No more change of engine oil

I would say that any oil analysis place would be able to tell you whether your oil is still good. If indeed everything you say about this oil purifier is true I would be very interested in getting some additional information on it. Is this a product you developed or a product that you sell????

Prabhakar,

I would like to respond to one part of your query. Can oils last forever! German engineers strongly feel good engine oils can last forever. After my interactions with MAN, Wartsila service engineers I would like to share, with this forum the framework to support the “infinity theory.”

The two main factors essential to make oils, last forever are, large volume and sufficient residence time. The other factors may be standard parameters like:

a) Top-up 2 to 4%
b) Sulphur in Fuels below 4%
c) Monitoring of KV 40 & 100, Flash, TBN and ensuring a variance of not more than 20 %. Correction, sweetening, top-up as and when required to correct variance.
d) Moisture/Water below 200 ppm.
e) Needless to say the grade of oil has to be an OE approved grade.

1. Sump: At least 25000 Lt ( 20 kl), less than that, is NOT COMMERCIALLY VIABLE.

2. Sump sequence & arrangement: 10000 Lt Dirty oil tank (DOL) where used oil from engine passes through a filter (Standard Alfa Laval type Centrifuge available in MAN and Wartsila installations) and resides. This helps in Heat and Mass Transfer and maintains Material and Energy Balances (MEB) and also allows time for "very fine" dirt/contamination to precipitate.

The oil then moves to a 10000 lt clean oil tank (COT) from where it can be pumped into the engine.

Hussam Adeni

Adeni,
Thanks for your positive opinion. I agree with you that 2% -4% topping is essential, but it is a normal process in every engine, it only makes up the oil lost due to oxidation and it will keep the level of additives in the oil at reasonable level.

I would like to point out that for achieving No More Change Of Oil with the help of Klarol Oil Purifier, the sump or the oil tank need not be large. I have given example of the 200 engines in my first poster where this concept has been almost successful and they are small, the oil sump is 35 litres only.

To extend the oil drain period even 2 or 3 times requires lot of courage as everyone is after your neck, the oil companies, OEM and your own collegues. Here in Tata Steel , Jamshedpur, officers of the Loco Department faced the threatening of OEM, but did not budge and continued their programme of extending the drain out period to more than 3600 hours instead of 300 normal working hours.Yes, out of these 200 engines 116 are on shunting locomotives and the rest on Dozers, dumpers , payloaders and shovels etc. On locomotives they are changing oil after 3600 hours when it is still OK and on other engines they are changing after 1500 hours and more, mainly because of fuel dilution due to injector problem.

Cummins people came and threatened them about the possible damage to their engines, but they ignored. They opened many engines after 25000 hours without any symptom of sickness only as a precautionery measure, instead of normal 15000 hours for major overhauling and were surprised to see the good condition of many critical parts, looking almost new. Moreover if the Klarol Oil Purifier would not have been working as per its claim, the Loco department of Tisco, Jamshedpur would have been converted into a graveyard of 116 engines, a couple of years ago itself.

People may propagate many theories,may not believe and ask to conduct many advanced tests, but here is an example from practical field; not a freak case of one or two engines, but of a very large fleet.

You are right that the life of oil may be extended to infinity if it is kept superclean, water below 100ppm,TBN , Flash point and other parameters within allowable limits.It works even on small engines fitted on trucks and buses, sump capacity 18 to 20 litres. We could run a bus with this purifier for 1,20,000 Km without changing lube oil.

If anybody in India wants its demonstration I may be contacted at minimac@rediffmail.com , yes, only if you are open and bold and your decision will not be changed by people of OEM and Oil Cos.

Prabhakar,

It is fair to compare an apple to an apple. In my framework I am referring to the worst condition of use:
a) Running continuously 24 hrs a day and at least 6 to 9 months a year. Stopping only for maintenance.
b) Diesel led Mini Power Plant (say 10 to 15 MW)
c) Low Torque 1000 to 1500 RPM engines (slow speed engines).

