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I'm considering whether to buy a 2001 Toyota Sienna with 54,000 miles. Have read some history on the oil gelling/sludge issue. Available maintenance records indicate the oil has been changed every 4-5,000 miles so far, but with one (and maybe a 2nd) interval of 7300 miles between changes.

There seems to be a record of at least 1 oil change per year -- anyone know if Toyota is still accepting that as the minimum to get a free repair if needed?

The owner also purchased a transferable 6yr/100,000 mile warranty; I'd like to keep the vehicle well past 100K miles, though.

My main questions for this forum: if I buy it and start changing the oil every 3,000 miles, will it probably be all right?

I.e. would starting frequent oil changes now gradually remove accumulated sludge/gel?

Is there any other way (reasonably easy/inexpensive) to reverse the damage, or at least remove most of the accumulated sludge/gel?

Is there a test my mechanic should do before I buy to check for sludge/gel?
Original Post

Replies sorted oldest to newest

Depending on the age of the motor, I would use an engine flushing additive. I know the wynn's engine flush lets you run it in for up to 200km's which will really get it all out!

Either that or try a diesel engine oil with the same viscosity rating. Diesels have a higher detergency level which will keep your petrol engine spotless, and give you the advantage of a higher spec oil.
Where to find information on the Toyota engine sludge problem:

www.toyota.com

Here you can find announcement of sludge program, copy of the letter that was to be sent to 3.3 million owners, and acknowledgement by Toyota that this is just an issue with two specific Toyota engine designs. Toyota says it is not a design problem, but an owner maintenance issue, yet limits the policy to two specific engines over a given range of time.

www.AERA.org

The information on this site is not readily available except to mechanics, however, one of their announcements addresses the problem. In this announcement they discuss the problem of sludge in properly maintained engines (something that Toyota says is an impossibility).

www.nhtsa.gov

This government-run web site includes owners’ report of sludge engine failures by year and by auto make and model. Search under “Problems and Issues” heading. NHTSA opened an investigation into the sludge problem in 2002 but closed the investigation in a matter of a few months because of Toyota’s announcement of the sludge policy.

MSN Autos site:
www.autos.msn.com/research/vip/reviews.aspx?modelid=9448&trimid=-1&src=VIP&tab=4

The above link is for the Avalon, but all the models covered by the sludge policy are reported to have significant engine problems. These ratings are based on reports from independent garages (not ones that are manufacturer affiliated) so they give an unbiased picture of problems that these garages see in vehicles.

www.yotarepair.com

A former Toyota mechanic acknowledges the problem. (this site dedicated to Toyota’s even has a “Sludge Zone”

www.autonews.com

AutoNews and several other publications included the announcement of the sludge problem in February and April 2002. Several publications had subsequent announcements.

www.autosafety.org

See complaints (all since AFTER the announcement of the sludge policy) on Toyota engines. Also has link to Auto News article

www.petitiononline.com/TMC2003/petition.html

As of this writing, over 375 signatures of owners who have experienced sludge and are dissatisfied with Toyotas response to their problem.

www.google.com

Do a web search for “Toyota Engine Sludge” and you find numerous reports of engine sludge in Toyota’s.

www.toyotatechs.com

View from a garage that specializes in Toyotas.

www.edmunds.com

See discussion of engine sludge on this forum, including one by Toyota rep (tmsusa1).

www.corolland.com

Includes discussion of sludge problem.

Numerous other websites with sludge reports include:

www.rateitall.com
www.toyotaownersclub.com
www.lexusownersclub.com
Toyota Owners Unite for Resolution web site
www.complaints.com
www.carsurvey.org
www.carreview.com
www.talkaboutautos.com
www.ripoffreport.com
www.realcaraudio.com
www.toyota-automotive-store.com
www.thecomplaintstation.com
www.toyonda.com
www.oilanalysis.com
www.toyotaworld.com

http://www.petitiononline.com/TMC2003/petition.html

"Toyota Owners Unite for Resolution"
Last edited {1}
6467


Toyota Sludge V-6 Engine

Frank Miller co -inv


  10/6/2001 10:59:36 AM

This problem is not isolated to just the Toyota V-6, it effects BMW, Chrysler, Lexus
it's not caused by oil and oil can't fix the problem.Don't use solvents to try and clean sludge, we have reports of engine seizing up, internal seal failures.www.auto-rx.com

 


6474

RE: Toyota Sludge V-6 Engine



  10/9/2001 12:15:23 AM

What then Frank, is the cause of this very common Toyota problem?

