Callisa
HTHS is a means of comparing oils of same viscosity when in the performance area, greater film strength at same oil temp, or dropping viscosity giving greater flow but maintaing film strength.
Porsche specify 3.6 or above.
As far as I know
MoS2 is a suspended, non-soluble micro-powder. As such it can settle out in storage when used as an additive in motor oil. However, MoDTC is a fully oil soluble salt, will not settle out in storage, and, in solution, passes freely through the oil filter. (Since it's in solution, it can't "clump".) However, heat and pressure (of which there's plenty inside an operating engine at points of sliding metal-to-metal "contact") will allow the molybdenum to be deposited and "fused" with those sliding metal surfaces as an anti-wear, last-line-of-defense, extreme pressure agent micro-coating in the event the oil film is briefly disrupted.
Read our primer articles on High Mileage Oil, Synthetic Oil and Kinematic Viscosity
quote:
Porsche specify 3.6 or above.
Yes. Do you know why they do that?
Your MoS2 and MoDTC explanations are correct.
Callisa,
Spill the beans!
Spill the beans!
To understand the situation today, you have to understand what happened in the past. Early XW-30 formulations where by far not as capable concerning wear protection as they are today. It is believed and commonly accepted by mechanical engineers (not by Lube Engineers...) that the conrod bearings of high RPM engines need high viscosity / HTHS oils to survive.
But "lessons learned" from the past with these early formulations are still very deep in the heads of the engineers at Porsche, Alfa, Ferrari etc.
Mechanical Engineers are a conservative, tough crowd...
But "lessons learned" from the past with these early formulations are still very deep in the heads of the engineers at Porsche, Alfa, Ferrari etc.
Mechanical Engineers are a conservative, tough crowd...
Callisa,
Going back in history, if you take a classic mini then a 20W50 was specified, but then it did chew improvers.
With more wear on start up perhaps with more stable oils 10W40 appeared to be standard recommendation and now M1 0W40 with HTHS of 3.6.
If a minimum HTHS of 2.6 is required to prevent excessive wear, this may only be ok if not using car after warranty period.
Honda may therefore specify a 0W20 for a high rev engine, however BMW found a problem with some engines and specified a xW60.
Somewhere inbetween may be a good compromise but we are limited by the Mechanical Engineers view of wear in the whole engine and protecting the weak spots.
Without guidance there appears to be a risk to move away from the manual for any particular engine.
Therefore can reducing viscosity and improving flow and temperature control make up for the higher protection provided by a higher viscosity and HTHS, and is it worth taking that risk and dropping viscosity?
The comparison is that WRC use a 5W40 but F1 use a straight 5 or 10.
Going back in history, if you take a classic mini then a 20W50 was specified, but then it did chew improvers.
With more wear on start up perhaps with more stable oils 10W40 appeared to be standard recommendation and now M1 0W40 with HTHS of 3.6.
If a minimum HTHS of 2.6 is required to prevent excessive wear, this may only be ok if not using car after warranty period.
Honda may therefore specify a 0W20 for a high rev engine, however BMW found a problem with some engines and specified a xW60.
Somewhere inbetween may be a good compromise but we are limited by the Mechanical Engineers view of wear in the whole engine and protecting the weak spots.
Without guidance there appears to be a risk to move away from the manual for any particular engine.
Therefore can reducing viscosity and improving flow and temperature control make up for the higher protection provided by a higher viscosity and HTHS, and is it worth taking that risk and dropping viscosity?
The comparison is that WRC use a 5W40 but F1 use a straight 5 or 10.
quote:
however BMW found a problem with some engines and specified a xW60.
True. They found a problem with the engine and fixed the engine hardware problem with oil!
quote:
Without guidance there appears to be a risk to move away from the manual for any particular engine.
True. I wrote that in the past more than once.
quote:
higher protection provided by a higher viscosity and HTHS
Let's say you are 1 meter away from an edge. Behind the edge is the Grand Canyon, and you may fall down and hurt yourself.
Are you now safer by staying two meters awy from the edge instead of one meter?
I don't think so.
quote:I prefer 2 meters as it exceeds my height a bit. Therefore if I fall, I fall entirely on solid ground, not 40% over the abyss, which very well might propell me over the edge.