On the other hand you are referring to “stop-and-go-operations” or running for limited periods.
1. The example you have given pertain to high torque engines (Dumper/Dozers) and off the road equipment and limited to a location Ranchi.
2. The use of the term "Super clean" is synonymous to Aeronautics (NAS 1638, Jan 1965) and till 2003, widely used for special Hydraulic and Turbine oils. For your information oils filled in Steel barrel can normally permit cleanliness between NAS 9 to 12. Products meeting NAS 8 and upward needed to be filled in special epi-coated steel barrels or plastic barrels only. In actual applications, the oil passes through "servo valves" which have clearances of below a micron.
3. Please note the term "Super clean" is generally not used for Engine oils by any Lubricant manufacturer anywhere in the world. This must hold, some significance.

Finally, please note I would like to use the forum to "share experiences", and "suggest solutions". I would not like the forum to be used to peddle products.

Prabhakar, please do participate in the forum sharing developments in the field and experiences. There is a lot, for all of us to learn from each other.

Hussam Adeni

Adeni,

Perhaps you misunderstood me.If you go through my first poster, you will realize that I have raised only one question,'Is there a way which helps in No More Change of Oil'So our discussion revolves round this point only.Don't you think it to be an important issue.If a solution is found will it not help the whole mankind in many ways. Moreover I have tried to share my experience with you people, not to promote any product. Moreover, if such a product is available which claims no more change of oil ever , why should i not tell others about it.

I raised one question, if by any means i manage to run engine oil for more than 2000 hours safely instead of 300 hours prescribed by OEM, who will test and certify in India whether this oil can be further continued or not. Most of the labs will reject it without testing. But I want to know whether there is any lab in India which can declare some used engine oil fit or unfit for further use without asking how many hours it has already run. This is a very simple technical question.If you give me the address of such a lab, I will send 10 samples of used engine oil , some may be 100 hours, some may be 3000 hours old, i will not specify the running hours.The lab has to test all the samples honestly and give its opinion whether the oil is fit for further use.Please note, i will not mention the running hours of oil in any sample.

Prabhakar,

I'm not against the use of Oil purifier.But would like to tell you the facts of oil and
machine related problems that made OEM to stick
to the safe oil change intervals.Lubricant cost
is insignifficant relative to total maintenance
cost.Usually oils and Filters cost about 1 to 3%
only.

OIl RELATED PROBLEMS :

Oil Consumption: Oil drops its viscosity by way of VI Shear thinning,Thermal Cracking which
leads to the increased oil consumption,deposit
formation.Use of oil purifier will not control
this failure mode.It's unfortunate that oil analysis will not detect the piston and
combustion chamber deposists.The analytical results will get diluted by oil consumption and leads to wrong interpretation.

Oil Additives:Fine filtration will remove additives which are not discretely dissolved
in Base oils.It's the Silicon Defoamer additive.
Foaming is a serious problem in Engines.

MACHINE/MAINTENANCE RELATED PROBLEMS :

Fuel Dilution : Improper maintenance of Engine
fuel system is the cause of fuel dilution and
subsequent engine failures.Extended oil change
periods will aggravate the situation.Engine Seziure due to Fuel dilution will be embarrsing.

Engine Overheating : Most of the users ignoring
the Engine cooling system.Plugged Radiators(Internal and External)can cause high oil temperature which leads to rapid loss of molecular ZDDP additives.Elemental oil analysis
is not reliable for tracking the depleation of oil additives,as it will not differentiate the active and inactive additive molecules.This also leads to wrong interpretation.

ANALYSIS RELATED PROBLEMS :

Due to the porosity of fine filters,wear metal
debris is captured by fine filters resulting in
less debris in oil.At this condition wear metal
analysis is not reliable.Filter Debris analysis
is time consuming and difficult to perform by
commercial labs.

In case of Extending oil change periods I strongly recommend to perform periodic oil Analysis to avoid catastropic failures.

Regards

Bala.

Prabhakar,

Based on what you say in the later part, of the last post the best judge of condition of the oil is the Lube manufacturer. It is the Lube manufacturer that should justify or certify continued use of the same oil.

