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Read our primer articles on High Mileage Oil, Synthetic Oil and Kinematic Viscosity

quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
Its easy when you decide not to participate in certifications then claim you exceed them.

AD


Which brings to mind the following:

Keep in mind that unlike standard oil industry approvals, where an oil can get a grade by being within a range of criteria, OEM-approved oils use a set of standards that have been tested on your vehicle and been proven to work. I would be surprised if a company that uses the term "exceeds" spent the money to have an OEM test its oil only to receive a letter that says, "We're sorry but your product is too good, we can't offer you approval." The same thing holds true with the use of the term "meets." Since the other oil companies don't spend the time and money to have the OEM, how would they know it meets the requirement? Plus, if it did really meet the requirement then it would be an approved oil.

Some people like to cry foul and say that they don't think it's right for a car manufacturer to dictate what type of oil to use, especially if another oil company says their product exceeds their specifications. The other oil company might throw up some test and show some proof that their oil is superior to an approved oil brand. But there really is only one test for approval and that's the real-world test, which includes extensive testing of emissions, oxidation, wear-and-tear distribution on moving metal-to-metal parts, fuel economy, and severe wear-and-tear testing (about 600 hours of continued use) on your type of vehicle.

I even told one purveyor of a certain oil that, provided he buy the engine, I'd use his oil. I'd even spring for the Dyson lab work.

The fact that he declined shows the level of faith in his product.
API certs. good or bad are a starting point and help the consumer. Maybe not the greatest testing in the world, but they are something. Sitting back not participating then tooting your own horn IMO about how great a product is would be a bunch of BS.

You want to make claims the product is better then get into the game. I can home brew my own oil and say how great it is too, putting my money where my mouth is would be another story. Since these companies claim these tests are expensive I see that as a half truth and an easy way out. Oh yea and a way to increase profit...............My $.02

AD
Trajan said....
quote:
I even told one purveyor of a certain oil that, provided he buy the engine, I'd use his oil. I'd even spring for the Dyson lab work.

The fact that he declined shows the level of faith in his product.


-----------------------------------------

Using your nutty logic Trajan,would that also apply to Goodyear tire as well if they didn't buy you a car if you promised to install their tires?

Let's also ask Mobil(using your logic-or lack of) to buy you a car if you promise to gas up for ten years with their fuel-with a signed contract even. That would be the most equitable agreement possible,and guess what Xom(mobil) would still tell you......


In sum........using, 'your logic',Goodyear tires are junk,and so is Mobil gas?


Any other brilliant conclusions Trajan,we're all on the edge of our seats!
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
API certs. good or bad are a starting point and help the consumer. Maybe not the greatest testing in the world, but they are something. Sitting back not participating then tooting your own horn IMO about how great a product is would be a bunch of BS.

You want to make claims the product is better then get into the game. I can home brew my own oil and say how great it is too, putting my money where my mouth is would be another story. Since these companies claim these tests are expensive I see that as a half truth and an easy way out. Oh yea and a way to increase profit...............My $.02

AD



Well Ad,what is stopping you? You too can get into the business as a tribologist/oil blender. Show'em how it's done! I bet those fees would make you think twice when it really cuts into your bottom line.

Why not just put the money into making a better product instead,like some are doing........and quite well at that!

Now, what I can't figure out, is.......Big oil with it's deep pockets should have no problems making the Best motor oil lube............SO WHY DON'T THEY?

Aren't they(big oil) already making more than enough from selling fuel.......to us! What gives! I have to buy their lousy gas...........and oil too! Instead,I will support the little guy making a quality lube product!
Well Kirk I look at it this way, at least with the certs the consumer has something to go by. Vs. dealers trying to make a buck pushing a product that isn't certified. Lets use beef for an example, I'd rather have "Grade A Beef" that passed USDA standards than something imported from a country that has no standards at all. I trust the USDA before someone who is paid selling non cert. meat, telling me its good beef. No thanks!

AD
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
Well Kirk I look at it this way, at least with the certs the consumer has something to go by. Vs. dealers trying to make a buck pushing a product that isn't certified. Lets use beef for an example, I'd rather have "Grade A Beef" that passed USDA standards than something imported from a country that has no standards at all. I trust the USDA before someone who is paid selling non cert. meat, telling me its good beef. No thanks!

