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DEXOS VS GF-5 LUBE STANDARD

C captainkirkMember
It looks like the automakers(GM) are going to be leading the way and setting the motor oil standards in the near future,rather than Big oil setting the standard. This is how it's been done in Europe for many years now.

The DEXOS motor oil standard will be superior to the New GF-5 standard making Dexos similar to the European motor oil standards, and it's about time!

http://motoroilbible.com/blog/...exos-motor-oil-spec/

http://www.asashop.org/autoinc/nov2009/cover.htm

http://www.nalube.com/e-newsle...chive/2009/july.html


This is a quote from one of the links that shows how good this new standard will be even over the GF-5 stanard.

<<<<The final Dexos standard has characteristics of a European formulation; improved oil robustness to support extended drain intervals with no improvements to fuel economy. In fact, Dexos requirements will incorporate a number of European performance tests (ACEA) that are not applicable in GF-4 or GF-5 standards. Dexos’ final formulation is considered more robust than GF-4 and new GF-5 standards. This is in contrast to one of the key elements of the proposed GF-5 standard, improved fuel economy. GM called for improvements in oil robustness and extended service intervals to support their vehicle’s Oil Life Monitoring System (OLMS) and to require fewer lifetime service visits. Upon the successful implementation of Dexos, GM will likely recalibrate the algorithm on OLMS to further extend intervals, as was done with the introduction of GF-4.>>>>



Kirk
Last edited {1}
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C captainkirkMember
The new GF-5 is already looking not to be a very good choice for doing extended oil change intervals which goes against the direction the industry is headed.

The new Dexos is making the GF-5 seem absolete already.....at least in the realm of extended oil change intervals.

...QUOTE....

<<<<<<GM plans to phase out any mention of ILSAC or API specifications in its owners manuals, in order to promote the new dexos specification. A mockup of an owners manual Johnson showed includes the warning: “Failure to use the recommended oil can result in engine damage not covered by the vehicle warranty.”
Impact on the Lube Industry

The initiatives being undertaken by both automakers will have a lasting impact on the fast lube industry. Ford’s reliance on smaller, harder-working turbocharged engines will put even more pressure on motor oil, possibly limiting the ability of even the next-generation GF-5 motor oil to offer oil change intervals that are much extended beyond today’s standards.

GM, meanwhile, will shortly introduce a proprietary (probably synthetic) motor oil that will allow its engines to maximize technologies like displacement on demand and variable valve technology. >>>>>>


Apparently, the automakers have not been very satisfied with the quality of the present day lubes and all the issues it has caused in their engines.

This indicates that the automakers have lost faith and confidence with the API standards set by big oil, and now are going to take matters into their own hands as did the Europeans to finally raise the lube standards where they actually need to be with todays high tech engines.
Last edited by captainkirk
T trajanMember
a giant leap from the currently accepted norm, where OEM specs are typically established only for specific vehicles that truly require the additional protection guaranteed by adherence to a more robust OEM specification

So much for the "big oil" theory......

"(ACEA), was founded in 1991 to represent the interests of the 15 European automotive manufacturers."
"The vast majority of motor oils in North America meet or exceed ACEA standards"

"The International Lubricants Standardization and Approval Committee, better known as ILSAC, is a consortium of the automakers - General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC - and the Japan Automobile Manufacturers Association"

Ummm, GM is doing this for *all* their engines. Instead of a few. "for all motor oils which are to be used in ANY of their vehicles."

Again, from his own links. And again, so much for "big oil".
C captainkirkMember
quote:
Originally posted by Deltona_Dave:
Trajan,
For what it is worth, most major brand "dino" oils will be able to meet the GF-5 standard. Pennzoil YB is already working on the API SN standard. Not bad for a group II oil.

Dave


That's a bold statement that most major brand dino oils will meet the GF-5 standard.

That sounds like your opinion rather than fact.

For what its worth,the dexos standard will be superior to the GF-5 standard,because dexos will be held to a higher standard similiar to the European standard.

Why use an oil that adheres to a minimum standard rather than a higher standard like dexos,or any high quality present day group iv synthetic oil? With the price to fill up at the pump for fuel....motor oil is cheap.....even synthetic.
Last edited by captainkirk
C captainkirkMember
quote:
For what it is worth, most major brand "dino" oils will be able to


QUOTE..

