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quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
AMSOIL oil and filter change intervals for vehicles in warranty can be found at http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g1490.pdf?zo=1181889 . Several new car dealerships offer AMSOIL for their cars under warranty.


Sure they recommend their XL series API certified oils, and to follow the mfg OCI, not Amsoil extended drain intervals. Telling someone to use Amsoil for 15K without a change in a new $90,000 motorhome is poor advise.

If you have a new car, it is wise to follow the OCI in the owner's manual,because during the 1st 25,000 to 50,000 miles on a new engine is where you are going to have most of your break in wear.

No oil filter, not even the Amsoil EaO Oil Filter is going to trap all of that break in wear material, some of it is going to be dispersed and held by the motor oil.
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:

Sure they recommend their XL series API certified oils, and to follow the mfg OCI, not Amsoil extended drain intervals.
Which dealerships only recommend the API Certified XL oils and to follow the mfg OCI? Here is a quote from GM: “The New Vehicle Warranty would not be void simply because an owner failed to use proper engine oils or did not perform maintenance at the prescribed intervals. Warranty applicability is contingent upon the cause of failure.”
Service Policies and Procedures Department,
General Motors Corporation “
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:Telling someone to use Amsoil for 15K without a change in a new $90,000 motorhome is poor advise.
Why? AMSOIL has made these recommendations for 38 years without a problem

quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:If you have a new car, it is wise to follow the OCI in the owner's manual,because during the 1st 25,000 to 50,000 miles on a new engine is where you are going to have most of your break in wear.
Is this opinion or fact? If fact, please post your reference. AMSOIL says you can begin AMSOIL and extended oil changes immediately. This is what the Texas State Police do. No problems.

quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear: No oil filter, not even the Amsoil EaO Oil Filter is going to trap all of that break in wear material, some of it is going to be dispersed and held by the motor oil.
The AMSOIL EaO oil filter traps more and smaller particles than other filters. Do you have a reference that those break in materials will not be trapped by the filter or cause a problem?
http://www.gm.com/corporate/re...oved_engine_oils.pdf

Tim, how come Amsoil isn't on GM's approved list? Even there API certified XL Series? Even some of these small no name companies made it.

Even Pennzoil Platinum made the list, does GM know something about Amsoil not being good for there engines, maybe they see something wrong with Amsoil and they certainly do not need anymore bad publicity or uneccessary recalls because it seems like Amsoil does not meet there standards for some reason.

I hope you are not going to come back with your Amsoil Warranty about motor oil's and them having to prove that Amsoil caused a problem.

Maybe Amsoil motor oil's are just outdated for today's GM Engines and do not offer the right protection.

I know, Amsoil doesn't want to pay for the certification, they'd rather reinvest the money in R&D, LOL. Odd considering how many GM products are on the road.
_________________________
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
http://www.gm.com/corporate/re...oved_engine_oils.pdf

Tim, how come Amsoil isn't on GM's approved list? Even there API certified XL Series? Even some of these small no name companies made it.
AMSOIL doesn't believe in paying GM and others money and putting the time in to get on 100's of manufacturers lists. No manufacture requires an oil to be on the list in order to keep warranties intact. If GM required an oil on their list to be used, GM would have to provide it for free. Money and time wasted. But AMSOIL offers oils that meet GM's specs, and never had a warranty issue.
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
http://www.gm.com/corporate/re...oved_engine_oils.pdf

Tim, how come Amsoil isn't on GM's approved list? Even there API certified XL Series? Even some of these small no name companies made it.

Even Pennzoil Platinum made the list, does GM know something about Amsoil not being good for there engines, maybe they see something wrong with Amsoil and they certainly do not need anymore bad publicity or uneccessary recalls because it seems like Amsoil does not meet there standards for some reason.

I hope you are not going to come back with your Amsoil Warranty about motor oil's and them having to prove that Amsoil caused a problem.

Maybe Amsoil motor oil's are just outdated for today's GM Engines and do not offer the right protection.

I know, Amsoil doesn't want to pay for the certification, they'd rather reinvest the money in R&D, LOL. Odd considering how many GM products are on the road.
_________________________


Better Amsoil than Swindle....er synlube. Even the OP, who attacked anyone who dared to question that crud, agrees.
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
http://www.gm.com/corporate/re...oved_engine_oils.pdf

Tim, how come Amsoil isn't on GM's approved list? Even there API certified XL Series? Even some of these small no name companies made it.
AMSOIL doesn't believe in paying GM and others money and putting the time in to get on 100's of manufacturers lists. No manufacture requires an oil to be on the list in order to keep warranties intact. If GM required an oil on their list to be used, GM would have to provide it for free. Money and time wasted. But AMSOIL offers oils that meet GM's specs, and never had a warranty issue.


The list of approved oils is a list of oils that meet all the specs. Nothing more or less.

They can, and do, require whatever oil you use to meet said specs for warranty coverage.

I haven't seen any owners manual that says "Use whatever oil and or weight you want."
quote:


They can, and do, require whatever oil you use to meet said specs for warranty coverage.

I haven't seen any owners manual that says "Use whatever oil and or weight you want."


BINGO, I thought I was the only person who realized that! Thanks Man. Bottom line pick an approved oil from GM's list if you own a GM. If you have a problem and follow GM's recommendations you'll be fine. Even cheap no-name oils are on the list, so price and availability is no problem!

AD
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:


The list of approved oils is a list of oils that meet all the specs. Nothing more or less.
You could also add that there are other oils that also meet the specs and list them on their labels, but have decided not to pay GM or spend the time to get on their list.

quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:They can, and do, require whatever oil you use to meet said specs for warranty coverage.
Here is what GM says about motor oil:

“The New Vehicle Warranty would not be void simply because an owner failed to use proper engine oils or did not perform maintenance at the prescribed intervals. Warranty applicability is contingent upon the cause of failure.”
Service Policies and Procedures Department,
General Motors Corporation “
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
quote:


They can, and do, require whatever oil you use to meet said specs for warranty coverage.

I haven't seen any owners manual that says "Use whatever oil and or weight you want."


BINGO, I thought I was the only person who realized that! Thanks Man. Bottom line pick an approved oil from GM's list if you own a GM. If you have a problem and follow GM's recommendations you'll be fine. Even cheap no-name oils are on the list, so price and availability is no problem!

AD
Maybe. API has tested oils off the shelf that was API Certified, yet did not meet API spec. Valvoline and Castrol tested Mobil 1 5w30 off the shelf and it did not meet the API spec. Mobil 1 5w30 is on the GM approved list. Since it did not meet the API minimum spec, how could it meet the GM spec?

Again, here is what GM has to say about oil and warranty:

“The New Vehicle Warranty would not be void simply because an owner failed to use proper engine oils or did not perform maintenance at the prescribed intervals. Warranty applicability is contingent upon the cause of failure.”
Service Policies and Procedures Department,
General Motors Corporation “

Personally, I'd rather us a better oil than one that barely meets API and the GM spec. So that is what I do.
As seen in this thread from our resident troll. who hasn't popped in yet: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/...umber=1504155&page=1

I just love this line: "You do have the right to use any oil you choose, and if that oil is not what Ford specifies for warranty purposes, Ford has the legal right to give you the middle finger, which is exactly what they are doing"

The guy A: The wrong oil. B: Ignored the OCI.

And dnewton3's posts are very informative as well.
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
As seen in this thread from our resident troll. who hasn't popped in yet: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/...umber=1504155&page=1

I just love this line: "You do have the right to use any oil you choose, and if that oil is not what Ford specifies for warranty purposes, Ford has the legal right to give you the middle finger, which is exactly what they are doing"

The guy A: The wrong oil. B: Ignored the OCI.

And dnewton3's posts are very informative as well.


Interesting thread. No proof it ever happened. If it did, he did a lot of things wrong:

1. It seems he didn't get a letter from Ford Motor Company stating why his engine or the oil failed and that his warranty claim is denied.
2. He refused to name the oil he used.
3. He never got an analysis to prove coolant was in the oil.
4. He never contacted the oil company for assistance.
5. He likely used a wrong oil. And he did not follow the oil company's warranty requirements.
6. No oil company recommends an extended oil change interval for his truck due to known fuel dilution problems with this engine design.
7. He never got a UOA when he met Ford's recommended oil change interval.
Ford and AMSOIL list these oil recommendations for his truck:
2008 FORD TRUCKS F450 PICKUP 6.4L 8-cyl Engine Code [R] Turbo Diesel
LUBRICANTS & FLUIDS:
AMSOIL published Technical Service Bulletin MO-2009-10-01
"identifying" high fuel dilution in 2007-2010 light duty
diesel pickups (Dodge 6.7L, Ford 6.4L, and GM/GMC 6.6L LMM)
equipped with diesel particulate filters. Amsoil has revised
the drain interval recommendation for these specific
applications to the longest manufacturer-recommended
interval. Oil drain intervals can be extended further with
oil analysis.
Engine Oil
Grade 1......CJ-4
Synthetic 5W-40 Premium Diesel Oil (DEOQT)
Synthetic 15W-40 Diesel Oil (DMEQT)
32 to 122F......10W-30
Above -4F......5W-40
Above 68F......15W-40
Below 122F......0W-40, 0W-30
If the cause was a coolant leak then Ford would pay. If the cause was the oil failed, he did not follow the warranty instructions of the oil, so his oil warranty would be denied.
quote:

If the cause was a coolant leak then Ford would pay. If the cause was the oil failed, he did not follow the warranty instructions of the oil, so his oil warranty would be denied.


Agreed if a coolant leak was at fault Ford would pay, how could someone blame the oil?

Now if his Amsoil dealer sold him an extended drain oil and neglected to inform him about problems with his engine and extending drain intervals what happens? Amsoil won't pay, Ford won't pay, does he visit a court house with the rep for giving bad advise if the oil did in fact cause the failure? Lots of bad info is exchanged by misinformed or over eager sales people! It happens everyday.

AD
Worth looking at, here is a man that is well informed: Worth a paste: When two companies lock horns the end result is the customer is without a vehicle. Get a lawyer involved be prepared to pay.

It is always best to stick with the mfg suggested oils and change oil when the mfg suggests changing oil. They designed the engine.


Pasted from the link.

Gosh - here's a real life example of what I've often touted about the misconceptions of the M/M Warranty act. In a nutshell, I can summize.

If you use the prescribed fluids in the prescribed manner, then the burden of proof is upon the OEM to show that your actions somehow caused the failure of the product in question. If you have good, solid evidence to show that you followed warranty parameters, then most OEMs won't even argue with you. If you use alternative materials and/or methods for maintenance, then the burden of proof is upon you to show that your selections did not cause the failure. It's that simple on the surface; use their specs and they have to show it's not their fault - use your stuff and it's up to you to show it's not your fault.

-----------------------------------------

After reading this who needs the hassle if there is a problem?
Keep life simple take the path of least resistance.

AD
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
quote:

If the cause was a coolant leak then Ford would pay. If the cause was the oil failed, he did not follow the warranty instructions of the oil, so his oil warranty would be denied.


Agreed if a coolant leak was at fault Ford would pay, how could someone blame the oil?

Now if his Amsoil dealer sold him an extended drain oil and neglected to inform him about problems with his engine and extending drain intervals what happens? Amsoil won't pay, Ford won't pay, does he visit a court house with the rep for giving bad advise if the oil did in fact cause the failure? Lots of bad info is exchanged by misinformed or over eager sales people! It happens everyday.

AD

1. AMSOIL might pay anyway if there was no coolant leak. They do pay out on good will every once in a while. It is good publicity.
2. I think if it went to court, it would be a difficult case to win. He would have to prove the Dealer said he could go 19,000 miles on the oil change for his vehicle.
3. The AMSOIL website clearly shows not to extend the oil change on his vehicle without a UOA due to known fuel dilution problems in his engine.
4. I think the bottle says something to that effect also.
5. The dealer would have no control on the oil change or use of the truck.
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:

Gosh - here's a real life example of what I've often touted about the misconceptions of the M/M Warranty act. In a nutshell, I can summize.

If you use the prescribed fluids in the prescribed manner, then the burden of proof is upon the OEM to show that your actions somehow caused the failure of the product in question. If you have good, solid evidence to show that you followed warranty parameters, then most OEMs won't even argue with you. If you use alternative materials and/or methods for maintenance, then the burden of proof is upon you to show that your selections did not cause the failure. It's that simple on the surface; use their specs and they have to show it's not their fault - use your stuff and it's up to you to show it's not your fault.

-----------------------------------------


AD

You are right. That statement is a misconception of the M/M Warranty Act. Even if you use "alternative materials and/or methods for maintenance" the burden of proof is still upon the manufacturer that your selections caused the failure. They can easily prove it with oil and parts analysis.

Again GM says:

“The New Vehicle Warranty would not be void simply because an owner failed to use proper engine oils or did not perform maintenance at the prescribed intervals. Warranty applicability is contingent upon the cause of failure.”
Service Policies and Procedures Department,
General Motors Corporation “
quote:
Originally posted by inHaliburton:
The reason I began this thread/subject is because a Ford dealer will install Amsoil oil. I do not know what types, though. Not sure if this is commonplace. They are heavily into racing Ford products.

I will try to find out.
Please do. I'd like to know which AMSOIL they install, and if they insist on following Ford's recommended oil change interval or do they say following AMSOIL's recommendations is fine. Thanks.
Warrantys protect the owner from mfg faults. They also protect the mfg from owner stupidity.

It isn't the owner's fault if he follows the mfg dictates on oil type, viscosity, and oci, and his engine gives him the finger

It isn't the mfg's fault if the owner does as our turbo diesel owner does and the engine gives him the finger.

If you think the warranty is meaningless, that what the mfg has no clue as to what is best for the motor, go buy a new Mustang and put in SA oil. Or swill lube.

And see who has the last laugh.
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
Warrantys protect the owner from mfg faults. They also protect the mfg from owner stupidity.

It isn't the owner's fault if he follows the mfg dictates on oil type, viscosity, and oci, and his engine gives him the finger

It isn't the mfg's fault if the owner does as our turbo diesel owner does and the engine gives him the finger.

If you think the warranty is meaningless, that what the mfg has no clue as to what is best for the motor, go buy a new Mustang and put in SA oil. Or swill lube.

And see who has the last laugh.


If the vehicle manufacturer proves the SA oil or swill lube failed or even an "approved" or "Certified oil failed even under "recommended" oil change intervals, then it falls back to the owner or the manufacturer of the oil. If they don't fail, then it goes back to the vehicle manufacturer to cover manufacturer defects if it is under warranty.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/...Number=825144&page=1

Magnason-Moss Act and Amsoil

Tim, I have a question, lets say I by a brand new Ford Mustang and buy Amsoil 100% synthetic oil and I do yearly OCI's.

After the 3 year/ 36,000 mile warranty is up I go ahead and buy an extended warranty from Ford, I buy there Ford ESP Plan and take the warranty out to 100,000 miles. I may not put 25,000 miles on in a year, maybe I might put on anywhere between 15,000 to 20,000 miles a year.

If I have a problem with something going wrong in my engine, it seems you said in that thread that Amsoil would fight for me in court, is there any money out of my pocket, and if Amsoil does battle it out with Ford in court, how long will this process take. I cannot drive my beloved Mustang becuase of whatever went wrong in my engine from doing extended drain intervals with Amsoil. Will this whole legal process take a couple of years, will this mean I will have to go out and buy another car since my Mustang is just sitting.
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/...Number=825144&page=1

Magnason-Moss Act and Amsoil

After the 3 year/ 36,000 mile warranty is up I go ahead and buy an extended warranty from Ford, I buy there Ford ESP Plan and take the warranty out to 100,000 miles.


Big Bear, does the above mean that one can purchase Ford's ESP after the purchase, but before the warranty runs out? I didn't purchase, but assumed that if you don't purchase ESP at time you purchased the vehicles, you're out of luck.

I'm assuming Ford Canada has same policy as Ford USA.

Can you clarify, please?
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
quote:
Originally posted by inHaliburton:
The reason I began this thread/subject is because a Ford dealer will install Amsoil oil. I do not know what types, though. Not sure if this is commonplace. They are heavily into racing Ford products.

I will try to find out.
Please do. I'd like to know which AMSOIL they install, and if they insist on following Ford's recommended oil change interval or do they say following AMSOIL's recommendations is fine. Thanks.


I sent of a post to Anthony Polito of Polito Ford in Lindsay, Ontario. He's going to get back to me with info.

I have a feeling that Ford is not as generous as GM re OCIs.

My Manual sez 6 months or 8 000 kms. That's it.

If that's the case, XL, or next highest on the list is the oil of choice for me. If they stock it and the price differential is 1 or 2 bucks.

I'll let you know when I know.
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/...Number=825144&page=1

Magnason-Moss Act and Amsoil

Tim, I have a question, lets say I by a brand new Ford Mustang and buy Amsoil 100% synthetic oil and I do yearly OCI's.

After the 3 year/ 36,000 mile warranty is up I go ahead and buy an extended warranty from Ford, I buy there Ford ESP Plan and take the warranty out to 100,000 miles. I may not put 25,000 miles on in a year, maybe I might put on anywhere between 15,000 to 20,000 miles a year.

If I have a problem with something going wrong in my engine, it seems you said in that thread that Amsoil would fight for me in court, is there any money out of my pocket, and if Amsoil does battle it out with Ford in court, how long will this process take. I cannot drive my beloved Mustang becuase of whatever went wrong in my engine from doing extended drain intervals with Amsoil. Will this whole legal process take a couple of years, will this mean I will have to go out and buy another car since my Mustang is just sitting.


It all depends on what went wrong with the engine. If it was a manufacturing defect, Ford pays. If Ford Motor Company writes that AMSOIL oil failed (which they have to prove), then contact AMSOIL technical who will begin their own investigation at no cost to you. Generally, it only takes a few phone calls to determine what the problem is, and maybe an independent oil and parts analysis which might take a few days. If there is doubt, AMSOIL will authorize repairs, and if their analysis shows the oil did not fail, they will seek reimbursement from Ford. It should only take a few days longer than regular repairs. I have never heard of it going to court. Usually the outcome of the 3rd party oil and part analysis is very clear what caused the failure, thus which company is responsible. You can rent another Mustang in the meantime which should be covered by either company's warranty.
quote:
Originally posted by inHaliburton:
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/...Number=825144&page=1

Magnason-Moss Act and Amsoil

After the 3 year/ 36,000 mile warranty is up I go ahead and buy an extended warranty from Ford, I buy there Ford ESP Plan and take the warranty out to 100,000 miles.