AD



There is No comparison between between food and a man made product,like motor oil. You don't eat motor oil,you blend it from base stocks.

"dealers trying to make a buck"--------What about the major bucks big oil is making,and it's all certified too!........Doesn't it feel so much better when you're getting..... "officially robbed" by a certified robber!


Show me where the lack of any API "CERTS",has led to any legal,or quality issues with motor oil products.
quote:


There is No comparison between between food and a man made product,like motor oil. You don't eat motor oil,you blend it from base stocks.

"dealers trying to make a buck"--------What about the major bucks big oil is making,and it's all certified too!........Doesn't it feel so much better when you're getting..... "officially robbed" by a certified robber!


Show me where the lack of any API "CERTS",has led to any legal,or quality issues with motor oil products.


As far as food, man raises, cares for, and feeds the animal, then kills it, and brings it to market. Ever eat beef in Mexico?


Here we go with proof, show me proof the non certified oil is better? Not sales propaganda, or bogus tests.

AD
What are these guys(API) really all about...

The association’s chief functions on behalf of the industry include advocacy and negotiation with governmental, legal, and regulatory agencies; research into economic, toxicological, and environmental effects; establishment and certification of industry standards;

Lobbying

API has spent more than $3 million annually for each the last five years (2005 to 2009) on lobbying, and $3.6 million in 2009.[3] In API’s latest quarterly “Lobbying Report” submitted to the US Senate, the organization reported that it had 16 lobbyists supporting it to lobby on various Congressional activities.[4]

http://www.api.org/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A..._Petroleum_Institute


SOUND LIKE POLITICS TO ME! JUST ANOTHER BUREAUCRACY!


This reminds me of how BP got "certified" just before the well blew out!
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
quote:


There is No comparison between between food and a man made product,like motor oil. You don't eat motor oil,you blend it from base stocks.

"dealers trying to make a buck"--------What about the major bucks big oil is making,and it's all certified too!........Doesn't it feel so much better when you're getting..... "officially robbed" by a certified robber!


Show me where the lack of any API "CERTS",has led to any legal,or quality issues with motor oil products.


As far as food, man raises, cares for, and feeds the animal, then kills it, and brings it to market. Ever eat beef in Mexico?


Here we go with proof, show me proof the non certified oil is better? Not sales propaganda, or bogus tests.

AD


Funny how he cries about oil makers and "major bucks." When this "synlube", even on ebay, costs more than three times what M1 costs from say, Pep Boys.

Haven't seen a VOA where M1 failed. Seen synlube ones though.
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
quote:


There is No comparison between between food and a man made product,like motor oil. You don't eat motor oil,you blend it from base stocks.

"dealers trying to make a buck"--------What about the major bucks big oil is making,and it's all certified too!........Doesn't it feel so much better when you're getting..... "officially robbed" by a certified robber!


Show me where the lack of any API "CERTS",has led to any legal,or quality issues with motor oil products.


As far as food, man raises, cares for, and feeds the animal, then kills it, and brings it to market. Ever eat beef in Mexico?


Here we go with proof, show me proof the non certified oil is better? Not sales propaganda, or bogus tests.

AD


Funny how he cries about oil makers and "major bucks." When this "synlube", even on ebay, costs more than three times what M1 costs from say, Pep Boys.

Haven't seen a VOA where M1 failed. Seen synlube ones though.



The Synlube in the longer-run is actually quite inexpensive-100% credit for returned used SL.

NO FAILURES HERE! MY ENGINES SAY SO!

VOA FAILED.......SAYS WHO!

BRUCE!

LET'S SEE.......SAME OIL SAMPLE,SEVERAL TESTS DONE,DIFFERENT RESULTS EACH TIME,EQUALS FAILURE OF TEST/TESTER/EQUIPMENT......NOT OIL.

We have had this discussion regarding 'test results',and how unreliable/inconsistent they can be.

(AD said.)

"Here we go with proof, show me proof the non certified oil is better? Not sales propaganda, or bogus tests."

