electrostatic oil cleaning system

Hi Dipen,
A couple of things to remember is that not all oils are full of additaves that get used up. I will speak in generalities here but for my industry I rarely condemn an oil because the additave package has been depleated to the point where it has to be replaced. Since we implemented oil changes based on condition (condition based maintenance) several years ago. We have had some applications that have lasted for 5+ years without an oil change. Our oils are normally changed out because of contamination ingress or generation, some contaminents are not easily filtered out. Rarely do we change the oil because of oxidation by-products the real selling attribute of the electrostatic systems.
These types of systems make sence for some industries, (you mentioned hydraulics-- where sludge and varnish are REAL issues) I have not found the need in my field.
I get suspicious when someone claims that they can selectively charge particles that are contaminents or wear when some of the contaminents can actually be additaves in other lubricants.
regards.....

Electrostatic filters are great things but they operate very slowly and lose effectiveness as moisture content rises. There are some reports that electrostatic filtration will remove bi-products of oxidation and can filter to well beloew 0.5 microns. There are some plastic injection mouldings machines that actually use electrostatic filtration (I think, but don't quote me, Kawaguchi are one). As for the additives, in my opinion, they can cause more problems then if they were absent. But if you know what you are doing, sweetening the oil with new additives can be effective for life extension, although I would advise extreme caution with this approach.
Oils theoretically could last forever in the right conditions. But in my opinion, there are too many factors such as oxidation that cause a chemical breakdown of the oil. So you can keep removing the contamination but eventually, there will be none left.

Electrostatic oil cleaners are excellent contamination control devices for some applications. You seem to have a good grasp of the basics. As one post pointed out, they excel in areas where degradation mechanisms are at play causing deposits.

Although they do not work well in the presence of water, you will have much more urgent concerns if you have a high water content in your oil. Electrostatic oil cleaners continue to work well again once your water problem is under control.

But, no contamination control device will take the place of oil analysis and conditioned-based oil changes.

Finally, I encourage you to read some of Dr. Sasaki's papers and research on electrostatic oil cleaning for additional information. He has done exhaustive research on the subject and his findings have been widely published.

Gents,
I have just been reading about Balanced Charge Particle (BCP) system for removing oxidation particles, varnish etc from compressor oil systems, does anyone have experience with this new technology which is claimed to be superior for this type of problem?

Regards,
CB500

The concept of agglomerating particles through an electric field was first developed in Japan in the mid-1970’s. A high DC charge was passed through the oil, quickly agglomerating the particles and significantly improving the efficiency of filters. Particle agglomeration often occurs when energy is imparted onto fluid, but quickly dissipates when the energy source disappears. Since a high charge was used, the oils became very clean, very quickly. Although this technology was patented, a commercial product was never developed because the scientists could not figure out a method to safely do this to oil without a chance of additional problems occurring. The applied charge remained on the particles to keep them combined together well after the fluid passed over the electrodes. This creates a host of potential problems, such as erratic, unpredictable particle agglomeration in unwanted areas of the lubrication system, or accelerated oil oxidation. Of even greater concern is a release of the accumulated charges in the form of a spark causing safety issues.

"Balanced Charged Agglomeration" is not a science definition but a marketing term. Although it is foreseeable that this technology could be applied in a range of other markets, I believe that significantly more research needs to be done on the technology before it can safely be applied to lubricants.

Before you purchase the technology, read some independent scientific papers and consult with your oil supplier.

hi Dipen,

It is true that hydraulic oil can be used indefinitely provided you keep it superclean and free from moisture, dissolved gases and air. However, the Electrostatic system is not the right equipment for ensuring the above. You should use the Klarol Oil Cleaning system for keeping the oil free from contamination.

quote:

Originally posted by Dipen:
Dear all,
I have recently come across some Japanese make Electrostatic oil cleaning system.I works on following principle:
Oil(contaminated) is passed through high voltage which charges the suspended dirt particles, and charged particles are pushed towards positive and negative electrodes. In the process contaminants get entrapped in collecter medium and thus all particles even of submicronic size is removed from oil.
Mainly used for any oil of less than 220 cst., specially popular in hydraulic oil case.
Now, the manufacturer claims that after cleaning the oil from this filtration system and adding 10% of fresh charge, same oil can be used for forever by repeating the same process.
Please let me know if somebody have come across this type of filtration system, and what would be the effect on oil after few repetetive cleaning cycles.As according to me after continuous use,depetion in additive package can't be make up by adding onle 10% of fresh charge.
Pl. give comments on any aspect of this particular system.