Originally posted by Callisa:quote:
higher protection provided by a higher viscosity and HTHS
Let's say you are 1 meter away from an edge. Behind the edge is the Grand Canyon, and you may fall down and hurt yourself.
Are you now safer by staying two meters awy from the edge instead of one meter?
I don't think so.
quote:
I prefer 2 meters as it exceeds my height a bit. Therefore if I fall, I fall entirely on solid ground, not 40% over the abyss, which very well might propell me over the edge.
Well, what can one expect if someone stores oil for the next 3 years in his cellar...
Callisa,
My assumption is that the oil engineer will spec the oil according to the weakest link within engine and current oil specification.
However its also possible that the car could be used for short shopping trips or an owner that lets the horses loose.
The oil engineer I assume takes this into account.
With Porsche the latter owner is more likely and perhaps therefore the 3.6 HTHS recommendation. Wheras the former driver may require improved mpg so a thinner oil is specified.
So the Porsche owner may actually want to stand on the edge a little more often.
The paradox is that by using a thinner oil with more flow and better cooling, you may be able to stand on edge anyway.
My problem is the manual was written 30 years ago and specified a 20W/50 Mineral oil.
My assumption is that the oil engineer will spec the oil according to the weakest link within engine and current oil specification.
However its also possible that the car could be used for short shopping trips or an owner that lets the horses loose.
The oil engineer I assume takes this into account.
With Porsche the latter owner is more likely and perhaps therefore the 3.6 HTHS recommendation. Wheras the former driver may require improved mpg so a thinner oil is specified.
So the Porsche owner may actually want to stand on the edge a little more often.
The paradox is that by using a thinner oil with more flow and better cooling, you may be able to stand on edge anyway.
My problem is the manual was written 30 years ago and specified a 20W/50 Mineral oil.
quote:My stash has dropped below 100 quarts. There is a sale on Valvoline at Pep Boys. Guess I'm going to buy some more oil today. Hopefully there is still some SL on the shelves. None of that watered down SM stuff for me!
Originally posted by Callisa:
Well, what can one expect if someone stores oil for the next 3 years in his cellar...
quote:
My stash has dropped below 100 quarts. There is a sale on Valvoline at Pep Boys. Guess I'm going to buy some more oil today. Hopefully there is still some SL on the shelves. None of that watered down SM stuff for me!
Stay with ACEA A3/B3/B4 2002 oil qualities if you don't want to switch to API SM. I made some time ago a comparison in terms of testing limits allowed between ACEA and API SL. You will get for sure a better oil quality with ACEA.
quote:
My assumption is that the oil engineer will spec the oil according to the weakest link within engine and current oil specification.
He Specs the oil according to the service interval requirements and weakest point of the engine, than designs his oil specification. The mineral oil guys will do an oil development if they see a business case for such an oil quality.
quote:
However its also possible that the car could be used for short shopping trips or an owner that lets the horses loose.
Short trip cycle is worst case. The oil has to be changed anyway no matter what quality is used. An owner that lets the horses loose is best case for gasoline engines. He will accumulate miles within a short time and has to go to an oil change after a fixed limit. (e.g Germany for many OEM's: 30.000 km)
quote:Yes.
Wheras the former driver may require improved mpg so a thinner oil is specified.
quote:Thanks for the advice. I know my 29 quarts of 10w40 SL Durablend are ACEA A3 (the new SM is not
Originally posted by Callisa:
Stay with ACEA A3/B3/B4 2002 oil qualities if you don't want to switch to API SM. I made some time ago a comparison in terms of testing limits allowed between ACEA and API SL. You will get for sure a better oil quality with ACEA.
).Hey, here is a real winner:
Valvoline Synpower 5w40
:SM/SL
ACEA A3/B3/B4
Mercedes Benz 229.3
VW 502.00 and 505
BMW Long Life 01
Zinc 1020 ppm
Phosphorus 900 ppm
Calcium 3300 ppm
Callisa
Any info on this process with regard to parameters when specifiying an oil.
How about short cycle and long weekend blast.
Car use and maintenace of car re fuelling etc may have a more significant effect on wear rather than the oil itself!