 

6561

RE: RE: Toyota Sludge V-6 Engine


james taylor

  10/2001 8:16:30 PM

i dont know

 




9185

RE: RE: RE: Toyota Sludge V-6 Engine



Charlene Blake


  3/18/2003 2:09:37 PM

As owners continue to contact me in frustration about the current ENGINE OIL SLUDGE customer support program at Toyota, I see some interesting trends. I am wondering if others can come forward to confirm.

First, there is a NATIONAL backorder of pistons and piston rings used in the sludge repair program. I have noted that one owner had to wait SIX WEEKS for these parts to come in. Another owner was told by her service manager that there is a "problem with getting supplies....the piston rings are on backorder."

This begs the question....WHY, if there are so few sludge victims out there, are the parts not available. I recall when Iwas involved in the Chrysler ABS defect debacle that the ABS parts were also on NATIONAL BACKORDER for months. Is Toyota actually being overwhelmed with repair need? Are these part delays directly related to the incidence of sludge cases? Perhaps some technicians will comment?

Now, what about the fouling of the emissions control components? Why are so many OXYGEN SENSORS going bad? Don't these components affect the air/fuel ratio in the vehicle? Why are CATALYTIC CONVERTERS going bad after sludge repairs? Why is it that so many fuel system related components are being replaced just before the onset of sludge? Spark plug are fouling. Owners report misfiring and poor engine performance. Some owners are reporting failed state emissions tests.

I have noted in the past the trend in sludge occurrence based on model year. I have noted that the 2000 vehicle...Sienna, Camry, etc., seems to be showing the earliest sludge. Are these owners just even worse at maintaining their vehicles, do you think? I think that notion is absurd! The 1999 model are showing the sludge around 36,000-40,000miles. The 2000 models show it much sooner.....25,000-36,000 miles. There are scores of vehicles which had the problem at UNDER 20,000 miles on the vehicle. This refutes Mike Michels', spokesperson at Toyota, claim that owners are not changing their oil for 20,000-30,000 miles! What a joke! He is the same fellow who says that Toyota is "unaware of engine oil sludge in vehicles which have been properly maintained."

There are a some owners who had sludge develop in their Sienna vehices within the first year of ownership and with less than 15,000 miles on the vehicle. Tell me what Mr. Michels has to say about those cases!

I see a trend on oil analysis for a greatly reduced initial oil viscosity even with less than 1,600 miles on the engine oil. When the engine oil gets closer to the outside limit of the owner's manual recommended oil change interval, the oil shows maximum nitration and almost equal oxidation. The oil is out of grade. It is essentially TOO THIN. Is this the precursor to SLUDGE development? Is there great heat and engine wear as the oil loses its lubrication effectiveness so early in the life of the oil????? Is the resulting high heat effectively COOKING THE OIL within?

An EXXON lubrication specialist mentioned "cold spots" where the acids can accumulate. Is there such an area within the oil passages of these vehicles? If so, would it first appear as VARNISH and baked on oil and later as SLUDGE if the condition is not corrected? Where might this varnish first appear? What would it look like?

Please, technicians and oil specialists, please chime in. We need a good, analytical discussion as we had a Edmund's before I the discussion was abruptly CLOSED.

Let's examine the recent reports of engine compartment fires after the affected engines throw a rod through the block. First of all, is it the thick sludge or even the precursor condition of reduced viscosity, fuel-contamined oil that results in the engine rod being thrown? THEN, what apsect of this condition would cause a CATASTROPHIC FIRE in the engine compartment? I have recently read such reports and I would like to know the connection.

Thank you for your CONSTRUCTIVE addition to this discussion from a technical, and analytical perspective. If you choose to use personal attacks in this discussion, I will forward them to the site maintainer for removal. Opposing technical views are welcome.

Charlene Blake
cblake@erols.com





9186

RE: RE: Toyota Sludge V-6 Engine


Charlene Blake

  3/18/2003 2:10:04 PM

  As owners continue to contact me in frustration about the current ENGINE OIL SLUDGE customer support program at Toyota, I see some interesting trends. I am wondering if others can come forward to confirm.

First, there is a NATIONAL backorder of pistons and piston rings used in the sludge repair program. I have noted that one owner had to wait SIX WEEKS for these parts to come in. Another owner was told by her service manager that there is a "problem with getting supplies....the piston rings are on backorder."