Regards

Dear Dipen

I have been offering Oil Cleaning Services to many Plastic Items manufacturing Units with Off Line Mechanical Filtration Unit fitted with Laser Particle Counter and it cleans the Oil up to required Oil Cleanliness level Automatically and prit out the report indicating Oil Cleanliness level before and After Filtration. This report indicates Particle Count of each range ( 5 to 15, 15 to 25, 25 to 50, 50 to 100 and > 100 ) and also indicates oil cleanliness level in terms of NAS / ISO.
As per my experience Electrostatically Oil Cleaning is normally known as Bleed and Feed Type Filtration. That means when you filter the Oil Additives are also removed along with contaminants and you need to replenish it. Unless you have a right source of this additive supplier you should not add such additive peckage with out full information. This may damage the Oil. I therefore strongly recommond you to use Mechanical Filters and get the Oil Cleanliness level within the prescribed Oil Cleanliness level only. Do not Polish the Oil.

V.S.Dave

How many times that the same oil can be purified by Electrostatic oil cleaner?

Apart from millipore test any other test that gives about the afterclean results?

Does this system can also be used for thermic fluid oil?

Dipen,

My experience of visiting many user sites of electrostatic filter systems is that the oil life is extended but water and acid in the applications is the limiting factor. In must user manuals water above 400 ppm water or acid above 2 will cause problems. However, I do disgree that these systems strip additives. My recommendation is to buy a dehydrator to use with the electrostatic and monitor TAN acid in oil tests. You do not need to change the oil until the oil analysis indicating negative oil condition. My company can provide the dehydrator or another technology that can handle the water and acid in the same system.

Hi Dipen
The electrostatic cleaning system is safe to use for any length of time.It has no effect on the oil.The process cannot remove any dissolved components of the oil, so additives are not affected.The idea of using oil forever is not entirely wrong, because in a "clean","cool" and "dry" hydraulic system there is no possibility of oil dterioration.

In such cases, 10% addition is sufficient.This is 10% every year, and not just once in a lifetime.This refreshes some additives which deplete by age. The idea is that oxidation is catalysed by metal wear particles in the presence of moisture, and heat.If you remove the causes, like particles by the Electrostatic system, and control your temperature, the oil stays as good as new. Also, the main property of oil, which is viscosity, never changes unless you mix two oils, or oil and water.

Take 10% as the best case, worse cases may require 20%, but if controls are excercised, complete oil changes are never required.

The parameter to check is Total Acid number, and it can be kept under control for years together.

Mukesh,

It's quite obviuous that additives gets depleated over a period of time.Since it's a simple tribochemical reaction,additives will not be completely removed from systems,adding 10% every time may lead to overdosage and subsequently results in other performance problems......

Bala.

Electrostatic oil cleaning does not remove soluble additives. There is tremendous research backing this up.

Please clearify my doubt about effect of electric charges on metallic oxides in the form of additives which imparts main properties to the Oil. How they will not be affected ? Can any one through some light on this ?

quote:

Originally posted by Greg Livingstone:
Electrostatic oil cleaning does not remove soluble additives. There is tremendous research backing this up.

There is a reply to the question of removal of metallic oxides here in this forum, by Greg..
The process is Electro STATIC not ElectroLYTIC. Hence dissolved components cannot be affected. In a static field salt will not separate out of water, for instance.

Only particles, being separate from the oil, will be separated out. There is a wealth of trial evidence to prove that dissolved additives cannot be removed. Only "foreign" particles are removed.

Dear Bala,
I have only talked about addition of new oil, from same manufacturer, same specs. Hence the only problem with frequent addition would be overflow of oil, not overdosage of additives.

Your doubt would be valid if I had talked about addition of additive package separately. But that is not the case.

quote:

Originally posted by Bala:
Mukesh,

It's quite obviuous that additives gets depleated over a period of time.Since it's a simple tribochemical reaction,additives will not be completely removed from systems,adding 10% every time may lead to overdosage and subsequently results in other performance problems......

Bala.

Bala, additives deplete over time for many reasons and adding top up oil will help maintain adequate additives in you oil. Since the new oil containes the same amximum ratio of additives this ratio can never be more than it was to start with some will be depleted and the new oil will have the original makeup so the net will always be less than the whole unless you are somehow losing just basestock.