Big Bear, does the above mean that one can purchase Ford's ESP after the purchase, but before the warranty runs out? I didn't purchase, but assumed that if you don't purchase ESP at time you purchased the vehicles, you're out of luck.

I'm assuming Ford Canada has same policy as Ford USA.

Can you clarify, please?


From my understanding, you can purchase the Ford ESP after you purchase your car, you can purchase the Ford ESP right up until your 3 year 36 month warranty expires.

Do not get talked into anyone from Ford on buying any other extended warranty policy, the Ford ESP is the best, and all of the others are worthless, these other 3rd party warranties make you leave the car at the dealer and it can take weeks for a represenative to come out, with the Ford ESP, the service advisor just makes a quick call.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/...Number=825144&page=1

Magnason-Moss Act and Amsoil

Tim, I have a question, lets say I by a brand new Ford Mustang and buy Amsoil 100% synthetic oil and I do yearly OCI's.

After the 3 year/ 36,000 mile warranty is up I go ahead and buy an extended warranty from Ford, I buy there Ford ESP Plan and take the warranty out to 100,000 miles. I may not put 25,000 miles on in a year, maybe I might put on anywhere between 15,000 to 20,000 miles a year.

If I have a problem with something going wrong in my engine, it seems you said in that thread that Amsoil would fight for me in court, is there any money out of my pocket, and if Amsoil does battle it out with Ford in court, how long will this process take. I cannot drive my beloved Mustang becuase of whatever went wrong in my engine from doing extended drain intervals with Amsoil. Will this whole legal process take a couple of years, will this mean I will have to go out and buy another car since my Mustang is just sitting.


It all depends on what went wrong with the engine. If it was a manufacturing defect, Ford pays. If Ford Motor Company writes that AMSOIL oil failed (which they have to prove), then contact AMSOIL technical who will begin their own investigation at no cost to you. Generally, it only takes a few phone calls to determine what the problem is, and an independent oil and parts analysis which might take a few days. If there is doubt, AMSOIL will authorize repairs, and if their analysis shows the oil did not fail, they will seek reimbursement from Ford. It should only take a few days longer than regular repairs. You can rent another Mustang in the meantime which should be covered by either company's warranty.


It all comes down to the end user. The OEM will pass it off to the Oil company, who passes it off to the end user. The end user will have to PROVE they did everything just right. That of course includes documentation. As far as the bigger engines go, if you are doing extended drains, you'd better being doing regular oil analysis over the drain interval.
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/...Number=825144&page=1

Magnason-Moss Act and Amsoil

Tim, I have a question, lets say I by a brand new Ford Mustang and buy Amsoil 100% synthetic oil and I do yearly OCI's.

After the 3 year/ 36,000 mile warranty is up I go ahead and buy an extended warranty from Ford, I buy there Ford ESP Plan and take the warranty out to 100,000 miles. I may not put 25,000 miles on in a year, maybe I might put on anywhere between 15,000 to 20,000 miles a year.

If I have a problem with something going wrong in my engine, it seems you said in that thread that Amsoil would fight for me in court, is there any money out of my pocket, and if Amsoil does battle it out with Ford in court, how long will this process take. I cannot drive my beloved Mustang becuase of whatever went wrong in my engine from doing extended drain intervals with Amsoil. Will this whole legal process take a couple of years, will this mean I will have to go out and buy another car since my Mustang is just sitting.


It all depends on what went wrong with the engine. If it was a manufacturing defect, Ford pays. If Ford Motor Company writes that AMSOIL oil failed (which they have to prove), then contact AMSOIL technical who will begin their own investigation at no cost to you. Generally, it only takes a few phone calls to determine what the problem is, and maybe an independent oil and parts analysis which might take a few days. If there is doubt, AMSOIL will authorize repairs, and if their analysis shows the oil did not fail, they will seek reimbursement from Ford. It should only take a few days longer than regular repairs. I have never heard of it going to court. Usually the outcome of the 3rd party oil and part analysis is very clear what caused the failure, thus which company is responsible. You can rent another Mustang in the meantime which should be covered by either company's warranty.


Let's say it was a lubrication failure, like a rod or some other lubricated part that goes bad, your telling me that if Ford denies my warranty because I did extended drains with Amsoil, so Amsoil is going to jump in and take care of this in a few days, that sounds really optimistic, I just might have to go and let my Amsoil Rep read this thread and see what he thinks.
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:

Let's say it was a lubrication failure, like a rod or some other lubricated part that goes bad, your telling me that if Ford denies my warranty because I did extended drains with Amsoil, so Amsoil is going to jump in and take care of this in a few days, that sounds really optimistic, I just might have to go and let my Amsoil Rep read this thread and see what he thinks.
It depends why the lubricated part went bad. If the lubricated part goes bad, because of a manufacturing defect, Ford pays. If the lubricant failed, then AMSOIL pays. It shouldn't take more than a few days to determine the cause of the failure. You might consider calling AMSOIL technical to verify.
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:

Let's say it was a lubrication failure, like a rod or some other lubricated part that goes bad, your telling me that if Ford denies my warranty because I did extended drains with Amsoil, so Amsoil is going to jump in and take care of this in a few days, that sounds really optimistic, I just might have to go and let my Amsoil Rep read this thread and see what he thinks.
It depends why the lubricated part went bad. If the lubricated part goes bad, because of a manufacturing defect, Ford pays. If the lubricant failed, then AMSOIL pays. It shouldn't take more than a few days to determine the cause of the failure. You might consider calling AMSOIL technical to verify.


So, it is going to take Amsoil only a couple of days to send someone out and verify that it was there oil that failed. I am going to talk with my Amsoil Rep instead of calling the Amsoil Tech Line, at least with my Amsoil Rep I can look him in the eye when I talk with him as opposed to some carefully worded response from an Amsoil tech that is talking from a script to me from over the phone.

This all just sounds to good to be true, I think I will stick with the manufactures suggested OCI.
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:

Let's say it was a lubrication failure, like a rod or some other lubricated part that goes bad, your telling me that if Ford denies my warranty because I did extended drains with Amsoil, so Amsoil is going to jump in and take care of this in a few days, that sounds really optimistic, I just might have to go and let my Amsoil Rep read this thread and see what he thinks.
It depends why the lubricated part went bad. If the lubricated part goes bad, because of a manufacturing defect, Ford pays. If the lubricant failed, then AMSOIL pays. It shouldn't take more than a few days to determine the cause of the failure. You might consider calling AMSOIL technical to verify.


So, it is going to take Amsoil only a couple of days to send someone out and verify that it was there oil that failed. I am going to talk with my Amsoil Rep instead of calling the Amsoil Tech Line, at least with my Amsoil Rep I can look him in the eye when I talk with him as opposed to some carefully worded response from an Amsoil tech that is talking from a script to me from over the phone.

This all just sounds to good to be true, I think I will stick with the manufactures suggested OCI.


Better yet, why don't you email AMSOIL technical with your warranty question, so you can get their answer back in writing. They are the one responsible for the warranty, not an AMSOIL Dealer. Then you can paste their answer here.

Here is a copy of the AMSOIL warranty: http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g1363.pdf?zo=1181889 .

Here is a copy of the AMSOIL claim procedure: http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g40.pdf?zo=1181889 .
Lots of the use of the words "it depends", it does depend. Sometimes it depends upon a lawyer, or a regional manger, and how good a fighter you are. All the while the car sits useless.

As far as Amsoil sometimes paying out as "Goodwill" they'll put a limit on how good their Goodwill is! If it is big Bucks, it will be handed right on over the their legal dept.

MFG suggested approved oils, and their suggested intervals are your best bet till the warranty runs out.

AD
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
Lots of the use of the words "it depends", it does depend. Sometimes it depends upon a lawyer, or a regional manger, and how good a fighter you are. All the while the car sits useless.
I haven't seen that with AMSOIL. If you have, please post.

quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:As far as Amsoil sometimes paying out as "Goodwill" they'll put a limit on how good their Goodwill is! If it is big Bucks, it will be handed right on over the their legal dept.
I don't see where AMSOIL has any warranty complaints with any consumer, consumer organization, or government agency. If you do, please post.

quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:MFG suggested approved oils, and their suggested intervals are your best bet till the warranty runs out.
Unless the MFG suggested approved oils and suggested intervals fail, as has been the case with Toyota, VW, Audi, Chrysler, and Saab, Dodge, Jeep, Lexus, who had to revise their oil recommendations, change intervals and caused the customers to pay out of pocket and lengthen their warranty coverage. Then it could fall back to the oil company. That is why I like to use a better oil than their recommended approved oils that barely meet their spec, and a company with an outstanding warranty, should their products ever fail.
1: Do you like having to make payments on a car sitting on a lot while the game of "They said/They said" goes through the courts?

2: Do you want to be the walnut between the jaws of an oil maker and a car maker?

3: Do you really want to go on public record telling the world why you're too stupid to follow the mfg warranty?

Or would you rather just follow the contract you agreed to by buying the car in the first place, and avoid all the above?
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
1: Do you like having to make payments on a car sitting on a lot while the game of "They said/They said" goes through the courts?
Do you know of such a case with AMSOIL? Please post.

quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:2: Do you want to be the walnut between the jaws of an oil maker and a car maker?
Do you know of such a case with AMSOIL? Please post.

quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:3: Do you really want to go on public record telling the world why you're too stupid to follow the mfg warranty?
Do you know of such a case with AMSOIL? Please post.

quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:3:Or would you rather just follow the contract you agreed to by buying the car in the first place, and avoid all the above?
Again, this is what GM says:

“The New Vehicle Warranty would not be void simply because an owner failed to use proper engine oils or did not perform maintenance at the prescribed intervals. Warranty applicability is contingent upon the cause of failure.”
Service Policies and Procedures Department,
General Motors Corporation “

And again, Unless the MFG suggested approved oils and suggested intervals fail, as has been the case with Toyota, VW, Audi, Chrysler, and Saab, Dodge, Jeep, Lexus, who had to revise their oil recommendations, change intervals and caused the customers to pay out of pocket and lengthen their warranty coverage. Then it could fall back to the oil company. That is why I like to use a better oil than their recommended approved oils that barely meet their spec, and a company with an outstanding warranty, should their products ever fail.
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:

1: Do you like having to make payments on a car sitting on a lot while the game of "They said/They said" goes through the courts?


YES or you will destroy your credit, and run the risk of a repo.


quote:
2: Do you want to be the walnut between the jaws of an oil maker and a car maker?


Nope, but you will!

quote:
3: Do you really want to go on public record telling the world why you're too stupid to follow the mfg warranty?


No

quote:
Or would you rather just follow the contract you agreed to by buying the car in the first place, and avoid all the above?


Yep. Actually quite simple Trajan, some people just like to complicate things.


Remember many times when a company pays a settlement for a claim both parties sign papers that they won't disclose terms of the settlement. That helps maintain a company's reputation, that agreement is legally binding too, it is part of the settlement. So finding something on the internet would be tough. Service writers and my machine shop buddy told me of customer woes not using approved oil, and not following the mfg recommended OCI's. A Honda writer told me of problems with Amsoil ATF used in an Accord., some universal fluid they offer.

AD
Poor shift quality, which was resolved by changing the fluid back to the Honda ATF. Customer was an avid DIY'er and decided to change his ATF to Amsoil ATF, according to the service writer the job was done properly. The guy took the car into Honda to have it checked out, they drained and refilled with Honda ATF problem solved. There are a few cases of this in some of the Honda forums I was told. I did not look for myself. There are also people satisfied with Amsoil ATF in Honda cars.

AD
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
Poor shift quality, which was resolved by changing the fluid back to the Honda ATF. Customer was an avid DIY'er and decided to change his ATF to Amsoil ATF, according to the service writer the job was done properly. The guy took the car into Honda to have it checked out, they drained and refilled with Honda ATF problem solved. There are a few cases of this in some of the Honda forums I was told. I did not look for myself. There are also people satisfied with Amsoil ATF in Honda cars.

AD
I'm reading at BITOG http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/...=1902558#Post1902558 that they seem to prefer AMSOIL ATF over the Honda Z1. It is unanimous so far in that thread. And in this BITOG thread http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/...umber=1852119&page=2 . And this BITOG thread http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/...umber=1631140&page=7 .
And this at BITOG http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/...wflat&Number=1107830 .
And this BITOG http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/...umber=1253297&page=2 .
Last edited by timvipond
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
I'm not talking about Bitog I'm talking about a Honda service writer Tim. I figured you'd ref that thread.

There are a lot of stories floating around about people having issues with Amsoil ATF. Look you'll find them.

Just like the issues they're having with their oil filters.

AD
So one quote from a Honda service writer about one transmission outweighs dozens of testimonials on BITOG? I've looked in and posted 5 threads so far and haven't found any AMSOIL ATF issues yet. They all said the AMSOIL ATF was better than the Honda Z1. Please post the issues about people having issues with the AMSOIL ATF. Several mentioned they got the idea to switch from the Honda Z1 to AMSOIL from the rave reviews AMSOIL got in Honda forums.
Last edited by timvipond
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
Here are some Honda Techs and an Amsoil rep going at it. Seems you guys quote the same junk, is that how you were trained? Clones?
Junk? What junk? I was trained as a chemist and research scientist. I don't know how the other AMSOIL rep was trained. We probably read similar AMSOIL and competitor technical information, motor oil publications, tribology books and testing.

quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:I'd take the word of a Honda tech first.
They both state their case. But the tie breaker is all the Honda customer posts that used both and prefer AMSOIL over the Honda Z1.

Also, take a look at the MSDS for the Honda Z1. "Refined Mineral oil" 80-85% Hydrocrack and Hydrotreated paraffinic oil" Flash Point 186C min.
Compare to AMSOIL. 100% Synthetic Universal Automatic Transmission Fluid .
Flash Point 220C.

I also can not find the Honda Z-1 Product Data Sheets that list product specifications, yet AMSOIL's is easily found. You have to wonder if it is because they don't want consumers to compare specifications and test results.

So the AMSOIL uses a much better chemical synthetic base oil and a much higher flash point than the petroleum nonsynthetic base Z1. I know which I would rather use. No wonder those that have used both, pick AMSOIL.
Last edited by timvipond
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
Even my own mechanic, when I had the tranny/rear end fluid changed, told me it was best to stick with the mfg approved juice.

Even though the car isn't under warranty.

And he lets me bring in my own.
Why did he tell you that? Which vehicle tranny/rear end was this for? What mfg approved juice did you use?
quote:
Also, take a look at the MSDS for the Honda Z1. "Refined Mineral oil" 80-85% Hydrocrack and Hydrotreated paraffinic oil" Flash Point 186C min.
Compare to AMSOIL. 100% Synthetic Universal Automatic Transmission Fluid .
Flash Point 220C.


Tim, you seem to operate under the assumption that its all about basestock. Honda may utilize the stated base oil due to their inherent ability to better handle and additive package. Perhaps Honda has identified a specific friction modifier that wouldn't stay supspended in 100% synthetic basestock.

quote:
So the AMSOIL uses a much better chemical synthetic base oil and a much higher flash point than the petroleum nonsynthetic base Z1. I know which I would rather use. No wonder those that have used both, pick AMSOIL.


Maybe Amsoil needs a higher flashpoint to compensate for missing friction modifier. Please list those that have used both. They way the statement reads is that it is all Amsoil users.
quote:
Originally posted by johnpr3:
Please list those that have used both. They way the statement reads is that it is all Amsoil users.
John, I listed them previously. Here the are again:
I'm reading at BITOG http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/...=1902558#Post1902558 that they seem to prefer AMSOIL ATF over the Honda Z1. It is unanimous so far in that thread. And in this BITOG thread http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/...umber=1852119&page=2 . And this BITOG thread http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/...umber=1631140&page=7 .
And this at BITOG http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/...wflat&Number=1107830 .
And this BITOG http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/...umber=1253297&page=2 .
The proof is in the pudding.
Much as I don't really want to take sides, as I have nothing against Amsoil.....

It's to me, really starting to sound like Amsoil thinks it knows better than those who design and build engines. And have been doing it for far longer than Amsoil has even exsisted.

And that just isn't so. Swill...er synlube acts the same way.

See, this is why I won't use non approved oils. Any oil can claim anything they want. But unless they submit to the auto maker's testing and prove it, that's all it is. A claim.

When it comes to my car, I am the court that you appear before. And the court is not interested in what you think/know/claim, but what you can prove.

And unless you are on the mfg approval list, then you haven't proved anything, and your case is dismissed.
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
Much as I don't really want to take sides, as I have nothing against Amsoil.....

It's to me, really starting to sound like Amsoil thinks it knows better than those who design and build engines. And have been doing it for far longer than Amsoil has even exsisted.

And that just isn't so. Swill...er synlube acts the same way.

See, this is why I won't use non approved oils. Any oil can claim anything they want. But unless they submit to the auto maker's testing and prove it, that's all it is. A claim.

When it comes to my car, I am the court that you appear before. And the court is not interested in what you think/know/claim, but what you can prove.

And unless you are on the mfg approval list, then you haven't proved anything, and your case is dismissed.
If the manufacture requires you to be on their "approved" list, then I would agree with you. But they don't.

Mobil 1 5w30 is on many manufacturers "approved" lists, but was shown by Valvoline and Ashland that it didn't even pass basic API tests for engine wear. No thanks.

There are motor oils that are API certified, that didn't pass API certification tests when API tested them off the shelf. No thanks.

I'd rather use something that has been proven to be much better by undisputed independent ASTM testing and backed by a much better warranty for much longer oil change intervals. More time and money saved, and better for the environment.

So I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
Tim, I talked with my Amsoil rep last nite and it seems doing extended drains is not the easiest thing to do without some work and money by the guy doing the extended drains with Amsoil. He told me if your car is under warranty and the owners manual calls for a 5000 mile OCI and you want to run Amsoil for one year and lets pick 25,000 miles, you better be getting a UOA done every 5000 miles. He also said that each UOA at 5000 miles better look as good as Blackstones Universal Averages for a 5000 mile OCI. He said most of his customers are lucky to get about 13,000 miles out of the Amsoil motor oil while they are under warranty becuase of the driving they do.