Any info on this process with regard to parameters when specifiying an oil.
How about short cycle and long weekend blast.
Car use and maintenace of car re fuelling etc may have a more significant effect on wear rather than the oil itself!
quote:
Any info on this process with regard to parameters when specifiying an oil.
It depends "who is the boss". Sometimes it's marketing, sometimes the lube engineers, somtimes the engine developers, these days the catalyst guys want to change the oil.
quote:
How about short cycle and long weekend blast.
That really seems to be the very best method to kill the oil. I have not seen a more effective way. It's similar to police driving, which is the worst case driving condition for gasoline engines in Europe.
quote:
Car use and maintenace of car re fuelling etc may have a more significant effect on wear rather than the oil itself!
Yes.
@TallPaul
That's the way to select a good oil - look at specifications. Forget the amount elements. It's like saying: This picture has such an amount of red colour, green colour, blue colour - this must be a good picture. If it is from Picasso or from your 4 year old daughter - how do you know???
Dino as from the Dinosaur's, from the earth, black gold from Jed Clampetts wells, not synthetic.
I saw a bit different result in a testing program .
The Mobil 0w-40 made both more horsepower on a engine dyno and had less amounts in particle counts in same engine , back to back testing vs Castrol SLX 0w-30 .
Not saying your wrong Callisa , just posting what I saw from another test .
That 0w-40 Mobil is really something else IMO . It meets both GM LL specs and the LL-01 .
The Mobil 0w-40 made both more horsepower on a engine dyno and had less amounts in particle counts in same engine , back to back testing vs Castrol SLX 0w-30 .
Not saying your wrong Callisa , just posting what I saw from another test .
That 0w-40 Mobil is really something else IMO . It meets both GM LL specs and the LL-01 .
quote:
Originally posted by Callisa:
Well, I have seen two engine having run on a dyno under same test conditions, one with Mobil 1 0W-40 and one with a german version of Castrol Syntec 0W-30.
Mobil 1 is good, but Castrol is (at least in this engine, within this test) clearly the winner. Better piston cleanliness, better wear performance.
quote:
The Mobil 0w-40 made both more horsepower on a engine dyno and had less amounts in particle counts in same engine , back to back testing vs Castrol SLX 0w-30 .
Particles where not counted in that test. The difference in the power output could be explained with the standard deviation of the dyno test rig or a different atmospheric pressure. Can you exclude that in your testing?
Besides, one oil does not have to work good in all engines designs if it works well in one.
quote:
Originally posted by Callisa:
quote:
How about short cycle and long weekend blast.
That really seems to be the very best method to kill the oil. I have not seen a more effective way. It's similar to police driving, which is the worst case driving condition for gasoline engines in Europe.
I often hear folks ask what to do about a short trip vehicle and the typical advice is to take it on a long freeway run periodically. So that does not really help? I have such a vehicle ('92 Aerostar 3.0) and have turned to trying synthetic oil in it for the typical 4000 miles per year.
quote:
I often hear folks ask what to do about a short trip vehicle and the typical advice is to take it on a long freeway run periodically. So that does not really help?
It really depends now on lot on each specific case. If you accumulate water in your oil (creamy white sludge on oil filler cap) regularly, I'd change the oil every 6 months. To use a synthetic oil is a waste of money in this case. Even the best oil can't withstand these conditions for long. I have seen a case with 80% city cycle driving and 20% autobahn driving (both in km) in total 6.500 km with a longlife oil - the oil analysis was a desaster. It looked like as if it was driven for 50.000 km high speed driving.
If you do not see "white sludge" in your engine, the oil ages most of the time in a "normal way". In this case you may increase your service interval with a synthetic oil compared to a dino oil.
quote:Thanks. No white sludge. Of course, with a 0.3 meter long oil filler neck, snaking almost horizontally to an accessible, it may not be apparent. But I think I am all right on that. The engine seems to warm up quick and run hot (partly due to the tight engine slot, no engine bay here), I'll see if I can get synthetic to run clean for long enough as the first load dirtied up in about 4 months (1600 miles/ ~2400 km?).