Thanks Mukesh for clarification for Electrostatic and Electrolytic status of salts. Could you please clarify how electostatic cleaning will not be considered as Electrolytic ?
When NaCl is dissolved in water and currant is passed through the solution, NaCl is sepeared out by chemical reaction then why not other salts ( Additives which are similar metallic salts !! ) in similar way ?
Can you clarify the differance between Electrostatic and Electro Lytic solutions ? What is the differance ?

On One hand you say that soluble Additives in the form of salts are there in the oil and oil is chatged with electricity then when you pass electric currant through it why these salts will not be affected ?

I have learned from many users of electrostatic cleaners, that Oil is loosing it viscosity and it becomes thin, could it be because of depleation of any viscosity Index improver ?

quote:

Originally posted by Mukesh:
There is a reply to the question of removal of metallic oxides here in this forum, by Greg..
The process is Electro STATIC not ElectroLYTIC. Hence dissolved components cannot be affected. In a static field salt will not separate out of water, for instance.

Only particles, being separate from the oil, will be separated out. There is a wealth of trial evidence to prove that dissolved additives cannot be removed. Only "foreign" particles are removed.

Dear Dipen,
Now even after some lively discussion,perhaps you have still not got the satisfactory reply,opinions of experts differ in a large way.
Electrostatic cleaners are good as they remove particles even smaller than 1 micron, but even if the moisture in the oil is more than 600 ppm or 0.06 % the cleaning machine will stop. Its Beta ratio is not mentioned as it is very slow.
With regular 10% topping up you cannot continue the same oil for ever with this machine.Moisture present upto 600 ppm in oil itself is harmful and accelerates oxidation deteriorating the quality of oil gradually.
Yes, posting by Samnugger is worth more attention here. Klarol Oil Cleaning System is capable of making the slogan "No More Change of oil" a reality by removing solid particles upto 1 micron and moisture 100%.

Hymat,

You are mixing apples and oranges, all in an effort to undermine usefulness of electrostatic filters, which I see you don’t represent, and which technology is direct competitor to the technology that you are peddling. Your argument by comparing an inorganic salt of a strong acid and a strong base that fully dissociate in water (Na+ and Cl- ions) to stable non-dissociable organic molecules, is completely missing the mark. The fact is that transformer oil has antioxidant additives added to base oil, and is successfully for more than 100 years used as INSULATING fluid in transformers. This is possible because additives dissolved in oil are not dissociating on ions (like the inorganic compound that you offered as an example). Instead, they become a part of hydrocarbon aliphatic or aromatic molecules, and therefore do not conduct electricity.

Also, I have never heard that electrostatic filters affect viscosity in any form or shape. Can you please provide some more info regarding the observed oil thinning that you mentioned in your previous comment?

By the way, I am end user, and don’t represent any company and/or any product, but keep my mind open to learning and evaluating new products and new technologies.

John

Dear Mr. Jhon
Thank you very much for clearing my doubts. But my customers who run the Electrostatic Cleaners for Months together have complained that Oil is becoming thin and gets oxidised faster and therefore I had mentioned it in my previous message.
Thanks again for your guidance and clarifying my doubt.

Dear Mr. Dave,
Electrostatic Oil cleaning is most popular in Plastics industry. Cincinnati Milacron also make Electrostatic Liquid Cleaners- and they are a big name in Injection Moulding.
Electrostatic Oil cleaning is the best if not fastest method of cleaning oil to remove particles and sludge or varnish which filters can not remove. It is impartial to all particles and does not selectively charge particles, as someone has queried elsewhere in this forum. If you have solid particles as additives, like in Moly Sulfide dispersions, they may also be removed, If filters down to that size 4-5 microns are used they will also remove them.

The difference in filters and electrosatatic cleaners is their capacity, and ability to address smaller particles. Filters are cost effective up to 10 microns or so, and electrostatic cleaners are a one size fits all type device, where cost is not a function of particle size. Particles below 10 microns ar where electrostatic cleaners are more cost effective.