This begs the question....WHY, if there are so few sludge victims out there, are the parts not available. I recall when Iwas involved in the Chrysler ABS defect debacle that the ABS parts were also on NATIONAL BACKORDER for months. Is Toyota actually being overwhelmed with repair need? Are these part delays directly related to the incidence of sludge cases? Perhaps some technicians will comment?

Now, what about the fouling of the emissions control components? Why are so many OXYGEN SENSORS going bad? Don't these components affect the air/fuel ratio in the vehicle? Why are CATALYTIC CONVERTERS going bad after sludge repairs? Why is it that so many fuel system related components are being replaced just before the onset of sludge? Spark plug are fouling. Owners report misfiring and poor engine performance. Some owners are reporting failed state emissions tests.

I have noted in the past the trend in sludge occurrence based on model year. I have noted that the 2000 vehicle...Sienna, Camry, etc., seems to be showing the earliest sludge. Are these owners just even worse at maintaining their vehicles, do you think? I think that notion is absurd! The 1999 model are showing the sludge around 36,000-40,000miles. The 2000 models show it much sooner.....25,000-36,000 miles. There are scores of vehicles which had the problem at UNDER 20,000 miles on the vehicle. This refutes Mike Michels', spokesperson at Toyota, claim that owners are not changing their oil for 20,000-30,000 miles! What a joke! He is the same fellow who says that Toyota is "unaware of engine oil sludge in vehicles which have been properly maintained."

There are a some owners who had sludge develop in their Sienna vehices within the first year of ownership and with less than 15,000 miles on the vehicle. Tell me what Mr. Michels has to say about those cases!

I see a trend on oil analysis for a greatly reduced initial oil viscosity even with less than 1,600 miles on the engine oil. When the engine oil gets closer to the outside limit of the owner's manual recommended oil change interval, the oil shows maximum nitration and almost equal oxidation. The oil is out of grade. It is essentially TOO THIN. Is this the precursor to SLUDGE development? Is there great heat and engine wear as the oil loses its lubrication effectiveness so early in the life of the oil????? Is the resulting high heat effectively COOKING THE OIL within?

An EXXON lubrication specialist mentioned "cold spots" where the acids can accumulate. Is there such an area within the oil passages of these vehicles? If so, would it first appear as VARNISH and baked on oil and later as SLUDGE if the condition is not corrected? Where might this varnish first appear? What would it look like?

Please, technicians and oil specialists, please chime in. We need a good, analytical discussion as we had a Edmund's before I the discussion was abruptly CLOSED.

Let's examine the recent reports of engine compartment fires after the affected engines throw a rod through the block. First of all, is it the thick sludge or even the precursor condition of reduced viscosity, fuel-contamined oil that results in the engine rod being thrown? THEN, what apsect of this condition would cause a CATASTROPHIC FIRE in the engine compartment? I have recently read such reports and I would like to know the connection.

Thank you for your CONSTRUCTIVE addition to this discussion from a technical, and analytical perspective. If you choose to use personal attacks in this discussion, I will forward them to the site maintainer for removal. Opposing technical views are welcome.

Charlene Blake
cblake@erols.com


9187
RE: Toyota Sludge V-6 Engine
Charlene Blake

  3/18/2003 2:10:22 PM



As owners continue to contact me in frustration about the current ENGINE OIL SLUDGE customer support program at Toyota, I see some interesting trends. I am wondering if others can come forward to confirm.

First, there is a NATIONAL backorder of pistons and piston rings used in the sludge repair program. I have noted that one owner had to wait SIX WEEKS for these parts to come in. Another owner was told by her service manager that there is a "problem with getting supplies....the piston rings are on backorder."

This begs the question....WHY, if there are so few sludge victims out there, are the parts not available. I recall when Iwas involved in the Chrysler ABS defect debacle that the ABS parts were also on NATIONAL BACKORDER for months. Is Toyota actually being overwhelmed with repair need? Are these part delays directly related to the incidence of sludge cases? Perhaps some technicians will comment?

Now, what about the fouling of the emissions control components? Why are so many OXYGEN SENSORS going bad? Don't these components affect the air/fuel ratio in the vehicle? Why are CATALYTIC CONVERTERS going bad after sludge repairs? Why is it that so many fuel system related components are being replaced just before the onset of sludge? Spark plug are fouling. Owners report misfiring and poor engine performance. Some owners are reporting failed state emissions tests.

