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Read our primer articles on High Mileage Oil, Synthetic Oil and Kinematic Viscosity

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Synlube

T timerMember
quote:
Originally posted by synskeptic:
I
From what I have read on this board, I get the impression that there is just no lubricant (mineral or synthetic) that, when used in an auto engine over time, will not degrade because of shear. Is my crude understanding of this correct?


No , the better oils will eventualy thicken but never shear below what they started as .

Oils degrade from combustion particulates and other reasons . The USA is far behind the Europeans in that they have been running longer drains for a period of time and actually sells concentrated top off oils for such drain up to 50k kilometers .

Typically across the pond these engines see no more than 3-4 oil changes in their lifecycle currently when maintained in this way .

Not a bad way to do it in a throw away world .

Now some cars are meant to be keepers from the start , maintenance should be adjusted accordingly for those types
H houcksterMember
SynLube does not normally change viscosity very much during its lifetime. In normal dino oils, thickening occurs when the shorter carbon chains are burned off in engine operation while the molecules in SynLube's components are uniform. BTW, the API still considers an oil fit for service even if the viscosity has increased over 300% from its unused condition.

The source of dino lube basestock is the residue from refinery operations which is about two quarts per barrel of crude (API SA). It contains long carbon chains all the way from those that go into asphalt to very short ones that make baby oil. The shorter chains are more volatile and burn off making the oil thicker. Just what specific reaction to heat an oil has is dependent upon the type of crude from which it was derived.

TIMER wrote: No , the better oils will eventualy thicken but never shear below what they started as.
Actually they do according to SynLube: The long chain polymer molecules that are present in most multi-viscosity oils to give them a high viscosity index can however, shear under stress and become shorter or smaller molecules. This loss of multi-viscosity property is sometimes referred to as "Viscosity Break-Down" a term that was introduced by CASTROL in their GTX Motor Oil commercials.
M mgbv8Member
Houckster,

Synlube base appears to be only PAO or esters etc so compared to a true synth, this should be compared to a synth and not dino.

Leaving aside Teflon, the only major difference appears to be synth additive package to make a 100% synth oil.

If RL is 65% ester then I would not expect Synlube to cost more than twice price.

What are these possible Synth additives that allow the extended drain and recyling of base stock.
M mgbv8Member
As far as I can tell Synlube is an ester based syth with Moly Graphite and Teflon as colloids, and overbased with additives and very expensive.

The extended life is only in ideal circumstances and can easily be reduced to 60k and does not deal with fuel dilution any better than other synth.

OEM oil filters are now very good to allow 2year change.
H houcksterMember
The SynLube formula is understandably proprietary. All I know comes from the website. It is composed of 5 liquid and 3 solid lubricants (graphite, PTFE [nanoFlon] and a synthetic form of moly). I am not aware of another lubricant with its properties. In fact, I am not aware of any lubricant on the American market that employs colloids at all. Only one marketer employs PTFE, Slick 50, and their use of PTFE is primitive with the particles of PTFE being up to 2300 times larger than the colloids used in SynLube.

With regard to fuel dilution, this should not be a problem in a properly functioning engine. The sealing of SynLube with its use of colloids is better than with any liquid-only lubricant on the market because the colloids are embossed into the cylinder walls to improve the seal. Moreover, what fuel does reach the oils, and this is an infintesimal amount, will evaporate during normal engine operation. Moreover, because SynLube is composed of inert ingredients, it will tolerate foreign substances like fuel and water better than any other lubricant.

Don't look for a pricing structure that reflects lubricants that are frequent replacement items like Mobil 1. Also, with a customer base of 13,000, SynLube does not enjoy the economies of scale larger companies do.

If you compute the price per mile of SynLube as I have done, the cost per mile compares vary favorably with any lubricant on the market. Then there is the time savings of only having to change the lubricant at 3K hours, 150K miles or 10 years WCF.