Regards,
Mukesh

quote:

Originally posted by Hymat Services:

quote:

Originally posted by Dipen:
Dear all,
I have recently come across some Japanese make Electrostatic oil cleaning system.I works on following principle:
Oil(contaminated) is passed through high voltage which charges the suspended dirt particles, and charged particles are pushed towards positive and negative electrodes. In the process contaminants get entrapped in collecter medium and thus all particles even of submicronic size is removed from oil.
Mainly used for any oil of less than 220 cst., specially popular in hydraulic oil case.
Now, the manufacturer claims that after cleaning the oil from this filtration system and adding 10% of fresh charge, same oil can be used for forever by repeating the same process.
Please let me know if somebody have come across this type of filtration system, and what would be the effect on oil after few repetetive cleaning cycles.As according to me after continuous use,depetion in additive package can't be make up by adding onle 10% of fresh charge.
Pl. give comments on any aspect of this particular system.

Regards

Dear Dipen

I have been offering Oil Cleaning Services to many Plastic Items manufacturing Units with Off Line Mechanical Filtration Unit fitted with Laser Particle Counter and it cleans the Oil up to required Oil Cleanliness level Automatically and prit out the report indicating Oil Cleanliness level before and After Filtration. This report indicates Particle Count of each range ( 5 to 15, 15 to 25, 25 to 50, 50 to 100 and > 100 ) and also indicates oil cleanliness level in terms of NAS / ISO.
As per my experience Electrostatically Oil Cleaning is normally known as Bleed and Feed Type Filtration. That means when you filter the Oil Additives are also removed along with contaminants and you need to replenish it. Unless you have a right source of this additive supplier you should not add such additive peckage with out full information. This may damage the Oil. I therefore strongly recommond you to use Mechanical Filters and get the Oil Cleanliness level within the prescribed Oil Cleanliness level only. Do not Polish the Oil.

V.S.Dave

Electrostatic cleaning is STATIC, meaning that the main characteristic is ZERO current, and a high voltage.

Electrolytic is characterised by high current and low voltages (comparativley) There is a high energy input to break down the ionic components, and this is reflected by a high current, the product Volts x Amps is very high, reflected by large scale transport of ions to their preferred electrodes.The current is by a dissociation of ions, and this consumes high energy.

The electrostatic cleaners have transformers which cannot provide this high energy, they are only potential transformers.. if a current builds up, the voltage will drop drastically and the transformer will trip on a safety device. So, to carry on with your salt example, the electrostatic field will carry a particle of salt to the collectors, it just cannot provide the energy to break it up into sodium and chlorine ions and carry these ions to the electrodes. The product Volts x Amps is zero as current is zero.

Just look at the other common use of this technology - electrostatic precipitators for flue gases from chimneys, they simply drop out the soot particles, the flue gas outlet is not chemically affected....otherwise the high temperature and high energy conditions are ripe incubators for dissociating oxides in the flue gase.But here again energy input from the electrostatic device is just not sufficient to cause any dissciation of oxides in flue gases..

I hope this makes the difference in Electrostatic and Electrolytic clear..

The static process just provides a field condition to separate out particles which tend to stick to "collector" media provided between the electrodes.like a balloon rubbed on a silk cloth will stick to a wall, or a pieces of paper will stick to a comb when you rub it on dry hair.

Viscosity of oil is changed only if two oils are mixed, or temporarily by temperature. The thinnig that you may have heard about is probably removal of sludge or polymerised matter which makes the oil appear clearer and lighter. Measured viscosity will not change by electrostatic cleaning.

Regrds,
Mukesh

quote:

Originally posted by Hymat Services:
Thanks Mukesh for clarification for Electrostatic and Electrolytic status of salts. Could you please clarify how electostatic cleaning will not be considered as Electrolytic ?
When NaCl is dissolved in water and currant is passed through the solution, NaCl is sepeared out by chemical reaction then why not other salts ( Additives which are similar metallic salts !! ) in similar way ?
Can you clarify the differance between Electrostatic and Electro Lytic solutions ? What is the differance ?

On One hand you say that soluble Additives in the form of salts are there in the oil and oil is chatged with electricity then when you pass electric currant through it why these salts will not be affected ?

I have learned from many users of electrostatic cleaners, that Oil is loosing it viscosity and it becomes thin, could it be because of depleation of any viscosity Index improver ?

quote:

Originally posted by Mukesh:
There is a reply to the question of removal of metallic oxides here in this forum, by Greg..
The process is Electro STATIC not ElectroLYTIC. Hence dissolved components cannot be affected. In a static field salt will not separate out of water, for instance.

