Amsoil EAO vs PureONE

quote:

Beta = 75 at 15 microns

So not a 15 micron ABSOLUTE as you said earlier.

That's a good filter, but now I am at the part that turns me off to Amsoil.

And I think if you do it once, you'll do it again. (not you specifically, a global you)

why claim an absurd 15 micron absolute rating when you have data that says a perfectly fine B75 at 15?

Why rely on a cheap screening test, 4 ball, as a basis for suitability when you have ngine run data that says it is better than some or even most?

My opinion, cherry picking to get tho the top of amsoils cherry picked list of attrtibutes.


At these levels of hyperbole and obfuscation, I have to wonder what is missed bu those without all of the raw data.

quote:

Originally posted by RobertC:
While the EaO is a good filter, it's not a great filter.

I'll sacrifice longevity for effectiveness. Else, why bother?

See, absolute. Absoliute is 100% efficient.

B75 is not 100%

quote:

Originally posted by RobertC:

quote:

Beta = 75 at 15 microns

So not a 15 micron ABSOLUTE as you said earlier.

This is what some AMSOIL literature says "• Absolute Efficiency Filtration @ 15 Microns Per ISO 4548-12 " Some other literature says "Near-perfect absolute efficiency rating" This is why the 98.7% at 15 microns per ISO 4548-12 is given. Industry standard data that is often hard to find with other filters, likely because they do not perform as well. AMSOIL even prints the data on every box and filter and compares to "Conventional brand Name Synthetic Blend Filters" at 82.3% and "Conventional Brand Name Paper Oil filters" at 39.39% . Don't you wish other companies would step up and do the same?

quote:

That's a good filter, but now I am at the part that turns me off to Amsoil.

And I think if you do it once, you'll do it again. (not you specifically, a global you)

why claim an absurd 15 micron absolute rating when you have data that says a perfectly fine B75 at 15?

Again, this is what some AMSOIL literature says "• Absolute Efficiency Filtration @ 15 Microns Per ISO 4548-12 " Some other AMSOIL literature says "Near-perfect absolute efficiency rating " This is why the 98.7% at 15 microns per ISO 4548-12 is given. Industry standard data that is often hard to find with other filters, likely because they do not perform as well.

quote:

Why rely on a cheap screening test, 4 ball, as a basis for suitability when you have ngine run data that says it is better than some or even most?

The whole industry relies on the 4 ball test as a screening tool. It frequently correlates with engine wear tests as seen in numerous papers when comparing similar oils. And as seen when BP/Castrol and Ashland Valvoline saw 4X and 8X less engine wear than Mobil 1, which correlated to AMSOIL's 4 ball wear test. The 4 ball wear test is only 1 test AMSOIL uses to compare oils. You need to look at the data sheets, white papers, and other comparisons. I would rather use a well formulated oil that has better 4 ball wear results than one not formulated as well that has poorer 4 ball results.

quote:

My opinion, cherry picking to get tho the top of amsoils cherry picked list of attrtibutes.


At these levels of hyperbole and obfuscation, I have to wonder what is missed bu those without all of the raw data.

No one in the industry has ever proven AMSOIL of false data or claims for 38 years. No oil company has ever shown their oil to be equal to or superior to AMSOIL.

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-En..._Specifications.aspx

These are the tests that are required for a motor oil to meet.

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-En...Mobil_1_Brochure.pdf

Honda tested several synthetic oils a few years ago and most failed miserably on the TEOST test. Amsoil probably would have done well, although when I asked why their ASL 5w30 was not recommended for HTO-06 they told me it might need a "booster" oook. They only recommend SSO for this spec.

If it wasn't for Mobil 1 being such a good oil and readily available, I'd probably be more inclined to use Amsoil. I've used Amsoil in the past and for my personal application it never outperformed Mobil 1.

quote:

Not All Oils Are Created Equal
Not all synthetic oils meet Acura’s HTO-06 standard.
In fact, using the wrong oil in a high-performance
turbocharged engine leads to accumulated deposits
in the engine, which reduces performance and
causes engine wear. In exhaustive testing conducted
by Acura engineers, Mobil 1 produced no critical
deposits on critical engine components such as
the seal ring, shaft, and the turbo walls.

quote:

Originally posted by Buster:
http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-En..._Specifications.aspx

These are the tests that are required for a motor oil to meet.