Originally posted by Callisa:
[QUOTE] If you do not see "white sludge" in your engine, the oil ages most of the time in a "normal way". In this case you may increase your service interval with a synthetic oil compared to a dino oil.
quote:
Originally posted by MGBV8:
I assume this is test
http://www.performanceoilnews.com/oils_against_oils.shtml
Yes .
Paul ,
Engine ping will harm effective ring seal and will make an oil look dirty quick from combustion particulates .
Also , some additives used in certain oils will darken when heated .
quote:
Http://www.performanceoilnews.com/oils_against_oils.shtml
Hehehehe, this is a funny test! I made a lot of research work on the shown Dana Wix filter. The deviation shown on the particle side is the same like the media has. Are you now testing oils or testing oilfilters from a single production batch?
The true testing of an oil is to take a batch of production engines coming from the same line,
tear down the new engines and measure critical parts, reassemble them, run each of them for at least 300-400 hrs with one oil, and then do engine tear down. You also have to take some statistics of your measurement into consideration.
This test is nice, but not a scientific wear test.
A power improvement of 15% with an additive....
Back to the topic .
As new additives have come out and when companies are willing to use them I think it's evident that old pao/ester oils can be beat by group III /pao oils w/5% ester . The other slack wax group III with ester makes for good oil but I do not see companies give them big additization due to cost in all probability .
Esters a name for many different types of it . I'm not a chemist but if making an oil I'd sure try to use some d-basic in there along with pao and slack wax or other group III . D-basic gives oils great lubricity even when used in small amounts .
It's funny , the better 5-10 synthetic oils out there come at 1/2 the price of some other high end oils .
Some of these gasoline engines with light ring tension and short piston skirts need the oil dumped fairly often anyway . One key to success is knowing if you own one of these engines then pick a suitable oil and oil change interval for it .
As new additives have come out and when companies are willing to use them I think it's evident that old pao/ester oils can be beat by group III /pao oils w/5% ester . The other slack wax group III with ester makes for good oil but I do not see companies give them big additization due to cost in all probability .
Esters a name for many different types of it . I'm not a chemist but if making an oil I'd sure try to use some d-basic in there along with pao and slack wax or other group III . D-basic gives oils great lubricity even when used in small amounts .
It's funny , the better 5-10 synthetic oils out there come at 1/2 the price of some other high end oils .
Some of these gasoline engines with light ring tension and short piston skirts need the oil dumped fairly often anyway . One key to success is knowing if you own one of these engines then pick a suitable oil and oil change interval for it .
hi ive always used mobil one had a 88 z28 and i drove it hard and i mean hard i had compression test done and at 190k it was as new i bought a kia spectra ive used mobil one from day one as well at 95k engine oil is like new now im a big fan. theres alot of info here what is best oil for my car price being no option ? what about filters whats top filter out there thanks for help
If you want the very best filter available short of a bypass system then consider CM Filters
"There's still something missing here", as in the Chrysler ad. It's my opinion, and I know there's enough to go around, there's synthetics and petroleum oils that are better for some applications than others and vise-versa.
I would like to say "If you can find a better oil, buy it", but that would only stir the pot, not solve anything.
RH
I would like to say "If you can find a better oil, buy it", but that would only stir the pot, not solve anything.
RH
i've mercedes c240 v6. 2002 USA made, (runtime reading - 74500 miles) engine manual recommends to change motor oil every after 10000 miles run (by using 10w-40) i'm just confused what brand to choose. PLS advice to get a correct decision.. thanks a lot
quote:Originally posted by howdymiro:
i've mercedes c240 v6. 2002 USA made, (runtime reading - 74500 miles) engine manual recommends to change motor oil every after 10000 miles run (by using 10w-40) i'm just confused what brand to choose. PLS advice to get a correct decision.. thanks a lot
This is Mercedes current oil recommendations for your car. AMSOIL lists their recommendation.
2002 MERCEDES BENZ C240 2.6L 6-cyl Engine Code 112.912
LUBRICANTS & FLUIDS:
Engine Oil
Grade 1......SEO[1]
AMSOIL European Car Formula 100% Synthetic 5W-40 Motor Oil (AFLQT) http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/afl.aspx?zo=1181889 .