In all these years with the other,'non certified' oil being in the market place...........we would have found out by now if they were any issues with/'non-certified' oil. TO DATE-NONE! JUST THE OPPOSITE IN FACT. The non-certified oils are looking to be much,much better actually!

Where are all the blown up engines with the non certified oil?... OH,that's right,the blown/sludged up engines all had been running with........API "CERTIFIED" OIL. SO MUCH FOR API,certified oil!


In the end.............the engine-oil/ longevity/performance is the ultimate proving ground.......and all the proof positive in this case for the so-called,Non-cert/oil.
Last edited by captainkirk
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
Tell that to my uncle running PYB in an F Series Ford now approaching 275K. Sorry Kirk Pigs will fly before I put Synlube in anything I own. Especially since there is no real business address.

AD


Millions of cars use dino. That's all they need. Even the 2010 Camaro V6 uses dino. If dino oils were bad, no car maker would spec them for engines. No one would buy them.

Dino oil isn't the problem. Owners who use the wrong viscosity or the "put in an unapproved oil, and ran it way over the manufacturer specified limit, and now expect Ford to pay for your stupidity" kind are the problem.
"Millions of cars use dino. That's all they need."

Bingo!

All these Drama Queens are quite amusing, whacking each other over the head with their sequined bags regarding whose version of synthetic overkill is the one and only. They sound like the guy on the bizarre contact lens commercial moaning about his 'special eyes' and how no one could have his brand, which of course is just a regular old brand that is available everywhere.

I think there may be self-esteem issues at work here. If you convince yourself that your car needs 'special' oil, your car must be special and so are you for owning it, right? When the reality is that most modern dinos are overkill for most passenger vehicle applications.

I just don't see the benefit spending extra money so that when my worn out hulk is towed to the scrap yard, it will have a nice, shiny clean crankcase. I don't want my engine to last forever, I just want it to last as long as the rest of the car.
Lamont- You sound just like my uncle with the F series Ford. He says "for the most vehicles PYB, Mobil 5000, GTX, or any good dino would have made his old Ford last just as long as the very best A*******l brew." He doesn't buy into salesman's tales, or marketing hype.

He says use the recommended grade oil, change it, change the filters, and drive. I remember him asking a know it all type pushing expensive oil to prove him wrong, he's still waiting. I'm glad he set me straight, for a while I fell for he hype.

AD
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:

He says use the recommended grade oil, change it, change the filters, and drive.

AD


Good advice. I use what I do not because it's a "special" car, but because that is what is called for.

If it was spec'd for dino oil, I'd use that. That's what I used in every other car from the 1964 Buick to the 1997 Camaro.

A $32 bottle of goo? Not when what I know works is only $6.27
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lamont B Dumont:
"Millions of cars use dino. That's all they need."

Bingo!


Lamont,what oil is in your vehicles! GROCERY-GETTERS- Synthetic or petroleum.


How do you explain all the talk/use of MMO/ARX,flushes,cleaners,and new oil standards,such as dexos. We have people on these boards as we speak flushing out their engines with various solvents,and detergents,etc. What gives!

https://forums.noria.com/eve/fo...4995/m/625107773/p/1

Explain to us what happened in Europe regarding the black death(sludge) that was epidemic,and also epidemic in America....even with proper OCI's.

Why are so many cars being sold with synthetic in the crankcase brand new. Even the small engines(mowers,etc.) are recommending synthetic.

Why are there now service bulletins mandating to use synthetic oil in some models that originally spec'd mineral oil,because the mineral based oil isn't holding up,no matter how often it's changed or what brand is used!

How many cars are in the junk yard right now with sludge,contrary to what you stated!

How many people have sludge and don't even know it-Yet!

You posted..
"so that when my worn out hulk is towed to the scrap yard, it will have a nice, shiny clean crankcase."

I have been to a few Junkyards over the years,Lamont........Have you? Shiny clean engines........No way!!! Where?


sludge article.....
http://ezinearticles.com/?The-...Oil-Change&id=970590

quoted from above article:

"Aluminum engines with new heat transfer rates combined with hotter internal temperatures for emissions compliance, often overheating oil.

