New Car Warranty using Amsoil...

quote:

Originally posted by ADFD1:
Here are some Honda Techs and an Amsoil rep going at it. Seems you guys quote the same junk, is that how you were trained? Clones?

Junk? What junk? I was trained as a chemist and research scientist. I don't know how the other AMSOIL rep was trained. We probably read similar AMSOIL and competitor technical information, motor oil publications, tribology books and testing.

quote:

Originally posted by ADFD1:I'd take the word of a Honda tech first.

They both state their case. But the tie breaker is all the Honda customer posts that used both and prefer AMSOIL over the Honda Z1.

Also, take a look at the MSDS for the Honda Z1. "Refined Mineral oil" 80-85% Hydrocrack and Hydrotreated paraffinic oil" Flash Point 186C min.
Compare to AMSOIL. 100% Synthetic Universal Automatic Transmission Fluid .
Flash Point 220C.

I also can not find the Honda Z-1 Product Data Sheets that list product specifications, yet AMSOIL's is easily found. You have to wonder if it is because they don't want consumers to compare specifications and test results.

So the AMSOIL uses a much better chemical synthetic base oil and a much higher flash point than the petroleum nonsynthetic base Z1. I know which I would rather use. No wonder those that have used both, pick AMSOIL.

quote:

Originally posted by Trajan:
Even my own mechanic, when I had the tranny/rear end fluid changed, told me it was best to stick with the mfg approved juice.

Even though the car isn't under warranty.

And he lets me bring in my own.

Why did he tell you that? Which vehicle tranny/rear end was this for? What mfg approved juice did you use?

quote:

Also, take a look at the MSDS for the Honda Z1. "Refined Mineral oil" 80-85% Hydrocrack and Hydrotreated paraffinic oil" Flash Point 186C min.
Compare to AMSOIL. 100% Synthetic Universal Automatic Transmission Fluid .
Flash Point 220C.

Tim, you seem to operate under the assumption that its all about basestock. Honda may utilize the stated base oil due to their inherent ability to better handle and additive package. Perhaps Honda has identified a specific friction modifier that wouldn't stay supspended in 100% synthetic basestock.

quote:

So the AMSOIL uses a much better chemical synthetic base oil and a much higher flash point than the petroleum nonsynthetic base Z1. I know which I would rather use. No wonder those that have used both, pick AMSOIL.

Maybe Amsoil needs a higher flashpoint to compensate for missing friction modifier. Please list those that have used both. They way the statement reads is that it is all Amsoil users.

quote:

Originally posted by johnpr3:
Please list those that have used both. They way the statement reads is that it is all Amsoil users.

John, I listed them previously. Here the are again:
I'm reading at BITOG http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/...=1902558#Post1902558 that they seem to prefer AMSOIL ATF over the Honda Z1. It is unanimous so far in that thread. And in this BITOG thread http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/...umber=1852119&page=2 . And this BITOG thread http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/...umber=1631140&page=7 .
And this at BITOG http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/...wflat&Number=1107830 .
And this BITOG http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/...umber=1253297&page=2 .
The proof is in the pudding.

And Ford, et al, doesn't require an UOA for warranty. All they require is that you follow said warranty conditions.

quote:

Originally posted by Trajan:
And Ford, et al, doesn't require an UOA for warranty. All they require is that you follow said warranty conditions.

Agreed. AFAIK, as long as you follow the car mfg OCI you don't need a UOA or anything special. Just proof that you bought a mfg approved spec'd oil and the proper filter. Simple just follow directions, and enjoy your wheels.


If API certification, the proper grade of oil, and the recommended interval didn't matter then the OM would most likely read something like this. Add what ever oil you want, run it as long as you want, just keep it full.

AD

quote:

Originally posted by ADFD1:


If API certification, the proper grade of oil, and the recommended interval didn't matter then the OM would most likely read something like this. Add what ever oil you want, run it as long as you want, just keep it full.