Only particles, being separate from the oil, will be separated out. There is a wealth of trial evidence to prove that dissolved additives cannot be removed. Only "foreign" particles are removed.

Thanks for your clarifications. Can you please suggest to get the Oil cleaned up to NAs - 8 Level how many hours you have to run Electrostatic Cleaner? In short what is the clewaning capacity in Ltrs/ hr ? ( say to clean the oil from NAS - 12 to NAS - 8 Level ) and what will be the power consuption ?

With cleaning rates of 2.8 gallons per hour and 5.6 gallons per hour, Electrostatic Filtration Systems are designed to be a permanent installed unit attached to a circulation system in a kidney loop configuration. The technology is based on varnish removal process being used to remove oxidation by-products in a slow almost reverse process of the way they were created. In a permanent installed system speed doesn’t really matter, thus the incredible results speak for themselves.

I have seen where companies sell the service of varnish removal to a customer, but it requires several electrostatic filtration systems in line to produce quick results. An important thing to remember when trying to “Sell the Service”, once your done and you remove the electrostatic systems, the customers ISO Cleanliness Codes will increase. In this case you show the customer your service works. However, the cost of the Electrostatic Filtrations Systems are very low compared to several service cleanings and require almost no maintenance. This makes “Selling the Electrostatic Units” as a solution very interesting for end user customers who already have enough to do

I find confusing viws on properties of oil and working of electrostatic oil cleaner.
Basicallt electrostatic oil cleaner major application is for filtration of hydraulic oil which hardly contains 5 % additives. Secondly the high voltage applied is 10-12 KV which is much less than break down voltage of oil. Electrostatic oil cleanerremoves only the suspended particles in oil and does not in any way affect physical or chemical properties of oil.
The electrostatic oil cleaning is slower process than mechanical filtration. However, the cost of fine filtration even upto 5 microns using mechanical filtration is expensive operation as the dirt holding capacity of fine filtration elements is very limited and its price much higher as compared to collector media of electrostatic oil cleaner. We have achieved results uptp NAS class 5 cleanliness by using EOC. Hence EOC is an effective off-line cleaning equipment for hydraulic systems/machines.

Dear Prabhakar,

Electrostatic Oil cleaning system cannot have any beta ratio as i does not have any filter element or media through which oil is passed for filtration. In comparison to mechanical filtration where the dirt holding capacity of filter elements is limited, the collector media of electostatic oil cleaner collects almost 10 times the dirt and hence it is one of the most economical ways of off line filtration.

Pradeep

Dear mr. Greg,
Can you please give me some idea of availability of Dr. Sasaki's papers and research on electrostatic oil cleaning for additional information, as you suggested.
Thanks and Regards,

SREENIVAS NEMANI

quote:

Originally posted by Greg Livingstone:
Electrostatic oil cleaners are excellent contamination control devices for some applications. You seem to have a good grasp of the basics. As one post pointed out, they excel in areas where degradation mechanisms are at play causing deposits.

Although they do not work well in the presence of water, you will have much more urgent concerns if you have a high water content in your oil. Electrostatic oil cleaners continue to work well again once your water problem is under control.

But, no contamination control device will take the place of oil analysis and conditioned-based oil changes.

Finally, I encourage you to read some of Dr. Sasaki's papers and research on electrostatic oil cleaning for additional information. He has done exhaustive research on the subject and his findings have been widely published.

Can Electrostatic Oil cleaning System be used in electroplating line ?

Surya - Interesting question.
My understanding is that the contaminant and filtrate must posess two key characteristics for electrostatic cleaning to be effective:
The filtrate (oil or gas) must have a high dielectric strength and the contaminant must have a low resistivity. It seems to reason that plating baths are too conductive to be cleaned using dielectric fields.

Dipen ,
what you need to do is to take professional help on filteration rather than investing in it. As you need to also see the pay back.

Also i have personally seen and heard of M/s Hymat - Gentelman Mr Dave ( 91+9324414802 ) who is involved in this work . This may sound as marketing message - but intention is to help the person who posted the message , as by now he is far away for sure from importing the unit.

There are compnaies in India (Pune) dealing in similar equipments (ELECTROSTATIC) - so if you are in india you can call them.

But for sure you need to have acess to a good lab.