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-En...Mobil_1_Brochure.pdf

Honda tested several synthetic oils a few years ago and most failed miserably on the TEOST test. Amsoil probably would have done well, although when I asked why their ASL 5w30 was not recommended for HTO-06 they told me it might need a "booster" oook. They only recommend SSO for this spec.

If it wasn't for Mobil 1 being such a good oil and readily available, I'd probably be more inclined to use Amsoil. I've used Amsoil in the past and for my personal application it never outperformed Mobil 1.

quote:

Not All Oils Are Created Equal
Not all synthetic oils meet Acura’s HTO-06 standard.
In fact, using the wrong oil in a high-performance
turbocharged engine leads to accumulated deposits
in the engine, which reduces performance and
causes engine wear. In exhaustive testing conducted
by Acura engineers, Mobil 1 produced no critical
deposits on critical engine components such as
the seal ring, shaft, and the turbo walls.

Too bad Mobil 1 5W30 off the shelf got caught failing the test for certification after it was certified. But several other certified oils have also.

I'd like to clarify a few things.

quote:

Originally posted by Ebolamonkey:
I was, in fact, a previous Amsoil dealer and quit because I don't buy into the pyramid scheme of Amsoil and the way they do business.

Where is this pyramid scheme you talk about? Pyramid schemes have been outlawed for years and AMSOIL has been in business for 38 years. AMSOIL Dealers are independent businessmen who make their money by selling AMSOIL/WIX/Donaldson/Mann-Hummel/NGK/Injen/Mother's products to individuals, retail stores, commercial accounts and government agencies. They can also make some money when their dealers they trained make sales. Sounds like a regular small business to me.

quote:

To Summarize the arguments up to this point:

Amsoil dealers claim that Amsoil filter is the end all filter that lasts up to 25,000 miles or 1 year which ever comes first.

PureONE is one of the best filters that supposedly doesn't last as long (mileage) but does a better job of filtering for the duration of its intended use as compared to Amsoil's EaO. (Filter quality vs. Duration compromise)

I have yet to see any independent data to confirm that PureONE does a better job of filtering than the AMSOIL filter.

quote:

What if one doesn't drive anywhere near 25,000miles in one year duration and is it not economical to go Amsoil if this is the case?

Some quick lubes, independents and dealerships recommend changing oil and filters every 3,000 miles or 3 months, so a minimum of 4 oil filters, where AMSOIL would only require 1 filter, saving time and money and fewer oil filters in the landfill. My Chevy and Ford recommend 3,000 mile filter and oil changes for severe service, where AMSOIL recommends/warranties up 15,000 miles for most vehicles, saving time and money on 4 oil and filter changes.

quote:

Amsoil dealers have to fight or argue against conventional wisdom to sell because that is their job so keep that in mind regardless of what is the best for the end-user. This is how I was taught and this is how they all come.

. No fighting required. When you figure the time and money AMSOIL saves most people, they figure out what is best for them.

quote:

Amsoil has been around for a while now and if this were true then more people would be on the Amsoil team but they aren't because not everyone likes the idea of ordering oil from someone else through a pyramid scheme.

If you don't like ordering through a Dealer, you can order direct from AMSOIL or purchase from a retail store.

MLM. Same difference.

You can order through Amsoil at a huge mark up after you've seen the dealer prices. Tax and shipping still kills.

You cannot be a successful dealer if you doubt your product which is why I am not sitting on that side of the fence now as the grass is greener on this pasture.

quote:

Originally posted by Ebolamonkey:
MLM. Same difference.

Nope. Big difference. Educate yourself and learn the difference. http://www.amsoil.com/dealer/f...r/pyramid_scheme.pdf MLM is also known as Direct Marketing.

quote:

You can order through Amsoil at a huge mark up after you've seen the dealer prices. Tax and shipping still kills.

The price difference between wholesale (dealer price) and MSRP is only about 20%. For a $10 Preferred Customer Membership you can buy at wholesale for 6 months. When that runs out you can buy at 10% below MSRP. You pay tax on any motor oil. No shipping charge if you pick up at an AMSOIL warehouse.

quote:

You cannot be a successful dealer if you doubt your product which is why I am not sitting on that side of the fence now as the grass is greener on this pasture.