AD

Back in the Model T days that was probably true

quote:

Originally posted by ADFD1:

quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Big Bear:
Tim, I talked with my Amsoil rep last nite and it seems doing extended drains is not the easiest thing to do without some work and money by the guy doing the extended drains with Amsoil. He told me if your car is under warranty and the owners manual calls for a 5000 mile OCI and you want to run Amsoil for one year and lets pick 25,000 miles, you better be getting a UOA done every 5000 miles. He also said that each UOA at 5000 miles better look as good as Blackstones Universal Averages for a 5000 mile OCI. He said most of his customers are lucky to get about 13,000 miles out of the Amsoil motor oil while they are under warranty becuase of the driving they do.
He is wrong. No UOA is required when following AMSOIL's extended drain service intervals.

The man is giving his customers sound advise. Would you want to run oil with a TBN of ZERO. The UOA will give a snapshot of how the oil is doing.



I think he is giving poor advice. Why pay for UOAs when the oil has proven it has not caused a parts failure in 38 years?

Only a fool would extend drain intervals without doing oil analysis. What happens when you lose an O-ring in a injector, but the oil is still under the mileage warranty? Who'se to blame? Case in point - a fleet I work with has been doing extended drains for many years...with great success. A recent oil analysis showed fuel dilution. With that information, they tested other trucks in the fleet. Many trucks in the 800k mile range were starting to show fuel dilution. The problem was quickly identified (O-rings on injectors starting to leak) and taken care of before catastrophic failure. Assuming it was Amsoil in the engine and UOA wasn't necessary and eved discouraged as a waste of money, who would be to blame if they didn't catch the problem in time? My guess is Amsoil would blame the ULSD fuel and, of course, the end user.

quote:

Originally posted by johnpr3:

Only a fool would extend drain intervals without doing oil analysis. What happens when you lose an O-ring in a injector, but the oil is still under the mileage warranty? Who'se to blame?

If the vehicle is under warranty, and the failure was due to a manufacturing defect in the O-ring, then the vehicle manufacturer pays.

quote:

Originally posted by johnpr3:Case in point - a fleet I work with has been doing extended drains for many years...with great success. A recent oil analysis showed fuel dilution. With that information, they tested other trucks in the fleet. Many trucks in the 800k mile range were starting to show fuel dilution. The problem was quickly identified (O-rings on injectors starting to leak) and taken care of before catastrophic failure. Assuming it was Amsoil in the engine and UOA wasn't necessary and eved discouraged as a waste of money, who would be to blame if they didn't catch the problem in time? My guess is Amsoil would blame the ULSD fuel and, of course, the end user.

Most fleets extend their oil change intervals with the use of UOAs. Many fleets using AMSOIL also use UOAs when extending past the AMSOIL recommendation. In both cases, they usually do not change their oil until the UOA shows they should. In either case, it would show fuel dilution. Some trucks are known to have problems with fuel dilution, and AMSOIL does not recommend extended oil change intervals unless they do UOAs. If the fuel dilution caused the failure, then AMSOIL or any oil would not be liable. However, AMSOIL has shown that their oil holds up better than Rotella, Delo, Mobil and Valvoline with high levels of fuel dilution. See http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g2752.pdf?zo=1181889 for details.

Only if an oil is determined to be the direct cause of an engine problem can a manufacturer or dealership deny warranty coverage for that specific problem. In this situation the AMSOIL warranty would apply, and the AMSOIL Technical Services Department would assist you in processing your claim and getting your vehicle repaired. That's AMSOIL's pledge to you. AMSOIL Inc. sells millions of gallons of oil per year and warranty claims are a rare occurrence. If you ever have a warranty problem with an automobile manufacturer (or snowmobile, boat, RV, motorcycle, etc...) or dealership, AMSOIL will assist you by analyzing the problem and providing data supporting the fact that repairs should be made under the vehicle manufacturer's warranty. If this does not resolve the problem. AMSOIL will submit a claim with their insurance company and request that an adjuster have the vehicle repaired and pursue legal settlement later if necessary. The fact is there never has been an engine failure attributed to the non-performance of AMSOIL products, and we do not expect there ever will be. If it ever did, both AMSOIL and their insurance company would make certain your problem was resolved.