Finer internal tolerances and friction reduction called for lower viscosity motor oils.

These thinner lubricants allowed smaller pores on oil pan uptake screens which tended to clog easily. Front wheel drive compacted entire drive trains in crowded engine bays, where heat from tack-on turbochargers and catalytic converters built up. Cylinder heads evolved with three and four valves per cylinder, variable valve timing, and overhead cams with their associated chains and gears."

End quote-


Lamont,knowing all this,you would put mineral oil in your......"grocery getter",as you call it.

Well I don't know what you drive,however,my vehicles are not...."grocery-getters",as you say.

My vehicles are "paycheck-getters",and money "makers".

My vehicles cost a small fortune,and I am not going to 'cheap out',and install antiquated lubricant in a modern day machine......my high tech engines will be lubed by high tech synthetic oil so as to match the high tech engine technology they are lubricating.

In sum.........if you want your..."grocery getter" towed to the junk yard......... then run mineral oil in the engine! NOT ME! NO THANK YOU!
Last edited by captainkirk
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:

A $32 bottle of goo? Not when what I know works is only $6.27




Yeh sure.......spend $6.27 on (MINERAL)oil that only cost 75 cents...and don't buy the really good oil that lasts 20 times longer,and actually is much,much cheaper in the long run,and can be sent back for 100% credit when so desired. Keep feeding big oil.

Why don't you send some extra money right now to help your friend, "Big Oil"- you love so much........and help poor BP clean up the mess they made with.............DINO OIL!!!
I guess we've been very lucky then. I think poor engine design, like in some Toyota applications, and neglect are the biggest problems with sludge. Running an oil for 50,000 miles, is insane, and stupid, especially in an engine like some of the Toyota engines that are prone to problems by design.

Would Synlube back up a Toyota sludge prone engine that failed with it in the sump for 50,000 miles? LOL We were questioning Amsoil, I don't recall anyone asking about Synlube.

AD
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Trajan:

Even the 2010 Camaro V6 uses dino. If dino oils were bad, no car maker would spec them for engines. No one would buy them.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/...gine+specifications&

All that wonderful engine technology,and then install low tech oil? No,thanks!


Oh,wait............looks like I was right after-all about using synthetic in the V6 Camaro...I knew Gm wouldn't make such a bad choice with motor oil of all things........

//////Engine- (GM recomends using synthetic engine oil)
LS3/L99: 8.0 qts........5W-30 Synthetic Oil(GM uses Mobil 1)
V6: 6.0 qts........5W-30 Synthetic Oil(GM uses Mobil 1)
^^Capacities are WITH replacement of oil filter
LS3/L99 Oil Filter: ACDelco PF48.........K&N HP-1017........Napa Gold 7060
V6: ACDelco PF2129............K&N HP-7003........Napa Gold 7090///////////


http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49508


QUOTES FOR THE NAYSAYERS OF SYNTHETIC OIL.........

"As a past GM tech, I have pulled apart 100k mile engines that were "synthetic since birth" and 100k mile engines that were dino-based users... I believed in synthetic long before I started tearing down motors, but the proof I saw sealed the deal. "
Last edited by captainkirk
And yet.......... no synlube is spec'd by any car maker.

GM 6094M is not the the synthetic oil spec so if your owners manual says that then is came with mineral oil, not synthetic.

GM4718M is General Motors' High Performance engine oil specification. Oils which meet GM4718M tend to be made from synthetic base stocks, so it is often referred to as a "synthetic" specification.

However, not all oils, synthetic or otherwise, are capable of meeting the stringent requirements of GM4718M.
Last edited by trajan
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
And yet.......... no synlube is spec'd by any car maker.



Show me a lawsuit/FTC,ETC,that says not to use it.

Also,show me any-mfg, stipulating.....not-to-use synthetic oil,but to ONLY use MINERAL BASED OILS. SHOW ME THAT ONE!!!!


Never claimed there was a lawsuit that said one could not. What I said was/is the following:

No synlube is spec'd by any carmaker.
Last edited by trajan
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:

Never claimed there was a lawsuit that said one could not. What I said was/is the following:

No synlube is spec'd by any carmaker.