While each company must meet the stringent GF-5 standards, they may take slightly different approaches to meeting the specification in types and amounts of additives and modifiers. One thing is certain: there will be a higher content of additives and synthetic compounds. This will increase oil life, protect the metal and sealing . END QUOTE


Dave,you said most Dino oils will meet the new GF-5 standard yet overlooked the fact that synthetics will have to be added to achieve that standard.


Kirk
T trajanMember
quote:
Originally posted by Deltona_Dave:
Trajan,
For what it is worth, most major brand "dino" oils will be able to meet the GF-5 standard. Pennzoil YB is already working on the API SN standard. Not bad for a group II oil.

Dave


Not at all Dave. Not bad at all. Now if only there is an A3/B3 dino.... Smile

Oil formulation has come a long way.
Last edited by trajan
C captainkirkMember
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:
Much nonsense....
.


Not my fault you make big oil your personal demon and yet post links that shoot down that theory.


The real demon was all the issues the old lube standards allowed to happen to all those engines....excess wear....sludge....etc.

The reason for the new dexos standard is to avoid any engine damage that stemmed from low quality motor oils.

The fact the automakers are setting new standards of their own like the Europeans...proves they are not happy with the GF-4 or GF-5 standards,and have grown tired waiting for much better oil standards that never seems to arrive,even though the automakers have requested it in the past.

The automakers have done their job building higher tech,cleaner,and more efficient engines as per the EPA,and government. However, big oil has let them down,and now the automakers are finally taking matters into their own hands and getting the lube standards those engines needed all along,following Europes lead from the engine black death years that led to far better oil.

Using your logic,you could assert the automakers are the ones demonizing big oil.....and for good reason!!! Just look at history!! I don't blame the automakers. If I were building high tech engines,I too would demand a certain lube standard,or create my own standards if others couldn't deliver.
D deltonadaveMember
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:
quote:
For what it is worth, most major brand "dino" oils will be able to


QUOTE..

While each company must meet the stringent GF-5 standards, they may take slightly different approaches to meeting the specification in types and amounts of additives and modifiers. One thing is certain: there will be a higher content of additives and synthetic compounds. This will increase oil life, protect the metal and sealing . END QUOTE


Dave,you said most Dino oils will meet the new GF-5 standard yet overlooked the fact that synthetics will have to be added to achieve that standard.


Kirk


Kirk, explain this then.. PYB already meets/exceeds GF-5 and API SN, although not "officially" certified. Still a conventional oil and not a blend.
Pennzoil Conventional Spec. Sheet

Dave
T timvipondMember
quote:
Originally posted by Deltona_Dave:
Thanks for the site. My take on GF-5 spec is better protection for Ethanol (E-85) use, seal compatibility, and of course, fuel economy.

Speaking of ethanol, here in Central FL, it is about impossible to find a station that does not have 10% or less ethanol per gallon. Stuff wreaks havoc on OPE carburetor gaskets!

Dave


Hi Dave. My Florida customers complain more about ethanol than anywhere else. Probably because of the high humidity. It is supposed to go to 15% ethanol soon.

This is the product that AMSOIL just released to help deal with ethanol: http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/aqs.aspx?zo=1181889 .

Q&A on this product at: https://www.amsoil.com/dealer/...e_AQS.pdf?zo=1181889 .

Power Point presentation at https://admin.acrobat.com/_a72...t=true&pbMode=normal .
D deltonadaveMember
Valero is not real popular here. I usually use Chevron or Texaco. I get about 30-40 more miles per tankful than discount stations. Probably due to less ethanol, but about 2-3 cents higher per gal. At least my Titan is Flex-Fuel. Altima is not.

I might try the Amsoil Powershot for my OPE. I use Saber Pro for my 2 cycle mix.

I think the GF-5 is a step up, at least to keep internals from rusting/corroding from the corn liquor.

I did read that some testing has changed for the GF-5 certifications... Confused Anyone enlighten me? Something to do with the high temp wear protection..

Thanks,
Dave
D deltonadaveMember
I guess they kept the same high temp testing for GF-5. Some older posts on various boards (late 08 early 09), mentioned that the high temp testing was going to be different.