Lets say I do not want to do these UOA's and I have a problem at 19,000 miles, some lubricated part in the engine goes bad, I call Amsoil up, they want me to send in a sample of the oil, they contact me after doing an Oil Analysis and say sorry we cannot help you because your TBN was 0.0 they go onto say that you should have been doing UOA's every 5000 miles and you fall under severe service and this oil should have been changed sooner. If Amsoil comes out to investigate and they find anything that is not right, they will say sorry, if you refuse to cooperate, then they will not honor the warranty.

So, I am using a 25,000 mile or one year oil and I have to get under the car every 5000 miles to pull an oil sample, heck if I am under the car taking a sample I might as well change the oil. You better believe even if you do get UOA's done and you have a problem, Amsoil will look for anything that will get them out of paying up. Suppose Amsoil does pay up becuase it is there motor oil's fault, they could turn around and say look we are not going to warranty our oil for one year, use the XL Line instead, I do not think Amsoil is going to take the chance of having to replace another engine or get it fixed, they may do this once or twice, but not three times.

Then we need to look at the true cost of running Amsoil for one year versus using Pennzoil YB at 5000 mile OCI's, and we can throw in Pennzoil Platinum too.

The 2010 Mustang GT takes 6 quarts of oil, but we will need to purchase 2 more quarts of oil for makeup oil and whatever we loose doing a UOA.

8 quarts of Amsoil 0W-30 equals $62.96
1 Oil Filter equals $12.97
PC Fee for a year equals $20.00
Shipping equals $9.85

We are up to $105.78, and yes you need those 2 extra quarts or at least one quart because if you add any other brand of motor oil to the Amsoil motor oil and a problem arises the warranty will be void.

We need to do a UOA every 5000 miles, so 5 UOA's in 25,000 miles.

Blackstone UOA is about $22.50 and add $10.00 for a TBN Test
So $32.50 times 5 UOA's equals $162.50 and add that to the $105.78 and you get $268.28

We need 6 quarts of either PYB or PP, so times 5 oil changes that is 30 quarts of oil, we are going to buy 6 five quart jugs of PP or PYB and on each OCI we will use a 5 quart jug and pour another quart out of the other 5 quart jug.

Pennzoil Platinum is $21.73 a jug with tax, times 6 five quart jugs equals $130.38
PYB is $13.25 a jug with tax, times 6 five quart jugs equals $79.50

We also need 5 Motorcraft Oil Filters, so $3.67 times 5 equals $18.35

Pennzoil Platinum with the oil filters comes to $148.73
PYB with the oil filters comes to $97.85
Amsoil motor oil with an oil filter and the other hidden costs comes to $105.78, take a quart off if you don't want to buy 2 quarts and you are at $97.91

If you want to skimp on those UOA's, guess what, you are up the creek with Amsoil, you need documentation to prove your case with Amsoil.
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
And Ford, et al, doesn't require an UOA for warranty. All they require is that you follow said warranty conditions.


Agreed. AFAIK, as long as you follow the car mfg OCI you don't need a UOA or anything special. Just proof that you bought a mfg approved spec'd oil and the proper filter. Simple just follow directions, and enjoy your wheels.


If API certification, the proper grade of oil, and the recommended interval didn't matter then the OM would most likely read something like this. Add what ever oil you want, run it as long as you want, just keep it full.

AD
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
Tim, I talked with my Amsoil rep last nite and it seems doing extended drains is not the easiest thing to do without some work and money by the guy doing the extended drains with Amsoil. He told me if your car is under warranty and the owners manual calls for a 5000 mile OCI and you want to run Amsoil for one year and lets pick 25,000 miles, you better be getting a UOA done every 5000 miles. He also said that each UOA at 5000 miles better look as good as Blackstones Universal Averages for a 5000 mile OCI. He said most of his customers are lucky to get about 13,000 miles out of the Amsoil motor oil while they are under warranty becuase of the driving they do.
I think that is poor advice. No UOA is required when following AMSOIL's extended drain service intervals. Why pay for a bunch of UOA's when AMSOIL has never caused part failure in 38 years?

quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear: Lets say I do not want to do these UOA's and I have a problem at 19,000 miles, some lubricated part in the engine goes bad, I call Amsoil up, they want me to send in a sample of the oil, they contact me after doing an Oil Analysis and say sorry we cannot help you because your TBN was 0.0 they go onto say that you should have been doing UOA's every 5000 miles and you fall under severe service and this oil should have been changed sooner. If Amsoil comes out to investigate and they find anything that is not right, they will say sorry, if you refuse to cooperate, then they will not honor the warranty.
Wrong again. If the part fails due to a manufacturing defect, the vehicle manufacturer pays. If the part fails due to AMSOIL (never happened in 38 years) then AMSOIL pays.

quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear: So, I am using a 25,000 mile or one year oil and I have to get under the car every 5000 miles to pull an oil sample, heck if I am under the car taking a sample I might as well change the oil. You better believe even if you do get UOA's done and you have a problem, Amsoil will look for anything that will get them out of paying up. Suppose Amsoil does pay up becuase it is there motor oil's fault, they could turn around and say look we are not going to warranty our oil for one year, use the XL Line instead, I do not think Amsoil is going to take the chance of having to replace another engine or get it fixed, they may do this once or twice, but not three times.
Wrong. AMSOIL does not require UOA's if you follow their oil recommendations. The only time they require UOAs are if you take the oil past the interval they recommend.

quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear: Then we need to look at the true cost of running Amsoil for one year versus using Pennzoil YB at 5000 mile OCI's, and we can throw in Pennzoil Platinum too.
AMSOIL has already done this for you at http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g1971.pdf?zo=1181889 . AMSOIL cost was $44.50 for 25,000 miles, Pennzoil Platinum was $162.25 for 25,000 miles. This is why 3500 Texas State Police have used AMSOIL for the past 10 years, as has 15,000 other government agencies. It saves them time and money and better for the environment.


quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear: If you want to skimp on those UOA's, guess what, you are up the creek with Amsoil, you need documentation to prove your case with Amsoil.
Again, those UOA's are not required. You will not find that recommendation at www.amsoil.com or anywhere else. The only time you need to run a UOA is if you want to exceed AMSOIL's oil change recommendations. Some people never change their AMSOIL, they just run UOA's when recommended by AMSOIL to verify the oil and engine are fine. Sounds like you need to find a more knowledgeable dealer. You can also contact AMSOIL tech service to verify. AMSOIL extended changes are indeed the easiest thing to do.
Last edited by timvipond
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
And Ford, et al, doesn't require an UOA for warranty. All they require is that you follow said warranty conditions.
Here is what GM says, and Ford will say the same:

“The New Vehicle Warranty would not be void simply because an owner failed to use proper engine oils or did not perform maintenance at the prescribed intervals. Warranty applicability is contingent upon the cause of failure.”
Service Policies and Procedures Department,
General Motors Corporation “
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:

If API certification, the proper grade of oil, and the recommended interval didn't matter then the OM would most likely read something like this. Add what ever oil you want, run it as long as you want, just keep it full.

AD
This is what GM says:

“The New Vehicle Warranty would not be void simply because an owner failed to use proper engine oils or did not perform maintenance at the prescribed intervals. Warranty applicability is contingent upon the cause of failure.”
Service Policies and Procedures Department,
General Motors Corporation “
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
Tim, I talked with my Amsoil rep last nite and it seems doing extended drains is not the easiest thing to do without some work and money by the guy doing the extended drains with Amsoil. He told me if your car is under warranty and the owners manual calls for a 5000 mile OCI and you want to run Amsoil for one year and lets pick 25,000 miles, you better be getting a UOA done every 5000 miles. He also said that each UOA at 5000 miles better look as good as Blackstones Universal Averages for a 5000 mile OCI. He said most of his customers are lucky to get about 13,000 miles out of the Amsoil motor oil while they are under warranty becuase of the driving they do.
He is wrong. No UOA is required when following AMSOIL's extended drain service intervals.

The man is giving his customers sound advise. Would you want to run oil with a TBN of ZERO. The UOA will give a snapshot of how the oil is doing.



Keep in mind, you say "Amsoil pays". They don't pay their insurance company pays, we all know how insurance companies pay.


AMSOIL is just saying they are not responsible for the previously used lubricants, maintenance and drain intervals before AMSOIL, should those be found to cause the failure. After the installation of AMSOIL's products, you are warranted by AMSOIL's service recommendations.

Again previously used lubricants is the way out for the insurance company. Hire the right people to make the determination of what failed and you can get them to say anything you want. Again, have a problem hire a lawyer. Use something the automaker endorses, make life easier in the event of a problem.

AD
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
Tim, I talked with my Amsoil rep last nite and it seems doing extended drains is not the easiest thing to do without some work and money by the guy doing the extended drains with Amsoil. He told me if your car is under warranty and the owners manual calls for a 5000 mile OCI and you want to run Amsoil for one year and lets pick 25,000 miles, you better be getting a UOA done every 5000 miles. He also said that each UOA at 5000 miles better look as good as Blackstones Universal Averages for a 5000 mile OCI. He said most of his customers are lucky to get about 13,000 miles out of the Amsoil motor oil while they are under warranty becuase of the driving they do.
He is wrong. No UOA is required when following AMSOIL's extended drain service intervals.

The man is giving his customers sound advise. Would you want to run oil with a TBN of ZERO. The UOA will give a snapshot of how the oil is doing.



Keep in mind, you say "Amsoil pays". They don't pay their insurance company pays, we all know how insurance companies pay.


AMSOIL is just saying they are not responsible for the previously used lubricants, maintenance and drain intervals before AMSOIL, should those be found to cause the failure. After the installation of AMSOIL's products, you are warranted by AMSOIL's service recommendations.

Again previously used lubricants is the way out for the insurance company. Hire the right people to make the determination of what failed and you can get them to say anything you want. Again, have a problem hire a lawyer. Use something the automaker endorses, make life easier in the event of a problem.

AD
Please show where AMSOIL was the cause of a failure in 38 years. Please show where any consumer or government agency has any issues with AMSOIL's warranty. They wouldn't be in business for 38 years if their products did not perform as advertised. Please show where any AMSOIL customer had to hire a lawyer. If the automaker endorses an oil that failed, how does that make life easier? The automaker warrants against defective parts, not defective oil.
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Big Bear:
Tim, I talked with my Amsoil rep last nite and it seems doing extended drains is not the easiest thing to do without some work and money by the guy doing the extended drains with Amsoil. He told me if your car is under warranty and the owners manual calls for a 5000 mile OCI and you want to run Amsoil for one year and lets pick 25,000 miles, you better be getting a UOA done every 5000 miles. He also said that each UOA at 5000 miles better look as good as Blackstones Universal Averages for a 5000 mile OCI. He said most of his customers are lucky to get about 13,000 miles out of the Amsoil motor oil while they are under warranty becuase of the driving they do.
He is wrong. No UOA is required when following AMSOIL's extended drain service intervals.

The man is giving his customers sound advise. Would you want to run oil with a TBN of ZERO. The UOA will give a snapshot of how the oil is doing.



I think he is giving poor advice. Why pay for UOAs when the oil has proven it has not caused a parts failure in 38 years?

quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1: Keep in mind, you say "Amsoil pays". They don't pay their insurance company pays, we all know how insurance companies pay.


AMSOIL is just saying they are not responsible for the previously used lubricants, maintenance and drain intervals before AMSOIL, should those be found to cause the failure. After the installation of AMSOIL's products, you are warranted by AMSOIL's service recommendations.

Again previously used lubricants is the way out for the insurance company. Hire the right people to make the determination of what failed and you can get them to say anything you want. Again, have a problem hire a lawyer. Use something the automaker endorses, make life easier in the event of a problem.

AD
Last edited by timvipond
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:

quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Big Bear:
Tim, I talked with my Amsoil rep last nite and it seems doing extended drains is not the easiest thing to do without some work and money by the guy doing the extended drains with Amsoil. He told me if your car is under warranty and the owners manual calls for a 5000 mile OCI and you want to run Amsoil for one year and lets pick 25,000 miles, you better be getting a UOA done every 5000 miles. He also said that each UOA at 5000 miles better look as good as Blackstones Universal Averages for a 5000 mile OCI. He said most of his customers are lucky to get about 13,000 miles out of the Amsoil motor oil while they are under warranty becuase of the driving they do.
He is wrong. No UOA is required when following AMSOIL's extended drain service intervals.

The man is giving his customers sound advise. Would you want to run oil with a TBN of ZERO. The UOA will give a snapshot of how the oil is doing.



I think he is giving poor advice. Why pay for UOAs when the oil has proven it has not caused a parts failure in 38 years?


Only a fool would extend drain intervals without doing oil analysis. What happens when you lose an O-ring in a injector, but the oil is still under the mileage warranty? Who'se to blame? Case in point - a fleet I work with has been doing extended drains for many years...with great success. A recent oil analysis showed fuel dilution. With that information, they tested other trucks in the fleet. Many trucks in the 800k mile range were starting to show fuel dilution. The problem was quickly identified (O-rings on injectors starting to leak) and taken care of before catastrophic failure. Assuming it was Amsoil in the engine and UOA wasn't necessary and eved discouraged as a waste of money, who would be to blame if they didn't catch the problem in time? My guess is Amsoil would blame the ULSD fuel and, of course, the end user.
quote:
Originally posted by johnpr3:

Only a fool would extend drain intervals without doing oil analysis. What happens when you lose an O-ring in a injector, but the oil is still under the mileage warranty? Who'se to blame?
If the vehicle is under warranty, and the failure was due to a manufacturing defect in the O-ring, then the vehicle manufacturer pays.
quote:
Originally posted by johnpr3:Case in point - a fleet I work with has been doing extended drains for many years...with great success. A recent oil analysis showed fuel dilution. With that information, they tested other trucks in the fleet. Many trucks in the 800k mile range were starting to show fuel dilution. The problem was quickly identified (O-rings on injectors starting to leak) and taken care of before catastrophic failure. Assuming it was Amsoil in the engine and UOA wasn't necessary and eved discouraged as a waste of money, who would be to blame if they didn't catch the problem in time? My guess is Amsoil would blame the ULSD fuel and, of course, the end user.
Most fleets extend their oil change intervals with the use of UOAs. Many fleets using AMSOIL also use UOAs when extending past the AMSOIL recommendation. In both cases, they usually do not change their oil until the UOA shows they should. In either case, it would show fuel dilution. Some trucks are known to have problems with fuel dilution, and AMSOIL does not recommend extended oil change intervals unless they do UOAs. If the fuel dilution caused the failure, then AMSOIL or any oil would not be liable. However, AMSOIL has shown that their oil holds up better than Rotella, Delo, Mobil and Valvoline with high levels of fuel dilution. See http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g2752.pdf?zo=1181889 for details.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by johnpr3:

Only a fool would extend drain intervals without doing oil analysis. What happens when you lose an O-ring in a injector, but the oil is still under the mileage warranty? Who'se to blame?
If the vehicle is under warranty, and the failure was due to a manufacturing defect in the O-ring, then the vehicle manufacturer pays.
quote:
Originally posted by johnpr3:Case in point - a fleet I work with has been doing extended drains for many years...with great success. A recent oil analysis showed fuel dilution. With that information, they tested other trucks in the fleet. Many trucks in the 800k mile range were starting to show fuel dilution. The problem was quickly identified (O-rings on injectors starting to leak) and taken care of before catastrophic failure. Assuming it was Amsoil in the engine and UOA wasn't necessary and eved discouraged as a waste of money, who would be to blame if they didn't catch the problem in time? My guess is Amsoil would blame the ULSD fuel and, of course, the end user.
Most fleets extend their oil change intervals with the use of UOAs. Many fleets using AMSOIL also use UOAs when extending past the AMSOIL recommendation. In both cases, they usually do not change their oil until the UOA shows they should. In either case, it would show fuel dilution. Some trucks are known to have problems with fuel dilution, and AMSOIL does not recommend extended oil change intervals unless they do UOAs. If the fuel dilution caused the failure, then AMSOIL or any oil would not be liable. However, AMSOIL has shown that their oil holds up better than Rotella, Delo, Mobil and Valvoline with high levels of fuel dilution. See http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g2752.pdf?zo=1181889 for details.


With regards to the mileage warranty, I was refering to the oil.

As for the UOAs. It appeared that you were recommending that money shouldn't be wasted on UOAs when going past OEM recommended service intervals. I am glad to see Amsoil recommends oil analysis for fleets and larger engines.
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:

Let's say it was a lubrication failure, like a rod or some other lubricated part that goes bad, your telling me that if Ford denies my warranty because I did extended drains with Amsoil, so Amsoil is going to jump in and take care of this in a few days, that sounds really optimistic, I just might have to go and let my Amsoil Rep read this thread and see what he thinks.
It depends why the lubricated part went bad. If the lubricated part goes bad, because of a manufacturing defect, Ford pays. If the lubricant failed, then AMSOIL pays. It shouldn't take more than a few days to determine the cause of the failure. You might consider calling AMSOIL technical to verify.


I went ahead and called up the Amsoil Tech Line this morning and I got some different information than what you stated above.

The Tech Guy told me that if the Lubricant failed, Amsoil will investigate as to why the lubricated part failed. I asked him how long this process could take, he said it could take a couple of months, I then said is there a possibility this could drag out longer, like 6 months to a year, and he said YES.

So, In this scenario, I can have Ford saying my part went bad becuase of my extended OCI, and then Amsoil will be saying it was not the lubricants fault, but a problem with the part that failed, if Amsoil and Ford are going back and forth this could easily drag on for more than a year. So my car that I am making payments on is just sitting, and I am supposed to drive a rental car around until this is taken care of, who is going to pay for the rental car, me, so I pickup a cheap rental for $16.00 a day, that comes out to $480.00 a month.

Lets say it takes 6 months to clear everything up, $480.00 a month times 6 equals $2880.00

So when Amsoil and Ford are battling this out, who is the loser, its me, since I have to wait many months or longer, and if a rental car is too expensive since I realize I could be spending thousands of dollars on a rental car while I am still making my car payments, I may decide that I have to go out and buy a used car, and you can bet with my experience with extended drains that I will not be doing them on the used car I purchased while I wait for this whole thing to play out.

You are right in that you do not have to do a UOA every 5000 miles, but the Amsoil Tech Guy said this would be good if a problem arises, my Amsoil rep gave me good advice about doing a UOA every 5000 miles since he is looking after my best interests.

The Amsoil Tech Guy said if you are really worried about a problem arising when you are still under warranty with the manufacture that it would be best to use the Amsoil XL Line of Oil's.