I have noted in the past the trend in sludge occurrence based on model year. I have noted that the 2000 vehicle...Sienna, Camry, etc., seems to be showing the earliest sludge. Are these owners just even worse at maintaining their vehicles, do you think? I think that notion is absurd! The 1999 model are showing the sludge around 36,000-40,000miles. The 2000 models show it much sooner.....25,000-36,000 miles. There are scores of vehicles which had the problem at UNDER 20,000 miles on the vehicle. This refutes Mike Michels', spokesperson at Toyota, claim that owners are not changing their oil for 20,000-30,000 miles! What a joke! He is the same fellow who says that Toyota is "unaware of engine oil sludge in vehicles which have been properly maintained."

There are a some owners who had sludge develop in their Sienna vehices within the first year of ownership and with less than 15,000 miles on the vehicle. Tell me what Mr. Michels has to say about those cases!

I see a trend on oil analysis for a greatly reduced initial oil viscosity even with less than 1,600 miles on the engine oil. When the engine oil gets closer to the outside limit of the owner's manual recommended oil change interval, the oil shows maximum nitration and almost equal oxidation. The oil is out of grade. It is essentially TOO THIN. Is this the precursor to SLUDGE development? Is there great heat and engine wear as the oil loses its lubrication effectiveness so early in the life of the oil????? Is the resulting high heat effectively COOKING THE OIL within?

An EXXON lubrication specialist mentioned "cold spots" where the acids can accumulate. Is there such an area within the oil passages of these vehicles? If so, would it first appear as VARNISH and baked on oil and later as SLUDGE if the condition is not corrected? Where might this varnish first appear? What would it look like?

Please, technicians and oil specialists, please chime in. We need a good, analytical discussion as we had a Edmund's before I the discussion was abruptly CLOSED.

Let's examine the recent reports of engine compartment fires after the affected engines throw a rod through the block. First of all, is it the thick sludge or even the precursor condition of reduced viscosity, fuel-contamined oil that results in the engine rod being thrown? THEN, what apsect of this condition would cause a CATASTROPHIC FIRE in the engine compartment? I have recently read such reports and I would like to know the connection.

Thank you for your CONSTRUCTIVE addition to this discussion from a technical, and analytical perspective. If you choose to use personal attacks in this discussion, I will forward them to the site maintainer for removal. Opposing technical views are welcome.

Charlene Blake
cblake@erols.com



10859

Toyota Sludge V-6 Engine

Bob Calvary


  12/8/2003 1:02:29 PM



I have a 2001 Camry LE 3.0 with 48,000 miles on it. I have ALWAYS changed the oil at 3,000 miles. 3 days ago I had drained the oil and when I started to pour the new oil into the motor I noticed a hard crusty film about 1/16" to 3/32" thick inside the valve cover oil opening. I scrapped it off and was careful not to let any get into the engine but the space where the oil flows into the engine was restricted so much that the oil drained slowly. I was sure it was part of the sludge problem but after seeing the valve cover removed (by Toyota) it looked like a new engine with my own eyes I wanted to let others know what the tech said. Where you pour the oil into the car is slightly cupped and a small amount of oil can't get into the engine so it sets there and cooks with the high temperature and forms the carbon crust. This will not hurt the engine because it is separated. I was please to find I didn't have the sludge problem but I want to let others know so they will not make the same mistake I did. bcalvary@tampabay.rr.com

 


11017


RE: Toyota Sludge V-6 Engine

John Petty


  1/3/2004 11:04:42 AM



 
We have a 2000 Sienna that had sludge problems and Toyota fixed the engine. But just 30,000 miles later the engine blows and they tell me that a piston broke and that that sometimes just happens. They also said that they did not replace any parts in the engine but just cleaned it out. Could the sludge from before caused that. No engine light ever came on. The only indicator was the oil light for a few miles. When it came on I pulled over and checked the oil and it was perfect. We have reciepts for every oil change and it was done regular.



11025


RE: Toyota Sludge V-6 Engine

Kevin Chinery



  1/5/2004 5:38:08 PM



MY 99 Camry just blew its engine, regular oil changes and only 51K miles on it!

 

"Toyota Owners Unite for Resolution"

http://www.petitiononline.com/TMC2003/petition.html

[This message was edited by Charlene Blake on Tue March 16 2004 at 10:49 PM.]

"Toyota Owners Unite for Resolution"
I have a 1998 toyota camry, over 100,000 miles, Toyota is rebuilding or replacing my engine next week. The service personal were great. I gathter as much information about my car as possible. Was only asked to show at least service for each year. Naturally my records are not that good, but I did manage to find oil changes and services from 2001 to present. It was excepted and under warranty, I am getting my engine rebuilt. It was diagonised with the oil gelling problem.
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