Nor is............ Motul,Amsoil,Royal Purple,Torco,lubro moly,Neo synthetic,Redline,etc,etc.

Yet,these are all very good lubricants....Much better than what the Avg motorist has installed in their engines....


AND YOUR POINT IS....TRAJAN....



OH LOOK,GM ENDORSES WALMART BRAND OIL,AND OTHER OILS BLENDED BY BIG-OIL COMPANIES.............POLITICS AGAIN!!!

http://www.gm.com/corporate/re...oved_engine_oils.pdf


TRAJAN..............KEEP DRINKING THE KOOL-AID........
Last edited by captainkirk
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Kirk:
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
And yet.......... no synlube is spec'd by any car maker.



Show me a lawsuit/FTC,ETC,that says not to use it.

Also,show me any-mfg, stipulating.....not-to-use synthetic oil,but to ONLY use MINERAL BASED OILS. SHOW ME THAT ONE!!!!


And show us that car you claim exists down the street with the engine that was ruined by running Synlube.

We have been waiting months for your proof.

Well?
And he calls us liars!

None of them here can get over the fact that you are successfully running Synlube in your vehicles. They love to mention that it costs $32. per bottle, cenveniently not mentioning that you return it and a new supply is sent to you prepaid and no charge in replacement every 50 000 miles! No other company in the World does that!
quote:
Originally posted by inHaliburton:
And he calls us liars!

None of them here can get over the fact that you are successfully running Synlube in your vehicles. They love to mention that it costs $32. per bottle, cenveniently not mentioning that you return it and a new supply is sent to you prepaid and no charge in replacement every 50 000 miles! No other company in the World does that!


--------------------------------------------

Thanks,inHaliburton.......these guys are old school. One even talks about what his 'Uncle recommends'. My uncles ask me,not the other way around.

I bet these guys are from the same stock that thought 100k platinum spark plugs were impossible,let alone 200k iridium plugs. How about 100k tires and brakes......must have sounded crazy at one time.

What I can't figure out is that none of them get the fact they could just install-drain-refill, just like the stuff they use now(every 5-8k),and send in for 100% credit..thus almost free oil in the long-run,if they are afraid of 50k OCI's.

My prediction for the future is that the automakers will install lifetime oil,and lifetime(over-sized-integrated oil filters) because of all the environmental issues.....give it a few more years! They already are doing it with fuel filters,it's part of the pump module.

The fuel filter-pump module system was only really an issue in the beginning if someone went to fill up at a 'mom-n-pop' gas station with sediment laden fuel. Now days people go 150k with those things,no problem.
Kirk my uncle is someone I respect, who is extremely knowledgeable, and in tune with facts. He's not some shill on a message board, who talks to himself. There are many respectable people here who know the product is a hoax.

When you log 275,000 + miles let us know. I read your threads you haven't come close yet.

I do commend you on your new tactic to shill your product thought, nice approach. Did you get those business issues resolved and establish a business location yet? Or is the business location and mailing address still classified?

AD
I saw lots of anecdotes; if there were data, I must have missed them, though not for lack of looking.

RobertC, I'll agree with you that the 'accuracy window' (what us old lab-rats call 'test precision') is generally pretty tight for bench tests (viscosity, TAN, TBN, ICP, etc.) But an engine test stand is a whole different animal. They are run with, well, engines. So you have to start with the much greater variability that comes with using a commercial engine as your 'instrument'. Then you have to multiply that variability by that of the bench test used to evaluate the end-of-test oil. The reason bench test variability is so tight is because they well-controlled, highly isolated simulations of mechanical phenomena. Engine tests tend to sprawl.

I base my opinions on 35 years in laboratories located in various corners of the lube business. These have included analytical testing, product development, release testing and field tech service. But in the absence of that, I'd take the advice of an uncle over a fast-talking sales guy who stands to make a (potentially excessive) profit on my decision.