He also told me if you read something strange on some internet forum that some Amsoil Salesman posted and you have doubts, just call us on the Tech Line.

Tim tells us this whole process could only take a few days, and the Amsoil Tech Guy tells me it can take a couple of months or more, I think he was being conservative in his estimate of how long the process would take to get resolved, playing " Devil's Advocate" this process could take 2 to 3 years to get resolved.

This whole Extended Warranty Thing is getting real complicated and it seems an Amsoil Dealer and the Amsoil Tech Guy are not on the same page as to how long it will take for a warranty issue to get resolved, the Ford dealer probably has good lawyers and can drag there feet for a long time, since that is the case I will just stick with what the manufacture says and do 5000 mile OCI's with whatever oil I choose too use.

Tim, you better not come back with, " Well the Amsoil Tech Guy was Wrong", becuase anyone with half a brain will not buy that statement.
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:

I went ahead and called up the Amsoil Tech Line this morning and I got some different information than what you stated above.
Which Tech Guy did you speak to?

quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:The Tech Guy told me that if the Lubricant failed, Amsoil will investigate as to why the lubricated part failed. I asked him how long this process could take, he said it could take a couple of months, I then said is there a possibility this could drag out longer, like 6 months to a year, and he said YES.
Did he mention that they could authorize and pay for repairs immediately once they got confirmation from the vehicle manufacturer that they said the oil failed?

quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:So, In this scenario, I can have Ford saying my part went bad becuase of my extended OCI,
They have to state and prove the oil failed. Extended change intervals have nothing to do with it if the oil did not fail.
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear: and then Amsoil will be saying it was not the lubricants fault, but a problem with the part that failed,
AMSOIL would have to prove the oil did not fail and the part did by 3rd party analysis.
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear: if Amsoil and Ford are going back and forth this could easily drag on for more than a year. So my car that I am making payments on is just sitting, and I am supposed to drive a rental car around until this is taken care of, who is going to pay for the rental car, me, so I pickup a cheap rental for $16.00 a day, that comes out to $480.00 a month.
Since AMSOIL would authorize repairs immediately upon getting written notification from Ford that the oil failed, why would your car sit around any longer than normal?

quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear: You are right in that you do not have to do a UOA every 5000 miles,
Told ya.
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear: but the Amsoil Tech Guy said this would be good if a problem arises, my Amsoil rep gave me good advice about doing a UOA every 5000 miles since he is looking after my best interests.
But since AMSOIL has never failed, you would likely be wasting time and money on a UOA for that purpose. But if you want to show that something from Ford is failing and want to catch it early, then you can do that if you want. Otherwise, save your money and wait for the part to fail and Ford will pay.

quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear: The Amsoil Tech Guy said if you are really worried about a problem arising when you are still under warranty with the manufacture that it would be best to use the Amsoil XL Line of Oil's.
That is what I said. For someones peace of mind if using an API certified oil provides that for you. But as AMSOIL, consumer law and the vehicle manufacturers own words, it is not necessary. Again read "Warranties and AMSOIL" http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g2488.pdf?zo=1181889 .

quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:He also told me if you read something strange on some internet forum that some Amsoil Salesman posted and you have doubts, just call us on the Tech Line.
Exactly what I suggested. It would have even been better to email your question in writing and then post the question and response here.

quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:Tim tells us this whole process could only take a few days, and the Amsoil Tech Guy tells me it can take a couple of months or more, I think he was being conservative in his estimate of how long the process would take to get resolved, playing " Devil's Advocate" this process could take 2 to 3 years to get resolved.
I said it would only take a few days for AMSOIL to authorize repairs when they receive a letter from the vehicle manufacturer that the oil failed. If AMSOIL proves that the manufacturer defect caused the problem, they would go after the manufacturer for reimbursement to AMSOIL. Just like I said.

quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:This whole Extended Warranty Thing is getting real complicated and it seems an Amsoil Dealer and the Amsoil Tech Guy are not on the same page as to how long it will take for a warranty issue to get resolved, the Ford dealer probably has good lawyers and can drag there feet for a long time, since that is the case I will just stick with what the manufacture says and do 5000 mile OCI's with whatever oil I choose too use.
I see nothing that the AMSOIL tech or I said that shows we are not on the same page. Only your interpretation of what we each said.

quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:Tim, you better not come back with, " Well the Amsoil Tech Guy was Wrong", becuase anyone with half a brain will not buy that statement.
Why would I say that? I am in complete agreement with what he said. Just not in complete agreement with what you said.

I am still looking for the name, phone number, or dealer number for your neighbor. I've searched some info I have and see no dealer in New York that has more sales and at a higher level than I.
Last edited by timvipond
quote:
Since AMSOIL would authorize repairs immediately upon getting written notification from Ford that the oil failed, why would your car sit around any longer than normal?


Because Amsoil will want to investigate why the oil failed, you think Amsoil is going to just fork over the money to fix the car once Ford tells them there oil is spent. In case you do not remember, in the Amsoil Warranty they clearly state that you need to send in an Oil Sample to Amsoil, and they will also do a full investigation, and if you happen to lose your receipt that shows what you have purchased from Amsoil, then Amsoil is off the hook.

You are making this whole thing sound like the car breaks down on a Monday and Amsoil and Ford resolved this Lightening Quick and you get the car back on Friday, give me a break.
Only if an oil is determined to be the direct cause of an engine problem can a manufacturer or dealership deny warranty coverage for that specific problem. In this situation the AMSOIL warranty would apply, and the AMSOIL Technical Services Department would assist you in processing your claim and getting your vehicle repaired. That's AMSOIL's pledge to you. AMSOIL Inc. sells millions of gallons of oil per year and warranty claims are a rare occurrence. If you ever have a warranty problem with an automobile manufacturer (or snowmobile, boat, RV, motorcycle, etc...) or dealership, AMSOIL will assist you by analyzing the problem and providing data supporting the fact that repairs should be made under the vehicle manufacturer's warranty. If this does not resolve the problem. AMSOIL will submit a claim with their insurance company and request that an adjuster have the vehicle repaired and pursue legal settlement later if necessary. The fact is there never has been an engine failure attributed to the non-performance of AMSOIL products, and we do not expect there ever will be. If it ever did, both AMSOIL and their insurance company would make certain your problem was resolved.

Tim, I got this from the Amsoil Site, so tell me how long will it take for this situation to get resolved, how long does the claim process with Amsoil's insurance take to get resolved.

Then we need to have some insurance adjuster come and check on things, this is sounding like a long process.
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
quote:
Since AMSOIL would authorize repairs immediately upon getting written notification from Ford that the oil failed, why would your car sit around any longer than normal?


Because Amsoil will want to investigate why the oil failed, you think Amsoil is going to just fork over the money to fix the car once Ford tells them there oil is spent.
Yes, if Ford Motor Company states in writing that the oil failed, not spent, and AMSOIL has received a copy, a sample of your oil, and the other items they ask for to help them find the cause of failure.
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear: In case you do not remember, in the Amsoil Warranty they clearly state that you need to send in an Oil Sample to Amsoil, and they will also do a full investigation, and if you happen to lose your receipt that shows what you have purchased from Amsoil, then Amsoil is off the hook.
When you have a repair and suspect the AMSOIL may have possibly been the problem, then contact AMSOIL Technical immediately. That way when Ford is working on their findings, AMSOIL can begin working on theirs. AMSOIL wants proof that you have AMSOIL in the engine, and one of the ways is to provide them with your receipt. If you purchase direct from AMSOIL, they will have a record of your purchase. If you buy direct from your dealer, he should issue you a receipt. I think every oil company and vehicle manufacturer recommends you keep your receipts for proof of purchase.

quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:You are making this whole thing sound like the car breaks down on a Monday and Amsoil and Ford resolved this Lightening Quick and you get the car back on Friday, give me a break.
It depends a lot on Ford. How long it takes them to do failure analysis and prove the oil failed. Once AMSOIL gets this in writing, they can authorize repairs on your car. They can later get reimbursed from Ford. Ford could also step up and authorize repairs and get reimbursed from AMSOIL if they value you as a customer.

I've never heard of any of this being a big deal and that the customer was without his car for months. Please show that this has happened.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:You are making this whole thing sound like the car breaks down on a Monday and Amsoil and Ford resolved this Lightening Quick and you get the car back on Friday, give me a break.

It depends a lot on Ford. How long it takes them to do failure analysis and prove the oil failed. Once AMSOIL gets this in writing, they can authorize repairs on your car. They can later get reimbursed from Ford. Ford could also step and authorize repairs and get reimbursed from AMSOIL if they value you as a customer.



I hope we are on the same page that this process will take sometime, so now you say it depends on Ford, sorry I am not buddies with Mr. Ford, the CEO of the Company, so the Tech Guy in a sense is correct in that it will take sometime to get everything resolved, what is the time limit on something like this getting resolved, I do not have to show any proof, you are the Amsoil Salesman, not me, show us a case where everything was smooth sailing with an Amsoil Warranty Claim.

You are really sugar coating things here, that's why I like talking with the Amsoil Tech Guy, becuase at least I will be getting closer to the truth with him.
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
Only if an oil is determined to be the direct cause of an engine problem can a manufacturer or dealership deny warranty coverage for that specific problem. In this situation the AMSOIL warranty would apply, and the AMSOIL Technical Services Department would assist you in processing your claim and getting your vehicle repaired. That's AMSOIL's pledge to you. AMSOIL Inc. sells millions of gallons of oil per year and warranty claims are a rare occurrence. If you ever have a warranty problem with an automobile manufacturer (or snowmobile, boat, RV, motorcycle, etc...) or dealership, AMSOIL will assist you by analyzing the problem and providing data supporting the fact that repairs should be made under the vehicle manufacturer's warranty. If this does not resolve the problem. AMSOIL will submit a claim with their insurance company and request that an adjuster have the vehicle repaired and pursue legal settlement later if necessary. The fact is there never has been an engine failure attributed to the non-performance of AMSOIL products, and we do not expect there ever will be. If it ever did, both AMSOIL and their insurance company would make certain your problem was resolved.

Tim, I got this from the Amsoil Site, so tell me how long will it take for this situation to get resolved, how long does the claim process with Amsoil's insurance take to get resolved.

Then we need to have some insurance adjuster come and check on things, this is sounding like a long process.
Since AMSOIL stated "there has never been an engine failure attributed to the non-performance of AMSOIL products" I think the whole discussion is moot.

So it really depends on how long Ford takes to do their part and oil analysis and to authorize repairs.

I don't see, nor have ever heard, where an AMSOIL insurance adjuster comes to check on things since AMSOIL has the oil and parts and the 3rd party analysis performed.

I have never heard of it being described as a long process.

The rare cases I have heard of are the dealership claiming the oil or extended intervals are to blame. Then a call to AMSOIL should be made. Normally, that is enough for the dealership to contact Ford and repairs are then made.
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:You are making this whole thing sound like the car breaks down on a Monday and Amsoil and Ford resolved this Lightening Quick and you get the car back on Friday, give me a break.

It depends a lot on Ford. How long it takes them to do failure analysis and prove the oil failed. Once AMSOIL gets this in writing, they can authorize repairs on your car. They can later get reimbursed from Ford. Ford could also step and authorize repairs and get reimbursed from AMSOIL if they value you as a customer.



I hope we are on the same page that this process will take sometime, so now you say it depends on Ford, sorry I am not buddies with Mr. Ford, the CEO of the Company, so the Tech Guy in a sense is correct in that it will take sometime to get everything resolved, what is the time limit on something like this getting resolved, I do not have to show any proof, you are the Amsoil Salesman, not me, show us a case where everything was smooth sailing with an Amsoil Warranty Claim.

You are really sugar coating things here, that's why I like talking with the Amsoil Tech Guy, becuase at least I will be getting closer to the truth with him.
Then I suggest you talking with the AMSOIL Tech guy and ask him your questions.
quote:
Since AMSOIL stated "there has never been an engine failure attributed to the non-performance of AMSOIL products" I think the whole discussion is moot.


I am not buying what Amsoil is saying here, I have seen to many lousy UOA's with Amsoil being spent between 13,000 and 17,000 miles. I think there have been some problems and Amsoil is just keeping quiet.

I know Amsoil makes some good products, but I have seen to many other companies say things that were really not true, so I am skeptical.

Everything Redline has told me has turned out to be true, I am just having doubts about Amsoil.
quote:
Originally posted by johnpr3:
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:

quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Big Bear:
Tim, I talked with my Amsoil rep last nite and it seems doing extended drains is not the easiest thing to do without some work and money by the guy doing the extended drains with Amsoil. He told me if your car is under warranty and the owners manual calls for a 5000 mile OCI and you want to run Amsoil for one year and lets pick 25,000 miles, you better be getting a UOA done every 5000 miles. He also said that each UOA at 5000 miles better look as good as Blackstones Universal Averages for a 5000 mile OCI. He said most of his customers are lucky to get about 13,000 miles out of the Amsoil motor oil while they are under warranty becuase of the driving they do.
He is wrong. No UOA is required when following AMSOIL's extended drain service intervals.

The man is giving his customers sound advise. Would you want to run oil with a TBN of ZERO. The UOA will give a snapshot of how the oil is doing.



I think he is giving poor advice. Why pay for UOAs when the oil has proven it has not caused a parts failure in 38 years?


Only a fool would extend drain intervals without doing oil analysis. What happens when you lose an O-ring in a injector, but the oil is still under the mileage warranty? Who'se to blame? Case in point - a fleet I work with has been doing extended drains for many years...with great success. A recent oil analysis showed fuel dilution. With that information, they tested other trucks in the fleet. Many trucks in the 800k mile range were starting to show fuel dilution. The problem was quickly identified (O-rings on injectors starting to leak) and taken care of before catastrophic failure. Assuming it was Amsoil in the engine and UOA wasn't necessary and eved discouraged as a waste of money, who would be to blame if they didn't catch the problem in time? My guess is Amsoil would blame the ULSD fuel and, of course, the end user.



Nice example, and it shows how reps giving bad advise can cost the end user big money. UOA's are a waste was the advise given here. If one of those engines in the example you gave failed it would not be oil related, Amsoil would be off the hook. I'd grab the rep that told me UOA's were a waste, and see where that would get me in court. Most likely he'd swear he didn't discuss UOA's with you and it would be your word against his. That's why these boards are nice since we have the bad advise given in writing here. Amsoil obviously has no control over what these reps say. Good thing you had the brains to do a UOA.

AD
Going with BB's above scenario, Ford is not going to pay. You used a non approved oil and went over the oci. In plain English, you failed to follow the warranty.

So now it's Amsoil vs the poor guy who used it.

Amsoil isn't going to prove their oil is at fault. That's your job. Ford doesn't have to prove they're not at fault. You failed to follow the contract.

The vice is closing on your nuts, and it isn't your hand on the handle.

Follow the mfg warranty and stay out of the vice.
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
Going with BB's above scenario, Ford is not going to pay. You used a non approved oil and went over the oci. In plain English, you failed to follow the warranty.
The Ford warranty is not contingent on an approved oil or the oci if the oil did not cause the failure. This is discussed in the links below. If the Ford part was defective, Ford pays under their warranty. Ford has to prove AMSOIL was defective, which they have not in 38 years. If Ford proves the AMSOIL was defective, AMSOIL pays. Pretty simple.



You can read what AMSOIL, the vehicle manufactures and consumer law says about AMSOIL and warranties at http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g2488.pdf?zo=1181889 .
Here is another link: http://www.amsoil.com/news/200...nties.pdf?zo=1181889 . Not sure how to make it any clearer than that.
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
Going with BB's above scenario, Ford is not going to pay. You used a non approved oil and went over the oci. In plain English, you failed to follow the warranty.
The Ford warranty is not contingent on an approved oil or the oci if the oil did not cause the failure. This is discussed in the links below. If the Ford part was defective, Ford pays under their warranty. Ford has to prove AMSOIL was defective, which they have not in 38 years. If Ford proves the AMSOIL was defective, AMSOIL pays. Pretty simple.



You can read what AMSOIL, the vehicle manufactures and consumer law says about AMSOIL and warranties at http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g2488.pdf?zo=1181889 .
Here is another link: http://www.amsoil.com/news/200...nties.pdf?zo=1181889 . Not sure how to make it any clearer than that.


I have about as much faith in Amsoil's Warranty as I do with what Tim has said in this thread, I'll pass on both and just use a cheaper oil that is just as good as Amsoil Motor Oil.
The warranty is a contract. You do not follow the obligations agreed to under the contract, you forfiet any benefit of said contract.

The manufacturer is obligated only if you follow the warranty, and you get problems anyway.

All those class action suits against the auto makers proved that.

I'm not interested in what Amsoil says about it. I don't care if it's been in the oil business for 38 years.

Ford has been in business for 107 years. Never once filed bankruptcy. Didn't go for gov't bailouts. Never, as far as I've been able to find, has had any problems stemming from using mfg approved oils in any engine they've designed.

No company that makes oil is ever going to convince me that they know better than the engine makers.

Especially if they are too cheap to have said engine makers test their oil.

How about this. Link to cases where, oh, let's say, Ford, paid. Even though the car owner violated the warranty.

No Amsoil links.
Reason NOT to use Amsoil
Pablo Offline


Registered: 10/28/02
Posts: 39312
Loc: Duvall WA - Pacific NW USA
Honestly the discussions on Noria are degrading and almost disgusting. I hope we don't reach that low. On one hand you have an Amsoil dealer who just won't let it go. He's over the top IMHO. In the other corner there appears to be a biased ring leader who thinks he's "outing" people by posting their bio information in the middle of an oil/filter thread. No knowledge to be gained there. I pretty much gave up posting on NORIA unless someone drags my name into it.
_________________________
See PABLO at oilslubesfilters.com

I actually think it is nice to find out the other occupations that Amsoil Dealers had before they started selling Amsoil.

Just pay the $35.00 fee and you are an Amsoil Dealer, and then you can give advice on what lubricants people should or should not be using.
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
The warranty is a contract. You do not follow the obligations agreed to under the contract, you forfiet any benefit of said contract.