I managed a 2 year programme for extension of Lube oil life in an 18v32, Furnace Oil fuelled (<4% S) 10 MW Wartsila DG Set. In the year 2000, our team was the first to surpass the Indian record of 8000 hrs lube oil life on 80% plus load. This could not have been possible without the active support from Mr. Rao, Head of the Grasim Cements, DG PP team at Raipur. The oil was finally changed at 10,100 hrs, not because oil condition was bad, but the time coincided with Wartsila’s 20,000 hrs “Top overhaul” of the engine. The driver for the programme was the lube manufacturer (Castrol) and my team member Vishvesh Ranade.

The point I wish to make is, and what Bala also pointed out, Lubes contribute a bare 2 to 3% of the cost of the installation. The onus thus would be on the lube manufacturer or the user. To be fair, it is a combination of both.

In your instance, the lube is possibly a Servo product and IOC being a behemoth less likely to support your cause. However, if the grade is from a smaller MNC like Idemitsu, Gulf, Elf, Valvoline, Motul etc., pursuing the case will be mutually rewarding. You can also draw support from my friends in BharatShell U Diwedi - Tech Ser Mgr or Rajneesh Kadam, Sr Reg Mgr West. From within this forum, Franky Xavier’s Delo series may be a willing partner.

Hussam Adeni

Dear Friends,
It's an interesting debate initiated by Prabhakar, and I personnaly feel that this is the Best forum to discuss this issue.
I would also like to share my experience of extended drain intervals of engine oil.
Very similar type of filter of centrifugal type is nowadays installed in no. of high speed engines in heavy earth moving equipment engines and fleets also and performing well with increased drain interval BY 150-200 hrs with no adverse effect on Engine. In my knowledge there are hardly few manufacturer's of this type of centrifugal oil systems in India.
Further, I feel we should concentrate on basic issue raised by Mr. Prabhakar, and i.e if all oil parameters are under control, wear analysis is O.K, and at last Engines are in good condition, practically pl. let me know what parameter/property is to be checked out for determination of oil condition.
Even, nowadays there are few Engine Oil from Group III base oil, parameters of these Engine oil are similar to Fresh oil even after 2-3 times life.Reasons low sulpher content less than .03% and made from ultimate pure base oil by severe hydrotreating & hydracracking process.
I feel if we are able to save even few litres of oil of any kind, whatsoever % it is contributing to total expense of engine maintenance, I feel it is a great service to mankind in todays age when crude oil prices are touching highest level.

Core of the issue is that if any body can suggest any specific test(other than normal already mentioned) which may prove oil condition is ok or not.

Thanks Husseim and Bala for your active participation and wealth of knowledge, experience & information shared on this forum.
Even I would like to hear from Franky in this particular interesting discussion.

Regards
Dipendra Jha
dctex04@indiatimes.com

hi everybody
the posts have been really interesting and worth the knowledge.i have few queries:
the purifier:is it a common one for petrol and diesel engines,or iron and aluminium crankcases or continuous and stepped use?
secondly:what is the actual way/process this lube oil extension is working:removal of contaminants or recovery of lubricant properties?
thirdly:i think we can extend the lube oil life in terms of shelf life,under continuous use as well as stepped use-with a very big aim behind( as prabhakar pointed out).so what are these methods,coz they will also matter?
thanx

Sam
yes, this purifier will be same for both diesel and Petrol engines, for all types of crankcases, and will remove contaminants of all types.

If you go through my first post which opened the discussion, you will find all the answers.The topic is whether the objective of "No more change of oil" can be achieved by installing some special purifier which constantly removes solid contaminants upto 1 micron size, liquid contaminants like water and fuel thoroughly and also the gaseous contaminants if they are dissolved in the oil.If all the known parameters of oil are kept within allowable limits, why the oil companies or OEM will object to No more change of oil on undisclosed ground. They must come out in the open and declare which other parameters they would like to test which they are not doing in running the oil upto 250 hours.

Bala has raised many points beautifully, but he has also not answered my query.This purifier will remove unburnt fuel from the oil, will reduce oxidation by minimizing catalysts like the metal particles and moisture.He is worried about the possible deposits on piston top and rings, of course less contaminants and no moisture will reduce all this. He is worried that he will not get the wear particles for oil analysis due to fine filtration, there will be least wear and tear, no need to track it so seriously. Yes particles less than 1 micron will be there to tell him the story of wear particles.Additives are there in dissolved form, not suspended, anto foamants will not be eliminated by 1 micron filter.