The notion that buying a synthetic from a compounder-blender is somehow sticking it to 'Big Oil' is the second funniest thing I've heard today, right behind the Korean techno-pop singer doing to Japanese roach-spray commercial. Where to you think those compounder-blenders get their molecules (and often their formulations)? The PAOs are probably coming from ExxonMobil, or some other major with excess capacity. Mineral base oils also probably from ExxonMobil, maybe Shell? (Who has surplus these days?) Addiitves will come from Lubrizol, Ethyl (no mom & pop shops, those), Oronite (Chevron), Infineum (ExxonMobil - Shell), or a few other players that may look small until you figure out who owns them.
quote:
Originally


I base my opinions on 35 years in laboratories located in various corners of the lube business. These have included analytical testing, product development, release testing and field tech service. But in the absence of that, I'd take the advice of an uncle over a fast-talking sales guy who stands to make a (potentially excessive) profit on my decision.

The notion that buying a synthetic from a compounder-blender is somehow sticking it to 'Big Oil' is the second funniest thing I've heard today, right behind the Korean techno-pop singer doing to Japanese roach-spray commercial. Where to you think those compounder-blenders get their molecules (and often their formulations)? The PAOs are probably coming from ExxonMobil, or some other major with excess capacity. Mineral base oils also probably from ExxonMobil, maybe Shell? (Who has surplus these days?) Addiitves will come from Lubrizol, Ethyl (no mom & pop shops, those), Oronite (Chevron), Infineum (ExxonMobil - Shell), or a few other players that may look small until you figure out who owns them.


I'll also read through threads like this and take advise from someone like Mr. Dumont who obviously knows what he's talking about, then someone with a clear sales agenda.

AD
Lamont, I have the greatest respect for you and your ilk. Your knowledge is first-rate and few can question what you post. Similarly, I respect Capt. Kirk who is using a contraversial product. All he is doiing is giving us his personal experience with said product, and his opinions on sludge formation. I also agree with his vision of the future, which could have been yesteryear if it could have been more profitable for big oil than the usual 5- to 8-thousand kilometer oil change intervals we enjoy up here in the Great White North. When that era arrives, we can expect to pay much more for permanant oils to make up for the lack of OCIs on new vehicles. I can recall when cars were assembled without grease nipples and at the time I was positive that it would mean big problems for my car. Of course, I have yet to experience such a problem.
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:

I'll also read through threads like this and take advise from someone like Mr. Dumont who obviously knows what he's talking about, then someone with a clear sales agenda.

AD

I do not believe that Capt. Kirk has a sales agenda. He has no relationship with Synlube except as a customer. Like Kirk, I could care less whether anyone purchases Synlube or not.
quote:
Originally posted by inHaliburton:

I do not believe that Capt. Kirk has a sales agenda. He has no relationship with Synlube except as a customer. Like Kirk, I could care less whether anyone purchases Synlube or not.


Well then three of us agree on something! That is not caring who uses it. I don't care who uses it either. But you'll never find it in anything I own.
I will agree with that. If Kirk uses Syn-Lube and has good luck with it, hey, no problem. I prefer a good name brand oil that is API certified. I have a hard time buying products from a vehicle trunk (the old speaker scam comes to mind). I really would not have a hard time with S-L-4_life, if the website was not from 1996. Anyone with a little computer knowledge can make a decent site with DreamWeaver and cold fusion.

I prefer a quality oil that I can find on the shelf.

Dave
quote:
Originally posted by ADFD1:
quote:
Originally posted by inHaliburton:

I do not believe that Capt. Kirk has a sales agenda. He has no relationship with Synlube except as a customer. Like Kirk, I could care less whether anyone purchases Synlube or not.


Well then three of us agree on something! That is not caring who uses it. I don't care who uses it either. But you'll never find it in anything I own.


Fails to explain why he spent so much bandwidth defending the product and attacking any and all who question it though.

Or why he's afraid to use it despite such a defense.

Or why this kirk person spends so much time pushing it.
quote:
Originally posted by Trajan:
[QUOTE]
And verifiable, third party tests.


If your certified oils are so good, why do you find it necessary to use that black ARX gunk.

BTW, I used that stuff on my first Focus at about 200 000 km. Had to dig the stuff out of the bottle because it had gone solid just like sludge. Either my engine was pristine, or that stuff did not do as advertised because I noticed no difference whatsoever, except my bank account was somewhat lighter...

I still have 2 bottles. Anyone want them
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