“Installation or the use of special materials does not, in and of itself, void the New Vehicle Limited Warranties.”
Service and Parts Operations,
Chrysler Corporation


“If engine damage otherwise covered by warranty was found to be unrelated to the engine lubricant, then the consumer’s practice with regard to oil change intervals would not be a relevant consideration, and the warranty claim would be honored.”
Fuels and Lubricants Division,
General Motors Research Laboratories

“The New Vehicle Warranty would not be void simply because an owner failed to use proper engine oils or did not perform maintenance at the
prescribed intervals. Warranty applicability is contingent upon the cause of failure.”
Service Policies and Procedures Department,
General Motors Corporation
Sorry to chime in late, I have been away from the board for a while. If I was the OP, I would go with Motorcraft oil, either the blend or full syn. M/C filters and follow the recommended OCI while under warranty. Motorcraft oil (Conoco-Phillips), meets all of Ford's specs and there would be no-doubt if a warranty claim should arise. The dealer is probably selling Amsoil Xl at the usual stealership markup (75% or more) and will tell you to come back in 3K miles (maybe 5K). It is just more incentive to get people to come into the service bay. They may shoot themselves in the foot though, if they install non API/Ford Spec oil, especially when a warranty claim should come through the door.

Dave
Just wanted to say the same thing on this thread as the other.

I have been reading these threads for a while now. I have to laugh at the guys spending money and driving themselves crazy over those 'flawed' UOA's.

I have never done a UOA,and have never worn out an engine,or failed inspection for emissions due to engine issues,including cars purchased with 100K,I drove to 200K.


You guys are obsessing way to much on those flawed 'UOA's.

I haved used/use Amsoil,and I have found it to be far superior to any store bought oil,period. Why?....engines were notably quieter, even the #1 "race proven" stuff can't compete.

My marine mechanic co-worker has also stated the same using amsoil. Again,engines were quieter,no lifter taps after hard runs.

All I see from the negative neds is,what if this,what if that. JUST CRAZY!!!

Well here is a what if scenario for you to ponder...........what if all those blown/sludged engines in all those class action lawsuits with documented proof of following the MFG had used..............AMSOIL, instead of the 'other cheap stuff'???? There's a what if to really ponder.

Amsoil was never involved in those suits or in those engines. There is your ultimate proof how good it is.

One issue I have is with certain makes and models installing "lawn mower sized" oil filters on mid-sized/full sized cars,that might be loading up too soon...or some engines having previous sludge before amsoil was installed giving blame to amsoil,where the previous oil was to blame.

I think the 'micro-sized' oil filters should have a lower mileage change interval,unless one can find a suitable upgrade for their application,such as the CM FILTER.

Just the facts..........not what if this,or that, nonsense. We are not in the 'TWILIGHT ZONE"...... let's stick to the historical FACTS AT HAND and keep it real!
Last edited by captainkirk
quote:
Originally posted by inHaliburton:
I was in a garage today and looked over the oil filters they were stocking. I was surprised how small those filter are. As you say, lawnmower size filters. What gives?



Those small filters work great when the car is brand new,or under lab conditions. The real world has "struck" them down,almost every time...over time. If synthetic group IV is used from new,they might be ok.

If you ever have the chance to cut open one of those smaller oil filters,the first thing you will notice is the actual filtering media is half the size of the outer can,so it's actually even worse than it seems!!

My VW 1.8t has been upgraded to a 'quart sized' larger filter by the MFG,because of all the sludge issues,which I don't have because of the oil I use. VW now mandates synthetic because the larger filter was not enough to prevent the sludge issues with domestic quick lube motor oil. The synthetic most people use is only group III,good for maybe 30% longer then group II,or around 5,000 miles give or take. The micro filter=3,000 miles with group III,or go for the larger filter if you can cross reference,if not,go for the cm filter.


This is the way to get a larger,superior quality filter if all else fails


http://www.cmfilters.com/oil_filters.html
Last edited by captainkirk
Amsoil Limited Warranty - Lubricants
( for the 50 United States, the District of Columbia and Canada )

Amsoil INC. of Superior, Wisconsin hereby warrants that at the time of sale its lubricants are fit for use according to the written recommendations of Amsoil INC. and in applications for which one or more of the standards set forth in the product data bulletins and product labels are specified. Amsoil INC. further warrants its products to be free of defective materials, design and workmanship.

THIS WARRANTY IS SUBJECT TO THE FOLLOWING LIMITATIONS AND GENERAL DISCLAIMER:

1. This warranty only applies to AMSOIL lubricants for which AMSOIL does not offer a seperate, specific warranty.

2. The warranty herein applies only to AMSOIL lubricants that are packaged by AMSOIL INC. and sold by AMSOIL INC. or an authorized Dealer.

3) The liability of AMSOIL INC. shall be limited to:
a. Replacement of the defective lubricant.
b. The cost, including labor and materials, to repair damaged equipment, or at the option of AMSOIL INC., the cost to replace damaged equipment, resulting directly from the use of AMSOIL lubricants when used in the proper applications.

4) IN NO CASE SHALL AMSOIL INC. BE LIABLE FOR SPECIAL, INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGE OR LOSS OF OTHER PROPERTY OR EQUIPMENT, LOSS OF PROFITS OR REVENUE, COST OF CAPITAL, BUSINESS INTERRUPTION, LODGING, TOWING OR COST OF REPLACEMENT EQUIPMENT. THE LIABILITY OF AMSOIL INC. ARISING OUT OF THE MANUFACTURE, SALE, DELIVERY, INSTALLATION, TECHNICAL DIRECTIONS OR RECOMMENDATION OF ANY LUBRICANT-WHETHER IN CONTRACT, TORT, WARRANTY OR OTHERWISE-SHALL NOT EXCEED THE VALUE OF THE EQUIPMENT IN WHICH THE PRODUCT(S) WERE USED. THE REMEDIES TO THE PURCHASER HEREIN ARE EXCLUSIVE.

5. In the event of a claim against AMSOIL INC., the procedure below must be completly followed:
a. Where the original warranty from the equipment manufacture is still in effect, the customer shall file a warranty claim with the Original Equipment Manufacturer ( OEM ) in accordance with the OEM warranty procedures.
b. Customer shall retain failed parts for inspection by AMSOIL INC. unless given to the OEM.
c. Customer shall also, within 30 days of failure, notify AMSOIL INC. and provide the following:
(a.) An eight (8) ounce represenative oil sample taken from the failed equipment and put into a clean, dry container.
(b.) Documentation including make, model and year of equipment, total accumulated miles and/or hours and duty cycle or service environment.
(c.) Equipment or vehicle maintenance history documentation including miles or hours at the time of Amsoil lubricant installation, general equipment repairs and oil analysis results if available.
(d.) Proof of purchase for AMSOIL lubricant.
(e.) Batch number from oil container or Certificate of Analysis ( if available ).
d. Mail the above sample and information to:
AMSOIL INC.
ATTN: Technical Services
One AMSOIL Center
Superior, WI 54880

e. In cases where the OEM warranty is still in effect and that warranty coverage is denied based on the use of an AMSOIL lubricant, the customer shall immediately notify AMSOIL INC. and provided a written copy of the OEM warranty denial.

f. AMSOIL INC. may, at its option, notify its insurance carrier of the claim.

g. AMSOIL INC. or its insurance carrier may conduct an investigation that includes, but is not limited to, an inspection of the failed parts, a review of the operating conditions and a thorough review of the information requested above. The customer agrees to cooperate with such investigation.

h. If AMSOIL INC. or its insurance carrier pays a claim, an attempt may be made to recover amounts paid from the OEM. If this occurs, the customer may be asked to provide further information pertaining to the failure and to cooperate with AMSOIL INC. or its insurer in the recovery process.

THE WARRANTY SHALL NOT BE EXTENDED TO COVER THE FOLLOWING:

1. Amsoil lubricants used in mechanically deficient equipment as a result of abnormal operation, negligence, abuse, damage from casualty, shipment or accident, or equipment modification using components other than those from AMSOIL or AMSOIL aftermarket partners.

2. AMSOIL lubricants used in any aircraft or aviation application.

3. AMSOIL lubricants that have been used for the purpose of (a) racing or (b) without the written approval of AMSOIL INC. in applications where the OEM-required lubricant standards do not match those stated by AMSOIL INC.

4. AMSOIL lubricants that have been contaminated after leaving the AMSOIL INC> premises due to improper handling, storageor through equipment deficiencies, including filtration, in which an AMSOIL lubricant has been installed.

5. AMSOIL lubricants which have been packaged, regardless of container, by anyone other than AMSOIL INC. or an AMSOIL authorized packager.

6. Any allegedly defective AMSOIL lubricant for which a reasonable sample has not been preserved.

7. Failure of equipment when AMSOIL lubricants are not used in strict accordance with either the written recommendations of AMSOIL INC. or the OEM for warranty coverage.

8. AMSOIL lubricants that have been used in conjunction with any other product or additive that has not been authorized for use by AMSOIL INC.

9. Failure of equipment due to a pre-existing condition that is unrelated to the use of AMSOIL.

10. Repair or replacement of equipment becuase of normal wear.

AMSOIL SHALL NOT BE LIABLE FOR ANY OR ALL OF THE FOLLOWING REASONS:

1. Failure to follow all OEM recommendations for warranty coverage, including lubricants, maintenance and drain intervals, prior to the first installation of AMSOIL lubricants.

2. AMSOIL INC. was not notified within 30 days from the date of failure.

3. Claims information is insufficient.

4. Parts inspected do not substantiate a claim or indicate failure.

5. Parts requested were not sent or are unavailable for inspection.

6. Oil Sample was not provided.

7. Failure of the customer to follow the written procedure herein.

8. Customer refused to cooperate with the investigation

9. Failure was the result of an OEM defect.

This warranty shall be governed, interpreted and construed by, and in accordance with, the laws of the State of Wisconsin in the United States of America.

AMSOIL INC. IS THE SOLE AUTHOR OF THIS POLICY AND MAKES NO OTHER WARRANTIES, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INLESS A SEPERATE WARRANTY HAS BEEN WRITTEN.

SOME STATES DO NOT ALLOW EXCLUSION OR LIMITATION OR INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES, SO THE ABOVE LIMITATIONS OR EXCLUSIONS MAY NOT APPLY TO YOU. THIS WARRANTY GIVES YOU SPECIFIC LEGAL RIGHTS AND YOU MAY ALSO HAVE OTHER RIGHTS, WHICH VARY FROM STATE TO STATE.


This Amsoil Warranty does not protect the Amsoil Customer, this warranty protects AMSOIL INC.
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
Amsoil Limited Warranty - Lubricants
( for the 50 United States, the District of Columbia and Canada )

Amsoil INC. of Superior, Wisconsin hereby warrants that at the time of sale its lubricants are fit for use according to the written recommendations of Amsoil INC. and in applications for which one or more of the standards set forth in the product data bulletins and product labels are specified. Amsoil INC. further warrants its products to be free of defective materials, design and workmanship.



This Amsoil Warranty does not protect the Amsoil Customer, this warranty protects AMSOIL INC.
It protects the customer as stated in the above paragraph. Warranted for use in recommended longer extended oil change intervals than the competition. Several others only warranty for up to 4,000 miles/4 months and only cover 15 parts.

And "3) The liability of AMSOIL INC. shall be limited to:
a. Replacement of the defective lubricant.
b. The cost, including labor and materials, to repair damaged equipment, or at the option of AMSOIL INC., the cost to replace damaged equipment, resulting directly from the use of AMSOIL lubricants when used in the proper applications."

Pretty much covers everything, doesn't it? Much better than 15 parts the other guys warranty...
quote:
It protects the customer as stated in the above paragraph. Warranted for use in recommended longer extended oil change intervals than the competition. Several others only warranty for up to 4,000 miles/4 months and only cover 15 parts.


This Amsoil Warranty is a TOTAL JOKE, there are just too many ways Amsoil can get out of paying up, I had a LAWYER read this Amsoil Warranty and he even said all it does is protect AMSOIL INC.

I do not care about some other oil company having a 4 month / 4000 mile warranty, the TRUTH is no oil company is going to pay out on there WARRANTY.

Anyone reading this, please go back and read the Amsoil Warranty again and give me your thoughts, I find it interesting that the Amsoil Warranty is not printed on there website, you have to Download it, and of course when you down load it , you cannot copy it.

Tim, if you believe in this pathetic Warranty then wouldn't you have been the ONE to have posted it here 1st on Noria for us to read instead of me.

You make all these claims about Amsoil having a Warranty yet you never printed it out for us, if there is a problem that warranty is a NIGHTMARE for any Amsoil customer who has to go through that process, anyone reading this may not believe me, go read the AMSOIL WARRANTY again.
AMSOIL SHALL NOT BE LIABLE FOR ANY OR ALL OF THE FOLLOWING REASONS:

1. Failure to follow all OEM recommendations for warranty coverage, including lubricants, maintenance and drain intervals, prior to the first installation of AMSOIL lubricants.


Tim how does the owner of a preowned car prove this to Amsoil?

Amsoil has so many outs with this Warranty.
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
AMSOIL SHALL NOT BE LIABLE FOR ANY OR ALL OF THE FOLLOWING REASONS:

1. Failure to follow all OEM recommendations for warranty coverage, including lubricants, maintenance and drain intervals, prior to the first installation of AMSOIL lubricants.


Tim how does the owner of a preowned car prove this to Amsoil?

Amsoil has so many outs with this Warranty.


How about this Bear?

THE WARRANTY SHALL NOT BE EXTENDED TO COVER THE FOLLOWING:

1. Amsoil lubricants used in mechanically deficient equipment as a result of abnormal operation, negligence, abuse, damage from casualty, shipment or accident, or equipment modification using components other than those from AMSOIL or AMSOIL aftermarket partners

I guess the Doug Thorley headers I ordered and the Wolf Racing Cams would void the warranty or not be covered. Man, that is a big hole in coverage of the warranty? Hmm, my transmission fluid may not be covered, as I have a MicroGard filter. That clause basically states all OEM equipment is null and void. I don't think Nissan is an approved Amsoil Aftermarket Supplier.

Dave
quote:
Originally posted by Deltona_Dave:
That's why I am dumping the Ams. ATF this weekend and going back to Nissan Matic S. Amsoil seems to make the shifts sloppy, vs Nissan's smooth, hear the (engine rpm) shift, not feel it (jerk, bang).

Dave


I've read about Honda issues with the ATF, and was jumped on in another thread. Stick with the OEM fluid and be safe.

Interesting remarks about the filters, guess you got to buy the total package, better make sure the PCV valve is OEM too, and the plugs.

AD
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
quote:
Originally posted by Deltona_Dave:
That's why I am dumping the Ams. ATF this weekend and going back to Nissan Matic S. Amsoil seems to make the shifts sloppy, vs Nissan's smooth, hear the (engine rpm) shift, not feel it (jerk, bang).

Dave


I've read about Honda issues with the ATF, and was jumped on in another thread. Stick with the OEM fluid and be safe.

Interesting remarks about the filters, guess you got to buy the total package, better make sure the PCV valve is OEM too, and the plugs.

AD


Yep, OEM may be more expensive, but it has worked well before. It's going back in.
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:


Tim, if you believe in this pathetic Warranty then wouldn't you have been the ONE to have posted it here 1st on Noria for us to read instead of me.

You make all these claims about Amsoil having a Warranty yet you never printed it out for us, if there is a problem that warranty is a NIGHTMARE for any Amsoil customer who has to go through that process, anyone reading this may not believe me, go read the AMSOIL WARRANTY again.
The warranty is easily found on the AMSOIL website. The process is clear and easy. No nightmare. No complaints from any consumer or government agency. Works as advertised.

Now hunt around and check out the other motor oil warranties. Less coverage, more restrictions.
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
AMSOIL SHALL NOT BE LIABLE FOR ANY OR ALL OF THE FOLLOWING REASONS:

1. Failure to follow all OEM recommendations for warranty coverage, including lubricants, maintenance and drain intervals, prior to the first installation of AMSOIL lubricants.


Tim how does the owner of a preowned car prove this to Amsoil?

Amsoil has so many outs with this Warranty.
You can ask for them from the previous owner, you can have the dealer look up the service records for the car. You don't really buy a used car without asking for maintenance and repair records, do you?
quote:
4. AMSOIL lubricants that have been contaminated after leaving the AMSOIL INC> premises due to improper handling, storageor through equipment deficiencies, including filtration, in which an AMSOIL lubricant has been installed.


Amsoil sure has an out with this clause, you might have to go after UPS or FedEx, the problem here is that you have already opened the bottles and thrown them away.

I do not need to look at the other Oil Companies Warranties, I have enough confidence with the oil that I use so I am not even worried about there Warranty.
quote:
Originally posted by Deltona_Dave:

How about this Bear?

THE WARRANTY SHALL NOT BE EXTENDED TO COVER THE FOLLOWING:

1. Amsoil lubricants used in mechanically deficient equipment as a result of abnormal operation, negligence, abuse, damage from casualty, shipment or accident, or equipment modification using components other than those from AMSOIL or AMSOIL aftermarket partners

I guess the Doug Thorley headers I ordered and the Wolf Racing Cams would void the warranty or not be covered. Man, that is a big hole in coverage of the warranty? Hmm, my transmission fluid may not be covered, as I have a MicroGard filter. That clause basically states all OEM equipment is null and void. I don't think Nissan is an approved Amsoil Aftermarket Supplier.

Dave
AMSOIL has always said "Service Life
AMSOIL Signature Series 0W-30 Synthetic Motor Oil is recommended for extended drain intervals in unmodified(1), mechanically sound(2) gasoline fueled vehicles as follows:

• Normal Service(3) – Up to 35,000 miles or one year, whichever comes first.
• Severe Service(4) – Up to 17,500 miles or one year, whichever comes first.
• Replace AMSOIL Ea oil filter at the time of oil change up to 25,000 miles or one year, whichever comes first (other brands at standard OEM* intervals).
• In all non-gasoline fueled vehicle applications, extend the oil change interval according to oil analysis or follow the OEM* drain interval.

*OEM - Original Equipment Manufacturer

(1) Engines operating under modified conditions are excluded from extended drain recommendations. Examples include the use of performance computer chips; non-OEM approved exhaust, fuel or air induction systems; and the use of fuels other than those recommended for normal operation by the manufacturer.

(2) Mechanically sound engines are in good working condition and do not, for example, leak oil or consume excessive amounts, are not worn out, do not overheat, do not leak anti-freeze and have properly working emission control systems. AMSOIL recommends repairing malfunctioning engines prior to the installation of AMSOIL synthetic oils."