I don't doubt the product as I am a retired Shell Oil chemist.

quote:

Originally posted by RobertC:


Tim,

You claim EaOs are better because they use Donaldsons patent.

Where is the independent proof that says that one is the best?

You ask for independent testing of a PureOne.

Let's see Amsoils. (Paying for it makes it dependent.)

And your filter analysis is wrong. I know it is what you have been taught, by a sales guy. Go get an MLA III and then talk to me.

Donaldson tests their filter media for AMSOIL. Independent SouthWest Research Institute also tests AMSOIL's filters.

Any certified lab can verify AMSOIL's claim of 98.7% filter efficiency @15 microns per ISO 4548-12 as publicly stated on every AMSOIL filter box and filter. I'm sure several have, and none have disputed. And none have that level of efficiency and back it up with up to 25,000 mile/1 year warranty. A bit more believable, substantial and documented compared to an " e-mail response from the tech/engineer department" at Purolator. Compare to Purolators oil filter change recommendation "Purolator PureONE oil filters should be replaced every 3,000 miles or 3 months depending on the driving conditions - or unless otherwise specified by the vehicle's manufacturer." Seems pretty clear to me which one is the best.

RobertC - Try the Chevy Volt. No oil to change in that car.

quote:

Not true. AMSOIL is the only filter that has exclusively licensed Donaldson's proprietary synthetic nanofiber media for cars, light trucks and motorcycles. Thus it is better than any other filter on the market for the combination of filtration, flow, loading capacity, longevity and up to 25,000 miles/1 year warranty.

Hmm, I've always thought of Donaldson as an industrial filter manufacturer. I think they were bought by Parker recently, or did I dream that? There's been some consolidation recently to keep Pall from becoming the 900 lb gorilla.

Regardless, the requirements of industrial filters are much different from automotive filters. Industrial applications are much cooler, but not equivalent.

quote:

Originally posted by Ebolamonkey:
RobertC - Try the Chevy Volt. No oil to change in that car.

Soon as they make one comparable to my Dodge 4x4 Mega cab, Got to carry everything through 10 miles of beach sand to get to the vacation house.

And besides, it'll have bearings that need greasing, or not......

quote:

Originally posted by RobertC:

quote:

Originally posted by Ebolamonkey:
RobertC - Try the Chevy Volt. No oil to change in that car.

Soon as they make one comparable to my Dodge 4x4 Mega cab, Got to carry everything through 10 miles of beach sand to get to the vacation house.

And besides, it'll have bearings that need greasing, or not......

But no more oil at least except maybe for the tranny.

Brava!!!!!

Of course, I have an issue.

Well, not really, but you kow how it goes.

I work very hard to learn, with many resources not available to most. Well, they're available, but most aren't spending the money on them, so it's the same thing.

Most is a cheap sucker.

I sometimes see issues with carryover at my corporate lab. And they don't have a conveyor feeding the ICP, particle counter, or viscometer.

So that rings very true.

I get 2 kinds of reports. Raw data only, which is a heck of a way to learn, btw.

And results personally interpretted by folks trained personnally by one of the giants of the industry.

I don't send them car stuff though. Because it's not worth the money!

Well, except for that once when my wife decided to let a shop change her S60R's oil w out watching.

As for extending drains, yes, I'll do it in select cases. Non warranty and RULER backed, because I can do those cheap, I understand the limitations, and I am not relying on some drone to tell me what to do.

Lamont, you really ought to be patentable.

There, I just established my claim!

quote:

Originally posted by Lamont B Dumont:
So, regarding this wondrous proprietary medium, does Donaldson supply it exclusively to Amsoil, period, or is Amsoil the only automotive marketer? Is Amsoil's exclusively use of this medium based on the fact that no one else finds this medium particularly special for automotive applications? If this stuff is that good, you'd think that Donaldson would have shopped it around to marketers with more market-share so they could sell more of it.

Donaldson made an exclusive agreement with AMSOIL to provide this synthetic nanofiber filtration media for automotive, light truck and motorcycle applications.