Tim, I got this from the Amsoil Site, so tell me how long will it take for this situation to get resolved, how long does the claim process with Amsoil's insurance take to get resolved.

Then we need to have some insurance adjuster come and check on things, this is sounding like a long process.

quote:

Originally posted by Big Bear:

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:You are making this whole thing sound like the car breaks down on a Monday and Amsoil and Ford resolved this Lightening Quick and you get the car back on Friday, give me a break.

It depends a lot on Ford. How long it takes them to do failure analysis and prove the oil failed. Once AMSOIL gets this in writing, they can authorize repairs on your car. They can later get reimbursed from Ford. Ford could also step and authorize repairs and get reimbursed from AMSOIL if they value you as a customer.

I hope we are on the same page that this process will take sometime, so now you say it depends on Ford, sorry I am not buddies with Mr. Ford, the CEO of the Company, so the Tech Guy in a sense is correct in that it will take sometime to get everything resolved, what is the time limit on something like this getting resolved, I do not have to show any proof, you are the Amsoil Salesman, not me, show us a case where everything was smooth sailing with an Amsoil Warranty Claim.

You are really sugar coating things here, that's why I like talking with the Amsoil Tech Guy, becuase at least I will be getting closer to the truth with him.

Then I suggest you talking with the AMSOIL Tech guy and ask him your questions.

quote:

Since AMSOIL stated "there has never been an engine failure attributed to the non-performance of AMSOIL products" I think the whole discussion is moot.

I am not buying what Amsoil is saying here, I have seen to many lousy UOA's with Amsoil being spent between 13,000 and 17,000 miles. I think there have been some problems and Amsoil is just keeping quiet.

I know Amsoil makes some good products, but I have seen to many other companies say things that were really not true, so I am skeptical.

Everything Redline has told me has turned out to be true, I am just having doubts about Amsoil.

quote:

Originally posted by johnpr3:

quote:

Originally posted by ADFD1:

quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Big Bear:
Tim, I talked with my Amsoil rep last nite and it seems doing extended drains is not the easiest thing to do without some work and money by the guy doing the extended drains with Amsoil. He told me if your car is under warranty and the owners manual calls for a 5000 mile OCI and you want to run Amsoil for one year and lets pick 25,000 miles, you better be getting a UOA done every 5000 miles. He also said that each UOA at 5000 miles better look as good as Blackstones Universal Averages for a 5000 mile OCI. He said most of his customers are lucky to get about 13,000 miles out of the Amsoil motor oil while they are under warranty becuase of the driving they do.
He is wrong. No UOA is required when following AMSOIL's extended drain service intervals.

The man is giving his customers sound advise. Would you want to run oil with a TBN of ZERO. The UOA will give a snapshot of how the oil is doing.



I think he is giving poor advice. Why pay for UOAs when the oil has proven it has not caused a parts failure in 38 years?

Only a fool would extend drain intervals without doing oil analysis. What happens when you lose an O-ring in a injector, but the oil is still under the mileage warranty? Who'se to blame? Case in point - a fleet I work with has been doing extended drains for many years...with great success. A recent oil analysis showed fuel dilution. With that information, they tested other trucks in the fleet. Many trucks in the 800k mile range were starting to show fuel dilution. The problem was quickly identified (O-rings on injectors starting to leak) and taken care of before catastrophic failure. Assuming it was Amsoil in the engine and UOA wasn't necessary and eved discouraged as a waste of money, who would be to blame if they didn't catch the problem in time? My guess is Amsoil would blame the ULSD fuel and, of course, the end user.

Nice example, and it shows how reps giving bad advise can cost the end user big money. UOA's are a waste was the advise given here. If one of those engines in the example you gave failed it would not be oil related, Amsoil would be off the hook. I'd grab the rep that told me UOA's were a waste, and see where that would get me in court. Most likely he'd swear he didn't discuss UOA's with you and it would be your word against his. That's why these boards are nice since we have the bad advise given in writing here. Amsoil obviously has no control over what these reps say. Good thing you had the brains to do a UOA.