If you have warranty questions specific to modifications, you can call AMSOIL tech support to see if the warranty will cover you. No different than any other motor oil company warranty, except AMSOIL has the longest extended oil change interval warranty and covering more parts and labor.
quote:
If you have warranty questions specific to modifications, you can call AMSOIL tech support to see if the warranty will cover you. No different than any other motor oil company warranty, except AMSOIL has the longest extended oil change interval warranty and covering more parts and labor.


Tim, we do not care about other motor oil warranties, we do not need them compared to Amsoil's SHAMEFUL Warranty.

It would be nice if you wrote your own words instead of copying stuff out of Amsoil's SalesBook.

You could have just said, if you do not use an OEM Part then your warranty is not covered.

Here are some areas where you can get in trouble with the Amsoil Warranty:

1) Non- OEM Air Filter
2) Non- OEM Spark Plugs
3) Non- OEM PCV Valve
4) Non-OEM Exhaust

We do not need to call the Amsoil Tech Line, we already have there Warranty that if it were a CHEESE it would be Swiss Cheese since it has many holes in it.
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
AMSOIL SHALL NOT BE LIABLE FOR ANY OR ALL OF THE FOLLOWING REASONS:

1. Failure to follow all OEM recommendations for warranty coverage, including lubricants, maintenance and drain intervals, prior to the first installation of AMSOIL lubricants.


Tim how does the owner of a preowned car prove this to Amsoil?

Amsoil has so many outs with this Warranty.
You can ask for them from the previous owner, you can have the dealer look up the service records for the car. You don't really buy a used car without asking for maintenance and repair records, do you?


How many people % wise selling cars keep accurate records? Very few. How many used cars on lots bought at auction have a service history? Very few, give me a break. In the prefect world people keep detailed logs, maybe 1 in a 1000 as a guess. If they have records do they have actual register tapes for every repair going back 5 years, 8 years, if they did the work themselves? That 1 in a 1000 probably becomes 1 in 2000. Anyone can create a repair log in an Excel program, now is the info valid? That is another story, and something Amsoil can easily challenge. Lets get real Tim.
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
quote:
If you have warranty questions specific to modifications, you can call AMSOIL tech support to see if the warranty will cover you. No different than any other motor oil company warranty, except AMSOIL has the longest extended oil change interval warranty and covering more parts and labor.


It would be nice if you wrote your own words instead of copying stuff out of Amsoil's SalesBook.
Those were my own words. Not copied from AMSOIL's SalesBook, whatever that is.

quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear: You could have just said, if you do not use an OEM Part then your warranty is not covered.
Why would I say that? If the parts meet OEM specs and is not the cause, then there is no problem. If the part caused the problem, it would be the parts company's concern.

quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear: Here are some areas where you can get in trouble with the Amsoil Warranty:

1) Non- OEM Air Filter
2) Non- OEM Spark Plugs
3) Non- OEM PCV Valve
4) Non-OEM Exhaust

Not really, unless the part does not meet the OEM specifications and caused the problem.


We do not need to call the Amsoil Tech Line, we already have there Warranty that if it were a CHEESE it would be Swiss Cheese since it has many holes in it.
If it had that many holes in it, then the competitors, consumer and government agencies would have put AMSOIL out of business a long time ago. So far, I don't see where a single complaint has been registered. If it were CHEESE, it would be the best AMERICAN CHEESE on the market today.
quote:
If it had that many holes in it, then the competitors, consumer and government agencies would have put AMSOIL out of business a long time ago. So far, I don't see where a single complaint has been registered. If it were CHEESE, it would be the best AMERICAN CHEESE on the market today.


I am not buying anything you have said here, the reason nobody has tried to put Amsoil out of business is because they do not sell much oil, you can prove me wrong by showing us some real data on Amsoil's sales figures as opposed to your line of Amsoil doubling in sales every year.

Why don't you get one of the guys up at Amsoil Corporate to drop by here, we are still waiting for the guy that went over 900,000 miles using Amsoil Motor Oil to sho up and answer our questions.

Why can't we find Amsoil's sales figures on the Net but we can find Mobil's, what is Big Al hiding from us.
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
AMSOIL SHALL NOT BE LIABLE FOR ANY OR ALL OF THE FOLLOWING REASONS:

1. Failure to follow all OEM recommendations for warranty coverage, including lubricants, maintenance and drain intervals, prior to the first installation of AMSOIL lubricants.


Tim how does the owner of a preowned car prove this to Amsoil?

Amsoil has so many outs with this Warranty.
You can ask for them from the previous owner, you can have the dealer look up the service records for the car. You don't really buy a used car without asking for maintenance and repair records, do you?


How many people % wise selling cars keep accurate records?
I don't know. I always do.
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear: How many used cars on lots bought at auction have a service history?
I don't know. I would never buy a used car without service records.
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
AMSOIL SHALL NOT BE LIABLE FOR ANY OR ALL OF THE FOLLOWING REASONS:

1. Failure to follow all OEM recommendations for warranty coverage, including lubricants, maintenance and drain intervals, prior to the first installation of AMSOIL lubricants.


Tim how does the owner of a preowned car prove this to Amsoil?

Amsoil has so many outs with this Warranty.
You can ask for them from the previous owner, you can have the dealer look up the service records for the car. You don't really buy a used car without asking for maintenance and repair records, do you?


How many people % wise selling cars keep accurate records?
I don't know. I always do.
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear: How many used cars on lots bought at auction have a service history?
I don't know. I would never buy a used car without service records.


Your answer is " I don't know " is that because the ANSWER was not in your magic Amsoil Sales Book.

I bought a used car back in 1985 with no service records and I am still driving it today.
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
quote:
If it had that many holes in it, then the competitors, consumer and government agencies would have put AMSOIL out of business a long time ago. So far, I don't see where a single complaint has been registered. If it were CHEESE, it would be the best AMERICAN CHEESE on the market today.


I am not buying anything you have said here, the reason nobody has tried to put Amsoil out of business is because they do not sell much oil, you can prove me wrong by showing us some real data on Amsoil's sales figures as opposed to your line of Amsoil doubling in sales every year.
Pennzoil tried to put AMSOIL out of business in the 70's because of the letter "Z" in the original AMZOIL spelling. I guess they couldn't come up with anything else. Castrol tried to put much smaller Royal Purple out of business due to false advertising. I'm sure big oil would like to put AMSOIL out of business, but they can't.

Where did I say AMSOIL's sales is doubling every year?

quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear: Why can't we find Amsoil's sales figures on the Net but we can find Mobil's, what is Big Al hiding from us.
Mobil has to make public disclosure since they are a publicly traded stock and have to report and pay their stockholders. AMSOIL is the worlds largest privately owned synthetic oil company, and as such, they may not be required to do so.

However, Motor Oil sales figures are available from NOLN . Here are some:
http://www.amsoil.com/news/200..._fastlube_market.pdf .
https://www.amsoil.com/dealer/...news/actionnews.aspx See page 10.

AMSOIL started with 1 dealer. Now they have 50,000 to 70,000.
AMSOIL started blending,packaging and warehousing in a 400 square foot garage. Now they blend and package in 9 acres under one roof. You can learn more at https://www.amsoil.com/lit/g2593.pdf . And have 13 other warehouses. And distribute in 26 countries.
They have registered over 1.9 million accounts.

quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear: Why don't you get one of the guys up at Amsoil Corporate to drop by here, we are still waiting for the guy that went over 900,000 miles using Amsoil Motor Oil to sho up and answer our questions.
Feel free to invite them. AMSOIL Corporate may be too busy due to record sales with the rest of the industry down 20% last year. The delivery van driver might be busy driving that same van.
Last edited by timvipond
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:

Why can't we find Amsoil's sales figures on the Net but we can find Mobil's, what is Big Al hiding from us.


To be fair, until Amsoil offers stock to the public, thus having to file with the SEC, you won't.

And, to continue along that line, Tim should not be claiming the company doubling in sales year after year unless he can prove it.
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
quote:
Feel free to invite them. AMSOIL Corporate may be too busy due to record sales with the rest of the industry down 20% last year. The delivery van driver might be busy driving that same van.


4% Market Share, that does not impress me.



How about Havoline's 2%, or Quaker States 4%, or Castrol's 7%?
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:

Why can't we find Amsoil's sales figures on the Net but we can find Mobil's, what is Big Al hiding from us.


To be fair, until Amsoil offers stock to the public, thus having to file with the SEC, you won't.

And, to continue along that line, Tim should not be claiming the company doubling in sales year after year unless he can prove it.
I never made that claim.
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:

Why can't we find Amsoil's sales figures on the Net but we can find Mobil's, what is Big Al hiding from us.


To be fair, until Amsoil offers stock to the public, thus having to file with the SEC, you won't.

And, to continue along that line, Tim should not be claiming the company doubling in sales year after year unless he can prove it.
I never made that claim.


Oops. Sorry. Raw egg on my face.
Shell has owned the Pennzoil and QuakerState brands for around 10 years now in an attempt to increase market share. All 3 of their brands are down in market share since then. AMSOIL has record sales this year. The motor oil market overall is down 20% this year. AMSOIL has doubled in sales in the past 4 years. Looks like motorists are leaving the other brands more and using AMSOIL.

If you don't want to look at AMSOIL data, then I suggest not looking at it. As a retired Shell Oil scientist, I find test data very important. I think others do as well. The motor oil industry as a whole was down 20% last year, yet AMSOIL had record sales, so they must be doing something right. I read all the time about other motor oil companies laying off employees, raising prices, refineries shutting down, selling off product lines, leaving markets, etc., but AMSOIL is growing by leaps and bounds. If I could find undisputed independent test data showing other products superior to AMSOIL with a better warranty and history, then I would sell those.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Tim Vipond, Thu June 03 2010 03:15 PM

Tim Vipond
Level 4 - 251 to 500 posts

Posted Sun June 06 2010 07:05 AM Hide Post
Again, no problems reported other than a small number of vehicles had a light come in a few extreme cases. No damage has been reported. If damage occurs due to the filters, AMSOIL pays for repairs.

Here is some data comparing AMSOIL's market share to the competitors:
"The 2009 Fast Lube Operators Survey shows AMSOIL is
among the top-selling synthetic motor oils in the fast lube
business. In fact, 4 percent of operators listed AMSOIL as
their best-selling synthetic motor oil. The AMSOIL percent-
ages were 2 percent in 2007 and 3 percent in 2008, indicat-
ing the demand for AMSOIL synthetic motor oil has doubled
in only two years."

A bit more than a flea as you stated, don't you agree?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Tim Vipond, Sun June 06 2010 12:57 PM


Tim, do you have any proof of what you are saying with these sales increases or is the info proprietary, I just don't get why you are pointing out these sales figures, if I found out that Pennzoil Platinum doubled in sales I would really not care, I use the oil because I like it, sales figures mean nothing to me.

This Fast Lube Operators Survey sounds like a Bogus Survey to me, pure Amscam Marketing, maybe I will go to Jiffy Lube and ask them to put in Amsoil Motor Oil, I am sure its on the shelf next to Redline Motor Oil and on the shelf above there is Synlube and Mobil 1

I will bet that the bottom shelf will contain Royal Purple and RLI Biosyn.
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:

Tim, do you have any proof of what you are saying with these sales increases or is the info proprietary, I just don't get why you are pointing out these sales figures, if I found out that Pennzoil Platinum doubled in sales I would really not care, I use the oil because I like it, sales figures mean nothing to me.
Some of the data came from NOLN (National Oil and Lube News), some from Lube Report, Lubes 'n Greases, and some from AMSOIL. I pointed it out when some asserted that AMSOIL's sales are only a "flea on an elephants arse", or that their competition sells more in a day than AMSOIL does in a year, or that AMSOIL isn't on anybody's radar, etc.

quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear: This Fast Lube Operators Survey sounds like a Bogus Survey to me, pure Amscam Marketing,
that data came from NOLN.
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear: maybe I will go to Jiffy Lube and ask them to put in Amsoil Motor Oil, I am sure its on the shelf next to Redline Motor Oil and on the shelf above there is Synlube and Mobil 1

I will bet that the bottom shelf will contain Royal Purple and RLI Biosyn.
I've never seen Redline, Synlube or RLI Biosyn at a Jiffy Lube, but have seen AMSOIL, Royal Purple and Mobil 1 there. Not bad considering Jiffy Lube is owned by Shell Oil, and are contractually obligated to sell a high percentage (80 or 90%) of Pennzoil/QuakerState/Rotella products.
quote:
Some of the data came from NOLN (National Oil and Lube News), some from Lube Report, Lubes 'n Greases, and some from AMSOIL.


Tim, if you want to quote numbers you really need to give us some real concrete proof, doesn't Amsoil print out there sales figures every year, something like:

2009= $100,000,000
2008= $75,000,000
2007= $50,000,000

This motor oil sales for your competitors that you state is down 20% really means nothing to me.

Exxon/Mobil Sales could be up 90% next year and Pennzoil's or shall we say Shell's oil sales could be down 90%, I do not follow the Herd Mentality, I will continue using Pennzoil Platinum.
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
quote:
Some of the data came from NOLN (National Oil and Lube News), some from Lube Report, Lubes 'n Greases, and some from AMSOIL.


Tim, if you want to quote numbers you really need to give us some real concrete proof, doesn't Amsoil print out there sales figures every year, something like:

2009= $100,000,000
2008= $75,000,000
2007= $50,000,000

I've never seen anything like that before from AMSOIL. I don't know of any family owned private business that does. Only market shares from trade magazines, such as the ones from NOLAN that I've shared.
quote:
I've never seen anything like that before from AMSOIL. I don't know of any family owned private business that does. Only market shares from trade magazines, such as the ones from NOLAN that I've shared.


The Magazine stuff is not going to cut it, I believe you said Amsoil doubled there sales in 4 years, doubled from what number.

I would think that Amsoil Salesman would be interested in what the company is selling every year, or how much the company is making.

Lets say Exxon/ Mobil sold $300,000,000 last year and the year before it sold $270,000,000 worth of product, it would be nice for you guys, meaning the Amsoil Salesman too see how Amsoil is doing each year.

Market shares just seem misleading too me, you did show a graph where Mobil had like 58% market share and Amsoil had 4% market share, I am looking for what it means in dollars and cents.
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:


Market shares just seem misleading too me, you did show a graph where Mobil had like 58% market share and Amsoil had 4% market share, I am looking for what it means in dollars and cents.



Bear...........Why would you even care about that info unless you were planning on buying the company,or loaning them money. Are you an investment banker,or a venture capitalist. Thinking about an IPO? What gives?
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:


Market shares just seem misleading too me, you did show a graph where Mobil had like 58% market share and Amsoil had 4% market share, I am looking for what it means in dollars and cents.



Bear...........Why would you even care about that info unless you were planning on buying the company,or loaning them money. Are you an investment banker,or a venture capitalist. Thinking about an IPO? What gives?
Maybe he wants to be a rich AMSOIL Dealer like his neighbor with the huge estate?
I just wanted to throw out a scenario since I believe you worked for Ford.

Lets say I buy a 2010 Ford Mustang and decide to go with Amsoil 0W-20 for one year or 25,000 miles.

At 20,000 miles a lubricated part goes bad, I go to Ford, and since I did not follow the manufactures OCI's they deny my warranty.

I call up Amsoil, send them an oil sample, they say its fine, so they will not be paying.

Could Ford and Amsoil be fighting it out for maybe a year or a couple of years, especially since it could cost thousands of dollars to fix the car.

I got a vague answer from Gary, like the process may take a little while.

I have my doubts that Amsoil would be spending money on lawyers to fight Ford.

Gary or Pablo would just give me the Amsoil Company Line.

I just do not see something like this getting resolved quickly and I would think Ford would stall in trying to pay up.


Your scenario is certainly a possibility.

Conceptually, a lot of this comes down the M/M Warranty Act. You can Google it to read it for yourself.

Basically, an OEM is responsible for warranty as long as you follow the provisions of the warranty. Any failure that would occur during that time, while using approved/licesned products, would place the burden of proof upon the OEM to show that they were not at fault.

But if you venture outside the OEM warranty provisions, then the burden of proof falls upon you and/or the aftermarket manufuacturer. Here is where things can become mired down in time/money/etc.

If an aftermarket manufacturer makes the product to the specs of the OEM, it will be easy for the aftermarket manufacturer to prove their worth. And example would be filter or lube makers that comply with industry standards and/or seek OEM license. Fram, Wix, Purolator all design filters to meet OEM criteria; any lube related failure would be view from either a component or product angle. Did the filter fail due to a defect in manufacture? Then the filter maker would pay. Did the failure come from a design issue? Then the OEM would be at fault, because the aftermarket made a product to OEM spec.

But then you venture further outside of "normal" and get to unlicesned, non-approved products like Amsoil. They have their own testing, and very few of their products are API licensed (only the XL lubes as I recall - which few people use). They also don't seek out the OEM license. They rely on thier own testing as proof of performance. Here is where the OEM (Ford, GM, etc) can throw the burden of proof onto the aftermarket, legally.

So in your scenario, it's possible that a long drawn-out battle may ensue. Depending upon the exact type of failure, and type products used, it might place Ford into a postion where they are comfortable denying warranty until Amsoil could PROVE in court (or arbitration) that the oil (and the OCI) was not at fault.

Amsoil's own warranty is very well written. Ironically, the very M/M Act they claim to provide leverage against Ford, is the very same one they use to provide leverage against you. Ever read the whole Amsoil warranty? They have just as many "don't do this; must do that" provisions as well. Ultimately, if the Amsoil fluid is found to be at fault, and they balked (which I don't think they would) then you'd have to turn around and take legal action against them.

All this while your ride sits and depreceiates, unusable, awaiting repair. You make payments on a vehicle you cannot even use ...

On the other hand, I can see the need for limited warranties. People often think that they know "better" then the OEMs. They try to out-do the OEM by re-engineering a product that typically has thousands of man-hours and million of dollars in development. Occasionally, an OEM can get it wrong. But that is not typically the case. Plus, the OEM has mounds of cash and huge resources as proof as to why they made decisions. What would you have?

Let me give an exmample that seems extreme, but play right into the M/M Act guidelines. I'm being overtly endulgent here, making stuff up, but you'll get the point.