As to why the other oil and filter companies do not make a 25,000 mile synthetic nanofiber filter, you'll have to ask them. My guess is they feel they make more money selling more 3,000 mile filters (PureOnes recommendation) than 25,000 mile filters.

quote:

Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
Donaldson made an exclusive agreement with AMSOIL to provide this synthetic nanofiber filtration media for automotive, light truck and motorcycle applications.

Everything these days can be considered Nano which weren't Nano 10 or 20 years ago but they were the same size then as they are now being 1-100nm (nanometers). For instance Carbon Black is Carbon Black but now-a-days you can get research money if you tie in "nano" to whatever it is you want to do so instead of saying Carbon Black which everyone already knows about you put "Nano Carbon Particles."

This gimmick works in academia and unfortunately also for consumers who are not aware of such marketing schemes.

On another note please look at the following images:

(Nanofiber - Go Ches Cain! not)

(Web-like appearance with reference (length) scale)

("Nano" fiber arrangement without length scale)

("Traditional" cellulose media without length scale)

How does a bunch of lines turn into a web-like structure when the apparent size of the cellulose substrate is smaller on the lines as compared to the web-like picture? I am confused.

BTW, PureONE is #1!
http://www.bestcovery.com/puro...r-pureone-oil-filter

quote:

Originally posted by johnpr3:


Tim, do you mean the DONALDSON synthetic nanofiber filters that AMSOIL sells?

No, Donaldson does not make light truck, automotive and motorcycle synthetic nanofiber filters. AMSOIL uses the Donaldson filter media only. The rest of the filter is from other suppliers.

Tim, you repeated a re-phrased version the original assertion without providing any of the requested detail. There's no point in responding until you have some news.

'I don't know' is always an acceptable answer when it happens to be the truth. It's always stood me well.

Not patentable, but as a fictional character, I could probably be covered by a copyright.

quote:

Originally posted by Lamont B Dumont:
Tim, you repeated a re-phrased version the original assertion without providing any of the requested detail. There's no point in responding until you have some news.

'I don't know' is always an acceptable answer when it happens to be the truth. It's always stood me well.

What specifically did you want to know?

Your theory is all wrong. The large particles just sit on the surface of the nanofiber web. Since the nanofiber web has several times the number of pores and surface area compared to a microfiber web, it can trap more particles yet provide more flow. Donaldson has done extended oil filter intervals for 20 years with this design and AMSOIL has marketed extended 25,000 mile oil filter extended change intervals for 5 years for autos, light trucks and up to 15,000 miles in motorcycles. And SouthWest Research Institute in San Antonio has extensively tested these filters. They work as advertised. Thousands of used oil analysis also confirm.

Ebola, can't you see?

Large particles sit on top of the media in a Donaldson paptent amsoil Ea filter. They never bridge or agglonmerate.

You see, they know they're trapped by a magical filter, and they'd never impede flow in any logical way.

It's magic. You need to just press the "I believe" button.

And remember, Eas are good for 25,000. PureOnes for 3,000.

Except when they're not.

You think msoil marketers get togther and sing songs like Mary Kay people do?

No magic. The much smaller nanofibers just filter better than microfibers, hold more particles, and flow better as explained: http://www.asia.donaldson.com/...talibrary/050272.pdf . And patented: http://www.google.com/patents?...v=onepage&q=&f=false .

Again I have to call attention to two diagrams:



and Figure 3 on this pdf: http://www.asia.donaldson.com/...talibrary/050272.pdf

2nd picture is twice the magnification of the first but the two looks fundamentally different. If you reduce the size of the Figure 3 from the PDF and transpose or do a side-to side comparison you will find it very difficult to get a good match.

There is also something inconsistent between the graph show on the PDF and Amsoil's numbers in filtration efficiency. Look at Figure 4 on the PDF and compare it to these numbers:



Amsoil is still nominal at 7 microns but here it shows that a nanofiber oil filter is nominal between 0.00 and 0.20 microns. How does that work?

quote:

Originally posted by RobertC:
It's magic. You need to just press the "I believe" button.

You mean this?

No, Easy buttons actually do what we think they do.