Above 5F......15W-40, 15W-50
Above -4F......10W-30, 10W-40, 10W-50, 10W-60
Above 23F......20W-40, 20W-50
All TEMPS......0W-30, 5W-30, 0W-40, 5W-40, 5W-50
[1] Use only synthetic engine oil formulated to meet
MB Sheet 229.3 or MB Sheet 229.5 or MB Sheet 229.51
Thanks a lot Tim, but i'm not sure if we have here (in Rep. of Georgia) AMSOIL. We have a lot of diferent brands like SHELL & MOBILE1 & CASTROL.. etc(these 3 brands are most popular here)
So if i can't find AMSOIL i'll have to choose one of up named brandes. Question still stays: which of them?
Thanks
So if i can't find AMSOIL i'll have to choose one of up named brandes. Question still stays: which of them?
Thanks
quote:Originally posted by howdymiro:
Thanks a lot Tim, but i'm not sure if we have here (in Rep. of Georgia) AMSOIL. We have a lot of diferent brands like SHELL & MOBILE1 & CASTROL.. etc(these 3 brands are most popular here)
So if i can't find AMSOIL i'll have to choose one of up named brandes. Question still stays: which of them?
Thanks
Not a problem. I can ship to you at wholesale price if you like.
CAPACITIES:
Engine, with filter..........8 quarts [1]
[1] On models with oil cooler, additional oil may be needed when
cooler is drained. Allow 5 minutes after refilling or
turning engine off before checking oil level.
I can also send you the oil filter at wholesale:
FILTERS:
Oil Filter MANN Oil Filter (HU7185x)
Learn more about Mann filters at https://www.amsoil.com/storefr...mann.aspx?zo=1181889
Check your email for more info.
quote:Originally posted by howdymiro:
Thanks a lot Tim, but i'm not sure if we have here (in Rep. of Georgia) AMSOIL. We have a lot of diferent brands like SHELL & MOBILE1 & CASTROL.. etc(these 3 brands are most popular here)
So if i can't find AMSOIL i'll have to choose one of up named brandes. Question still stays: which of them?
Thanks
Since you need local avalability
Mobil1
Thanks guys !
I have to hand it to RL, they only offer their very best oil. They aren't looking to sell good, better, and best. They only sell what they feel is the very best, and aren't looking to cheapen their products to gain market share. Way to go RL!
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The car has 350,000 miles on it and for example, after 35,000 miles on the same oil; the analysis says the oil is still in good condition and the truck after have 44,000 mile on the same oil; each time the oil analysis comes back saying the oil is in good condition. I do have the Amsoil bypass filtration system on both vehicles. http://www.uggsbootsbest.com/
simply put, you get what you pay for...redline and motul are the very very best...if you think a 1- 4$ oil is going to protect , think again. imho..we, the consumer,are being ripped off from oils at wall mart etc.
Any data to support that? I have a lot of data that dispute that. They are good oils, but don't seem to be the best.quote:Originally posted by boxcartommie22:
redline and motul are the very very best...
Redline, Motul, Mobil, Royal Purple, all good oils, better than Wal Mart Autozone oils by a moonshot.
All of those Followed in AMSOIL footsteps.
I first tried Royal Purple and in 10 seconds I knew I would never use dead plants and animals in my vehicle ever again.
I only used RP once I went with AMSOIL and I get called every name in the book, Must mean I am doing a good thing.
I have a newly built 7.3 diesel with 3000 miles and AMSOIL 5W30 since the first start.
This engine will never see an oil change again!
Here is the first UOA at 912 miles http://www.ranchopower.com/wp-...97442-Sev1.pdf[/IMG]
All of those Followed in AMSOIL footsteps.
I first tried Royal Purple and in 10 seconds I knew I would never use dead plants and animals in my vehicle ever again.
I only used RP once I went with AMSOIL and I get called every name in the book, Must mean I am doing a good thing.
I have a newly built 7.3 diesel with 3000 miles and AMSOIL 5W30 since the first start.
This engine will never see an oil change again!
Here is the first UOA at 912 miles http://www.ranchopower.com/wp-...97442-Sev1.pdf[/IMG]