Say Joe Schmoe decided that he knows "better" than the OEM, and decided that since "thicker is better" when it comes to lubes, he decides to run gear oil in his engine. After all, a mass-market 90 grade GL-5 isn't that far off from a 40 grade or 50 grade engine oil. It works for a while, but eventually something fails in his engine (perhaps he's done this in a turbodiesel truck?). So out come the "experts". His Ford turbo failed. Ford takes an oil sample as wonders what is in the crankcase?
"Mobil 1 75w-90" is Joe's reply.
Ford: "Your warranty is denied."
Joe: "You can't do that; the M/M act says so." (Joe is wrong here).
Ford: "see if Mobil will cover it."
Mobil: "no way in Hades; that is an unapproved use of our fluids, and not according to OEM specs, and we have our own written warranty that you ignored, Joe".
Joe: "but oil is oil, and thicker is better!"
Ford and Mobil (together): "oh yeah? Prove it. See you in court."

Had Joe used a spec'd/licensed engine fluid, Ford would legally be in a position to prove that their own spec's were not at fault; kind of hard to do or admit when you're the one that made them. So Ford would pay. Or, if Ford felt the oil was properly spec'd, but made wrong (a bad batch of HDEO oil) then they might push the issue to Mobil, which then would review it's production data and make a decision. But when Joes uses gear oil in a place where both the OEM and aftermarket say "use this; not that" then JOE is the one with the burden of proof.

See, just because someone thinks they know better, it is COMPLETELY about burden of proof. Ford and Amsoil have all the time in the world, and both of them have more cash than you. Ultimately, one of them would likely pay because (I presume) you would use an Amsoil engine oil in the engine, so at least you followed one recommendation.

Now, I understand you're not going to use GL-5 in your engine, but the point I'm making is that M/M is about the burden of proof, and where it can be pushed. If you have a engine failure using Amsoil, the first question is "was it mechanical"? Oil will not make an engine throw a rod, but it might make a rod spin a bearing ...

And so begins the finger pointing.

I am NOT against Amsoil, or any other aftermarket product. But I always weigh my options and take a path that makes the best reward for the least cost. To me, it makes sense to use licensed/approved products during a warranty period. Past that point, the world is open to you. For example, my Duramax engine requires an OCI at least annually; I change oil once a year even though I only drive about 6k miles in the truck. I know for a fact that HDEO can go longer and further, but I'm not willing to risk a $8,000 engine to save some money. I'm not willing to over-extend my OCI without good UOA proof to back me up.

I don't think Gary or Pablo are leading you astray, but they will not be the ones in the legal battle with you (or against you). It will be corporate Ford and corporate Amsoil. Sales teams shy away from stuff when they know the lawyers might come out to play, and I cannont blame them.


It's your decision. Hope that helps.

Tim, this guy works for Ford, guess after reading this I will say no to Extended Drains with Amsoil during the Warranty Period when I get my new car.
Nice example Bear. Although you used Gear oil for your example, we could easily substitute 0W30 in an engine that calls for 5W20, with no other options. I get the point. It would be a long drawn out uphill battle.

Stick to approved fluids, and mfg recommended intervals, in the suggested grade, and don't play games while under a warranty. Sound advice, and exactly what the service writer told us when we had my GF's Jeep in for a warranty issue. He flat out said, DON'T USE A 30 GRADE OIL IN THIS JEEP! IF THERE IS AN OIL PROBLEM WE WILL PULL A SAMPLE, AND THAT 30 GRADE WILL BITE YOU IN THE BUTT! IT CALLS FOR 5W20, USE 5W20!

NUFF SAID,
AD
Do what you want. Hypothesize all you want. But you haven't proven a thing. You have yet to show a real life drawn out court battle over AMSOIL. I know of no cases where anyone had a warranty problem using extended oil changes with an AMSOIL recommended fluid for 38 years, millions of vehicles, billions of miles. The proof is in the pudding (and the oil).

And of course, if any oil fails, even while following the vehicle manufacturers guidelines, then your "scenario" would still apply. Vehicle manufacture warranties only cover defective parts, not defective oil. So it is best to pick an oil with the best warranty. Some are only for 4,000 miles/4 months and cover only 15 parts. Some oils don't seem to offer any written warranty. Your choice...
Last edited by timvipond
Quote:
Do what you want.


We all Will.

Quote:
But you haven't proven a thing.


Neither have you.

Quote:
You have yet to show a real life drawn out court battle over AMSOIL


The records are sealed.

Quote:
I know of no cases where anyone had a warranty problem using extended oil changes with an AMSOIL recommended fluid for 38 years


Your just not telling us.

Quote:
millions of vehicles


Can you prove that with DOCUMENTATION, sure sounds like a Sales Pitch.

Quote:
The proof is in the pudding (and the oil).


Amsoil sure turns into PUDDING after 17,000 miles.

Quote:
So it is best to pick an oil with the best warranty


I already read Amsoil's Warranty, and its worthless, I could care less about Pennzoil's Warranty since the oil is fine for me.

Quote:
Some oils don't seem to offer any written warranty. Your choice...


My uncle has a 1979 Pontiac with 220,000 miles that he has done yearly OCI's on the cheapest oil he can get his hands on, so he has done fine with his cheap oil that I would guess has absolutely no kind of WARRANTY.
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:

The records are sealed.

Prove it.

quote:
Originally posted by Big Bear:

Amsoil sure turns into PUDDING after 17,000 miles.

Proof? Alchemy?


Your the Amsoil Salesman, you PROVE me WRONG.
Your statements. Provide the proof to back them up. I can't prove something that didn't happen.
can Amsoil ASL 5w30 really stand 25000 miles?
DSteven Offline


Registered: 04/09/04
Posts: 295
Loc: Minnesota-South Dakota
A few years ago in my area, an amsoil dealer did 25000-30000 mile oci's on his taurus. It started running badly, so he brought it in to the dealer with around 92000 miles. Apparently, the cam had been ground down. It was a 92 taurus with a 3.8L v6. From that experience, I would not really recommend running the oil that long. Maybe, if it got new filters and a fresh quart every 3-4K. It is an awesome oil, from what I hear, huh, but any oil for 25000 or 30000...maybe not such a good idea.


: can Amsoil ASL 5w30 really stand 25000 miles?
DSteven Offline


Registered: 04/09/04
Posts: 295
Loc: Minnesota-South Dakota
TomJones76-
The individual that ran that amount in his Taurus was an amsoil dealer. I talked to Frank, the mechanic that repaired that car, which he remembers well, and he said the man followed the instructions and just didn't ahve good luck. He said he was proving his oil point with his Taurus. Unfortuneately, it didn't go well. I did see a car with 202,000 on its clock that had a diet of Amsoil 10-30 since 28000 miles. The individual used Wix oil filters, changing them every 3-4K with a fresh top off quart and ran the oil 12-15K, changing the air filter every 5K. The engine was very clean and ran great! That was a good testimony to Amsoil. It is a good oil, exceptional in fact...but 25,000 miles?...maybe not such a good idea. Tom, I just couldn't recommend, in good conscience at least, driving 25000 miles on any oil. Yes, maybe it will be somewhat adequate under the most ideal conditions...but for a 25000 mile run of miles, what vehicle sees all 25000 miles as idea? I have to quench when trying to get 10000 out of Mobil-1 and changing the filter at 5K. I think of all the different temps (-30'-100'F), short trips, idle time, etc that goes on during that time...and remembering the STS's oil life indicator only went 1400 miles one cold winter before wanting an oil change. All that factored, it just makes 25000 seem very high for a recommendation. That is all. No controversy, just writing from experience.
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
Nice example Bear. Although you used Gear oil for your example, we could easily substitute 0W30 in an engine that calls for 5W20, with no other options. I get the point. It would be a long drawn out uphill battle.

Stick to approved fluids, and mfg recommended intervals, in the suggested grade, and don't play games while under a warranty. Sound advice, and exactly what the service writer told us when we had my GF's Jeep in for a warranty issue. He flat out said, DON'T USE A 30 GRADE OIL IN THIS JEEP! IF THERE IS AN OIL PROBLEM WE WILL PULL A SAMPLE, AND THAT 30 GRADE WILL BITE YOU IN THE BUTT! IT CALLS FOR 5W20, USE 5W20!

NUFF SAID,
AD



Yeh......that worked at real well for some. Play it safe,really,are you sure?

For those of you who think you are safe doing 3000 mile oil changes with receipts,think again.....

http://www.google.com/imgres?i...a:en-US%3Cimg%20src=


quote:
<<<<<Manufacturer warranties might refuse to cover oil sludge damage by blaming you, the customer, for poor maintenance habits or neglect—even if you can prove you changed the oil every 3,000 miles. Without warranty protection, engine replacements are $5,000-$10,000. SAAB, Toyota, VW, and a few other manufacturers have some limited coverage for sludge damage.>>>>>



In sum..........playing it safe as some have said,may not be.....playing it smart!

The smart move is to use group IV synthetic,don't get sludge in the first place,and you won't have to worry about warranty issues......because you probably won't have any issues to deal with.
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
Nice example Bear. Although you used Gear oil for your example, we could easily substitute 0W30 in an engine that calls for 5W20, with no other options. I get the point. It would be a long drawn out uphill battle.

Stick to approved fluids, and mfg recommended intervals, in the suggested grade, and don't play games while under a warranty. Sound advice, and exactly what the service writer told us when we had my GF's Jeep in for a warranty issue. He flat out said, DON'T USE A 30 GRADE OIL IN THIS JEEP! IF THERE IS AN OIL PROBLEM WE WILL PULL A SAMPLE, AND THAT 30 GRADE WILL BITE YOU IN THE BUTT! IT CALLS FOR 5W20, USE 5W20!

NUFF SAID,
AD



Yeh......that worked at real well for some. Play it safe,really,are you sure?

For those of you who think you are safe doing 3000 mile oil changes with receipts,think again.....

http://www.google.com/imgres?i...a:en-US%3Cimg%20src=


quote:
<<<<<Manufacturer warranties might refuse to cover oil sludge damage by blaming you, the customer, for poor maintenance habits or neglect—even if you can prove you changed the oil every 3,000 miles. Without warranty protection, engine replacements are $5,000-$10,000. SAAB, Toyota, VW, and a few other manufacturers have some limited coverage for sludge damage.>>>>>



In sum..........playing it safe as some have said,may not be.....playing it smart!

The smart move is to use group IV synthetic,don't get sludge in the first place,and you won't have to worry about warranty issues......because you probably won't have any issues to deal with.


Point well taken Kirk, but if you use a mfg approved oil, and follow the intervals you'll be fine. That is unless there is a design flaw with the engine, in which case that would be a mfg issue they'd have to make good one. Just be able to show proof you've maintained the car as they outlined, using an approved oil and filter.

Even Amsoil had sludge issues in certain vehicles and suggests you follow mfg OCI's. These were design flaws and not the fault of the oil. I don't want to get the Amsoil boys all fired up again!
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
Nice example Bear. Although you used Gear oil for your example, we could easily substitute 0W30 in an engine that calls for 5W20, with no other options. I get the point. It would be a long drawn out uphill battle.

Stick to approved fluids, and mfg recommended intervals, in the suggested grade, and don't play games while under a warranty. Sound advice, and exactly what the service writer told us when we had my GF's Jeep in for a warranty issue. He flat out said, DON'T USE A 30 GRADE OIL IN THIS JEEP! IF THERE IS AN OIL PROBLEM WE WILL PULL A SAMPLE, AND THAT 30 GRADE WILL BITE YOU IN THE BUTT! IT CALLS FOR 5W20, USE 5W20!

NUFF SAID,
AD



Yeh......that worked at real well for some. Play it safe,really,are you sure?

For those of you who think you are safe doing 3000 mile oil changes with receipts,think again.....

http://www.google.com/imgres?i...a:en-US%3Cimg%20src=


quote:
<<<<<Manufacturer warranties might refuse to cover oil sludge damage by blaming you, the customer, for poor maintenance habits or neglect—even if you can prove you changed the oil every 3,000 miles. Without warranty protection, engine replacements are $5,000-$10,000. SAAB, Toyota, VW, and a few other manufacturers have some limited coverage for sludge damage.>>>>>



In sum..........playing it safe as some have said,may not be.....playing it smart!

The smart move is to use group IV synthetic,don't get sludge in the first place,and you won't have to worry about warranty issues......because you probably won't have any issues to deal with.


Point well taken Kirk, but if you use a mfg approved oil, and follow the intervals you'll be fine. That is unless there is a design flaw with the engine, in which case that would be a mfg issue they'd have to make good one. Just be able to show proof you've maintained the car as they outlined, using an approved oil and filter.

Even Amsoil had sludge issues in certain vehicles and suggests you follow mfg OCI's. These were design flaws and not the fault of the oil. I don't want to get the Amsoil boys all fired up again!


And once again, kirk posts a link that lists sludge prone engines....... engines are such due to design flaws.

You'll notice that not only does it say nothing about Grp IV oils, but asks and answers why all cars don't suffer from it. Notice the lack of the phrase Grp IV oil.....

But notice that A: They list certain years. B: The sentence "some manufacturers more than others due to various design differences.

C: Avoid buying car models that have very unusual oil sludge problems.
Change the oil every 3,000 miles.
On any vehicle, if you can't afford synthetic oil, check your owner's manual and insist on the correct weight of quality oil.
Buy high-quality oil filters on sale and bring them to your oil change.
You can change the PCV valve yourself, or have it changed with the 30,000-mile coolant service. But remember, coolant is best changed by a technician so they can dispose of the fluid properly.
Keep receipts for all your maintenance, even self-maintenance.

In other words, don't be a stupid owner. Notice the words "the correct weight of quality oil", another strike against "synlube".

Not to mention that he used this link before, and had it ripped apart before
Last edited by trajan
Why should I trust the warranty of a company that doesn't have mfg approvals because they're too cheap/worried to test it over the mfg warranty of the ones who make the car?

Why should I even use an oil that claims to be OK for, oh say, a M54 engine, when I can use an oil that I *know* works with said engine.

And avoid any cat fights between the oil maker and the engine maker?

All ready had a troll on BITOG claim that using dino oil in said engine would work. Was so sure that it would that instead of putting his money where his mouth is, he looked for volunteers.

Just like the trolls here............

Find that A3/B3 dino oil yet Mr Trol......er Kirk? You remember? You asked a stupid, trollish question as to why I don't use it? And I had to educate you on 1998+ bimmers? Not "beamers".
Last edited by trajan
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:

For those of you who think you are safe doing 3000 mile oil changes with receipts,think again.....

http://www.google.com/imgres?i...a:en-US%3Cimg%20src=


quote:
<<<<<Manufacturer warranties might refuse to cover oil sludge damage by blaming you, the customer, for poor maintenance habits or neglect—even if you can prove you changed the oil every 3,000 miles. Without warranty protection, engine replacements are $5,000-$10,000. SAAB, Toyota, VW, and a few other manufacturers have some limited coverage for sludge damage.>>>>>



In sum..........playing it safe as some have said,may not be.....playing it smart!

The smart move is to use group IV synthetic,don't get sludge in the first place,and you won't have to worry about warranty issues......because you probably won't have any issues to deal with.



And once again, kirk posts a link that lists sludge prone engines....... engines are such due to design flaws.


But notice that A: They list certain years. B: The sentence "some manufacturers more than others due to various design differences.

C: Avoid buying car models that have very unusual oil sludge problems.
Change the oil every 3,000 miles.
On any vehicle, if you can't afford synthetic oil, check your owner's manual and insist on the correct weight of quality oil.
Buy high-quality oil filters on sale and bring them to your oil change.
You can change the PCV valve yourself, or have it changed with the 30,000-mile coolant service. But remember, coolant is best changed by a technician so they can dispose of the fluid properly.
Keep receipts for all your maintenance, even self-maintenance.

In other words, don't be a stupid owner. Notice the words "the correct weight of quality oil", another strike against "synlube".

Not to mention that he used this link before, and had it ripped apart before[/QUOTE]

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________

Ripped Apart you say? Do you have a problem with the facts,tajan?

Rip all you want,trajan...doesn't change the facts...doesn't change history...doesn't change the truth!!

Trajan must be able to see the future when he buys a car to know it won't be sludge prone.

All engines today are sludge prone,some much worse than others. It takes years to discover which cars are the sludge monsters,Trajan.

In sum,I am 'ripping' your advice apart trajan,and well deserved at that!

Let's review Trajan's Idiotic Advice!


1. Buy a car not prone to sludge = Bad advice,impossible to know the future of any make,model,unless you buy used.

2. Change oil every 3,000 miles=Bad,antiquated,expensive,wasteful,advice.

3. Change PCV valve yourself = Not all models even have one now days. You also failed to mention to only use OEM valve if changed,and never use aftermarket valve. You could void the warranty with trajans advice.

4. Don't be a stupid owner = Bad advice.Need to define what stupid owner means. Most Americans only know where the key goes to start the car,and therefore are,"stupid",at least mechanically. That will never change,only worsen.

5. Change coolant every 30,000 miles = Trajan is living in the seventies,and is clueless.

6. Use the correct weight of oil = Vague advice, as weights are generally only recommendations,not mandates as per the manual.



In sum.........what the heck is Trajan talking about..........AGAIN....


Question..........who is actually listening to Trajan..........NOT ME!
Last edited by captainkirk
quote:
Market shares just seem misleading too me, you did show a graph where Mobil had like 58% market share and Amsoil had 4% market share, I am looking for what it means in dollars and cents.


You have to remember that the "Market Share" of Synthetic Motor oil is now in 2% range that is from almost 250,000,000 Light duty vehicles less than 5 million use "synthetic oils"

From the Mobil 1 volume sales that would if true mean that Mobil 1 users only change their oil every 30 months, which is not likely, so again the BIG OIL as well as "small oil" like to misrepresent the fact, or basically lie about their sales.

While it is easy to hide the details in annual reports for ExxonMobil.

AMSOIL does not issue any public disclosure so anything goes and does not need to have any truth in it just like their trademarked slogan (basically also a lie or at a minimum a deception) "First in Synthetics"....

Since almost all "synthetic" oils sold in USA are API Group 3 based with only occasional blend in of PAO even the "synthetic term is greatly depreciated"

When high quality PAO sells for $8.00 or more per pound and Mobil 1 in store sells for under $8.00 and weights just under 2 pounds, just figure how much virgin PAO is really in it !!!

If you were a jeweler and going price for ounce of GOLD is $1,000 would you "retail" a finished ring that has net weight of 2 ouces for $1,000 ?

Only if the filling of the ring is really silver or copper, then you can do so at a profit !