I might try some TC-W3 in the tank and see how it goes. Titan out of warranty anyways. I might use some old 2-stroke gas/oil mix that I have sitting around from last year. I will put in a gallon of that stuff first (my tank is almost 30 gal).

dave
D deltonadaveMember
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
The thing about the TC is that it's ashless, which makes it catalytic converter friendly.

And cost/benefit wise, you can't beat it.

30 gal tank... Ouch. Especially if it's premium.

And, going back to Briggs and Stratton:
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2...motive-atrocities/3/


Titan takes Regular 87, thank goodness. Love the Briggs ride, turn of the century go-kart!

Dave
C captainkirkMember
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
The thing about the TC is that it's ashless, which makes it catalytic converter friendly.

And cost/benefit wise, you can't beat it.

30 gal tank... Ouch. Especially if it's premium.

And, going back to Briggs and Stratton:
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2...motive-atrocities/3/


I have been using various fuel lube products such as,MMO,redline,lucas UCL,and even the amsoil 100:1 saber(500:1 in car).

Lately, I have been using the lucas UCL at roughly 5.25 ounces to 25 gallons of fuel. Seems to be the cheapest way to go. They sell the stuff by the gallon on Amazon with free shipping for about $25. In the past, the lucas quieted down a noisey fuel pump in my last car.
C captainkirkMember
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
Yeah, well, we're more interested in the question above.
To wit: Kirk, explain this then.. PYB already meets/exceeds GF-5 and API SN, although not "officially" certified. Still a conventional oil and not a blend. http://www.epc.shell.com/Docs/...601_201003012040.pdf

$25/gal for Lucas vs $11/gal for Super Tech TC-W3 which works just as well....


I read the shell link and noted the Noack volality of almost 15%. Would you put that stuff in you Beamer at 15% volatility? Also,how robust is the oil at wear protection? My guess,not nearly as good as dexos or other group IV oils.

The dexos will have a much lower Noack Volatily than 15%.

Quote
The enhanced robustness of Dexos is categorized by improved low temperature pumpability, reduced volatility limits, tightened limits on weighted piston deposit tests and more aggressive sludge performance. These performance characteristics will require a formulation with additional detergents, dispersants and ashless oxidation inhibitors. Improvements in low temperature performance, volatility and piston deposit control will dictate a base oil mix of predominately Group III synthetic base stocks.


What standard do you want in your engine???

What oil do you already pour into your engine to date.
D deltonadaveMember
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
Yeah, well, we're more interested in the question above.
To wit: Kirk, explain this then.. PYB already meets/exceeds GF-5 and API SN, although not "officially" certified. Still a conventional oil and not a blend. http://www.epc.shell.com/Docs/...601_201003012040.pdf

$25/gal for Lucas vs $11/gal for Super Tech TC-W3 which works just as well....


I read the shell link and noted the Noack volality of almost 15%. Would you put that stuff in you Beamer at 15% volatility? Also,how robust is the oil at wear protection? My guess,not nearly as good as dexos or other group IV oils.

The dexos will have a much lower Noack Volatily than 15%.

Quote
The enhanced robustness of Dexos is categorized by improved low temperature pumpability, reduced volatility limits, tightened limits on weighted piston deposit tests and more aggressive sludge performance. These performance characteristics will require a formulation with additional detergents, dispersants and ashless oxidation inhibitors. Improvements in low temperature performance, volatility and piston deposit control will dictate a base oil mix of predominately Group III synthetic base stocks.


What standard do you want in your engine???

What oil do you already pour into your engine to date.


The NOACK volatility is on par for most major brands of CONVENTIONAL oil. PQI Test Results

I have no problem with that. If it was a GRP III or IV synthetic, then there would be a problem.

Here is a listing of "Private Label" conventionals. Private Label

SuperTech does not look too bad. Some, I would not use in my lawn mower..

Dave
D deltonadaveMember
quote:
Originally posted by Deltona_Dave:
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
Yeah, well, we're more interested in the question above.
To wit: Kirk, explain this then.. PYB already meets/exceeds GF-5 and API SN, although not "officially" certified. Still a conventional oil and not a blend. http://www.epc.shell.com/Docs/...601_201003012040.pdf

$25/gal for Lucas vs $11/gal for Super Tech TC-W3 which works just as well....