Mr. V.S.Dave. The difference is that water is a highly polar material which will become an electrolyte any time a dissociative salt is dissolved in the solution. Oil is both non polar and unless the water content (normally <<1%) is extreme can not form an electrolyte. the result is the material used for additives will not be effected by electrostatic fields.

for references write gmunson@fluid-assets.com

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Pradeep:

"The electrostatic oil cleaning is slower process than mechanical filtration."

Comments: Not true. The particle separation process depends on flow, and most electrostatic filters are LOW FLOW systems for a reason. That’s why they can collect small particles. If you’d run high flow through them then the efficiency would tremendously drop, because the electrostatic forces that holds them in the filter would be overcome by the kinetic energy of oil and particles would be washed away back into oil sump. On the other hand, if you’d run approx 3-micron mechanical depth-type filter at the same flow as an electrostatic (e.f. 1gpm), the results would be pretty competitive.

"However, the cost of fine filtration even upto 5 microns using mechanical filtration is expensive operation as the dirt holding capacity of fine filtration elements is very limited and its price much higher as compared to collector media of electrostatic oil cleaner. We have achieved results uptp NAS class 5 cleanliness by using EOC. Hence EOC is an effective off-line cleaning equipment for hydraulic systems/machines."

Comments: That may be the case in India. In the US, most of depth-type mechanical filters have comparable dirt holding capacities as some of the best electrostatic filters. Also, the price of a collector media of electrostatic oil filters varies, but in general, it ranges from being slightly higher than of the mechanical-type filters, to being competitive.

In general, the choice of using one technology or the other and sizing them properly depends primarily on the particularity of the application this filter system will be use for. Factors to consider, among other things, include the rate of particles ingression (environment), degree of moisture present in oil (environment and/or the system), the rate of wear generation (the system), oil viscosity, and type/size of contaminants being targeted (desired cleanliness level). I have personally noticed high degree of disappointment some folks have towards filters for reason that has nothing to do with the performance of filters, and should be blaming themselves instead. Because they never knew, or considered and insisted on factors (mentioned above) when choosing filters, and ended up with an inadequate filter. When this is combined with a greedy salesman (selling them what is cheaper and what customer is willing to pay, and disregarding the fact that the sold unit is grossly undersized for the application), the final outcome is obviously disappointment. A bit of knowledge goes a long way. Making blanket statements could be misleading, because what works in your application (well, nobody knows what that is as you didn’t bother to mention it), may not work for someone in mining or paper industry.

Also, it does not help to lump all the equipment of all manufacturers out there of either technology in the same bag and pass a judgment favoring one system over another. There always were and will be the "Good, Bad, Ugly" in this field, just like in every other field. Some are perfectionists always striving to break new grounds in the field, and there are others that are driven to make a quick buck. Therefore, the conclusions and judgments of the performances should be more specific.

HOW TO ARRIVE AT VOLTAGE TO BE APPLIED TO PLATES FOR FOR CHARGE ON PLATES FOR ELECTROSTATIC OIL CLEANING

Mr. Ashok Jain



Posted Fri July 25 2008 05:20 AM Hide Post
HOW TO ARRIVE AT VOLTAGE TO BE APPLIED TO PLATES FOR FOR CHARGE ON PLATES FOR ELECTROSTATIC OIL CLEANING

I am with OILKLEEN and would love to help answer your question but I do not understand? Please email me directly at:

paul@oilkleen.com

and we will try to answer your question.

Thank you,

Paul Jarvis
OILKLEEN

Can we use the Electrostatic Oil filtration machines for this cone crusher oils as these are gear Oils having a viscosity of 13.5 to 15.o cst @ 100Deg. C

Regards,
SINDHUJAA

Dear sindhujaa

Elctrostatic filter would probably work but very slowly. Because of low flow rate oil would cool to 25 deg C and viscosity would drag most contamination through.

Sorry

Electrostatic oil conditioners have come along way in the past few years. Water removal and soluble varnish removal is now available. You can check out details at: http://www.engfilt.com/GreenMacheen300.html

Actually Electrostatic units have had negligible changes over the past decade. What we are now seeing is a few rogue companies using others patented technologies, this is often a recipe for disaster since they have no idea how the this process works. The media they are working with can easily destroy the oil by removing the necessary additives that are designed to protect it. We constantly inform people to talk to other end users and not just accept a few references they offer you and ensure you deal with someone who is truly knowledgeable on oil and can perform on site testing, this is probably the most important. I can’t even tell you how many times we have gone behind and repaired infected oils for customers that were originally promised it would be cleaned up.

