD OIL are designed to supplement the original additive package, not just replace lost volume. This is a fundamental difference from any other oil on the market I'm aware of.
With top quality synthetics the reason for changes appears now more to do with additives being used up not viscosity breakdown, mineral oil not even being used as a carrier. Soot/fuel dilution also change viscosity.
There is no reason not to use SynLube in a properly functioning engine. None!!!
It still amazes me to see people on board like this that are always looking for the best oil immediately scramble to find some excuse not to use SynLube.
I eagerly await the cries of denial that will follow this post. I love the ones about PTFE. I just have to laugh sometimes.
quote:Ah, a fresh PTFE threat. This one's especially insideous.
PTFE pulls babbit layer off bearing after time no ?
Unfortunately for the PTFE conspiricists, no evidence of such a problem exists so far as SynLube's implementation of PTFE is concerned.
Could someone clarify at what temperature does PTFE gets attracted to metal surfaces and forms a coating and act as a sealant?
Because there is a misnomer that PTFE forms a coating > 450'C
Because there is a misnomer that PTFE forms a coating > 450'C
The function of PTFE (nanoFlon) in SynLube is presented as follows:
The primary means by which PTFE forms a "coating" occurs as a function of normal engine operation when an extremely heavy load is placed on an engine component. The PTFE becomes plasticized and is pushed into the fine "valleys" in machined surfaces. Secondarily, they are also found on metal parts as a result of being attracted to the esters in the formula that are negatively charged and therefore attracted to positively charged engine surfaces.
All of this occurs well before the 450 degrees Centigrade mention. This temperature should never be encountered in a anything approaching normal engine operation.
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The PTFE colloids that are contained in SynLube Lube-4-Life® reduce the Bearing Clearances, which in turn lower the lubricant side leakage rate. This brings onset of the favorable Hydrodynamic Lubrication regime at lower rotational speeds and results in better fuel efficiency and less Wear. Reduced clearances also reduce vibration and noise generation, SynLube Lube-4-Life® lubricated mechanisms therefore run noticeably quieter sometimes [by] up to several decibels.
The primary means by which PTFE forms a "coating" occurs as a function of normal engine operation when an extremely heavy load is placed on an engine component. The PTFE becomes plasticized and is pushed into the fine "valleys" in machined surfaces. Secondarily, they are also found on metal parts as a result of being attracted to the esters in the formula that are negatively charged and therefore attracted to positively charged engine surfaces.
All of this occurs well before the 450 degrees Centigrade mention. This temperature should never be encountered in a anything approaching normal engine operation.
@Houckster
We all know that you are convinced of Synlubes products. Yet I stay sceptic as you are mixing up so many things which just can't be true. The mineral oil industry e.g. uses much better products than PTFE as friction modifier, e.g. Molybdenumdithiocarbamates.
It is simply impossible to reduce the bearing clearances with Teflon. By the way, by doing this you would raise the oil temperature significantly.
I tried to explain to you other obvious mistakes during this thread.
In addition it does not make sense to claim that a 10 year old used oil is better than a new unused synthetic oil.
You are right by claiming that I never even saw a bottle of Synlube oil. But I saw many other oils and many engine oil test results to do such statements.
We all know that you are convinced of Synlubes products. Yet I stay sceptic as you are mixing up so many things which just can't be true. The mineral oil industry e.g. uses much better products than PTFE as friction modifier, e.g. Molybdenumdithiocarbamates.
It is simply impossible to reduce the bearing clearances with Teflon. By the way, by doing this you would raise the oil temperature significantly.
I tried to explain to you other obvious mistakes during this thread.
In addition it does not make sense to claim that a 10 year old used oil is better than a new unused synthetic oil.
You are right by claiming that I never even saw a bottle of Synlube oil. But I saw many other oils and many engine oil test results to do such statements.
quote:I am not mixing things up, it's just that you have some very hard preconceptions about what an oil can do and how it should be done. Consequently, any other approach seems fallacious to you. Just because you throw around a big word or two doesn't mean your basic proposition is true.
. . .you are mixing up so many things which just can't be true. The mineral oil industry e.g. uses much better products than PTFE as friction modifier, e.g. Molybdenumdithiocarbamates."