Bala, plz come up with some positive thought to make this slogan a reality.

well,i do feel,the practical support to the very relevant slogan is worth a go,at various places(only if chaps know about such a thing)
however,i would also like to know,the difference between the data(plot of failure time verses equipment life and oil life)and equipment design life and overlapping oil life for both cases.
mr prabhakar,i'll request some more info on the product and data(if possible).pl mail me at sam.kupar@rediffmail.com.
i would like to try it,if feasible,not only for fleet maintenance,but even for small gensets,too.

Sam,

50 to 60% percentage of Engine failures is associated with improper maintenance of Fuel system,Cooling system,Air Induction systems,etc...Contaminated fuel causes
premature failure of Plunger & Barrel,Nozzles/Injectors,disturbed
air-fuel ratio.Wornout plunger and barrel results in Exhaust red hot problems which damages turbo seals,forms coke in floating
bearings. Defective Nozzles/Injectors tip results in piston torching.Fuel dilution(the moment it enters)wipes out oil film
resulting in Liners,rings distress,Excess levels ends up with seizure.Overfuelling or improper combustion loses engine efficiency.
Suggest to Try KLAROL Filters to keep the fuel clean.

Very often one of the neglected area is Coolent and cooling system maintenance. Improper maintenace leads to Pitting,Scale deposits,Plugged Radiators(Internal and External),This could eventually results in Engine Overheating.High oil temperature depleates Molecular addiitves,results in loss of oil film,Elevates wear,forms deposits,
Sometimes endsup with catastropic engine failure.Usage of proper source water(distilled or de-ionized)with adequate Coolent conditioners,periodic coolent analysis will eliminate the problems due to cooling systems.

Defective Air filters/Air Induction systems allows dirt inside the engine.The moment it enters,causes abrasive wear to engine components.Spectrometers are highly
efficient to detect the Dirt.Taking immediate corrective actions will saves and it directly goes to your bottomline.

Using Good quality of oil (API CH4/SL) will extend the component life.It is important to remember that lubricant cost is insignifficant relative to total maintenance cost.
Oil Analysis is required to optimize oil change periods.Understanding the pros and cons of test slate is essential.

Last but not Least, Removing Contaminants from oilis just like treating symptoms.Treating the cause is a good maintenance practice.Give importance to periodic maintenance,I bet you can double the recommended Overhauling intervals
without bypass filters.

Regards

Bala.

You may want to follow suit of the US Military and utilize an in-house oil analysis instrument to extend oil drain intervals in their vehicle fleets.

The TMEH1 OilCheck detects and measures the dielectric constant of oil. By comparing the measurements obtained from used and unused oils of the same brand, the TMEH1 OilCheck is able to determine the degree of change in the condition of the oil.

Dielectric change is directly related to the degradation and the contamination level of the oil and will allow the user to achieve optimized intervals between oil changes and detect increased mechanical wear and loss of the oils lubricating properties.

http://www.maintenanceproductsdirect.com/Products_Instruments/SKF-TMEH_1.htm

It is very interesting item that was raise by Prabhakar Agrawal. This problem excites a blood. Many years we are told that it is needed to change oil, it is needed to change oil frequently and routinely. And suddenly…
I understand that it is needed to change oil not because it requires OEMs (except for warranty period), but it requires the condition of oil. During of job oil build up water, unburned fuel, oxidation and wear products, soot. It loses viscosity, TBN, additives level… And so on.
Well, to put the case that we have any filter that can separate all solids with size up to 1 micron. It will be wear debris, solid oxidation products (sludge), nonsuspension soot, external contaminations (dirt, sand). Maybe it can separate the water that not dilute in oil. But how it can separate the organic acids which no react with TBN additives and dissolves in oil? How filter can take away the fuel? How it can renew low viscosity from behind VI improver shear? Phabarat says about 2-4 % topping-up. Maybe it can renew TBN and additives level partially. But we're talking about diesel engines (loko, dozers, dumps…) which generate high levels of soot. Sooner or later the dispersants will be depleting. The soot will be agglomerate and block up the fine filter whatever it large may be. How control this filter state?
But on the other hand Prabhakar Agrawal says about its experience in large fleet. And I have not beyond reason not to believe to him. He saw not only Used Oil Analysis Reports, but condition of engine parts after dismantling. Some time ago I was read the article on very long oil life without change. I do not remember exactly but sound like maybe 9 years, maybe 1,600,000 miles. But it was single case. In our case we read about 200 engines. I can hardly believe it!
If I had such filter I run sample of very contaminated oil through it and then compare two Analysis Reports - before and after - and then make any conclusion. It is very interesting, once again!