Do you really think that ExxonMobil is loosing over $8.00 on every pound of PAO they produce after they put it into Mobil 1 bottle, or is it more reasonable to think that MOST of the stuff in the bottle is NOT synthetic oil at all, they just happen to call it that....

This should be rather obvious to anyone who is willing to "think" outside (or rather inside) the bottle - and oh yes the "special custom made bottle is not FREE either, it may actually cost as much as $1.00 to $1.20 to produce and "label".

SO think of what you are really paying for, and that does not even include the $45 million annual NASCAR sponsorships and "branding".

At least they no longer pay for GOLF to promote Motor Oil, they must be getting smarter in their marketing effort !!!
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:


3. Change PCV valve yourself = Not all models even have one now days. You also failed to mention to only use OEM valve if changed,and never use aftermarket valve. You could void the warranty with trajans advice.


Question..........who is actually listening to Trajan..........NOT ME!


I think Trajan gave some good advise. I only used OEM PCV valves, they never gave me problems. My dad told me aftermarket can cause oil use, they did for him, changing back to OEM easily fixed it. I'll take his word.

What I find interesting is this remark:

"You also failed to mention to only use OEM valve if changed,and never use aftermarket valve. You could void the warranty with trajans advice."

Using the wrong oil in the wrong grade, not meeting mfg specs, with the API starbusrt, for longer than the mfg suggests can too. Yet some of us seem to have missed that point.

AD

Interesting comments Miro, I like this one: Smile When you come down to it marketing is a game played with words.

"AMSOIL does not issue any public disclosure so anything goes and does not need to have any truth in it just like their trademarked slogan (basically also a lie or at a minimum a deception) "First in Synthetics"...."
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
You could void the warranty with trajans advice."

Using the wrong oil in the wrong grade, not meeting mfg specs, with the API starbusrt, for longer than the mfg suggests can too. Yet some of us seem to have missed that point.
Of course, vehicle warranty coverage only covers manufacturing defects. It is not dependent on the oil used, or how long it was used, or having the voluntary API starburst, unless that oil was proven by the manufacturer to cause failure. And that AMSOIL has never voided a vehicle manufacturers warranty in 38 years. Some of you seem to have missed that point.



quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:Interesting comments Miro, I like this one: Smile When you come down to it marketing is a game played with words.

"AMSOIL does not issue any public disclosure so anything goes and does not need to have any truth in it just like their trademarked slogan (basically also a lie or at a minimum a deception) "First in Synthetics"...."
Of course the United States Patent and Trademark Office approved AMSOIL's trademark "The First in Synthetics", when AMSOIL proved they were the first 100% synthetic oil to meet all API requirements. AMSOIL also submitted volumes of test data showing their oil was the best on the market, and the US Patent and Trademark Office asked for the other oil companies to prove AMSOIL wrong, which they didn't. And of course the trademark has been reviewed and renewed since then. And if you have any data that proves otherwise, please contact the United States Patent and Trademark Office to have them void it.

AMSOIL also has all of these additional "First in Synthetics" firsts:
The Company of Firsts
AMSOIL has a documented history of innovation and leadership.

First to develop an API-rated 100 percent synthetic motor oil.
First to introduce the concept of "extended drain intervals" with a recommended 25,000-mile/1-year drain interval.
First U.S. company to utilize the NOACK volatility test as a standard of performance excellence.
First to produce synthetic motor oils for diesel engines, racing engines, turbo and marine engines.
First to introduce synthetic oils that legitimately contribute to improving fuel efficiency.
First to manufacture synthetic gear lube for automotive use.
First to manufacture a 100:1 pre-mix synthetic 2-cycle oil.
First to manufacture a synthetic automatic transmission fluid for automotive use.
Last edited by timvipond
quote:
Originally posted by Miro Kefurt:

You have to remember that the "Market Share" of Synthetic Motor oil is now in 2% range that is from almost 250,000,000 Light duty vehicles less than 5 million use "synthetic oils"

From the Mobil 1 volume sales that would if true mean that Mobil 1 users only change their oil every 30 months, which is not likely, so again the BIG OIL as well as "small oil" like to misrepresent the fact, or basically lie about their sales.
Where did you get these numbers? The reports I've seen show a 10% synthetic oil market. And retail stores carry much more that 2% synthetic oils, more like the 10% I've seen reported.


quote:
Originally posted by Miro Kefurt:When high quality PAO sells for $8.00 or more per pound and Mobil 1 in store sells for under $8.00 and weights just under 2 pounds, just figure how much virgin PAO is really in it !!!
Where did you get this pricing? The reports I've seen show it goes for about $10 per gallon. Which would seem to reflect the chemical synthetic motor oil prices in the market.
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:


3. Change PCV valve yourself = Not all models even have one now days. You also failed to mention to only use OEM valve if changed,and never use aftermarket valve. You could void the warranty with trajans advice.


Question..........who is actually listening to Trajan..........NOT ME!


I think Trajan gave some good advise. I only used OEM PCV valves, they never gave me problems. My dad told me aftermarket can cause oil use, they did for him, changing back to OEM easily fixed it. I'll take his word.


It's just further proof, if needed, that he doesn't read his own links. It's his own link that says change the PCV valve yourself.

It's also further proof that he cherry picks his own links.

Got to love it. He posts a link, then attacks his own link........
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
quote:
Originally posted by Miro Kefurt:

You have to remember that the "Market Share" of Synthetic Motor oil is now in 2% range that is from almost 250,000,000 Light duty vehicles less than 5 million use "synthetic oils"

From the Mobil 1 volume sales that would if true mean that Mobil 1 users only change their oil every 30 months, which is not likely, so again the BIG OIL as well as "small oil" like to misrepresent the fact, or basically lie about their sales.
Where did you get these numbers? The reports I've seen show a 10% synthetic oil market. And retail stores carry much more that 2% synthetic oils, more like the 10% I've seen reported.


quote:
Originally posted by Miro Kefurt:When high quality PAO sells for $8.00 or more per pound and Mobil 1 in store sells for under $8.00 and weights just under 2 pounds, just figure how much virgin PAO is really in it !!!
Where did you get this pricing? The reports I've seen show it goes for about $10 per gallon. Which would seem to reflect the chemical synthetic motor oil prices in the market.


Same place he gets all his other claims that he has yet to back. The air.
quote:
Of course the United States Patent and Trademark Office approved AMSOIL's trademark "The First in Synthetics", when AMSOIL proved they were the first 100% synthetic oil to meet all API requirements. AMSOIL also submitted volumes of test data showing their oil was the best on the market, and the US Patent and Trademark Office asked for the other oil companies to prove AMSOIL wrong, which they didn't. And of course the trademark has been reviewed and renewed since then. And if you have any data that proves otherwise, please contact the United States Patent and Trademark Office to have them void it.


Tim, that must be public knowledge if it is at the Patent Office. Please Post it here for us to read.

quote:
Where did you get these numbers? The reports I've seen show a 10% synthetic oil market. And retail stores carry much more that 2% synthetic oils, more like the 10% I've seen reported.


Again, Please Post the reports you've seen.

quote:
Where did you get this pricing? The reports I've seen show it goes for about $10 per gallon. Which would seem to reflect the chemical synthetic motor oil prices in the market.


I think we would like to see these reports too!
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
Nice example Bear. Although you used Gear oil for your example, we could easily substitute 0W30 in an engine that calls for 5W20, with no other options. I get the point. It would be a long drawn out uphill battle.

Stick to approved fluids, and mfg recommended intervals, in the suggested grade, and don't play games while under a warranty. Sound advice, and exactly what the service writer told us when we had my GF's Jeep in for a warranty issue. He flat out said, DON'T USE A 30 GRADE OIL IN THIS JEEP! IF THERE IS AN OIL PROBLEM WE WILL PULL A SAMPLE, AND THAT 30 GRADE WILL BITE YOU IN THE BUTT! IT CALLS FOR 5W20, USE 5W20!

NUFF SAID,
AD



Yeh......that worked at real well for some. Play it safe,really,are you sure?

For those of you who think you are safe doing 3000 mile oil changes with receipts,think again.....

http://www.google.com/imgres?i...a:en-US%3Cimg%20src=


quote:
<<<<<Manufacturer warranties might refuse to cover oil sludge damage by blaming you, the customer, for poor maintenance habits or neglect—even if you can prove you changed the oil every 3,000 miles. Without warranty protection, engine replacements are $5,000-$10,000. SAAB, Toyota, VW, and a few other manufacturers have some limited coverage for sludge damage.>>>>>



In sum..........playing it safe as some have said,may not be.....playing it smart!

The smart move is to use group IV synthetic,don't get sludge in the first place,and you won't have to worry about warranty issues......because you probably won't have any issues to deal with.


Instead of trolling me over a PCV change, why don't you read your own link all the way through for once, instead of cherry picking?

look for the line "If you're on a budget" in the link *you* provided.
quote:
Originally posted by johnpr3:
quote:
Of course the United States Patent and Trademark Office approved AMSOIL's trademark "The First in Synthetics", when AMSOIL proved they were the first 100% synthetic oil to meet all API requirements. AMSOIL also submitted volumes of test data showing their oil was the best on the market, and the US Patent and Trademark Office asked for the other oil companies to prove AMSOIL wrong, which they didn't. And of course the trademark has been reviewed and renewed since then. And if you have any data that proves otherwise, please contact the United States Patent and Trademark Office to have them void it.


Tim, that must be public knowledge if it is at the Patent Office. Please Post it here for us to read.

http://tess2.uspto.gov/

Word Mark THE FIRST IN SYNTHETICS
Goods and Services IC 001. US 001 005 006 010 026 046. G & S: Chemical additives for lubricants and fuels; anti-freeze; transmission fluid. FIRST USE: 19910300. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19910300
IC 002. US 006 011 016. G & S: Rust preventatives in the nature of a coating. FIRST USE: 20031112. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20031112

IC 003. US 001 004 006 050 051 052. G & S: Automotive cleaning preparations. FIRST USE: 20040324. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20040324

IC 004. US 001 006 015. G & S: Lubricants, oils and greases for automotive, industrial and commercial use. FIRST USE: 19900400. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19900400

Standard Characters Claimed
Mark Drawing Code (4) STANDARD CHARACTER MARK
Serial Number 78803596
Filing Date January 31, 2006
Current Filing Basis 1A
Original Filing Basis 1A
Published for Opposition December 5, 2006
Registration Number 3210848
Registration Date February 20, 2007
Owner (REGISTRANT) AMSOIL INC. CORPORATION DELAWARE AMSOIL BUILDING Superior WISCONSIN 54880
Attorney of Record Christopher J. Schulte
Prior Registrations 2033283
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register PRINCIPAL-2(F)
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE


Typed Drawing

Word Mark THE FIRST IN SYNTHETICS
Goods and Services IC 004. US 001 006 015. G & S: synthetic lubricating oil; synthetic gear lube; para-synthetic lubricating oil; synthetic turbo lubricating oil; and synthetic automatic transmission fluid. FIRST USE: 19900700. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19900700
Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING
Serial Number 74562272
Filing Date August 17, 1994
Current Filing Basis 1A
Original Filing Basis 1A
Published for Opposition October 22, 1996
Registration Number 2033283
Registration Date January 28, 1997
Owner (REGISTRANT) Amsoil, Inc. CORPORATION DELAWARE Amsoil Bldg. Superior WISCONSIN 54880
Attorney of Record Christopher J. Schulte
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register PRINCIPAL-2(F)
Affidavit Text SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR). SECTION 8(10-YR) 20060713.
Renewal 1ST RENEWAL 20060713
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE
quote:
Originally posted by johnpr3:

quote:
Where did you get these numbers? The reports I've seen show a 10% synthetic oil market. And retail stores carry much more that 2% synthetic oils, more like the 10% I've seen reported.


Again, Please Post the reports you've seen.


http://www.amsoil.com/news/200..._fastlube_market.pdf

"According to the 2009 National Oil & Lube News Fast Lube
Operators Survey, the vast majority of both smaller LT30
(companies operating “less than 30 stores”) and larger MT30
(companies operating “more than 30 stores”) fast lube busi-
nesses offer premium oil changes using synthetic motor oil.
In fact, 92 percent of LT30 businesses and 100 percent of
MT30 businesses offer a synthetic motor oil change, with
synthetics accounting for 10 percent of sales at both MT30
and LT30 businesses."

http://www.businesswire.com/po...22005302&newsLang=en

"Only 11 percent of survey participants are using synthetic motor oil in their engine."
quote:
quote:
Where did you get these numbers? The reports I've seen show a 10% synthetic oil market. And retail stores carry much more that 2% synthetic oils, more like the 10% I've seen reported.



Again, Please Post the reports you've seen.

quote:
Where did you get this pricing? The reports I've seen show it goes for about $10 per gallon. Which would seem to reflect the chemical synthetic motor oil prices in the market.



I think we would like to see these reports too!



You going to show us the numbers Tim, I also looked at Amsoil's numbers on the ASTM D-5293 test and they did not look that good.

I also looked at the 40 Degree Celcius Numbers and I was not impressed.

You seem to like to knock Pennzoil but they did show numbers for the D-4684 test, Castrol Edge also showed numbers for this test, Amsoil does not have any numbers for this test meaning they do not show it on there site.

I have a feeling that since Amsoil is super thick they probably knew they would do terrible with the D-4684 test.

How come Amsoil 0W-20 is thicker than Amsoil 5W-20 XL, that Amsoil 0W-20 is almost a 0W-30 and some would argue that it is almost a 5W-20

Your Amsoil 0W-30 is thicker than Castrol Edge's 5W-30 and its very close to Pennzoil Platinums numbers for there 5W-30 motor oil.

Why is the 5W-30 XL thinner than the 5W-30 100% synthetic oil that Amsoil sells.

The Viscosity Indexes on your oil's looks pathetic, no wonder your oil's thicken up overtime.

Amsoil Motor Oil is just too THICK, especially for the NORTHERN folks during the wintertime.
quote:
Again, Please Post the reports you've seen.



http://www.amsoil.com/news/200..._fastlube_market.pdf

"According to the 2009 National Oil & Lube News Fast Lube
Operators Survey, the vast majority of both smaller LT30
(companies operating “less than 30 stores”) and larger MT30
(companies operating “more than 30 stores”) fast lube busi-
nesses offer premium oil changes using synthetic motor oil.
In fact, 92 percent of LT30 businesses and 100 percent of
MT30 businesses offer a synthetic motor oil change, with
synthetics accounting for 10 percent of sales at both MT30
and LT30 businesses."



Tim, do you have any data besides some pathetic stuff you have posted before, we don't need any Fast Lube junk, real numbers, real sales figures.
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
quote:
Originally posted by johnpr3:
quote:
Of course the United States Patent and Trademark Office approved AMSOIL's trademark "The First in Synthetics", when AMSOIL proved they were the first 100% synthetic oil to meet all API requirements. AMSOIL also submitted volumes of test data showing their oil was the best on the market, and the US Patent and Trademark Office asked for the other oil companies to prove AMSOIL wrong, which they didn't. And of course the trademark has been reviewed and renewed since then. And if you have any data that proves otherwise, please contact the United States Patent and Trademark Office to have them void it.


Tim, that must be public knowledge if it is at the Patent Office. Please Post it here for us to read.

http://tess2.uspto.gov/

Word Mark THE FIRST IN SYNTHETICS
Goods and Services IC 001. US 001 005 006 010 026 046. G & S: Chemical additives for lubricants and fuels; anti-freeze; transmission fluid. FIRST USE: 19910300. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19910300
IC 002. US 006 011 016. G & S: Rust preventatives in the nature of a coating. FIRST USE: 20031112. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20031112

IC 003. US 001 004 006 050 051 052. G & S: Automotive cleaning preparations. FIRST USE: 20040324. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20040324

IC 004. US 001 006 015. G & S: Lubricants, oils and greases for automotive, industrial and commercial use. FIRST USE: 19900400. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19900400

Standard Characters Claimed
Mark Drawing Code (4) STANDARD CHARACTER MARK
Serial Number 78803596
Filing Date January 31, 2006
Current Filing Basis 1A
Original Filing Basis 1A
Published for Opposition December 5, 2006
Registration Number 3210848
Registration Date February 20, 2007
Owner (REGISTRANT) AMSOIL INC. CORPORATION DELAWARE AMSOIL BUILDING Superior WISCONSIN 54880
Attorney of Record Christopher J. Schulte
Prior Registrations 2033283
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register PRINCIPAL-2(F)
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE


Typed Drawing

Word Mark THE FIRST IN SYNTHETICS
Goods and Services IC 004. US 001 006 015. G & S: synthetic lubricating oil; synthetic gear lube; para-synthetic lubricating oil; synthetic turbo lubricating oil; and synthetic automatic transmission fluid. FIRST USE: 19900700. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19900700
Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING
Serial Number 74562272
Filing Date August 17, 1994
Current Filing Basis 1A
Original Filing Basis 1A
Published for Opposition October 22, 1996
Registration Number 2033283
Registration Date January 28, 1997
Owner (REGISTRANT) Amsoil, Inc. CORPORATION DELAWARE Amsoil Bldg. Superior WISCONSIN 54880
Attorney of Record Christopher J. Schulte
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register PRINCIPAL-2(F)
Affidavit Text SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR). SECTION 8(10-YR) 20060713.
Renewal 1ST RENEWAL 20060713
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE


Tim, AMSOIL just patented some words. That doesn't mean anything other than that. Just a slogan.
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Vipond:
quote:
Originally posted by johnpr3:

quote:
Where did you get these numbers? The reports I've seen show a 10% synthetic oil market. And retail stores carry much more that 2% synthetic oils, more like the 10% I've seen reported.


Tim, this is based on an unscientific survey. Please provide real, hard numbers for us to evaluate.

Again, Please Post the reports you've seen.


http://www.amsoil.com/news/200..._fastlube_market.pdf

"According to the 2009 National Oil & Lube News Fast Lube
Operators Survey, the vast majority of both smaller LT30
(companies operating “less than 30 stores”) and larger MT30
(companies operating “more than 30 stores”) fast lube busi-
nesses offer premium oil changes using synthetic motor oil.
In fact, 92 percent of LT30 businesses and 100 percent of
MT30 businesses offer a synthetic motor oil change, with
synthetics accounting for 10 percent of sales at both MT30
and LT30 businesses."

http://www.businesswire.com/po...22005302&newsLang=en

"Only 11 percent of survey participants are using synthetic motor oil in their engine."