In my own case, I projected that the cost of SynLube would be about $195 which includes the oil, filter, magnets and a quart of replacement oil. In comparison, over the same 150,000 mile period, Mobil 1, replaced at 7,500 mile intervals and using their filter would cost $626 plus tax and that does not include installation so you'd have to install the oil yourself and then there would be the trips to dispose of the used oil etc. and the general cleanup.

I changed my oil for years and now that I don't have to, I don't miss it a bit.

SynLube sells custom tailored kits for any vehicle on the market and includes a 15% discount.
M mgbv8Member
Q&A
However, we recommend for the best possible protection and maximum vehicle life, that you change your motor oil every 50,000 miles or 5 years. If an oil change is delayed, SynLube™ Lube-4-Life ® provides an added level of assurance and protection that is not available in any conventional oils.



If your vehicle is mostly driven in slow city stop & go traffic and you average only about 20 MPH,
then at 3,000 hours of engine operation your vehicle will have ONLY 60,000 miles.

If your vehicle is used mostly for high-speed highway driving at 70 MPH,
your vehicle will have 150,000 miles on long before you reach 3,000 engine hours

Also at site
Start up boundary lubrication is provided by esters, most synths have these and often used as additive carrier rather than Mineral.
H houcksterMember
MGBV8: This is correct. That is why I have stated 2-3 times that the service life of SynLube is 150K miles, 3K engine hours, or 10 years, WCF.

In my own case, I project that I will get about 105K miles before changing becomes necessary as I average less than 30 miles a day.

You are also correct that for the ultimate result that SynLube should be replaced every 50,000 miles. To put this in proper perspective, this is for someone who anticipates keeping a vehicle for much longer than most people would ever contemplate. For the vast majority of people, the replacement interval described in the first paragraph is the proper choice. I believe Miro would agree with me since other parts of the car would surely be failing so as to make keeping the car unprofitable.
H houcksterMember
The oil analysis section deals with the problems of submitting SynLube samples to labs that are not equipped to evaluate SynLube properly. Other lubricants, for example, do not have solids and therefore the lab will flag these solids as contaminants. The main point of the section, as you have probably noted, is to provide those interested in how SynLube is doing in their engines with information that will place results from places like Blackstone in proper perspective.

With regard to cost, SynLube is less expensive. As you may remember, I projected that my total lube costs over the course of SynLube's service life (in my case) would be about $195. I am not generally a heavy driver and keep my vehicle parked to save fuel whenever possible. Consequently, I am projecting that over the 10 year period I will only accumulate 105K miles. Therefore I'll use the 10 year cycle.

Over that 10 year period, Amsoil would have to be installed 10 times and they require a filter change at 6 months (unnecessary in my opinion) to keep the warranty they provide intact. My Ranger uses 5 quarts of oil and the list price is $8.35 for the Series 2000 0W30 which is the oil I'd use if SynLube were not available. Now if you're like me, I'd press for a discount and let's say I can get the price down to $7 a quart. Then there's the filters and their top line filters range from about $9.75 to $28. Let's settle on $10 per filter. That's $55 for each year and that's only if you install it yourself. At the end of 10 years, your costs will be $550 (plus shipping and/or applicable taxes) vs. $195 for SynLube. That's a decent monetary savings of $355 plus the savings in time and the almost complete elimination of waste oil which should not be overlooked. Finally, you can return the oil to SynLube at the end of the oil's service life for a credit towards the purchase of new SynLube.
Last edited by houckster
T timerMember
While I can see your enthusiasm for this product both here and through the use of the Google search engine I cannot buy into it .

I can lube one Ford for year and 15k miles with two oil changes using factory filters and synthetic blend oil for 26.00

The other for 1 year , 1 oil change at 22.00 total .

Another Ford for 9.00 + filter for one year .

All the while dumping unwanted contaminates from the combustion process and fuel from winter driving then my Pennzoil , a Co. that employees many gets recycled .

Down time does not factor in for me as the vehicles need other service such as greasing the chassis , repacking the wheel bearings along with rotating the tires and servicing the transmissions. At these times draining the oil does not take meaningfull additional time for me nor do I have to take oil samples , send them in which is taking meaningfull time out of my day .