(cheap entertainment.)

quote:

Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
No magic. The much smaller nanofibers just filter better than microfibers, hold more particles, and flow better as explained: http://www.asia.donaldson.com/...talibrary/050272.pdf . And patented: http://www.google.com/patents?...v=onepage&q=&f=false .

The paper is for air filters. Not directly applicable. else we'd be seeing depth media air filters, but we don't.

As for patents. No proof of workability is required. Perpetual motion machines have patents.

Means nothing.

AND, since the patent covers air filtration, how does it apply to oil?

Is the spun coating tough enough to stand the flow regime?

Compare and contrast:
Velocities
Volume
Fluid dynamics is what I am after

Particle make up

Forces applied by the fluid. (Consider air a fluid in this case)

quote:

Originally posted by RobertC:

quote:

Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
No magic. The much smaller nanofibers just filter better than microfibers, hold more particles, and flow better as explained: http://www.asia.donaldson.com/...talibrary/050272.pdf . And patented: http://www.google.com/patents?...v=onepage&q=&f=false .

The paper is for air filters. Not directly applicable. else we'd be seeing depth media air filters, but we don't.

Similar synthetic nanofiber media. Similar results.

quote:

As for patents. No proof of workability is required. Perpetual motion machines have patents.

Means nothing.

Donaldson has proven the technology 20 years. You can prove it to yourself with extended oil drains and UOA.

quote:

AND, since the patent covers air filtration, how does it apply to oil?

Similar synthetic nanofiber media, similar results. Proven by 20 years of used oil analysis.

quote:

Is the spun coating tough enough to stand the flow regime?

. Of course. Proven for the past 20 years by Donaldson, 5 years by AMSOIL. Tested by Independent World Renown SouthWest Research Institute .

quote:

Compare and contrast:
Velocities
Volume
Fluid dynamics is what I am after

Particle make up

Forces applied by the fluid. (Consider air a fluid in this case)

These are automotive, truck and motorcycle filters. So the fluid dynamics would be in those ranges. Also defined by ISO 4548-12. Donaldson is the expert. The technology has proven itself for 20 years. Contact them for more details.

quote:

Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
Donaldson is the expert. The technology has proven itself for 20 years. Contact them for more details.

Aka you don't know. Just say so, contact them on behave of us to find out these questions we raised, post the reply e-mail and be done with it. Is that so hard to do or do you simply not want to admit that you just don't know the answers for which we seek? I am guessing the latter because good ole Lamont B Dumont hasn't chimed in since his last post.

quote:

Originally posted by Ebolamonkey:

quote:

Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
Donaldson is the expert. The technology has proven itself for 20 years. Contact them for more details.

Aka you don't know. Just say so, contact them on behave of us to find out these questions we raised, post the reply e-mail and be done with it. Is that so hard to do or do you simply not want to admit that you just don't know the answers for which we seek? I am guessing the latter because good ole Lamont B Dumont hasn't chimed in since his last post.

I don't know what? If you want more details than are readily available and might be proprietary, contact the manufacturer of the media (Donaldson). The media has proven itself for 20 years, so I am satisfied it works as advertised. If you aren't, you can contact Donaldson with your specific questions.

quote:

Originally posted by Ebolamonkey:
Amsoil is still nominal at 7 microns but here it shows that a nanofiber oil filter is nominal between 0.00 and 0.20 microns. How does that work?

You seem to be confused again in thinking a nominal rating is 1/2 of the measured efficiency of a filter. Nominal ratings of filters are just the average pore size in the media as measured with a micrometer. Due to poor reproducibility, this measurement is pretty much meaningless.

The AMSOIL full flow synthetic nanofiber oil filter will filter some submicron particles for up to 25,000 miles, the AMSOIL synthetic nanofiber bypass filter will filter more up to 60,000 miles, and the AMSOIL synthetic nanofiber air filter will also filter less than 1 micron particles for up to 100,000 miles.

Have you guys not read the Ea synthetic nanofiber filter brochure at http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g2202.pdf ?

quote:

Donaldson is the expert

Really, "the" (not "an") expert? So nobody at Pall, Fram, Purolator, Baldwin, Hastings, Parker Hannifin, Wix or any other filter manufacturer knows anything of value about filter media? Their filters are all crap?