I read the shell link and noted the Noack volality of almost 15%. Would you put that stuff in you Beamer at 15% volatility? Also,how robust is the oil at wear protection? My guess,not nearly as good as dexos or other group IV oils.

The dexos will have a much lower Noack Volatily than 15%.

Quote
The enhanced robustness of Dexos is categorized by improved low temperature pumpability, reduced volatility limits, tightened limits on weighted piston deposit tests and more aggressive sludge performance. These performance characteristics will require a formulation with additional detergents, dispersants and ashless oxidation inhibitors. Improvements in low temperature performance, volatility and piston deposit control will dictate a base oil mix of predominately Group III synthetic base stocks.


What standard do you want in your engine???

What oil do you already pour into your engine to date.


Kirk, I guess you are trying to compare apples to oranges. I was stating that conventional oils can meet the GF-5 standard w/o any synthetic base stock.
quote:
"Dave,you said most Dino oils will meet the new GF-5 standard yet overlooked the fact that synthetics will have to be added to achieve that standard."
Because you stated earlier that a more robust additive pack or synthetic blend would be needed. Try reading the full paragraph that I wrote, before jumping to conclusions. Of course a conventional oil is going to have a higher NOACK volatility than a Grp IV or III oil. Two totally different animals.

The NOACK volatility is on par for most major brands of CONVENTIONAL oil. PQI Test Results

I have no problem with that. If it was a GRP III or IV synthetic, then there would be a problem.

Here is a listing of "Private Label" conventionals. Private Label

SuperTech does not look too bad. Some, I would not use in my lawn mower..

Dave
T trajanMember
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
Yeah, well, we're more interested in the question above.
To wit: Kirk, explain this then.. PYB already meets/exceeds GF-5 and API SN, although not "officially" certified. Still a conventional oil and not a blend. http://www.epc.shell.com/Docs/...601_201003012040.pdf

$25/gal for Lucas vs $11/gal for Super Tech TC-W3 which works just as well....


I read the shell link and noted the Noack volality of almost 15%. Would you put that stuff in you Beamer at 15% volatility? Also,how robust is the oil at wear protection? My guess,not nearly as good as dexos or other group IV oils.

The dexos will have a much lower Noack Volatily than 15%.

Quote
The enhanced robustness of Dexos is categorized by improved low temperature pumpability, reduced volatility limits, tightened limits on weighted piston deposit tests and more aggressive sludge performance. These performance characteristics will require a formulation with additional detergents, dispersants and ashless oxidation inhibitors. Improvements in low temperature performance, volatility and piston deposit control will dictate a base oil mix of predominately Group III synthetic base stocks.


What standard do you want in your engine???

What oil do you already pour into your engine to date.


The oil meets GF-5. Despite what you claim, it's a conventional oil. The question was can you explain it?

That is the question. Not what I put in the Z4. Especially as I've made that plain. More than once

But, I'll say it again.

ACEA A3/B3. LL-01 if I can get it. And I can. But it *has* to be A3/B3. Not meets or exceeds. It *has* to have the ACEA mark. I'm anal that way. Maybe I'll try the Amsoil Euro. Maybe.

I've used BMW 5w-30, GC 0w-30, Castrol 5w-40, (LL-98 but still A3/B3), and M1 0w-40. Three of them are on the current BMWNA approved oil list.

I trust I won't have to repeat that.

See, I use API/ACEA rated oil. I use quality filters. I don't exceed mfg OCIs.
Last edited by trajan
D deltonadaveMember
quote:
See, I use API/ACEA rated oil. I use quality filters. I don't exceed mfg OCI


Same here Trajan. Both my Nissan's spec API/SL-SM and recommend mineral based oil. OCI 3750 Severe or 7500 Normal conditions. I meet in the middle and go 5000 on both vehicles. I am running Penz. Platinum Grp III right now (got it for a good price), but will start using PYB. Reason: Price. I am quite comfortable using a quality, name brand oil that meets the automaker's specs. I can get 12qts PYB for about the same cost as 5qt jug of platinum. I use quality filters too.