Mikhail,
Thanks for your interest in such a purifier which removes solid contaminants of any type upto 1 micron by absorption in cellulose filters: removes water , fuel and combustion blowby gases absorbed in oil by evaporation process. Now just imagine, if there are no gases and water in oil, the formation of organic or inorganic acids diminishes considerably.
If the solid contaminants are in huge quantity , the workload on additives increases. More solid contaminants and acid, more depletion of additives. There should be no fear of less dispersants or more fuel dilution. So if such a purifier is installed, you can achieve the aim of No More Change Of Oil

Sorry, Phabhakar Agrawal.
Do you say that fuel and combustion blowby gases removes by evaporation process?
Am I to understand that this by-pass (or maybe full-flow) oil purifer uses filtration process and plus some heating process for fuel and gases evaporation?

Mikhail,
This purifier has two stages of purification, first stage has a absorbant type filter where solid particles upto 1 micron are trapped, then the oil enters 2nd stage where it enters a partial vacuum evaporation chamber for the removal of moisture, fuel and combustion blowby, it is a perfect purifier. When you are continuously removing gases and moisture from the oil, the formation of acid slows down and depletion of alkaline additives also is reduced.In the beginning the additives fall down, but at a certain level they are stabilized where the little depletion is made up by the new additives comind into the oil with top up oil.
One more thing, in the absence of any purifier all types of contaminants go on increasing and so workload on additives also increases in the same proportion resulting in depletion of additives in geometrical progression. But when some purifier is working incessantly right from the word Go, the contaminants are never allowed to accumulate and grow, hence the additives have less work to do resulting in less depletion

Gents

I think that Mr Prabhakar is trying to extend the drain period of oil but that doesn't conclude No more change of engine oil.

A few OEMs conducted trials with similiar filters but haven't commercialised this concept.

Oxidation is doubled with every 10'C increase in temperature beyond 60'C-Engine oil operating temperature is 150'c and beyond. Oxidation practically changes the molecular CH structure of lubricants.The long chains break down into smaller chains.

The question that I would pose to Prabhakar are:-

How is Oxidation controlled in the continuous duty off highway equipments?

Whether any catalyst is being used to reform the molecular structure of the lubricants in the filteration system?

As Hussain indicated normally lube suppliers have extended drains in medium speed engines that use weak dispersents that release the contaminants dispersed in engine oil, but I am not sure whether a high speed engine oil would release the contaminants as indicated by Mr Prabhakar. I leave it to the forum to elaborate on that issue.

Finally to conlcude ,we have supplied turbine oils running for 16 years but the opearting condition there is completely different with huge sumps of 35 barrels that could replendish the additive dosage through top up.

I feel that in this case the top up of engine oil per 100 litres of diesel consumed should be 4 to 6 ltrs ( Due to serparation of contaminants) in a 35 litre sump,that means for every 600 ltrs of diesel consumed the engine is completely renewed. If that be the case then "No more change in engine oil is required"

My one cent to the issued raised.

We have supplied lubricants and executed condition monitoring for TISCO mines earlier.

In case you want to test your used oil you can contact me at : frankyxavier@yahoo.co.uk.

We can also look at suppling high performance oil API CI-4 Plus which would add value to your statement .

I read all messages in this board. In my view Mr. Prabakar's concept of extending oil drain period is possible (no questions are asked about top up oil quantity here) as long as oil analysis report findings are O.k. I mean the following:
Viscosity @ 40 & 100
VI
TBN
SAN
Insolubles
Wear metals
Soot
Nitration
Oxiodation

I also have one question for Mr Prabakar: How TBN depletion is controlled (unless high top up oil!) for such a long hours using disel as fuel?
I tell you that no filter in this earth can come for a rescue to arrest TBN depletion. Is ultra low sulfur diesel is marketed in India?