AD

Going with BB's above scenario, Ford is not going to pay. You used a non approved oil and went over the oci. In plain English, you failed to follow the warranty.

So now it's Amsoil vs the poor guy who used it.

Amsoil isn't going to prove their oil is at fault. That's your job. Ford doesn't have to prove they're not at fault. You failed to follow the contract.

The vice is closing on your nuts, and it isn't your hand on the handle.

Follow the mfg warranty and stay out of the vice.

quote:

Originally posted by Trajan:
Going with BB's above scenario, Ford is not going to pay. You used a non approved oil and went over the oci. In plain English, you failed to follow the warranty.

The Ford warranty is not contingent on an approved oil or the oci if the oil did not cause the failure. This is discussed in the links below. If the Ford part was defective, Ford pays under their warranty. Ford has to prove AMSOIL was defective, which they have not in 38 years. If Ford proves the AMSOIL was defective, AMSOIL pays. Pretty simple.



You can read what AMSOIL, the vehicle manufactures and consumer law says about AMSOIL and warranties at http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g2488.pdf?zo=1181889 .
Here is another link: http://www.amsoil.com/news/200...nties.pdf?zo=1181889 . Not sure how to make it any clearer than that.

quote:

Originally posted by Tim Vipond:

quote:

Originally posted by Trajan:
Going with BB's above scenario, Ford is not going to pay. You used a non approved oil and went over the oci. In plain English, you failed to follow the warranty.

The Ford warranty is not contingent on an approved oil or the oci if the oil did not cause the failure. This is discussed in the links below. If the Ford part was defective, Ford pays under their warranty. Ford has to prove AMSOIL was defective, which they have not in 38 years. If Ford proves the AMSOIL was defective, AMSOIL pays. Pretty simple.



You can read what AMSOIL, the vehicle manufactures and consumer law says about AMSOIL and warranties at http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g2488.pdf?zo=1181889 .
Here is another link: http://www.amsoil.com/news/200...nties.pdf?zo=1181889 . Not sure how to make it any clearer than that.

I have about as much faith in Amsoil's Warranty as I do with what Tim has said in this thread, I'll pass on both and just use a cheaper oil that is just as good as Amsoil Motor Oil.

The warranty is a contract. You do not follow the obligations agreed to under the contract, you forfiet any benefit of said contract.

The manufacturer is obligated only if you follow the warranty, and you get problems anyway.

All those class action suits against the auto makers proved that.

I'm not interested in what Amsoil says about it. I don't care if it's been in the oil business for 38 years.

Ford has been in business for 107 years. Never once filed bankruptcy. Didn't go for gov't bailouts. Never, as far as I've been able to find, has had any problems stemming from using mfg approved oils in any engine they've designed.

No company that makes oil is ever going to convince me that they know better than the engine makers.

Especially if they are too cheap to have said engine makers test their oil.

How about this. Link to cases where, oh, let's say, Ford, paid. Even though the car owner violated the warranty.

No Amsoil links.

Reason NOT to use Amsoil
Pablo Offline


Registered: 10/28/02
Posts: 39312
Loc: Duvall WA - Pacific NW USA
Honestly the discussions on Noria are degrading and almost disgusting. I hope we don't reach that low. On one hand you have an Amsoil dealer who just won't let it go. He's over the top IMHO. In the other corner there appears to be a biased ring leader who thinks he's "outing" people by posting their bio information in the middle of an oil/filter thread. No knowledge to be gained there. I pretty much gave up posting on NORIA unless someone drags my name into it.
_________________________
See PABLO at oilslubesfilters.com

I actually think it is nice to find out the other occupations that Amsoil Dealers had before they started selling Amsoil.

Just pay the $35.00 fee and you are an Amsoil Dealer, and then you can give advice on what lubricants people should or should not be using.

Pablo does have a point though. Perhaps we should all let it go as we're at a stalemate.

quote:

Originally posted by Trajan:
Pablo does have a point though. Perhaps we should all let it go as we're at a stalemate.

I can let it go, maybe we need to here from the renegade Amsoil Salesman and see what he has too say.

To clarify, Pablo is not the renegade Amsoil salesman.