Dave
E emMember
Maybe I've missed it, but do you guys know that there will be 2 different types of Dexos?

Dexos1 for America with emphasis on fuel economy and Dexos2 for Europe with higher limits on SAP levels. US will also get Dexos2, however Europe does not need the Dexos1 as it looks for now.
Dexos1 needs to fulfill the ILSAC norms and Dexos2 needs to fulfill ACEA C3-07. Basically Dexos2 is more or less designed for Diesel engines AND spark ignited engines, where Dexos1 is only for spark ignited engines.

Backwards compatibility:
“dexos1™ replaces GM-LL-A-025, GM6094M and GM4718M.”

“dexos2™ replaces GM-LL-B-025 and GM-LL-A-025.”
C captainkirkMember
quote:
Originally posted by Deltona_Dave:
Found this tidbit about dexos and GF-5. asashop.org

Seems to be another way to up the prices. 15% for GF-5 and up to 30% for dexos. Seems to be GM's way of getting extra profit, since they were bailed out? Dexos for sparkers seems to be 0W-XX and the diesels are 5W-XX weight. Mostly Grp III PAO's for dexos.


What a crazy concept,charge more for a better product.....less for a cheaper product!
D deltonadaveMember
Who says I am being cheap? I run a decent oil, change every 5K and take the used oil for recycling. My Titan did not cost 40K BTW. 15K, it was a fleet vehicle I bought at auction. I also take almost 8 quarts of oil.
I run Redline oil in the differential and Amsoil in the Tranny. Why spend the extra $ for something I will change out every 6 months or so? Yes, I am old school, and it is my preference. I don't think Pennzoil conventional is "bare minimum". Store brands maybe. The Titan does not perform any differently with Syn or conventional oil.

IMHO, synthetic is great for those who want it, or if the manufacturer specifies it.

I have an additional oil cooler, aux fan, trans filter, and trans cooler for my towing needs. I also installed an oil temp gauge.

I spend 250 a month just for fuel in the Titan.

Dave
C captainkirkMember
quote:
Originally posted by Deltona_Dave:
Who says I am being cheap? I run a decent oil, change every 5K and take the used oil for recycling. My Titan did not cost 40K BTW. 15K, it was a fleet vehicle I bought at auction. I also take almost 8 quarts of oil.
I run Redline oil in the differential and Amsoil in the Tranny. Why spend the extra $ for something I will change out every 6 months or so? Yes, I am old school, and it is my preference. I don't think Pennzoil conventional is "bare minimum". Store brands maybe. The Titan does not perform any differently with Syn or conventional oil.

IMHO, synthetic is great for those who want it, or if the manufacturer specifies it.

I have an additional oil cooler, aux fan, trans filter, and trans cooler for my towing needs. I also installed an oil temp gauge.

I spend 250 a month just for fuel in the Titan.

Dave


You tow with the titan,spend 3 grand a year on fuel, don't use synthetic,live in florida, and tow in all that heat!

I am surprised to see that. Your choice,your vehicle,do what you want.
T trajanMember
Oh pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

Tirades about Gr III. Yet can't explain all the clean valvetrains et al. Can't explain why a B&S motor is clean and sludge free. Cant' explain why PYB is GF-5 ready even though it's dino.

Even puts up link after link that torpedoes your own positions.

Why not just say what you're bending over backwards not to. You want everyone to use synlube.

I haven't seen anything that says Dave, or other dino users, are on the wrong track. But I've seen the results of not following the mantra of quality oil, filter, mfg or better OCIs.

many of them from Kerk's own links.
C captainkirkMember
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
Oh pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

Tirades about Gr III. Yet can't explain all the clean valvetrains et al. Can't explain why a B&S motor is clean and sludge free. Cant' explain why PYB is GF-5 ready even though it's dino.

Even puts up link after link that torpedoes your own positions.

Why not just say what you're bending over backwards not to. You want everyone to use synlube.

I haven't seen anything that says Dave, or other dino users, are on the wrong track. But I've seen the results of not following the mantra of quality oil, filter, mfg or better OCIs.

many of them from Kerk's own links.


No tirades here trajen.........just the facts.........and you don't like them......OH WELL!!
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