Jeff Chapin
Fluitec International
j.chapin@fluitec.com

Sorry, I forgot to post this link.

http://www.fluitec.com/en/prod...ion-control/esp.html

This is a very unprofessional post Jeff...This is inappropriate in my opinion and you should think about deleting it.

Paul Jarvis

Paul, I am merely stating facts. I am not insinuating anything towards you or your company and am sorry if you had taken it that way. This is what I find difficult about posts and or emails, they are often taken out of context. Please don’t take the prior post personal.

Which "Facts" are you referring too? I'm curious! You should get your facts straight before you make comments and claims you cannot back up...

You should use forums to talk about the benefits and features of your products to help peoples problems and issues, not make up things and post false claims about other companies and their products. Things you know nothing about by the way!

I just had to put my $0.02 in on what I call "snake oil" salesmen techniques and don't appreciate the comments about technologies and companies you know nothing about...

I see my previous post was deleted. I guess truth hurts. In that post I copied a post from a few years ago by a senior staff member at fluitec that stated, "Electrostatic oil cleaning does not remove soluble additives. There is tremendous research backing this up".
This clearly is counter to the statement above. You know, the internet never forgets.

That's too bad that Ray's post gets deleted and not the crazy comments from Jeff...

One thing i would like to add to this "soluble varnish" term that is getting widely used throughout the industry. There is no such thing as Soluble Varnish, technically it is a first stage acid build up in the oil that will show up in a Membrane Varnish Patch test when the oil cools down....One thing to remember is "Soluble Varnish" has nothing to do with removing varnish build-up from internal metal parts and reducing contamination particles. Absolutely nothing! Now the "Soluble Varnish" filters can make a lower QSA patch score and lower acid numbers, that's about it...turns out these acids will manipulate the varnish patch test used in the industry today.

One other thing to remember, Electrostatic filters do not remove additives from oil. Additives are "soluble" in solution and simply making the oil pass through an energy field doesn't change the chemical formulation or remove additives.

Please remember one thing. When testing for Varnish, the QSA or MPC patch tests are not ASTM approved and they have limits. When looking for varnish the best test is to simply look inside your system at metal parts. You should use patch tests as part of varnish prevention program, but add several other tests like particle count, FTIR measurements on Anti-Oxidation additives compared with the NEW oil samples, contamination testing, and keep doing your routing oil analysis through OEM lubricant supplier support. Varnish is complicated and it takes more than just a number on a QSA or MPC patch test to identify and properly remove. These test do not tell you anything about varnish build-up on metal surfaces. They only measure the levels of varnish in the oil at that present time.

Soluble varnish or first stage acid build up?

Either way, are we still talking about the stuff that agglomerates after a few days?

That stuff needs to go. Period. Unless there is some hidden benefit to it?

I agree that it doesn't measure build up on machines. But I've seen build up on spools that are causing grief with high MPCs in the oil. So I have at least some correlation. Enough to convince me that MPC/QSA is a useful tool.

The issues caused by the Group II change have the potential to be far reaching, I'm battling some odd stuff right now. I MUST rely on testing instread of machine inspection (Note previous paragraph), because the only way I get into some of my machines faster than every 2 years is because we have an expensive forced outage.


My approach is evolving, but right now MPC/QSA is a tool I can use. Maybe later something else will come around. I'm also adding other physical tests to the standard suite to target specific performance areas.

Not everthing I am doing is ASTM normal, some of it is in process, some may never be ASTM.

I must make that judgement.

Meanwhile, the G II issues demand a cautiously out of the box approach.

As for remediation techniques, I have developed criteria. Show me data that you have a reasonable chance of meeting them, and you get to try.

Do it real world in my plant and you have can make the shorter list for getting a new customer.

I have sent several vendors packing, and researched and dismissed many more, because they didn't 'believe' that the solubles were a concern. I think they were just trying to sell their current tech. When I need new tech.

end rant

Hello Robert

I agree with your comment that the varnish must be removed and we have seen that the amounts of varnish can be very significant. This brings up a very interesting question with the electrostatic and related technologies that we do not see any data or any means of storing any amount of varnish, so where does it go if it truly is removed.