As they say , to each his own . Smile
M mgbv8Member
Has Synlube any special qualities?

http://www.performancemotoroil.com/409000

Apart from the other solids Moly is a solid, specifically banned by Cummins, due to excessive valve train wear.

Particles of the Moly can come out of suspension and agglomerate. This can actually clog oil filters or oil lines and the rest normally settles in the bottom of the oil pan. This seems to be more likely when using extended drain intervals
H houcksterMember
SynLube is a "lyophilic sol". The colloid ions in SynLube are permanently attracted to the ions in the liquid lubricants. They will never settle. They will never clog the oil filter or passages. The SynLube website goes into this question extensively under Q&A.

SynLube meets the Cummins performance specification 20076 (also called CH-4 plus or CH-4+).
C callisaMember
@Houckster
I am back from my vacation and read this thread again and some bits and peaces at the Synlube Homepage.

To make a long story short, I stay sceptic...
I still think that the claims from Synlube to exceed ACEA, ILSAC, API etc Specs with one oil without having passed those tests is at least questionable.
In some countries of this world this way of doing marketing could be even a fraud.

quote:
Being a skeptic is a good starting point for investigation if it doesn't mean rejecting information without justification.

I quoted this statement of yours, because I am still waiting for valuable information. It is common practice in the industry to use industry wide accepted tests to compare oils and evaluate them. But obviously these results do not exist for Synlube products.

quote:
SynLube is a "lyophilic sol". The colloid ions in SynLube are permanently attracted to the ions in the liquid
lubricants. They will never settle. They will never clog the oil filter or passages.

To verify such a statement, you should have at least results from a cold sludge test from Sequence VE/VG test, a M111 ACEA sludge test and a Peugeot TU3M hot oxidation test. So tell me, as Synlube does not have these results, how can they make such a claim?

If I understood this right, you want to use this oil with "refreshing" for 10 years and 105k miles.
At Synlube I found this statement:
quote:
But likewise these permissible extended oil change intervals are based on the expected service life of ONLY 5 years or 50,000 miles for vehicles operated under ideal conditions. If vehicle is operated under severe service operating conditions (as most vehicles are), or if longer service life is required, this extended service interval needs be likewise reduced to one half or one third.

This means that engine oil should still be changed every 12,000 to 7,500 miles in most automotive and light truck applications.

As Synlube states that most vehicles need an oil change after 7,500 - 12,000 miles - what makes you so sure that you are using the right driving pattern?
A analysisguyMember
Houckster, I frequent BITOG and am one of those that posted about synlube from your prompting.

I shared investigative testing on synlube here years ago. I have also shared what little I know about the products at BITOG.

I am not totally "down" on the products as I have seen proprietary oil analysis data of the products after use.

No one attempted to poo poo you, you had a chemist and physicist, Molakule, give you sound reasons for why he was skeptical, not dismissive.

The basic theory of formulation that is used is a old nazi/ eastern block turbine lube designed before many of the adds and baseoils where available to protect the pitiful metallurgy used in those years and countries.

From reading Callisa, he/she is automotive only and may not be old enough to remember the reasons for the formula.

You are obviously convinced on the attributes of the synlube products and are currently using them. Get some oil analysis work performed by a lab and analyst that can properly interpret the results on your car and truck. If it tests well then enjoy, if it tests poorly be willing to change course.

Quit arguing and see the results for yourself.

Post those results at BITOG and prove the worth of the products.

analysisguy
H houcksterMember
AnalysisGuy: Just who would be competent to do analysis of SynLube? Certainly not Blackstone. Also, I only have just over 8K miles on the SynLube in my Ranger so it's not old enough to show the kind of durability that would impress anyone.

As far as I understand it, SynLube does have it origins in research done by the Nazis in WWII but the current formulation completed in 1996 brings the formula up to date and it has recently met the new API/SM and ILSAC GF-4 (??) standards without problem.

As for arguing, this is one of the problems that I had at BITOG. They were apparently unable to perceive the difference between an exposition and discussion of the products properties and an argument. They wrote the product off without much consideration, Molakule's comments not withstanding.