While SynLube does use PTFE as part of the effort to reduce friction, it is only part of the solution. The strength of the Synlube formula is that it uses a combination of chemicals to do this job. Thus to say that SynLube uses PTFE while other makers use Molybdenumdithiocarbamates, for example, is inaccurate to say the least.
quote:I never said this, I said that PTFE is embossed into the pores of the metal surface, not that it reduces clearances per se. No metal surface is completely smooth. It is in the irregularities of the surface that SynLube's PTFE and synthetic moly colloids are found and it is in this way that SynLube improves the seal at the piston rings.
It is simply impossible to reduce the bearing clearances with Teflon. By the way, by doing this you would raise the oil temperature significantly.
quote:Presumptious and condescending! You have your opinion and I have mine.
I tried to explain to you other obvious mistakes during this thread.
In addition it does not make sense to claim that a 10 year old used oil is better than a new unused synthetic oil.
quote:I stand by my statement. SynLube has properties that other makers who make liquid-only lubricants don't can't even try to duplicate. It is the solids in SynLube that provide a quality and longevity of lubrication that liquids don't have. I stand by my statement.
You are right by claiming that I never even saw a bottle of Synlube oil. But I saw many other oils and many engine oil test results to do such statements.
Noise reduction is not essential for protection but can mask perhaps problems. PTFE is not that good on the friction angle probably causing heat so why include this solid.
The only other oil using solids appears to be the cheaper end of market.
Amsoil has been run for long OCIs without problems.
Most mainstay oil companies probably take a conservative view on oil changes until pushed by the maufacturer due to increasing service intervals. At best Synlude uses a good basestock but, too much ester may not be good so must be a fairly standard PAO plus some esters, but not worth anymore than other synthetics. An oil can only take a certain amount of additives which is the reason for usually changing a synth.
An additive top up is being worked on I believe with oil filters, so the top up appears to be only difference but how this mixes with the old oil is a questionable.
The only other oil using solids appears to be the cheaper end of market.
Amsoil has been run for long OCIs without problems.
Most mainstay oil companies probably take a conservative view on oil changes until pushed by the maufacturer due to increasing service intervals. At best Synlude uses a good basestock but, too much ester may not be good so must be a fairly standard PAO plus some esters, but not worth anymore than other synthetics. An oil can only take a certain amount of additives which is the reason for usually changing a synth.
An additive top up is being worked on I believe with oil filters, so the top up appears to be only difference but how this mixes with the old oil is a questionable.
It seems clear that no matter what the properties of SynLube, there is an overwhelming proclivity to believe the worst no matter how far-fetched. How it can be believed that PTFE "is not that good on the friction angle probably causing heat so why include this solid." is hard for me to understand, especially since in 4 years of USING this product I have never had a problem with heat or any other problem. This apparently counts for nothing.
The rest of the post, I'm not sure I understand. There are fragments of logic presented end to end but not enough for me to respond to.
It does seem to me however, that I'm wasting my breath. Hopefully, without seeming mean-spirited, it is hard to avoid concluding that you are perfectly satisfied with what you're using and are not interested in SynLube's advantages. Consequently, there will always be another objection to trying it.
I think I am going to ride off into the sunset.
May all fair well!
The rest of the post, I'm not sure I understand. There are fragments of logic presented end to end but not enough for me to respond to.
It does seem to me however, that I'm wasting my breath. Hopefully, without seeming mean-spirited, it is hard to avoid concluding that you are perfectly satisfied with what you're using and are not interested in SynLube's advantages. Consequently, there will always be another objection to trying it.
I think I am going to ride off into the sunset.
May all fair well!
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I think I am going to ride off into the sunset. May all fair well!
I am a poor lonesome Cowboy, far away from home....
Moving away from Synlube, I understand, and probably a few years ago, that Ford has built a totally replaceable engine - no service oil change etc for 100k miles then just replace engine.
Probably more engine damage is caused by worn fuel injectors etc than not changing Synthetic oil?
Probably more engine damage is caused by worn fuel injectors etc than not changing Synthetic oil?
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Moving away from Synlube, I understand,
I AM NOT MOVING AWAY FROM SYNLUBE!!!! Just moving away from this board. I have said all I have to say about the advantages of this product. People here are happy with what they have and I will leave it at that.
This product seems odd. I emailed Miro and my Suburban is already worn out it seems. 122,000 miles on the odometer. The car that sets next to it also a GM product reflects 225,000 miles on the odometer. Miro sent an email that basically wondered why I would think of putting his oil in such a piece of junk. And one more thing... who in the heck refilters their oil?? Micro, nano, sub-micronic, redistilling all these are nice for smoke and mirrors but nobody else does it.