When the CJC elements are removed each elemet can contain 8 to 16 pounds of varnish and each turbine system has from 8 to 16 elements. That is a lot of varnish but I do not see similar quantities or results from other systems. Our results are backed up by substantial test data that can be viewed on our website.

With the celulose filters the varnish is mostly adsorbed (not absorbed)in the fibers and not just filtered out. Elements saturated with varnish show minimal change on differential pressure at operating temperature and make it difficult to determine when to change elements. Temperature is definitely a factor in the removal process.

So far on this post they have been shooting with blanks and hot air so lets see if they have some hard facts to shoot back and forth.

Thanks

Harv,

Good question, the varnish and contamination must go somewhere in order for a system to work? Right? The OILKLEEN technology uses a unique 18 multiple electrostatic fields with a special depth media between each field. As the oil is forced through all 18 energy fields the contamination will take a charge and then bond to the depth media inside the filter. This unique design will remove almost 20 pounds /9kg of material. The OILKLEEN filter is a light GREEN color and will turn a nasty black tar color once the element is full. You can visually see the change!

Hello Oilkleen

OK, so where can we find the actual data that shows this is varnish and not dirt and how long did it take to collect?

All of our test data is on our website at CJC Canada

Any person looking to purchase an oil purification system that will clean the oil, strip varnish build up, and prevent varnish from coming back should find a supplier that will prove their technology before purchasing to show the difference between technologies and not waste customers money!

OILKLEEN has been offering this for the last 3 years, and still offer a DEMO program to prove desired results to customers. To date, the OILKLEEN GREEN MACHEEN "DEMO" program has never failed in providing successful results and ultimately selling our systems. Not a single "DEMO" was ever returned without the customer buying 1 or multiple systems. If you are looking at a potential supplier who will not prove their technology first, then you shouldn't risk spending the money for products that may or may not work.

Please send me an email if you are interested solving varnish and fluid contamination issues once and for all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLRavNbgEPY

paul@oilkleen.com

Well, in a few days, I get a look at some control spools.

Similar varnish values on 2 machines.

1 has been cleaned up, one has not.

Patience is a virtue, right?

When you say 1 was cleaned up and 1 wasn't, how did you clean it up? Did you use an electrostatic oil cleaner?

I'm looking forward to more solutions from every professional body.

i have sent a request yesterday but no one answered.
i am looking for some one experineced and knowldgable with this technology to reply some of my questions

Please forward any questions you might have regarding an "Electrostatic Oil Cleaning System" to myself as I am the inventor of the OILKLEEN patented electrostatic technology, and I would be glad to help you.

Paul Jarvis
paul@oilkleen.com
813.333.6356

Guenter121, If you are interested in the latest varnish mitigation technology, please review this site and call me to discuss your specific application and request a complimentary assessment of your turbine oil.
http://rccnow.com/a_fluitec_in...ational_services.php

Guenter 121, I presented a paper at PowerGen on the experiences of a major Southeastern power plant with our machines. Their 7 GE turbines are now at 50,000 run hours. Their oil is cleaner than the best new oil available today. They sent their servo valves out for inspection at about 48,000 hours, 9 years. the servo valves had some wear, but they were functioning ok. The oil in the tanks was so clear, I could look through the oil with a flashlight and see everything inside like looking through distilled water.

You can read about it here.

http://www.isopur.com/Cases/50...n_Hours_Same_Oil.pdf

hope this makes the difference in Electrostatic and Electrolytic clear..

This is another Chinese company that offers nothing to the discussion but is using the site for advertising.

Just completed studying all the posts made under this topic. I'd like to know what is the beta ratio for the EOC. Moreover, how does EOC address unloading of contamination collected??? How much qty of contaminants it can remove before saturation (in kgs).

I represent ETL's Cardev filtration. It's a depth filter and it removes 2.5 kgs of contaminants & 780 ml of water. It has beta ration of 250 and clean oil to NAS 6 and lesser (upto NAS 3). How this product can be compared to EOC? Your comments are highly valuable to me. Thanks.

Dear Friends,
I am a student studying last year engineering , an planning to make a project on electrostatic oil cleaner.I have starting working on the project and now stuck on the electrical part. I am confused on the source of the DC Power supply generation "how does the low AC supply can produce high voltage DC power". I am a Mechanical Student and have very less knowledge of Electrical. Therefore I request you all to help me in clearing the confusion on the high voltage supply.

Regards

NJ