As to when I will do an oil analysis, I guess that will be at 20K miles and not before. That's about a year away. I will post the results here.
C callisaMember
Thank you, Analysisguy. You are right with your statement, that my points are related to automotive.
In addition to this thread I'd like to add, that my focus is on long oil dtrain intervals. I try to understand what's happening during long oil drain intervals within the oil. I have data showing that it's possible to use quality oils under best case conditions up to a 100.000 Miles without an oil change. No wear, no high oil consumption - everything fine. These oils are readily available in the market for years - Yet I would not recommend anyone to do such long oil drain intervals in his private car.
Why not? Doing such long oil drains may lead to funny effects within the oil, which may harm your engine. Especially the infulence of fuel for oil deteoriation is tremendous. Using proper fuel is the most important thing in a long oil drain interval.
E.g. if you have traces of dienes or improper balanced PIBA / PIBSA Detergents / dispersants in your fuel - and you get problems. These molecules are added to your oil via blowby.
One last remark to Synlube - The ILSAC GF-4 spec limits the allowed TBN to below ca. 8. It's hidden in the phosphour / sulfur limits of the spec. How can the very same product fulfill a Cummins Limit of having a TBN of at least 10 and fulfill GF-4 at the same time? It's a miracle to me....
M mgbv8Member
VW Castrol SLX Longlife Overview for OCI
9k or 12mths or Longlife 30k 24mths about 5 times shorter than synlube and 3+times shorter than 100k best case (Callisa anymore details?)

LongLife Regime.
To obtain the most benefit from the LongLife service regime, the car should to be generally driven in a style/condition of use listed below
• Mainly longer distance journeys.
• Limited number of cold starts, engine is kept at operating temperature over a longer period of time.
• Daily mileage above approx. 25 miles.
• Constant speed.
• Vehicle used regularly.

Time/Distance Regime.
It your is driven in a style of use listed below, it may make sense to opt for the Time/Distance regime.

• Extremely uneconomical driving style ie continual maximum acceleration ie "foot to floor"
• Vehicle fully loaded
• Mainly short journeys.
• Frequent cold starts.
• Frequent hill climbs.
• Frequent towing.
• City Centre driving
C callisaMember
@MGBV8
I was talking about a 100.000 miles = 160.000 Km.

Your list describes very well the best case behaviour of a gasoline engine driver.

Diesel engines is something different for Europe. I know Diesel engines which are allowed to drive a 50.000 km ODI. But looking at the oil results and test results I have, I still see no reason why they should not be capable of driving 100.000 Km / 2 years with a good group III based 5W-40 ACEA A3/B4 oil, which is not that expensive after all.
H houcksterMember
In a search of the SynLube website, I am unable to find any qualification to the SynLube guarantee that the oil must be babied by restricting the use of a vehicle to ideal types of mileage. Thus I am of the opinion that SynLube is just as applicable to the little old lady who just drives to Church on Sunday as it is to the high mileage driver. This is a key part of SynLube's value.

Also, if TBN is a question in a person's mind, SynLube will sell anyone who wants it, several ounces of the necessary chemical to raise the TBN to the required level.
M mgbv8Member
Houckster,

The Q&A suggested OCI for styles of driving but recommended 50k or 5 years.

With other posts about the potential longer life of regular oil, oil suppliers do not have control over filters apart from on new cars, and oil fiters have been a weak link in the extended OCI.

There is also public demand for cheap oil that can be changed every 3k miles and so oil companies build to spec required, and only when a car mft requests a longer OCI do the oil companies fulfill the need, the exception being Amsoil.

Leaving aside the solids issue, what is different about Synlube compared to other synths, or could these be run for an equally long period if there was a Public demand.

Interesting thread on BITOG re Racing oil and Auto rx being the ultimate and expensive oil.
H houcksterMember
The Q&A recommended that an oil change inverval of 50,000 miles for the absolute longest wear from an engine but this is usually unnecessary in most cases. The 150,000 mile/3K engine hour mile interval is usually fine for most people since other parts of the car will start failing well before the engine does. Remember that the company offers a 300K mile warranty for engines equipped with SynLube since new. This warranty holds for the 150K mile intervals.