I don't deny that Donaldson has some folks who know a little bit about filtration. I just find it more than a little insulting that Tim insists that Donaldson is the ONLY company that knows anything of value.

But that ignorant attitude is consistent with the Amsoil Insecurity. It's not enough to say "This is a good product that, used properly, can extend the life of your engine relative to conventional mineral-based oils." Instead we get bombarded with this sad, needy insistence that "The brand I sell is not only the best, it's the only one that is any good at all!"

Data is cherry-picked to 'support' the wild claims and anyone who brings conflicting data forward is demonized.

It's a bit like applying the techniques of a store-front Fundamentalist preacher to lubricant sales: "Buy this oil lest you condemn your engine to everlasting damnation!"

Yup.

quote:

Originally posted by Lamont B Dumont:

quote:

Donaldson is the expert

Really, "the" (not "an") expert?

Really. Donaldson is the expert on their synthetic nanofiber filters. You really think someone at Fram knows as much about Donaldson's synthetic nanofiber filters as Donaldson?

quote:

I don't deny that Donaldson has some folks who know a little bit about filtration. I just find it more than a little insulting that Tim insists that Donaldson is the ONLY company that knows anything of value.

Please show where I've ever insisted that.

quote:

But that ignorant attitude is consistent with the Amsoil Insecurity.

Never heard of that one before. Why would AMSOIL be insecure? They make the best oil with the longest extended parts and labor warranty in the business. No one else comes close or proven otherwise. AMSOIL is the "First in Synthetics" The others fall behind. They increase sales every year while the others lose sales.

quote:

It's not enough to say "This is a good product that, used properly, can extend the life of your engine relative to conventional mineral-based oils." Instead we get bombarded with this sad, needy insistence that "The brand I sell is not only the best, it's the only one that is any good at all!"

I've never heard that the other brands were no good at all. I've always maintained that if you follow the manufactures specifications for oil and filters, you'll be fine. But if you want to extend you oil and filter changes, then AMSOIL has the longest and best parts and labor warranty in the business and really the only game in town.

quote:

Data is cherry-picked to 'support' the wild claims and anyone who brings conflicting data forward is demonized.

What data was cherry picked? None of the other oil or filter companies have mentioned this or said AMSOIL's data was incorrect.

quote:

It's a bit like applying the techniques of a store-front Fundamentalist preacher to lubricant sales: "Buy this oil lest you condemn your engine to everlasting damnation!"

Never heard of this from AMSOIL, but the AMSOIL haters usually say this when they run out of arguments against the product.

Amsoil is very smart.

Thay never publish data where they can be criticized.

They also don't seem to publish the raw data.

That is cherry picking.

quote:

Originally posted by RobertC:
Amsoil is very smart.

Thay never publish data where they can be criticized.

They also don't seem to publish the raw data.

That is cherry picking.

And this differs from any other oil company in what way?

Tim - Fred Astair had nothing on you; you dance dance around, hitting your intended marks and avoiding the soft spots at will. Donaldson is the best because they know the most about their own technology? Fram is no good because they aren't experts on Donaldson's technology?

Do you have any idea how ridiculous that makes you sound?

While there's been darn little useful information presented, I do enjoy your Daffy-esque sputtering gyrations, they are quite entertaining.

Definitely "Duck Season".

quote:

Originally posted by Pablo:

quote:

Originally posted by RobertC:
Amsoil is very smart.

Thay never publish data where they can be criticized.

They also don't seem to publish the raw data.

That is cherry picking.

And this differs from any other oil company in what way?

they aren't on here trying to dispute it.

quote:

Originally posted by RobertC:

quote:

Originally posted by Pablo:

quote:

Originally posted by RobertC:
Amsoil is very smart.

Thay never publish data where they can be criticized.

They also don't seem to publish the raw data.

That is cherry picking.

And this differs from any other oil company in what way?

they aren't on here trying to dispute it.

So then you admit that Amsoil DOES indeed cherry pick data!

quote:

So then you admit that Amsoil DOES indeed cherry pick data!

I never said that. AND You know it.

Tell me this, why is it that Amsoil bugs you so much? Such hatred? Just pure hate. Give it a rest. If you don't like the product, don't use it. Arguing about a product you will never use is about as dumb as a bag of hammers.