Kumar
kumartr2@yahoo.com

Dear Mr Kumar,
Sorry for replying after such a long gap, you would have found your answer if you would have gone through my other postings on this topic, might be you missed that
This purifier continuously removes moisture and blowby gases dissolved in the oil coming to sump. Naturally in the absence of both, the acid formation is slowed down considerably, so there is very little depletion of TBN value. Initially it will deplete from12 to 7 or 8 where it will stabilize.Topping up is a normal phenomenon in every engine, so whatsoever little acid is formed to reduce the TBN is made up by alkaline additive going with the topping up oil.
Mr Xavier! You have correctly said that oxidation increases with temperature and is doubled with every rise of 10 degree.But that is a natural phenomenon and has been taken into account by the engine designer. Whatsoever portion of oil is oxidized it is converted into oxidation products which combining with moisture form varnish, sludge and acid.It reduces the quantity of oil in the sump, thats why make up oil is added regularly. These insoluble oxidation products go on increasing in the oil and they change the viscosity and act as catalyst for more and more oxidation. Now if these undesirable products are removed continuously, oil will be cleaner, oxidation rate will not increase, topping up will be normal , no more change of oil will be required.
My request to all those people who read this topic now should go through all the earlier postings , then only they should put up their comment or doubt. It is a very interesting topic and needs widespread discussion.Just imagine, if with the help of a purifier no more change of oil is needed, a dream will come true.

If you want to delay oil changes should you look at the kind of oil. There is a company called Synlube that advocates no oil changes for automobiles.

http://www.synlube.com/

I don't think they say anything about filters. Their web site makes the claim that you don't have to change there oil. I have no idea if anything they claim is true, but their web site appears to be a real business.

So if you combine a filter that leads to extended oil change intervals with an oil that does not need to be changed you might have a solution.

Prabhakar,

Why can't you buy an engine at your own cost and
conduct trials whatever you want....post your
analytical results......

Regards

Bala.

The subject no more change of engine oil is very interesting. Tribological developments are leading towards such elevated standards. In practice, there are many limitations and restrictions.

I am working with a ship management company taking care of High power marine diesel engines.
In this particular field the engine rpm is about 400 -900 revs/min for diesel generators, mostly 4 stroke trunk piston type, about 80- 190 rpm 2 stroke cross head type.

Lubrication is major issue in our profession and many accidents, incidents occurred in maritime environment due to lubrication oil disorders.

the most important point is lube oil managemnt- purification(continuous even when engine is running) is still posing lot of problems.
The major cause is contamination and lubricity properties depletion.

All these leading to oil changes and there are many real time analyses and experiences are with me to share with you all.
thanks to see some productive discussions on this forum.

Prabhakar & All,

I believe in your post, by profession I am a Reliability and Maintenance consultant here in our country and one of the courses I teach is lubrication and contamination control. I do not want to speak more of this as to comply with the forum rules and guidelines.

As far as my estimates will go, around 90% of the population will change oil based on the running hours their car, equipment had been in service since this is the way of doing things.

Oil must be change not based on the running hours it had been in service but by the number of contaminants your oil have and this will reflect the acidity of your oil (TAN).

Now for engine oil, is this possible, yes, but if your equipment is equipped with what you call a by-pass filtration (secondary filtration) with a high beta rating 200 or more, say from 1 to 3 microns in range plus a regular oil analysis check from time to time in order to achieve an extended drain or indefinite oil drain interval. Now a lot of brands of bypass had been seen on the net most specially in the US, why, because it had already been approved by their congress as a means of energy conservation act.

Now if your consider the cost of oil vs the cost of your by-pass and oil analysis check then definitely the latter (bypass and oil analysis) will be much more expensive than the cost of oil itself.

But if you consider the dear life of your engine and the breakdowns you encounter plus engine overhauls after 100,000 200,000 running hours then this is were the Total Life Cycle Costs had been achieved.

Cheers,

Rolly Angeles