SynLube supplies oil filters that are of sufficient quality to last for the term of service they advise. This will vary with the car. I believe that currently, they are offering the upper level Fleetguard filters plus upper level GM filters that are designed with far better components than are usually available from auto parts stores.

I am using a CM filter that is rebuildable and filters down to 8 microns. It's flow capacity is so high that it doesn't even have a bypass valve. I believe I have discussed them and provided a link.

Beyond the solids, the advantage of SynLube is the inert qualities of the formula components. With this oil, problems like acidity are avoided in the first place. Dino oils that will form acids due to the interaction with contaminants introduced to the oil through poor sealing at the rings. Consequently, they need a high reserve TBN. This is the reason for the Cummins spec. When the reactivity of the oil is avoided, Cummins engines, I'm told, work fine with SynLube.

Another standout feature of SynLube is the additive package. At the price SynLube sells for, the additives (some of which are actually not necessary but are there for standards purposes) are of the best quality. The higher quality additives often tend to take up less of the total volume of the product. This is important as some of the additives have no lubricating properties in themselves and are there only to protect the oil from its environment. Dino oils often have up to 20% of their volume dedicated to additives.

In contrast, oils like Mobil 1 don't have the best additive package. Since the base oil is so much more expensive than virgin dino, the only way the Mobil 1 folks can compete is to cut back on the additive package.
M mgbv8Member
In contrast, oils like Mobil 1 don't have the best additive package. Since the base oil is so much more expensive than virgin dino, the only way the Mobil 1 folks can compete is to cut back on the additive package.

Any evidence that this is the case?

300K mile warranty for engines equipped with SynLube since new.

Which engines are these?

Synlube constantly compare product to a dino.

recommended that an oil change inverval of 50,000 miles for the absolute longest wear from an engine but this is usually unnecessary in most cases

Are not all Uaual recommended OCI based on absolute longest wear?

On assumption that Redline etc use the best possible esters - why can Synlube obtain a product 5x10 times better
H houcksterMember
quote:
In contrast, oils like Mobil 1 don't have the best additive package. Since the base oil is so much more expensive than virgin dino, the only way the Mobil 1 folks can compete is to cut back on the additive package.
Any evidence that this is the case?
ANSWER: I have seen some tests by Amsoil which indicate that their lubricant is better on the wear tests, especially when talking about Mobil 1 0W30. Also, Mobil 1 recommends adhering to the OEM OCI recommendations so in their view, since Mobil 1 is not promoted as a long interval change oil, they would rather sell at a lower price to be at least marginally competitive with the dino oils.

quote:
300K mile warranty for engines equipped with SynLube since new.


Which engines are these?
ANSWER: SynLube makes no qualification on this. Any engine should qualify.

Synlube constantly compare product to a dino. ANSWER: Yes. Dino oil is 95% of the market so that's the most relevant comparison. The website is primarily directed at average people investigating this product.

quote:
Recommended that an oil change inverval of 50,000 miles for the absolute longest wear from an engine but this is usually unnecessary in most cases.
Are not all Uaual (???)recommended OCI based on absolute longest wear?

ANSWER: No, car manufacturers have no interest in us driving OUR cars for 300K miles. They specify an oil that will give reliable service for a suitable amount of time which I believe to be somewhere in the area of 100,000 miles. After that they'd like to see you in the showroom real soon. The lighter weight oils (0W20, 5W20), in my opinion are examples of another attempt to shorten engine life. Most engines were never designed for these oils. Ford, for example has only 2 engines designed for thinner oils. The rest of their engines had 5W30 recommended for them just a few years ago.

On assumption that Redline etc use the best possible esters - why can Synlube obtain a product 5x10 times better.
ANSWER: Since both formulas are proprietary it is hard to draw comparisons but look at the marketing of the oils. SynLube emphasizes long use intervals while Redline emphasizes racing where long change intervals are not a consideration.
M mgbv8Member
I agree with light weight oil comments although HTHS is importent re wear, but the following re MB indicates this but 0W40 M1 is top product for say 25-30k mile 2yr OCI, which indicates additive package is up to scratch for top class machinery including SLR-McLaren

http://www.whnet.com/4x4/oil.html

recommended OCI based are still based on absolute longest wear, although the oil choice may be influenced by fuel economy?


Although most oil companies do not directly advertise their base those promoting top quality oils emphasise the base oil usually esters. The benefits of using esters are at the extremes as as expensive not used in any quantity for road oils. However they can be used instead of mineral oil as additive carriers. The claims by Synlube ignore this aspect and hide behind "formula are proprietary " with regard to base oils since they do not need to disclose exact mix, this is somewhat perplexing compared to Redline who are open about this matter to develope niche market.

A warranty based on very few cars having Synlube as first fill can easily be made.
H houcksterMember
Re: The link for Mobil 1 0W40 you mention is for a "European formula" which is very likely different that what we can get here since Europe's standards are higher than ours. The Amsoil comparison was for the 0W30 oil we can buy.

As far as OCI intervals, I remain convinced that OEM recommendations do not envisage the longest possible engine life.

quote:
Although most oil companies do not directly advertise their base those promoting top quality oils emphasise the base oil usually esters. The benefits of using esters are at the extremes as as expensive not used in any quantity for road oils. However they can be used instead of mineral oil as additive carriers. The claims by Synlube ignore this aspect and hide behind "formula are proprietary " with regard to base oils since they do not need to disclose exact mix, this is somewhat perplexing compared to Redline who are open about this matter to develope niche market.


Would you please redo this paragraph? I am not sure what it means. Thank you.
M mgbv8Member
Houckster

First time I've noticed solids used in convential oil other than Synlube.


----
Elf Molygraphite 10W30 Engine Oil (3 litres)
270638
Exclusive lubrication technology from Elf... incorporating solid lubricants of graphite and molybdenum disulphite. Available in 3 litre pack.

Key Features
Viscosity rating of 10W30.
Provide excellent thermal and oxidation stability.
Reinforced with dispersing and detergent properties.
Superior anti-wear properties.
High shear stability ... providing optimum lubrication at low and high temperature.
Suitable for all gasoline/petrol engine from 600 cc.
Benefits
Noticeable decrease in wear and tear due to cold start, especially in the morning.
Better lubrication at all times increases engine efficiency, better fuel consumption.
Maintain engine in silent operating condition.
Added protection from graphite and molybdenum provide better protection and increase reliability of moving parts.
Keeps engine in clean under all operating conditions.API: SJ
C callisaMember
61 K miles for 1 quart of oil. That is an extreme low oil consumption. It may sound strange, but to have a little oil consumption between 0,05-0,08 L/1000 km) is according to my experience best for your piston rings. Having lower oil consumption then that leads to a build up of hard, shiny coal in the piston ring groove. This shiny coal is the nightmare of a piston designer. It leads to cold stuck and later to hot stuck piston rings and to so called ring riding. The hard coal grows behind the piston ring, leading to increased piston ring wear. This coal is so hard, that you can't remove it even with a screwdriver.
It consists of Calcium / Magnesium salts coming from the additive package.
H houcksterMember
Per Callisa:
quote:
. . . hard coal grows behind the piston ring, leading to increased piston ring wear. This coal is so hard, that you can't remove it even with a screwdriver. It consists of Calcium/Magnesium salts coming from the additive package.
Because the SynLube formula is proprietary, we don't know if calcium and magnesium are in the formula in the first place. Since SynLube is designed for ultralong usage intervals, additives that have these problems are probably not in it. I think it is a mistake to assume the characteristics of an additive package for a motor oil costing $1-2 with the characteristics of SynLube costing $32. Such a problem as you describe would certainly have run the company out of business since they have a guarantee on the engine for any oil-related failures lasting up to 300K miles.
Last edited by houckster
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